I stumbled into this technique and am trying to figure out its traditional name. Its a combination of mindfulness and concentration, primarily focused on a class on mental phenomena similar to feelings.

The object of meditation is the rough texture of the present consciousness. You sit down, look at the mind in an expansive way, and find the primary axis of vibration. Initially for me this is typically some kind of agitation.

You focus and dwell on this texture for a while as it gains in intensity and then "pops" into a new texture. When agitation pops, this leads to strong feelings of one-pointed bliss originating from the center of the mind. When bliss pops this turns into spaciousness and lucidity. At this point I usually get the urge to stop meditation and return to daily life, though when I've continued it turns into near total emptiness, with little to no perceptions, thoughts, or sense of self.

I am calling these textures, but you could also call them energies or something else. Many of the states I've encountered don't line up with conceptual labels and would be classified as "neutral" flows or patterns of mental energy. However different starting points reliably lead to concentration and bliss.

In the initial stages, the level of absorption is low and there are still physical sensations and thoughts but those don't seem to get in the way as long as I am mindful of the overal texture of the experience and treat them as impersonal and connected to this overall pattern.

Anyone heard of a practice similar to this?

im thinking its similarly like what i do & many others: meditating on the 3 characteristics of existence: impermanence, non-self, dukkha

The texture or strarting point is often dukkha, like you describe.. then impermanence.. then lastly, non-self, like you describe "Neutral" mental energies, (usually this order for me.)

Thanks, that is interesting and even encouraging.

I definitely wasn't thinking in terms of the three characteristics, but I can see that now.

Its easy to see the suffering and the non-self characteristics here, though I guess I have some unorthodox ideas about impermanence that is coloring those.

In my view impermanence is a good thing -- its a sign that computation is occurring and the algorithm of the universe is proceeding as it should. In the mental realm, it can feel like bottled up mental processes are being released.

So while there is bubbling about, it feels good, even in the suffering/agitation there is a redeeming quality that makes it strangely pleasant if you can see through it. Perhaps this is what they call equanimity?

Its hard to observe the impermanence directly, probably since my concentration is not that strong, and I am also solidifying the feeling of "something is happening" rather than observing each little sensation.

Will continue to investigate.

Are you using an insight-heavy style of meditation to get here? Clearly your concentration is strong, but it doesn't quite sound to me like you're doing totally pure concentration meditation without any insight at all. I think Kenneth Folk's description of the "strata of the mind" might help you out here. It sounds like you're moving up into some jhana territory perhaps even some formless realm stuff, though I don't have the relevant experience to tell for certain what's going on.

I don't do noting, but the overall flavor is mindfulness. I need mindfulness to locate and stay with the phenomena being investigated. Its not like the breath, where I basically know where to look every time I want to go back to it.

If I am having trouble locating and fixating, I'll return to the breath as primary focus. Deepening focus on the breath will make it easier to find the mental texture. In fact movements of the the breath can be used to amplify it until it is strong enough to become an object on its own.

I've wondered if some of the more extreme experiences qualify as jhana territory, but its been difficult to reproduce them. The thing that tends to break the state is thoughts like "does this feel good enough yet" or the sensation of a separate watcher, and since those states were so pleasurable I've been getting to that trap.

Haven't dived into Folk's stuff, but will check it out!

From your description of the experience this sounds like jhana. One can be absorbed in many different objects. breath, visual objects, mantra, and even feelings like loving-kindness are all described as objects for concentration practice and jhana. Mindfulness is definitely a part of concentration practice. It is mindfulness that notices when the mind is distracted and reminds you to turn back towards the object. When the Buddha describes Right Concentration, he includes Right Mindfulness as a requirement for Right Concentration. So just because you're not using the breath as an object, or because you are actively being mindful, does not mean this isn't a form of concentration practice and jhana.

You might want to check out Daniel's description of the different jhanas. he describes experiences with visual objects and mantras in chapter 21 of MCTB. See how those descriptions fit in with the different "pops" you describe and the different states you experience.

HTH,
Eran.

Thanks for your input. Ill take another look at MCTB.

There are a lot of similarities there, but differences as well.

One of the core questions here is, how to differentiate beween jhana and non-jhana states? For example, take bliss. Is it possible to have very strong bliss experiences without being in jhana? What about boundless space and boundless consciousness?

What about being in a absorbed state with basically little to no thought or sense of self?

The books say that there are an "endless" variety of possible states and experiences, and they also say there is both hard and soft jhana, so how does one distinguish between soft jhana and what I describe?

I could be wrong, but I don't think I even have access concentration, have not experienced the learning sign and counterpart sign etc.

Pay attention to the description of the shifts from one jhana to the next and the differences between them. I think that would be the most helpful for you.




You could try reading about the jhana factors (directed thought, sustained thought, rapture, happiness and single pointedness of mind) and then see if those factors exist in your own experience. However, keep in mind that the topic is actually more complicated than just those 5 factors and different teachers define jhana differently making it hard to nail down exactly what is and isn't jhana.

It is quite possible to experience bliss and/or rapture outside of jhana state. Bliss can be brought about by calming and stilling the mind and so can be experienced on the way to jhana. MCTB says it's also common to experience bliss during A&P events. I don't really know about boundless space and consciousness.



When the mind is still, it can be much easier to see phenomenon (including thoughts) simply arising and passing away with very little attachment. This can give one insight into no-self.



I believe the usual distinction between hard and soft jhana is the level of absorption. In hard jhana (usually taught by teachers who follow the Visuddhimagga) there is no discursive thought, no awareness of the body, etc.. In soft jhana (taught by those who follow the suttas' description of jhana) there can be some thought, there is some awareness of body and phenomenon outside of the object. It is actually possible to do some insight work (3 characteristics style) while in soft jhana. This would not be possible in hard jhana and insight practice is left for after exiting jhana.



Access concentration is another tricky subject. I've seen several different definitions that don't quite agree with each other. As for the Nimitta (counterpart sign), I've learned that most people do not actually experience a visual Nimitta when doing breath meditation so it quite possible that you would achieve deep concentration without experiencing a light. Check out this article: http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/nimitta.html it could be helpful to you.

I just took another look at your initial post and I would hazard a guess that somewhere inside "You focus and dwell on this texture for a while as it gains in intensity and then "pops" into a new texture." are hiding both your learning sign and counterpart sign.

If I may ask, what is your goal with this practice?

Thanks for the input, that is enlightening, as it were.

The question about goals is a good one. I've been learning about buddhism after initially encountering meditation in the context of "theraputic" practices like self-hypnosis and guided meditation.

I am fairly sold on vipassana in principle, but all this talk of how "bad" the side effects are scare me off of trying to do this right now, since now is a particularly bad time to experience an existential breakdown. So I want to learn more concentration practices since those are actually helpful right now, as well as the basics of insight for future reference.

I won't speak to the potential "bad" side effects of insight practice as I do not think I can that from experience. As far as concentration practice goes, if you'd like to explore that more I can suggest a couple of resources:

1. The Experience of Samadhi by Richard Shankman is great for comprehensive coverage of jhana from many different perspectives. In the first half, he goes in depth into the sources and explores the two main approaches to samadhi in Theravadan buddhism. In the second half he includes interviews with several teachers about their approaches in teaching jhana and integrating it into practice.

2. Try finding the most recent talks by Ajahn Brahm about topics like jhana, stillness, samadhi, etc. (I looked for the talks from his 2009 retreats but it looks like they're still offline)

It sounds to me like you are focusing on the negative qualities of the 3rd jhana perspective, and using it to boost into 4th jhana. Neat trick. I used it for a while. Describe the state and how it feels in more detail. What kind of attentional width does it have? Have you finished any paths? Where would you place yourself in your current path?

Hello everyone,

After more study I'm pretty sure these are jhanas. The mind is concentrated on its own concentration, the hinderances are subdued, the five factors are present.

I guess the surprising thing is that this can be achieved without mastery of basic concentration on an external object. Typically I can't stay with the breath for more than a few minutes.

My going theory is that that a more expansive awareness can integrate distractive urges into the flow of consciousness, thus relieving them of their ability to distract. For example, you can experience the basic urge to think, and though half-baked thoughts will fall out of it you won't identify with them.

To use a metaphor, it feels as though the point of concentration is at the center of these flowing forces, balancing and mediating them.

The hard part is getting enveloping awareness of your inner state, though I would say its easier than attaining extreme concentration on an external object. For me, giving more attention to the body and relaxing a bit opens things up. Its somewhat surprising to me that relaxation techniques are not emphasized more.

For those keeping track I haven't attained any path. Can't remember any a&p event, though thats not to say it hasn't happened.

this is a going theory that can take you far in insight practice, particularly if you keep attending to the textures of your experience (including the textures that present in what you have called 'near total emptiness, with little to no perceptions, thoughts, or sense of self').



once the point of concentration which is felt at the centre of these flowing forces steadies them, these forces take upon an equilibrium of their own, right?

and if so, does your attention then naturally shift into, as you may be indicating below, an enveloping awareness of sorts?

if so, can you see how the equilibrium you attained in relation to those flowing forces (or in their relationship with each other) may, likewise, be attained with regard to this enveloping awareness?

but as this enveloping awareness has no centre, equilibrium here cannot be attained by using a centre point as a guiding (and stabilising) principle. and as this enveloping awareness, having no centre, also lacks a periphery, it cannot be encompassed (and guided from beyond it) either. what makes sense then is to see the way in which all of your attention and all of the flowing forces all flow together, and thus to see the enveloping awareness for what it is in its entirety.




i had to cultivate the emphasis on opening up the body myself, as i was not told to do this in any of the formal instruction i received.. at one point, it just seemed like the right way to go.

tarin

Yes, yes, and yes.

With regards to the final state you describe, I've had the following experience a dozen or so times:

Once I attain deep relaxation and sufficient awareness to deflect discursive thought, I've sometimes been able to let go *completely* of the urge to control experience, including any effort at concentration or awareness or attempts at registering what is happening. The result is a pretty intense and seemingly chaotic mess of vibrations and textures, quite opposite to the calm of concentration. Often there is a physical sensation of falling. The intensity of the swirl typically makes me pop out after a few moments to a few minutes. My interpretation is that this is the raw experience of the unconscious mind.

It is by far the most restful state I've experienced. It is as if the urge to control experience is this horribly overworked muscle that is getting a moments rest.

Is this related to what you are talking about? Also, is it possible to stabilize the state?

Thanks for your input.

Yes there is a name for this technique and I practiced it briefly some years ago as a very curious teen before finding about insight practices. The method is used to consciously induce an out-of-body experience. In this link there is a step by step guide
http://www.esolibris.com/articles/astral_projection/astral_projection_techniques.php

Daniel writes this on his essay The Arising and Passing Away, Some Tales from the Path: My first time crossing it was around age 15. I was and still am a big fan of flying dreams, and so quite without instruction or guidance, I decided that I would practice flying before going to sleep so as to maximize the chances of me having them[...]
I noticed that the delay, the constant effort, the arising and vanishing of the images, and some other strained aspect of the process were strangely irritating. In short, I realized the first three stages of insight practice, but had no idea that these were stock, standard, expected, predictable, and had been mapped by some traditions for over 2,500 years, nor did I know what to expect next.

So the step 4, namely entering the state of vibration is A&P event, 2nd jhana? Then it must be followd by the dark night. KB do you feel like hardcore dark nighter?

Hi April,

Thats some good info and an interesting question.

I've never read up on Astral Projection before, but its pretty clear that's something I used to do before taking up Buddhism. Its a little different from what I describe above though. In the Astral Projection Mode, I would focus on relaxation (as they describe) and cultivate/move around the feelings of tingling in the body. Once I was sufficiently relaxed I could easily create all kinds of visualizations of leaving the body.

In the current practice, I rarely give enough attention to the body to generate that strong tingling sensation, and if it happens I don't try to move it around. Perhaps this is a hangup, but its based on the principle of trying to observe your reality rather than manufacturing it. I'm rethinking this now.

I've definitely wondered if some of my non-buddhist meditation experiences qualify as A&P, and also if I am a dark night yogi. Its pretty hard to distinguish between the dark night and regular depression, anxiety and general personality tendencies. Severe anxiety is why I took up meditation in the first place. Its been almost 10 years since the astral projection experiences. I was also playing around with self-hypnosis. At some point I stumbled into a taste of no-self and figured it was the thing to go for, but then got frustrated with how hard it was to reproduce and then basically shelved the whole enterprise for years and took up smoking lots of pot instead.

So, certainly not inconsistent, but no smoking gun in my mind. I tend to think dark night yogi is overdiagnosed (basically its impossible to disprove, and thinking you are in DN probably encourages practice), but then again I know very little.

you're welcome.

to be clear, the final state i described is by no means meant to be the final, on-going state of contemplative practice.. however, there is one aspect of it which you indicated which can be thought of that way (and ever-increasingly so), and that is the aspect of restfulness (stressless-ness).

by penetrating deeper into experience absent of the urge to control experience, you are likely to reveal further (increasingly subtle and deeply-rooted) instances of that same urge to control, of which you had previously been unaware (as urges can conceal each other - usually it is the more coarse ones which conceal those which are more refined).

cultivating the investigation into experience (including the experience of the urge when it seems relevant) will result in deeper penetration still, and by 'deeper' here i don't mean deep like in the depth of an ocean (which is directional), but deep like in the suffusion of an ocean (which is qualitative). to this end, the physical sensation of falling you describe is worth looking more closely at.

so, if you find yourself 'popped out' of that restfulness... well, pop back in.

one more thing: the way to attenuate the urge to control experience is to examine it clearly and sincerely... and the way to end it (and thereby stress) completely is to examine it clearly and sincerely at its very root (where it becomes clear what urge - and not merely the urge to control experience - really is).

let me know if this is helpful.

tarin

Haven't been able to get into these states lately but wanted to note a realization concerning my original questions.

Was watching http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4055078/A+Guided+Tour+to+13+Jhanas today and it became quite clear to me that I've been able to get up to the 7th jhana.

The sense of dwelling in the witness, somehow associated with a centerpoint in the head (6th jhana), then followed by the experience of emptiness (which I had been calling no-self), and possibly dropping all the way down to neither perception nor nonperception, which I had been calling profound no-self.

I wonder now if the dropping away feeling is the onset of boundless space.

When I first started doing all this stuff it just seemed so random and I was pretty concerned with "should i be doing it this way or that way" that i never noticed some of the intermediate stages in between getting calm and then getting calm enough to pause the self process.

I think that the notion that jhanas pause the self process deserves some more careful investigation.

If there is any sense of observer at all, however subtle, that is perceiving the jhana, however rarified, then this has not been done. I will claim that it is insight practice, not concentration's temporary modes, that deal most directly with the illusion of a self, though there are some interesting lessons to be learned from concentration.