Dealing with automaticity while noting - Discussion
Dealing with automaticity while noting
John Smith, modificado hace 2 años at 25/02/22 1:59
Created 2 años ago at 25/02/22 1:59
Dealing with automaticity while noting
Mensajes: 9 Fecha de incorporación: 21/02/22 Mensajes recientes
Hi,
I'm noting pleasant/unpleasant/neutral with everything I notice. I use fingers to note, pretending to move them (left index fingers is the 'pleasant' label, right index finger -- 'unpleasant' and both small fingers -- 'neutral'), this sends an energy current through them and this symbolizes a note. This eliminates the need for verbalization. I had some initial success with it, mind was becoming silent every sit. It was such a great relief not to experience the usual noise.
Unfortunately I noticed the same problem as in my concentration practice. Most of my notes are automatic now, I can feel the current in my fingers even when I'm not meditating. I suspect my brain is optimizing my practice not to spend too much resources on it and creating neural pathways that fire on autopilot. Sounds good initially, but it isn't, I feel dullness increases and more time is spent 'offline' like a zombie. The silencing effect is also gone, that's my main issue.
Any ideas how to deal with that? Maybe switch to more detailed noting?
I'm noting pleasant/unpleasant/neutral with everything I notice. I use fingers to note, pretending to move them (left index fingers is the 'pleasant' label, right index finger -- 'unpleasant' and both small fingers -- 'neutral'), this sends an energy current through them and this symbolizes a note. This eliminates the need for verbalization. I had some initial success with it, mind was becoming silent every sit. It was such a great relief not to experience the usual noise.
Unfortunately I noticed the same problem as in my concentration practice. Most of my notes are automatic now, I can feel the current in my fingers even when I'm not meditating. I suspect my brain is optimizing my practice not to spend too much resources on it and creating neural pathways that fire on autopilot. Sounds good initially, but it isn't, I feel dullness increases and more time is spent 'offline' like a zombie. The silencing effect is also gone, that's my main issue.
Any ideas how to deal with that? Maybe switch to more detailed noting?
George S, modificado hace 2 años at 25/02/22 4:17
Created 2 años ago at 25/02/22 4:14
RE: Dealing with automaticity while noting
Mensajes: 2722 Fecha de incorporación: 26/02/19 Mensajes recientes
If you keep noting 'automatic', 'dullness', 'offline', 'zombie' or 'noisy' then these states should pass. If not, then you should investigate dullness more actively - what are its constituent physical sensations and associated thoughts? Break it down and apply the three characteristics relentslessly. Read Mahasi Sayadaw's Pracrical Insight Meditation (attached) for precise noting instructions if you haven't already.
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George S, modificado hace 2 años at 25/02/22 10:04
Created 2 años ago at 25/02/22 9:48
RE: Dealing with automaticity while noting
Mensajes: 2722 Fecha de incorporación: 26/02/19 Mensajes recientes
Also, pleasant/unpleasant/neutral is vedana link in dependent origination, which is more about analyzing how clinging/resistance/ignoring leads to creation of mental states ("rebirth"). It's an excellent exercise, but it's more advanced than simple noting where you just note the dukkha (unsatisfactory) characteristic of all phenomena - the fact that you can't prevent pleasant ones from passing and unpleasant ones from arising. The goal of simple noting is to reach equanimity (no longer clinging to/resisting pleasant/unpleasant sensations) which is a kind of absence of mental rebirth, whence path fruition can arise (first path etc., a moment of mental synchronization). The goal of analyzing dependent origination is to see how one’s entire mental experience both on and off the cushion is fabricated by clinging/resistance, which becomes important during latter paths to prepare the mind for lasting synchronization.
John Smith, modificado hace 2 años at 25/02/22 13:18
Created 2 años ago at 25/02/22 13:18
RE: Dealing with automaticity while noting
Mensajes: 9 Fecha de incorporación: 21/02/22 Mensajes recientes
Thank you George.
The initial issue I had was lack of recognition of the problematic states.
I added more labels like 'stuck', 'forgetting', 'analyzing' and found that I'm entagled in analyzing thinking with thinking. I started to detail thinking as about past, present or future and the the problem resolved itself, no more meta-stuckness
Dependent origination is way over my head now.
The issue I face now is that verbalization can put me in a trance of sorts, but I can recognize it. I will try to do more structured noting with my finger trick.
The initial issue I had was lack of recognition of the problematic states.
I added more labels like 'stuck', 'forgetting', 'analyzing' and found that I'm entagled in analyzing thinking with thinking. I started to detail thinking as about past, present or future and the the problem resolved itself, no more meta-stuckness
Dependent origination is way over my head now.
The issue I face now is that verbalization can put me in a trance of sorts, but I can recognize it. I will try to do more structured noting with my finger trick.
George S, modificado hace 2 años at 25/02/22 15:34
Created 2 años ago at 25/02/22 15:34
RE: Dealing with automaticity while noting
Mensajes: 2722 Fecha de incorporación: 26/02/19 Mensajes recientes
Simple labels work best - thinking, feeling, seeing, hearing. If you just keep noting 'thinking, thinking, thinking, ...' then the mind pretty quickly loses interest in thoughts! Again, Mahasi is highly recommended.
George S, modificado hace 2 años at 25/02/22 15:36
Created 2 años ago at 25/02/22 15:36
RE: Dealing with automaticity while noting
Mensajes: 2722 Fecha de incorporación: 26/02/19 Mensajes recientes
But yes subdivisions like 'remembering' and 'planning' can be helpful, although you have to be careful not to proliferate your labels too much that you just end up thinking again!
John Smith, modificado hace 2 años at 4/04/22 12:53
Created 2 años ago at 4/04/22 12:53
RE: Dealing with automaticity while noting
Mensajes: 9 Fecha de incorporación: 21/02/22 Mensajes recientes
I assume at certain stage noting will turn into non-verbal process? This seems like a bottleneck in my practice.
Dream Walker, modificado hace 2 años at 4/04/22 13:11
Created 2 años ago at 4/04/22 13:11
RE: Dealing with automaticity while noting
Mensajes: 1770 Fecha de incorporación: 18/01/12 Mensajes recientesJohn Smith:
I assume at certain stage noting will turn into non-verbal process? This seems like a bottleneck in my practice.
There are two steps to "noting"
1) Noticing a sensation
2) Labelling it
Step 2 is optional, labelling is training wheels for when you need it. If you can stay on task just noticing things, you will increase the effectiveness of the meditation. The labelling is just a hack to keep you from wandering off, when you don't need it stop labelling.
Seeing, Hearing, Feeling, Thinking.....If this get automatic and you start wandering then add Internal and external labels....seeing in\out etc.
Remember to investigate anything that is permanent, seems to be you, and satisfies. Stay on those sensations till they dissolve into emptiness.
Good luck,
~D