I know that fruition is a very hard thing to be sure about, and can appear somewhat like other things. That being said, I am 100% sure I have experienced it.

My question is, does it have the same qualities as it does the first time.

I feel like it could have happened more times but that I have missed it somehow.

The reason I am asking is, I have largely stop sitting meditation. The last time I had a session that went over 30 minutes, was over 3 years ago. 

Before this, what has now become a very long brake. I did a one month retreat, of 16 hours a day, sitting and walking meditation. After it was over...I just don't feel the need to do it anymore. Noting just seems to happen on its own....everything feels clam. I just feel, for a lack of better words, a normal human.

Thoughs?

When I first experienced fruition it had a noisy haze running through it like static. I didn't know at the time that it was fruition until I had another A&P event and the same sequence of events occurred including fruition. I noticed then that I appeared to be going through cycles. After more A&P's and subsequently the same pattern of events the fruitions these days are cleaner, sharper and noticeable. So, for me, it always came with a nothingness quality but becoming evermore contrasting over time. In March this year I spent around five hours in a fruition and, in true mind style, mind came back very, very distressed! 

I think you come to know from watching the regular patterns of events that your experiences are fruition events and, really, that's what this is about - accessing your own internal resources from which a more authentic direction can be acquired. This isn't to say that we can't get direction from other people, just don't hang all your baubles on their descriptions (including mine!) 

You're possibly stuck somewhere and need to figure out how to unstick yourself which might include meditating some more. Some other guys on here would perhaps have a more suitable reply in that respect. If I was to have a stab in the dark I might push at being stuck in Equanimity as sometimes it can mirror the description you give.

I am sorry Bardo, I mean this with all the respect in the world. I think we might be talking about two different things. It's possible I am using the wrong word. 

This "fruition" is like complete and utter nothingness, lacking anything that could be use to discribe it. As if awereness can not enter it.
And it didn't last very long...I can't be sure because it also lacks time. Maybe half a second, just a guess though.

It seems we're aligning in the same direction. No apology needed. What I'm saying is that, for me, the defining characteristic of a fruition is the sense of there being nothing, precisely nothing - no centre, edges, time or space. This is a fruition as I understand from my experience but even the word 'nothing' is just a figure of speech. Once you get a sense of this you can incline your mind towards that notion of nothingness.

...and yes, they can come and go very quickly like this.

Ok...so if this WAS a legitimate fruition (not claming). Then it would likely put me at SE, and this could explain why its feels like I am at the end?

And would explain why, as far as I can tell and remember, I have only seen this fruition once.

After a fruition there can arise a sense of 'done-ness' or that something has been brought to a conclusion in some way. I found it often came with a deep calm and peace. This is usually a prelude to another cycle. That has been the course of things for me. Sometimes this sense of done-ness can hang around for a long time.

If you wanted to kickstart the cycle again then maybe start meditating and see what happens.

Well what do I do now. I have made it this far mostly on my own. It feels like I could just live my life, leave the maps, this board, never sit again and would feel just fine and happy. The mind doesn't trouble me anymore, what else could be undone?

It requires effort to maintain that state, but it's possible. The glow will dissipate after some time though. Naturally, eating will also bring down your vibrancy. It should be obvious that spirituality is the process of deconstructing social conditioning and societal inculcation. Under that, you should be seeing through the subjective phenomena of the ego and the crystalized idea of an identity, uncovering your true nature underneath all the walls of prejudice the mind has built up. You may stop if you wish, these integral level of self-insight can't be easily forgotten. The transmuting experiences don't alone make you a better person and your tools are all the same, you just know how to apply them better hopefully.

But what's the point of continuing then? If your practise is a form of self-help then you made it; in terms of transcending the self and personal growth. Though as long as you're in this particular experience, you will have to gauge the spectrum of human emotions. Good luck getting that in order within this lifetime. 
I honestly regard Fruition as allowing the individual to finally step up to the starting line  as for a lot of others, the point is to get over the mind, past their survival instincts and just be simply a life or reconnection with all that is. If one deepens their meditation they are pushing against millions of years of evolutionary conditioning. Proprioception is broken down... time is unfurled, thoughts become fleeting experiences... Our brain operates in cyclical patterns in order to create the allusion of the mind, and it seems you were able to brush this as well. When you unify with pure consciousness, you'll enter a sort of flow state.  Another aspect of the mind is inertia, so the longer you go without practice, the harder it is to re-center.

If you move past the brain, there is residual karma that can be worked with. There's energetic stuff to play with. The rabbit hole always goes deeper. You can learn about quantum mechanics through experiencing that field  decide how you want to go on your death bed

I think that's more of a personal question for you to consider. If you find the mind doesn't trouble you that's great. If this has been your state for several years even better. I'm not sure how to help you with your confusion about this. 

May I ask... What brings you here? Most people who come here are seeking something, or that is at least my impression. Maybe you have a hunch that there is something more? Or a hope? I hope this doesn’t come off as rude. That is not my intention at all. You don’t have to justify being here. I’m just thinking that maybe a gentle investigation of what brings you here might guide you in uncovering what remains to be done.

Nice to hear that you are happy.

*Just waking up for work*

Thank you guys for taking the time respond. I am going to think over this question "why am I here at this message board" even though the answer seems obvious to me in this moment. 

I will get back to you after work. 

After what I am assuming to be SE, I spent almost 8 months feeling like things were good. I had solved the Big Problem that had plagued me for my whole life, and I felt like I could die in peace. I knew meditation would uncover more insights, but I felt like it was totally optional. Then, I did a 10-day retreat, and things started to become really difficult. I joined this forum about 10 months after that point, trying to figure out how to fix the problems meditation had caused for me. The way I look at it now, my post-SE mindset was liberating (and 1000x better than how most people see the world), but actually rather...simplistic.

I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't done the retreat.

I thought it over as I was working today. "Why am I here". It began really just hoping someone could tell me what this strange event that started this crazy adventure was. I feel like what you call the A&P event is very accurate.

I finished Daniel's book MTCT and thought that this other strange event I experienced, seemed to mirror what he discribed as fruition. I don't think anyone could say for sure, but this also seems accurate.

I would like to continue to work out where I might be with the maps. Any help would be appreciated. 

Any tests I can try out?

I haven't had a new insight for quite some time, but one came to me the other day as I was working. I would like to share it with you.

*** Not claming this means anything, take it just as it is***

(mind talking to itself)

Mind1: Isn't this awareness so amazingly bright?

Mind2: It is!, truly incredible.

Mind1: You know....there is something even more incredible.

Mind2: Really?? Whats that.

Mind1: The ignorance that blinds us from the truth of seeing things as they really are.

*a smile grows on my face*

Mind2: Wow, what a magic tirck that is. How could this even be possible.

Seems like your intuition is pushing through here. It does this and sometimes in quirky ways. My intuition is a bit of a stern monk. When I have attained something it always comes in with "keep going" or "there's more to do" or "this is not it!".

Consciousness is the magic trick and when you see beyond consciousness that's it!

"Now suppose that a magician or magician's apprentice were to display a magic trick at a major intersection, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a magic trick? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any consciousness that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in consciousness?"

- The Buddha


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html

I will brake this insight down as I see it.


Mind1: Isn't this awareness so amazingly bright?
(Awareness is the ground/foundation for all perceivable phenomena to be known or could be known, hence "bright")

Mind2: It is!, truly incredible.

Mind1: You know....there is something even more incredible.
(Something that obscures this all encompassing awareness)

Mind2: Really?? Whats that.

Mind1: The ignorance that blinds us from the truth of seeing things as they really are.
( ignorance is identification)
*a smile grows on my face*

Mind2: Wow, what a magic tirck that is. How could this even be possible.
( This tiny thing somehow gets in the way of seeing the only thing there is to see)

It reads as if there is more for you to realise. When you read it back to yourself what do you see? Go there, incline the mind in that direction and find out. 

I will be happy to look, but could you be a bit more clear. What part of what I said doesn't match truth? Point more directly at it. Awareness? Identification? The fact that one seems small and the other large?

Is defining awareness as "the ground/foundation" also not a form of identification?

Yes in a way it is. To even call it awareness is identifying it. But words and language suck, and are all we have to communicate on a message board. Using words like the ground/foundation, is just a way of pointing at something that can't be pointed at. Do you agree?

Earlier in my practise awareness became very obvious in a way it hadn't been previously. Mind went from identifying with the self, and latched onto awareness as something special instead. Eventually I found that doing so caused the same sort of suffering that identifying with the self did, for the same reasons. Of course it then looked for something else to identify with.

It reminds me of a kid I saw in a store the other day, bugging his mom to buy him a snack. Every time she said no he would pick up a different chocolate bar or bag of chips and ask again, and again she would say no. This repeated multiple times, as if the answer would change if he just kept choosing new things. It didn't.

In what way do you view awareness now vs then? And can you remember what it was that changed that veiw point?

I don't want to speak for Lars here...so just speaking for myself:

I used to view awareness as being like a video camera, capturing some percentage of what's going on "out there". Now, I view awareness more as being simply whatever I'm aware of, regardless of what's actually going on "out there" (more like objects in a video game, I guess).

Sounds about right. I used to think awareness was seperate from the object of awareness, and I objectified it as some sort of thing (and identified with it). Now it often feels like there is awarenss of sensations without any effort, and no here/there relationship. In a post a while ago I described it as the difference between a microphone listening to an object 20 feet away versus the microphone being IN the object, but that's still not the best analogy. 

As to how that changed, I noticed that i'd begun identifying with awareness but the 3C's are pretty clear on that sort of thing so I investigated awareness. Where is it? If it comes from over here to look at something over there, where is it right now? How can awareness be aware of awareness? After asking questions like this for a while one day while drinking a coffee and looking out a window I noticed something outside and it felt like awareness was pushing from where I was towards that object outside, but suddenly that pushing sensation abruptly stopped, like it hit the glass in front of me (and yet I was still aware of the object). After that it started feeling silly that awareness was some object that moved around, it was clear that it occurs without effort, right where it is.

I feel like I understand what you guys are saying. I'll type something up in more detail when I get home from work. Work on a weekend...boooo, Overtime...YAY!

Yeah, that's it! It's like pushing.

I thought of this analogy this morning:

Like, you're tied up in a chair in the middle of a room, facing away from the door. You hear someone come into the room, and you try to turn around to see who it is, but you can't, because you're tied up. You can view this as either:

(a) you are partially aware of someone in the room, but your awareness is somehow being obscured by the ropes that secure you to the chair (awareness is imperfect)

(b) you are fully and completely aware of the sound of footsteps, the thought that someone must be in the room, the feeling of the rope, the urge to try to turn around, your fear of what might happen next, etc. (awareness is perfect)

If you go with (a), you're going to get pretty frustrated, and it's going to hurt a lot more.

In my, still growing, understanding, I think of awareness as being a bit like time. That is to say awareness is to objects as time is to space. It doesn’t really exist as a separate thing, it is simply the “field-of-play” where objects/events take place, at least from an experiential standpoint. Maybe there’s more to it, but that’s what it looks like to me.

The first bit of insight is properly poetic, I like how you mingle awareness with being bright  I think what your intuition alludes to is the awareness seemingly being aware of itself. That brings into question; what is behind the phenomenon? It is true that identification is ignorance. That is why attachment to such concepts is loosened so we can further investigate! Did your meditation end there...?
So you plan to see through this trick of the mind, using the mind? That is possible  but more than likely you'll be sent into loops. 
The "mind" and "consciousness" are separate associations. The mind is a fabrication of the brain. A consequence of several cognitive apparatus working to create the illusion. The brain is not generating consciousness. Consciousness is the pure essence of all things in this creation. We are all made up of things that are happening. Awareness is just the collective attention on a particular space. The brain is akin to a lightning rod in a sense, that millions of years of evolution have designed up in order to sustain life. Awareness can be moved from the body to the space around. It can be concentrated in parts of the body or projected. It can be manipulated or it can accidentally be shifted. But the framework of the brain does a very good constant job of keeping the awareness rooted in the physical, that's the point. Awareness is always returning to the collective body. But every one of your cells is exhibiting consciousness. 

Wow, so many great comments. I will try to address them all tonight. It's been a long week, so I apologize if I don't come off very clear.

So to start out, Daniel's book MTCT has an amazing chapter (10) about awareness. I don't want to parrot what he says so I will try to give another example not used by him. Also what it was like for me when I saw the differents between the two types of identification at the level of awareness. 

Daniel talks about "oneness" and "emptiness" as being two sides of the same coin. Neither are wrong, but not entirely right either. When using the 3C's (anicca,dukkha,anatta or impermanent,suffering,not self) and applying them to the right veiw of awareness, they do not stand up. The only "thing" that can't be touched by the 3C's. Look into it for yourself, don't just believe me.

But you need the right veiw of awareness first for this to work. I'll give an example of this as promised.

There was a game we played in school called "The Game". The only rule was, if you think about the game you lose. So someone would walk up to you and say something like "Hey Mike, you just lost The Game". As soon as you become aware of awareness, you lose the real awareness, and everything that is not this experience of real awareness is not the true you. This is the right veiw of awareness on the level of "emptiness". Empty of self yet pure awareness.

The right view of awareness on the level of "oneness", is to see that without awareness an experience of any kind would be impossible.
The first time I saw it from this veiw point was when on retreat. I was walking down a hill headed to the meditation hall. I noticed the sound of gravel under my feet with each step, the sound was very crisp and clear, and that with each step the sound would come into my field of awareness and then leave. The sound seemed to be "inside" this awareness of it.  Another time it was very clear, while sitting at a window looking out at a tree blowing in the wind, the leafs moved, I couldn't hear or feel the wind so I wasn't aware of the wind other than the movement I was seeing. It became just movement in awareness and not labled as wind (try this for yourself) . All things are made out of it, return to it and experienced "inside" awareness.

"REAL" Right veiw of awarenss is both,neither and not both and neither "oneness" and "emptiness", so the 3C's can't touch "it". So because the 3C's can't brake it down, this is what some call "True Self". Therefore using the 3c's will remove our delusions, reveals True Self and then are no longer subject to suffering beacuse of them.

Though a lot of suffering can come from searching for it. But this is the only way it can be.

Keep working at it, you can't hide from yourself forever. And you get to enjoy this huge cosmic joke at the end.

Thank you, your very kind. I like to write and talk about this kind of stuff.
I don't fully understand, which phenomenon are we talking about?

You don't want to throw out the baby out with the bath water. Just convincing yourself there isn't a problem doesn't make it go away. You need some level of attachment to the idea that there is a way out of this problem, and a desire to find it.
Using mind is all you have to fix the "problem" It's the only tool. You can't punch yourself in the face and fix it. Loops happen, and is why its important to work on concentration meditation. Concentration helps to not get lost in the mind and its storys, with strong consentration you can "slow" things down and pick apart one aspect using the 3C's (impermanence,unsatisfactoriness and not self). 

You mentioned Daniel's book, I was reading through his section on "The Nothing To Do, You Are Already There" schools, and noticed this:

"The idea that people already are something begs the question: what are they? These views tend to imply that they are already something such as perfect, enlightened, realized, awakened, or even worse, that they are awareness itself, cosmic consciousness, the atman, an aspect of the divine, etc., none of which can be found."

Yeah, this train of thought implies that you don't need to do anything and if you just see that, it will make suffering stop. Go ahead and do nothing about it, see for yourself if suffering is still there.

Ultimately there is truth in that, but you must work through your identification with a self.

My point is that you appear to be identifying with awareness, which is like leaping out of the boiling pot, and into the fire. Doing that is no better than identifying with the self (and is really just a variation of the previous form of selfing). If i'm incorrect about that presumption, I apologize.

My apologies. I hadn't given the mind dialogue you shared the correct level of attention. Having now done so, and from the additions you've included, I see clearer the scope of its lovely delivery.

I have what I think are the infantile stages of this kind of awareness developing. The place where I usually localize myself (body and mind) often disappears and there is a sense that I cannot positionally find a refuge or a point of origin for the 'me' character 'out there' so to speak. It's almost as if I'm everywhere and everything all at once. It rained the other day while I was out walking and all I could intuit was "wow, look! I'm raining everywhere! That's wonderful!" I could easily say I am something like awareness - it certainly appears that way but I have trained myself not to form such views as they cultivate perceptions leading to further cycles of consciousness. I recall the Buddha remaining silent on such matters but it's often fun and eye-opening to read other peoples descriptions of this sort of expansive awareness. Some formless realms can mirror this effect too so there is much in the way of pitfalls. 

No need to apologize, your pointing it out because you care. Thank you for caring friend.

I agree 100%. I was attempting to point out the different bettween awareness of "oneness" and "emptiness". It's helpful to see them and the differents between them. 
Dont get hung up on this "True Self" I am talking about. Its a big tangled mess. It's not a thing and its not nothing. So its a state of not identifying with either and not identifying with itself. There is no good way to put it into words.  This isn't directed at you Lars (as in, you don't know this,let me teach you something), just anyone reading this and trying to make since of the ramblings of a mad man who has completely lost his mind. 

Thank you for giving it a second chance, and I'm glad you like it. It came up uninvied, but I am happy it did. I felt it was worthy of sharing and perhaps just a moment of contemplation.

Fair enough, I thought you were veering too far into "it's a thing" territory, but nihilism isn't it either. Middle path, yadda yadda.

No worries!  Words fail on an epic level when trying to talk about this topic.

I thought I was helping to correct an assumption you'd made, and it turns out you may have been the one pointing out a mistake. I previously made some statements in my practise log about awareness (relating to its arising) that now seems incorrect. Something to investigate, thanks!

Somewhere around minute 58 I start talking about Cessations. If you want to talk person to person, let me know.

The sense of wanting to progress vs feeling satisfied changes like the seasons, and what happens in practice is that, if the motivation to practice isn't arising, we generally don't practice, and, should it show up again, we very well might again, so all there is to do is roll with it and see what happens.

You are most welcome friend. Please let me know what you find out, i'm very interested. Post it here if you like, or in your log, i'll keep an eye out.

I'll email you tonight.

Essentially your comments got me thinking about awareness in terms of the three characteristics again, which caused me to take another look at impermanence etc. What I found was that there were a whole lot of persistent "things" inferred in my concepts of impermanence and suffering etc. Exploring that further I realized that literally everything I believe depends on the inferred permanence of things (including the concept of impermanence). I'd already realized this about the self, and awareness, and had assumed it to be true of everything else, but it feels like I just realized the rabbit hole is much deeper than I thought. From that perspective even "things" like impermanence, the dharma, mind, reality, arising and passing away, gaps, ignorance, enlightenment, birth and death etc don't exist in a persistent way, there is only THIS (it's a cliche but it works). It's not that they're negated, but they're not supported either. A single thought inferring a persistent thing allows the proliferation of "every-thing". Without that inference everything collapses like a house of cards and there is only THIS. Every so called thing depends on every other thing to "exist", though from a vipassana perspective they never really existed in a persistent or truly identifiable way.

This all reads like a first year philosophy student smoking too much weed "duuude, reality doesn't even really exist, maaaaan", but it just feels like I was making everything far too complicated previously lol. That said i'm sure the so called onion has a few layers remaining. My apologies for far too many air quotes. 

Very interesting, what's stopping you from staying with just THIS?

I'm curious: why would anyone want to stop?

Stop what?

I meant stay. I interpreted your comment about staying as stopping meditation. Did I misunderstand?

You did misunderstand what I was asking, but its ok I still love you.  I wasn't advising Lars to stop meditating. Just to ask the mind a question "What's stopping you from staying here in this place of "Just This".

Ah. That makes much more sense. And oh, you're so sweet. 

Where is this place and who is it that stays there?

That said, reasonable question and I won't claim to have an answer to it.  

Conversations like this, where we all point out the duality in each other's language, make me giggle because they remind me of that Monty Python sketch where they try to trump each other in telling their childhood stories, until someone lives in a shoe box on the motorway with ridiculously many siblings who were all forced to work 25 hours per day. 

Magic! 

I make the assumption that you live in the United Kingdom (based on the use of the word 'motorway' and the Monty Python reference.) My observation skills for these things are quite poor though. The world is big and round.

Nah, I live in Sweden (which is pretty close, though), but Monty Python and similar absurd English humor is very popular in Sweden. That sketch is great, but honestly I often find them a bit too over the top which makes me feel a bit awkward. I do love absurd humor but I prefer it a bit more subtle and less about people behaving in embarrassing ways. 

You're not wrong lol. I was thinking the other day that this was turning into one of those eternalism versus annihilationism debates that have plagued buddhism since the beginning. Talked about it with a friend last night and gave it some more consideration. Seems like i'm being as clingy to states as I was saying Michial was being to awareness. I'm much better now, really.   ;)

I grew up watching Monty Python as well, absurdist humor is great. "And now for something completely different" cutting away to John Cleese sitting at a desk in the ocean still makes me giggle.

You should go look up Monty Python argument clinic skit, one of my favs.

Plus its very fitting to this thread .

I wasn't trying to argue with anyone. I think maybe my "Very interesting, what's stopping you from staying with just THIS?" comment struck a wrong cord. Reading it again myself, it feels very cold and arrogant. The intention behind it was ment to encourage more investigation into and around that great insight you had. I apologize.

It didn't come off as arrogant or cold at all. In this particular thread it was Lars's respons that made me giggle, and only because it reminded me of a pattern that is very common at this forum. I think it is very often the limitations of the language that makes us all do this at one time or another, and I find it kind of funny. Sorry if my remark made you question your own tone. It was nothing wrong with your tone. I should have been more clear about what made me giggle.

Ok good, I just know tone is hard to express. That makes me feel better.

Can you tell me more about what you mean by states and a bit of your experience with them?

First off, I agree with Polly that your question was totally valid and constructive.

As far as states go, I as i've mentioned in this thread it's common to identify with things like the self, awareness etc. Similarly i've noticed a tendency to cling to states. I've experienced many of the common states that can occur after meditating for a while including the I AM, merging with objects or sensations, "pure presence", meditation meditating itself, chakra openings, kundalini, or even just new jhanas as they present themselves. After each of these there's a tendency to get attached to it for a while as if it's special, even though deep down I know that no state or experience the answer. Thankfully it usually doesn't take too long before I recognize that i'm missing the point yet again.

And before you ask lol, the point is that it's about the process of perception, not the content.

Beginning to wonder if I should to let go of this idea. Focusing on the process has been very useful, but the more I practise the more it feels like the content and the process are "not two", like faces of a coin. Getting lost in content isn't useful, but being aversive or dismissive of it doesn't feel right either.

Yes. Good call - we have to deal with both, and they are not separate and distinct.

This question was better than I thought. It infers that there is entering and exiting (and one who enters and exits), but it's always been just THIS. Even "falling out of it" is a sensation that occurs effortlessly and without one who falls.

If the adage "he who knows doesn't say, he who says doesn't know" is true, I apparently don't know shit. I haven't posted this much in months. Thanks for the questions. 

Bingo, that's what I was pointing to. Love and peace brother.
Also, I didn't do a damn thing.

This interaction, on the other hand, made me smile. 

Don't be to hard on yourself, it doesn't do you any good. Though, when its all said and done, you'll know less then you think you do now.

The whole thing is really just two steps. One step forward into the unknown (what you really are). The second step is backwards into being. The window will open and close many times. At some point it can and will stay open. It just takes radical honesty and radical acceptance.

A hermit was meditating by a river when a young man interrupted him. "Master, I wish to become your disciple," said the man. "Why?" replied the hermit. The young man thought for a moment. "Because I want to find truth."

The master jumped up, grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, dragged him into the river, and plunged his head under water. After holding him there for a minute, with him kicking and struggling to free himself, the master finally pulled him up out of the river. The young man coughed up water and gasped to get his breath. When he eventually quieted down, the master spoke. "Tell me, what did you want most of all when you were under water."

"Air!" answered the man.

"Very well," said the master. "Go home and come back to me when you want truth as much as you just wanted air."

I tend towards self deprecating humor, it was only half serious, but I take your point.

It already feels like i'm falling in and out of it (so to speak) more than previously. Someone here mentioned a while back that they feel like they're in freefall, and this feels something like that. Like i'm falling backwards from a huge height, but there's no fear of landing. If anything the sensation is nice when I accept it. Had an interesting experience last night in bed where I noticed the sensation of a boundary between my face and the pillow. Over a few seconds that apparent boundary dissolved and there was just this bubbling blissful fluxing in the space where sensations of face and pillow had been. It didn't feel like my face, or a pillow, it was quite pleasant. I also keep giggling at various sensations, and seeing a flock of birds and falling leaves seemed wondrous today when I went on a walk.

Feels like something that will work itself out, and yeah it feels like acceptance is key, I couldn't fight this if I tried (or wanted to). There's also an amusing sense of surprise, like I have no idea how this suddenly revealed itself. 

Thanks for the help everyone, much metta.

This choice of story is somewhat prescient. I've mentioned some medical issues previously, but I hadn't given an update because it didn't seem relevant at the time. I've been on chemo for the last 3 months (they just doubled the dose this month and switched from pills to injections) and my friends started noticing I was wheezing a couple months ago. I've done multiple pulmonary function tests, a methacholine challenge test, had a mechanical arm pushed down my throat to take biopsies of my lung tissue, etc etc. Medical appointments every three days on average.

So.... "air!" made me giggle a little. There may not be a literal zen master at my throat, but close enough. 

Ouch, that's tough. Very best wishes both for your wellbeing and your practice. May you have both truth and air.

I appreciate the kind words, but it's taught me a lot so it's all good. When going through some of this stuff it's very obvious that aversion (including bypassing) just makes things a million times worse, and acceptance makes the unbearable bearable. Acceptance also makes it easier for those who care about you to deal with the situation (and seems to rub off on them somewhat). It's almost like they feel they need permission from me to be ok with it, like they're supposed to react with panic and aversion until I tell them it's alright.

You also learn pretty quickly who your friends really are. Fair weather friends disappear, the real ones stick around. 

Very true. 

Wow, you just made the nada sound louder again. Thanks! 

Sounds like your working with it instead of against it. There's something quite profound about sickness, old age and death and in some conventionally peculiar way, this profundity seems accented with a fair measure of hilarity. I don't for a minute suggest that this may be the case with you, but with myself, I look in awe at the wonder of the body, its sheer depth of complexity, and its ability to perform in the physical universe in the ways it does, and then comes to an end. There's a great love there too. Within the creations of forms, the abiding of forms, and their dispersing lies some sort of love, profundity and hilarity all jumbled together like putty or plasticine. Even during the abiding phase forms are, at best, flimsy.

This really came from a place beyond forms if I'm entirely honest. It's as if forms are the jollies of suchness; the expressions of its curiosity to somehow know itself as just that, the irony being that it is cognitively incomprehensible.

Back to the conventional world, there are things we still have to do in the human form and one of those things is dying. It's perhaps the most important task. If it arrives abruptly there will be another chance. I don't have a particular fear about death. Those kinds of fears give impetus to the stream of consciousness. If you've read the Bardo Thodol, it's an interesting read but one needs to traverse the odd symbolic abstractions. This guy paints the Bardo Thodol into a quantum field and does so with simplicity and elegance if you like that sort of thing.

I listened to the Bardo Thodol as an audio book twice because I found it interesting, but I decided to forget all about it because if I were to believe in it it would scare the crap out of me, which would, according to it, be very conterproductive. If I did and it turned out to be true, I would probably be reborn as a rabid cockroach or something, whereas if it were true and I didn’t believe in it I would perhaps at least be reborn as a happy mallard in a cute little pond.

I want to share one of my favorite books with everyone, give it a listen. There is something here that speaks right to the heart. I hope you find it as helpful as I do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpFOIiX-lVg&t=9431s

This is good. Thank you for sharing. 

I have read those. I liked them. They found me when I needed them the most, a little more than a decade ago. I wasn't aware that they exist as free audio books. Thanks for sharing!

Any particular practises you can recommend at this point? I've mostly been going on walks and just resting in the recognition that I don't need to do anything to see, hear, think, walk etc. Then I notice when distraction or cognition "close the window", and how it feels when it opens again. I'm also playing with integrating it with activity, seeing if I can maintain clarity and effortlessness even while doing things that require thinking and discriminating. I get that it's always effortless in actuality, but there's still the sensation of coming and going out of a state.

When the window feels closed it's interesting to see the mind attempting to allow this thought, or suppress that one, as if I could do either. One one level I feel like i'm going crazy, on another it feels like i'm becoming more sane lol.

I wish I could say "yes, and here is what you do next". The truth is, I don't know. You will know what to do though. If it feels like things are happing by themselfs, I would say just let it happen. Go on walks, sleep in, watch a movie, do what you do. Keep a gentile mindfulness on whats going on, watch the noting happen. When its there and when its not (open or closed). At some point it will become clearer and clearer what identification is left to deal with.

This is just from my experience, I am not saying this must be the way it will happen for you.

I made a very strong effort to get enlighted for 5 years. Sitting, walking, reading everything I could get my hands on about meditation. After a very intense month long retreat and almost going to burma to ordain, I kind of gave up. Everything felt much better then it was before I started all of this craziness. I was ok with the way things had turned out. I felt I could live with this mind, even though It would get upset about how things were sometimes. I would say 90% of the time I was happy and peaceful with life.

I left it alone for 3 years, just letting the automattic seeing of the mind and its content happen. The more time went on, the louder this feeling of "this doesn't feel right, somethings just off" grew. At some point I couldn't ignore it anymore, it was driving me crazy and had to investigate what it was.

I couldn't tell what it was so I started from the beginning and investigated carefuly. I did this multiple times but always came up with nothing, the feeling was still there. A few weeks ago at work I was running the investigation again, and again came up with the same conclusion. I had nothing left so I investigted the conclusion my mind kept comming to. I don't think it would be helpful to go into what happened, but something changed in a big way.

It took about a week for things to settle into this new stage. Is it really over with, is it done? I have no idea, that nagging feeling is gone. All I can do is wait and see if something comes up. It's felt like it was over so many times that I wont make any definitive statement. Could this have been going from 2nd path to 3rd...could be. I am just going to let it ride for a few years or until I can see a point of suffering.

Its been a month so far and this new "thing" hasn't changed or wavered even a tiny bit.

Lol apparently there's still the idea that it can be or needs to be maintained. Old habits die hard.

Thanks for the response, it does seem like it will just work itself out. I went through a doldrums period as well recently, still practising but loosely and with much less efforting and grasping after progress. The grasping is flaring up a little again but seems to be tempered by the recognition of effortlessness. Every shift seems to present some new "thing" to investigate, and effortlessness seems to be it this time. Seems much less stressful than some of the previous ones (though of course that can change at any time lol).

I used to have that feeling all too often. I had kind of forgotten about it. Wow. 

What does it feel like for you both? I used to have a nagging "something's off" feeling that would come and go, sometimes reaching a peak where it almost felt like panic. It was never a problem, it was more confusing than anything. A little while ago it presented itself again and when I investigated, it went from more of an emotional thing to actual pain. It felt like a ball of physical pain and tension that solidified or waned depending on how much I concentrated on it. "Letting go" actually made it worse, like I was exerting effort to let go instead of really relaxing. Haven't felt it since in that way.

Well, it varied from apathy through vague anxiety to fullblown panic. Often nauseating. Sometimes like burning sensations of the neck. Sometimes an unwillingness of the body to move. Dissociation. Messed-up heartbeat sometimes. Dizziness. Tensions around the heart. Pain sensations on the skin. Stuff like that.

Yeah I have really nothing I can add to what Linda said. At points it felt like the mind had seen a freshly dead body.

Hi Michial, not sure if I've experienced SE but will give my take.

Some effects: the review cycles were very intense.  Sensation is more intense than before but easier to deal with even when it's painful.  I seem to feel bored way less frequently, there's always lots going on in the sense field and this is endlessly interesting.  I still get cranky and act like an asshole when I'm tired or in lots of pain.  There's something different about the relationship to the self which feels good, I care a lot less about lots of stuff while experiencing things more vividly.  Sitting meditation feels sort of effortless and the mind is just like 'oh it's vipassana time, gogo.'Maybe that's what they mean by "gently inclining."

Feeling that you're done post SE is definitely a thing, in Practical Insight Meditation Mahasi says (pp38) "In some cases, meditators who have attained the path and fruit feel relieved of a great burden, free and easy, and do not wish to go on contemplating.  Their object, the attainment of the path and fruit, has been achieved and their hearts' contentment is understandable."

Makes sense to me.  Trying to go full 4th path seems kind of obviously like something that isn't for everyone.  A pervasive feeling of calm and feeling done seems like a very good reason to go hang out with your family and do human things.

Very true Ben. What your saying is very much how it feels right now. 2rd or 3rd path might be a gross over estimation. I am very new to the maps and i'm still working out where I could be.

Thanks for sharing this with me.