Forum: Practical Dharma

I originally sent the following to Karma Kenneth :-) and at his suggestion, I am putting this out there for discussion at large because it seems to be an area whose importance is often overlooked:

"... I was just listening to the second of the Hurricane Ranch conversations and was intrigued by your references to the way various levels and paths line up and depend on penetration and integration of the chakras.

Someday, when you have time, I'd love to see you expand on this idea and perhaps offer some ideas on how one might integrate it into their practice.

I know next to nothing about chakras, but in my own experience, when I started noticing the manifestations discussed in the "spasms while meditating" thread, the first thought I had was, "this is energy", and then I began to notice that the energy was manifesting in specific places in my body.

I had read a little about chakras before and it prompted me to search for a map of their locations. Low and behold, the physical manifestations seem to be localized in three particular areas coresponding to several of them:

The root chakra (where it feels like strong sensations of energy are being discharged from my body - almost feels like the recoil from a high-powered rifle); the heart chakra (where I feel pressure and discomfort in the upper chest area) and in the throat chakra (where it feels like the negative or uncomfortable sensations in the heart center are moving up into the throat, through the rear portion of the roof of my mouth in to the head).

So, what experiences have you had in working with chakras, and how did you incorporate them into you practice? Did it help? Is it important and helpful to discuss?

Just had an interesting realization - in addition to the above, I noticed a sensation of what I would imagine a minor earthquake would feel like. Actually, I've felt this for several days - and because there is some heavy construction going on not to far from me I assumed it was some vibration caused by heavy equipment.

On closer inspection, it turns out they seem to be projecting upward from what I would guess to be the upper side of the root chakra (whereas the energy discharge described in my original post was leaving the body from the bottom of the chakra).

If anyone has experience with anything like this, I'm all ears.

Thanks,

John

This is going to vary widely from individual to individual, but I'll share my perspective in the hopes that it may be of some minor use.

I always treat energetic phenomena as the "effect side" of cause and effect. So if I notice energy in the crown chakra acting up wildly, I may take that as a good sign to keep doing whatever I was doing. Directly working with the energy itself has never helped my practice at all; or at least I am not aware of it.

There are many practices out there that work directly with energy, but I personally feel that approach is a much more difficult route toward realization than the alternatives. It cannot get much more simple than "feel the end of a vibration," and so if realization is ultimately your goal, Ockham's razor is generally a good guideline for pragmatic practice.

That said, it's all empty, causal and impermanent, so whatever is good for you is good for you!

Author: GhostLLP

This is an interesting point, but I'm not so sure. For example, walking may certainly be more simple than driving a vehicle, but that doesn't mean it's the best way to get across the country. Or maybe a better analogy would be a snow filled driveway. The simplest thing to do is nothing at all, and sure, it will eventually melt away. However it is much faster to just shovel it out.

In much the same way that one should not neglect their physical body on their spiritual path, I also think the energy body should not be neglected.

The energy body does not need to be neglected, but I feel focusing on it is unnecessary for realization.

Enlightenment is all about seeing this very moment just as it is, so using a technique that directly points to reality just as it is (such as noting) is the most direct path in this context. To tweak your analogy a bit: Using energy work to get realized seems like shoveling drive-way snow with hedge clippers. Though if you are very passionate about working with energy, but not passionate about a technique like noting, you're probably better off with the energy work. Heart seems to go a long way, so to each their own!

Entering actual insight territory (mind and body/cause and effect) made me believe that there is something to this chakra thing. For instance, I used to chuckle at the notion that chakras may spin clockwise or counterclockwise (something that I heard mainly from yoga teachers back when I used to go to yoga classes occasionally). But here is how that seems to manifest itself for me:

During what (I think was) knowledge of cause and effect, I perceive an alternation between localized body feelings (say, at the chest) on the one hand, and "subtle" (mind?) feelings that are also localized but felt to be ethereal, surrounding the physical in a way. So there's this alternation: chest, subtle, chest, subtle, click click click. And what I noticed is that each "chest" click of the alternation occurred at a location slightly different from the previous "chest" click. So the chest feelings were discrete and also slowly moving frame by frame, and the overall movement was distinctly rotational, as if they were making their way around an axis perpendicular to my chest.

A similar clicks-slowly-rotating feeling has been present in other areas, like the top of my head. After these experiences, I have gained more respect for the notion of chakras and how they're often described.

As to chakras having "color" (e.g., the blah chakra is blue and it spins clockwise, the blonk chakra is red and it spins counterclockwise, as my yoga teacher used to mumble), I have no idea... It seems to suggest a kind of synaesthesia that I haven't experienced.

yeah, I didn't notice colors, etc. What got my attention originally was listening to Hurricane2 and Kenneth's comments about having to penetrate and integrate the chakras at each level. Then later, they talk about when the circuit is complete, the energy leaves the body at the crown chakra, bends around, and re-enters the body at the heart chakra.

I just found it facinating - especially as it seems to correspond somewhat to my recent experiences while sitting.

Thanks for the input,

John

Yeah, I also found Kenneth's comments very intriguing. I am personally taking it as permission to make those subtle/"energetic" feelings into first class objects of investigation. Not that I was consciously pushing them out before, but my skeptic leanings have made me ignore some obvious things time and time again.

Oh, and I forgot to add: I've also experienced stuff similar to what you describe. For instance, "energy" going upwards through the spine, through the throat area and into the back and top of the head.

I totally agree with this statement, as far as practice for "getting it done". When I cut my practice back to essentially just investigating the 3 Characteristics in whatever was arising, I accomplished more in 3 months (including stream entry) than I did in 5 years of combining a vipassana path that was pretty obsessive about maps and stages while trying to develop energy awareness and other weird things. There is no "apples to apples" comparison here with lots of different life factors, but if you are going for realization, keep it simple and separate out the content.

I would agree with this. Probably 3characteristics straight up is the most direct approach but there will be more detail to take note of one way or the other as you progress. That is my experience. So whatever returns you to that simplicity, be it a focused pursuit of some particular kind of understanding of a phenomena or simply allowing the insights to arrive when and however. Some kind of map and technique will make for a smoother ride in some ways but it will be somewhat of a side trip off of the main highway to the destination. It seems this is largely a question of individual makeup and inclinations and maybe to some extent accessibility or opportunity.

Author: marinr

These are my observations, but I'm not sure if they are widely applicable:

A&P event - energy in the crown chakra, 'physical senses' feel different, start of formations
equanimity start - central channel starts to circulate energy
high equanimity - crown chakra opens up and connects to formations 'out there'

It helped to have marks for knowing where I am.

Hi John,

I suppose I am a bit biased as my own practice (through second path) consisted entirely of energy work (meditative chi gong practices). I am a strong believer in them and I think they could be an important part of anyone's practice.

You can take a body-oriented approach, a mind-oriented approach, or any mix of these. As triplethink points out, it will depend on your “inclinations and maybe to some extent accessibility or opportunity”.

The fact that many traditions (not only Buddhist) have employed techniques from both suggests that both have value and assist each other. Beyond second path, I don't think there is much difference anyway. Personally, I found the body-oriented approach to be quite enjoyable. If you have a sense of curiosity and fascination with these energies then it might be a good approach for you.

I suggest not just working with the chakras but rather working with the energy body as a whole (the chakras just being one part of a greater system).

For the big picture and some good exercises, a good book is 'Touching Enlightenment – Finding Realization in the Body' -by Regie Ray (Vajrayana tradition). He includes an Appendix on body work techniques which are very good, simple exercises. I highly recommend this book (and thanks to the Buddhist Geeks for interviewing him).

Another source is Robert Bruce's 'New Energy Ways' (which has been mentioned in several places here):
(http://www.xehupatl.com/download_files/freebooks/Robert_Bruce-New_Energy_Ways_1.pdf)
This is a good intro to energy work but you won't find it placed in the context of awakening.

-Chuck

Energy is a huge topic, but here are a few thoughts.

People tend to be the most interested in energy around the early ñanas, particularly Three Characteristics (3C), and the Arising and Passing Away (A&P). In 3C people tend to feel that there is something wrong, like energy is blocked, there are strange tensions, movements, pains, and the like.

In the A&P, people tend to be the most fascinated with chakras, powers, visions, energy channels and the like of any place in the cycle of insight. It is extremely common to feel energy, kundalini phenomena, perceive things like charkas, sometimes with colors, spinning, images, nadis (channels), and to even be able to manipulate these, clean them out, move them around, and play with them. Some will just have a few big zaps while others may have a longer relationship with these aspects, depending on interests and tendencies.

I actually spent a lot of my practice at the vibratory level, which is very similar and related to the energy level, and could be argued are the same thing. However, when I have really turned my mind to the charka end of things, all sorts of things have showed up, though rarely fitting with someone's idealized vision of this color at that level with this many petals, etc.

Those with stronger concentration skills who pay more attention to the energy channels and centers will have an easier time seeing them. Further, paying attention to them can definitely cause very pronounced mood and physical effects as well as more powers related phenomena. Initially things may get worse rather than better, but at times one can come out of playing with energy in some wonderful physical and mental modes of being, with increased balance, both physical and mental.

As to Kenneth's descriptions of chakra, path and circuit correlations, he has spent more time investigating that particular aspect than I have, and more data points would help.

i agree, thats what i naturally do too. kinda like how in a video game, pressing the x button repeatedly really really fast causes my character to do really intricate things, just by paying simple intense and inclusive attention the way i do can cause vibrations and energy to move around on its own. given this, the energy body seems to know what to do on its own, so this, i feel, is enough attention to that matter.

that said, on retreat, when i was deep in 4th jhana territory with a strong tendency to chance into all manner of vibrations (multiple cycles - i have an appreciation for the concept of samsara and the tibetan thing about bardos now), i heavily noticed the arbitrariness of taking something to be either cause or effect, and it made me just want to just screw getting caught up in the vibrations and i resolved to find and stay with no-dog.

For good visual representations of what the energy system in the body/mind looks like, check out:

alexgrey.com

click on paintings/sacred mirrors/sacred mirrors/launch non-flash viewer

Then look at Psychic Energy System, Spiritual Energy System, and especially Universal Mind Lattice.

If your concentration is strong and you gently wave your attention from side to side across your body, you can "see" these energy flows. You may notice that there are places where the energy seems blocked, or doesn't flow smoothly. Those blockages go away with enlightenment. In fact, the complete circuit of energy, as represented in Universal Mind Lattice, IS enlightenment by my definition.

That's not to say that it has to look exactly like the drawing. In my experience, the energy lines are not seen as clearly as what you see in the paintings. It's more like they are felt by some extra sense. Also, I usually don't experience them as having color. Maybe other people do. But they are so delicate that the merest touch of attention can move them (or give them color), which is why it would be hard to give them a definitive appearance.

I found an informative page on the chakras, http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/secondary.html

The author calls the energy centers in the etheric body the secondary chakras, explaining thus:

"In occult, spiritual, and New Age literature the secondary chakras are almost always confused with the Primary Major Chakras. This confusion is due to the imperfect state of esoteric knowledge at the moment (equivalent to science in the 16th or 17th century). In fact the two types of chakra are quite distinct and easily distinguished."

When you scroll down, there's a table stating the differences between the two and a link to a page with the different kinds of chakras (primary, tan tien, secondary, minor).

I just realized that I neglected to thank all of you for your input -- too busy these days!

But as always, you've given lots of helpful information and it is greatly appreciated. I'm still looking into this subject to see if there is someway of harnessing any of this energy ito compliment/enhance my vipassana practice.

It seems inordinate to not mention that the Buddhist Vajrayana - both Tibetan and Japanese - has a host of teachings and very elaborate practices making ample use of chakra, nadi, bindu, and prana. Three, four, five, or seven chakras, and many methods to work with each model. You may want to check on this essay for intro on different ways of using the body by Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche. Hope you find it helpful.

LINK: http://bit.ly/15VD4

Something else to notice about what Kenneth describes and Alex Grey depicts is that these energy lines surround the body forming a sphere. Once you reach the practice point where you can feel this sphere, you are "inhabiting" (becoming aware of) your greater energetic form. This "energy body" seems to be composed of very fine lines, like the field of force around a magnet.

It's like in the elementary school science experiment where you place a bar magnet on a table, put a piece of paper over it, and sprinkle the paper with iron filings. Those filings arrange themselves along the magnetic field lines that arc between the north and south poles of the magnet.

There's more to say about this. I'll do so by replying to what some other people have already written.

This is a really important phenomenon, one that is not often discussed. It is called the "amrita nadi" or "nerve of immortality." When blocked, it is uncomfortable. Amrita nadi was described by a few Enlightened people, including Ramana Maharshi (as quoted below from: http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/articles/news_self_enquiry.htm )

Devotee. - I have done. But one doubt more.

Maharshi. - What is it?

D. - You said ‘Heart’ is the one centre for the ego-self, for the Real Self, for the Lord, for all ...

M. - Yes, the Heart is the centre of the Real. But the ego is impermanent. Like everything else it is supported by the Heart centre. But the character of the ego is a link between spirit and matter; it is a knot (granthi), the knot of radical ignorance in which one is steeped. This granthi is there in the ‘Hrit’, the Heart. When this knot is cut asunder by proper means you find that this is the Self’s centre.

D. - You said there is a passage from this centre to Sahasrara.

M. - Yes. It is closed in the man in bondage; in the man in whom the ego-knot, the Hridayagranthi, is cut asunder, a force-current called Amrita Nadi rises and goes up to the Sahasrara, the crown of the head.

D. - Is this the Sushumna?

M. - No. This is the passage of liberation (Moksha.) This is called Atmanadi, Brahmanadi or Amrita Nadi. This is the Nadi that is referred to in the Upanishads. When this passage is open, you have no moha, no ignorance. You know the Truth even when you talk, think or do anything, dealing with men and things.

I didn't really notice this energy until it made it's way up in to the Third Eye chakra after getting 2nd Path. Recently, after another opening of sorts (I don't know if I could call it a Path, per se, or if it even matters) the energy has moved higher up in to my head, where it remains for most of the day. The only time it seems to clear up is after fruition, but not for long. It actually gives me a headache sometimes, which is really annoying. I guess it's just one of the joys of the spiritual life.

Is this something I can expect to pass through with the attainment of more Paths?

Jackson,

I can only speak of my own experience, but I felt similar. From first until sometime after third, there was more and more energetic pressure building "under" the crown (behind third eye?) It gave me headaches a lot, especially headaches that felt like sinus headaches. I don't recall when it actually stopped being that way, but that pressure is usually absent now. Sort of reminds me of a river building up behind a dam; once the energy breaks through the dam once, it is free to be released outward (in at least a trickle that prevents the build-up).

Hey Trent,

Yeah, that's exactly what it feels like. It's like there's a geyser shooting up through the chakras but getting stopped up at the crown. I'll have to report back if and when it finally breaks through.

Jackson

No doubt Alex Grey's work is impressive. I think that all of the evidence about this energy aspect of the mind/body is pretty compelling. That a lot of that evidence does not conform to any specific pattern but many variable layered patterns of expression demonstrates it's mutability and to some extent both the nonconformity and the conformity of that evidence. I worked more directly with this 'energy' for fifteen years before applying myself more fully to dharma/dhamma and I haven't been with anyone who works with it as skillfully in a more traditional buddhist way. I hope I can get more focused on that eventually but it seems to be something that real mastery of takes a very long lifetime to take to a very advanced level. That is my experience of it. All the great masters of this kind that I know of are both very, very old and in other ways very, very young. They are astonishingly skilled healers. The staff at UofS hospital studied my teacher regularly as he could train practitioners to cure themselves of things like MS. Pretty friggin' amazing actually. I met one of them, he told me, "last year, before I met sifu, I couldn't have lifted this cup of tea to my lips". I could speculate, because I am very naive about Mahayana, that the healing potential of this energy would have been one significant impetus for the Bodhisattva vision of Mahayana. As I understand the Theravada Vinaya one could not practice healing arts with the same kind of liberty. I can see wisdom in this as well but there can be a measure of compassion that is a condition of being that has a measure of meaningful significance well beyond the wisdom of all but a level of mastery equivalent to a Buddha (whatever that is like). So, I think some of us need to acknowledge that need to 'be compassionate' to whatever extent it meaningfully persists. I'm more drawn to 'harmless' as a priority and 'beneficial' secondly.

Here is a trick I learned. The relief is temporary but it helped me through this phase. Place the palm of your hand close to your forehead and slowly (over maybe 5 seconds) sweep it down the front of your body down to the navel center. Do this repeatedly - each time directing some of the energy down into the navel center and leave it there. This technique should start opening up the front passage some so that it becomes less of a problem over time. Just sitting placing your attention at the navel center can also help.

That sounds like the correct advice. Even after many years I don't feel I should teach anything about this. Sifu would not approve of teaching that he didn't authorize just as any authentic lineage holder would and I did not spend sufficient years with him for him to sanction me to teach or advise about any of this. He is one person that is very disturbed by teachers that are not sanctioned by those that are not authorized by his or another very old hierarchical lineage. I respect his perspective on that regardless of what I may have accomplished with it or regardless of any insights I have verified or developed on my own since. People were continually so impressed by what they could learn from him in a year that they would run off to market it without any further consultation with him. He expected a minimum of seven years of attention to study with him pretty much every single day, the whole time and his sense of your mastery to be satisfied before he would sanction anyone as a teacher. That seemed entirely reasonable to me based on what he taught me over about three years with him. I've asked him about it since because sometimes people want me to teach them things that I obviously know and even so he has suggested that I spend at least a year more 'assisting him first' which seems entirely fair. Even though he is probably 110 now, I pretty sure he could still beat me up and he is one person that I would not want to upset.

Hi triplethink:
I share your concern and respect your position. In my own case, my teacher gave me permission to teach certain things and not others and I have respected those wishes. I hope that teachers like yours are able to transfer their knowledge to new generations successfully.

Some of these teachings when taken out of context (and working with a good teacher may be the context) can really mess with a person. I am sure you are aware that the horse is already out of the barn. Many of these practices are out there freely available with little context or directions on how they should be used. So what do we do? Do we provide context and directions? Do we remain silent and let what happens happen? It's a tricky situation and I think many of these very old traditions and lineages are faced with these issues.

Thanks CheleK. I tried this during my lunch break and it actually relieved some of the pressure. I know virtually nothing about energy work, so appreciate practical advice such as this.

After moving my hand from my forehead down to my navel, leaving an inch or two of space, I felt pressure against my hand and stomach, like an energy field. It reminded me of how magnets can be placed in such a way that they repel each other. It was subtle, though, so I could have just been imagining it. Either way, the energy does seem to be more evenly dispersed now.

Yes, context and directions, please. :-)

I think the context is "getting your ass kicked by some guy three times you age several dozen times", for one.

Very little of this stuff I'd start practicing out at home alone, and that's out of me having dones some stupid shit before; I don't have a kung fu sifu, so I don't even do simple tai chi at home. My teacher was a salesman and writer before he started teaching, he's not going to be able to fix a kundalini emergency if i call him at 6 am panicing.

Consider, e.g., Daniel may have just given people written instructions, but he'll answer your emails and tell you you're wrong, so there is still some sort of relationship. Even seemingly simple things like the "Protective Meditations" can have significant side effects done too much. If you don't believe me, do what I did, the Recollection on Death for fifteen minutes twice a day for three months. If you read the texts or lectures, you'll see warnings about by teachers; Ajaan Lee certainly gave some.

As decadent, consumeristic Westerners it's easy to divorce the simple fact that all teachings and practices have had a social context, both immediate and indirect. So, I'm saying, be careful.

Hi CheleK
1 I have agreed to these terms. Although he is smaller than many western 10 year old's and although his bones are far more brittle now he can whup a 250lb 3rd degree black belt of any kind without appearing to raise a finger. He is still faster and more skilled regardless of the relative vitality and capacities of any 25 year old Muay Thai type fighters like he was. Go figure. Hmmm, none of these guys would have traditionally grown old otherwise, imho. They have had a familial responsibility to either lead or train the Chinese army for hundreds of years as far as I know. One general reportedly lived to 250 years of age.
2 I think that is widely and abundantly realized with great potential benefits and some considerable potential harm as well, imho.

3 Freely available? Yes and no. With no personal direct instruction and guidance, yes, a big problem always. Yes it is a problem for them. In this case the Yang Family Lineage effectively owns this applied technology and has various rights and responsibilities according to their own particular conceptions.

Most importantly it is important for a student to take their own responsibilities seriously and with all of the appropriate respect and humility that may be involved. Sifu has not been a mushroomy 'traditionalist'. He applies what is beneficial in a very Dharma-like way from the past and present. He provided insight freely according to his own understanding of what was beneficial. He doesn't teach fighting anymore except defensively and has not for a long time. In my time with him he's been centrally focused on the health & healing aspects as all martial arts rightly should be imho.

The potentially harmful applications are indisputable and in the worst case scenario can effectively make anyone into a lethal weapon, for good or ill. There is a real burden of responsibility that goes with that. I can take quite a beating without defending myself at all other than attempting to escape. I have to do at least that much first and maybe ultimately accept my certain death regardless of the alternatives.

What a buzz kill I can be. Again no intention to derail a valuable discussion. Excellent sources persist in relative obscurity and honestly many more pure shroom sources for this are in the 'market'. It's worth it to develop a nose for the 'real goods' and to look for that authenticity if you can't already define it from having observed someone doing this kind of work effectively at length. It isn't flashy stuff. It's usually subtle, slow, gradual and involves ongoing interaction between teachers and students.

Sifu would have taught for free, "I'm doing this every day anyways", but no one would respect that in the west. A small fee brought in students, those that weren't interested in becoming Jackie Chan overnight persisted and were a much more fun and interesting group to work with than a bunch of hyper adolescent boys ever is. Lawyers, doctors, fashion models, housewives, you name it. Most of the local Chinese resented his teaching westerners but no one ever challenged him successfully about it or questioned his superiority to any other teachers than he would which were few and are likely less now. Few Chinese were initially willing to cross this line and study with him.

If CheleK's teachers say he can speak about or teach this or that then he certainly can according to them and as far as I can see he is on the right track so that speaks well of his teachers to me. I certainly learned enough to continue my own work in a three year time period but I'm not qualified to teach this and it would be dangerous to attempt healing applications without that kind of authentic qualification. Teaching self healing is essentially included in that. Sorry, I'm not qualified or authorized by the standards that I've learned to appreciate. I can recommend seeking out highly adept teachers with very high standards of instruction and personal conduct because they do exist.

Triplethink: Not a 'buzz kill' I think. Good words of advice. Sifu sounds like a cool guy.

Regarding my 'horse out of the barn' statement. I was referring to the intense energy practices that I have seen people promoting. nathan28 said: “he's not going to be able to fix a kundalini emergency if i call him at 6 am panicking.” - exactly my concern. I know I couldn't.

When Taoist practices get taken out of context, it is similar to a Buddhist teacher just focusing on jhanas and special powers without speaking of insight and awakening.