Wim Hof tummo siddhi - Discussion
Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Stick Man, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 22.10.2015 14:52
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 22.10.2015 14:52
Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 396 Liittymispäivä: 23.9.2014 Viimeisimmät viestit
I notice the Ice Man Wim Hof is getting scientific and media traction, how close is his method to traditional techniques like Tibetan tummo (if I have the terminology right).
Thoughts please ?
Thoughts please ?
Dada Kind, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 22.10.2015 15:55
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 22.10.2015 15:55
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 633 Liittymispäivä: 15.11.2013 Viimeisimmät viestitStick Man, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 22.10.2015 19:07
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 22.10.2015 19:00
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 396 Liittymispäivä: 23.9.2014 Viimeisimmät viestit
I remember seeing his Arctic circle marathon years ago, but didn't really twig that this was a teachable thing rather than a bit of natural freakery, or that it had anything to do with tummo. Do you think he's doing what the Tibetans do but with less hocus pokus ?
The results with the immune system experiment are pretty startling. I've had people tell me that concentration will cure illness, "yeah just focus on the feeling" blah blah , but all that ever did was make me more aware of the discomfort, and make me think it was idiotic advice.
I guess the thing that makes the difference is to use a breathing technique to alter the physiology rather than just expecting it to be mind over matter and simply meditate an illness away.
I've never found meditation to have any effect on asthma, for example, it just sucks more dust mite feces up my nose.
But a technique that suppresses an inflammatory response might be workable.
The results with the immune system experiment are pretty startling. I've had people tell me that concentration will cure illness, "yeah just focus on the feeling" blah blah , but all that ever did was make me more aware of the discomfort, and make me think it was idiotic advice.
I guess the thing that makes the difference is to use a breathing technique to alter the physiology rather than just expecting it to be mind over matter and simply meditate an illness away.
I've never found meditation to have any effect on asthma, for example, it just sucks more dust mite feces up my nose.
But a technique that suppresses an inflammatory response might be workable.
C P M, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 23.10.2015 8:49
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 23.10.2015 8:48
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 218 Liittymispäivä: 23.5.2013 Viimeisimmät viestitDo you think he's doing what the Tibetans do but with less hocus pokus ?
I would also be interested hearing from experienced Tummo practitioners.
Stick Man, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 23.10.2015 9:29
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 23.10.2015 9:29
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 396 Liittymispäivä: 23.9.2014 Viimeisimmät viestit
Maybe I speak too soon - or it depends on the type of hocus pocus.
I think tummo studies have had some difficulty eliminating the effects of special body movements, which naturally raise body temperature.
But the visualisations may be an important element.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0058244
The study compared those who performed breathing techniques with those who did the same techniques plus viualisation. The visualizers created greater increases in core body temperature.
I think tummo studies have had some difficulty eliminating the effects of special body movements, which naturally raise body temperature.
But the visualisations may be an important element.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0058244
The study compared those who performed breathing techniques with those who did the same techniques plus viualisation. The visualizers created greater increases in core body temperature.
The data further suggest that the meditative visualization involved in MFB allows the practitioner to reach CBTs higher than can be reached using breathing and isometric techniques alone...
...the results of Studies 1 and 2 also suggest that that the neurocognitive component (“internalized attention” on visual images) of the MFB [Meditative Forced Breathing] practice may facilitate elevation in CBT beyond the range of normal body temperature (into the fever zone), whereas the CBT increases during FB [Forced Breathing] vase breathing alone were limited, and did not exceed the range of normal body temperature.
...the results of Studies 1 and 2 also suggest that that the neurocognitive component (“internalized attention” on visual images) of the MFB [Meditative Forced Breathing] practice may facilitate elevation in CBT beyond the range of normal body temperature (into the fever zone), whereas the CBT increases during FB [Forced Breathing] vase breathing alone were limited, and did not exceed the range of normal body temperature.
Stick Man, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 23.10.2015 11:00
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 23.10.2015 11:00
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 396 Liittymispäivä: 23.9.2014 Viimeisimmät viestitSakari, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 24.10.2015 6:24
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 24.10.2015 5:44
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 38 Liittymispäivä: 28.12.2013 Viimeisimmät viestitDroll Dedekind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np0jGp6442A
was gonna post this last night too
was gonna post this last night too
Lotta love in that podcast episode.
Anyone here try the breathing technique shown by Hof, starting at 8 minutes into the video? I've done his technique based on reading descriptions about it, such as breathing as if blowing up a balloon, or similar to holotropic breathing. But seeing Hof and Joe Rogan do the breathing on the podcast, it's clearly different than I had thought. I suck at holding my breath (hey, that's gotta be some sort of pun?!), being able to do it for 1:30 at best, and only while I'm lying down. But after doing just 30 breaths of the type shown on the video, I did 2:00 without much struggle, and while walking around a part of the time.
For a moment after the breathing I felt more clear-headed than usual, with noticeably less blah-blah mind. Of course, the same can be said for most any physical exercize.
Stick Man, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 25.10.2015 20:07
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 24.10.2015 8:54
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 396 Liittymispäivä: 23.9.2014 Viimeisimmät viestit
What he got Rogan to do seemed pretty much the same as online instructions you can find.
Hard inhalation, with uncontrolled exhalation, followed by a period of breath holding.
[edit] - those instructions call the hard breathing the "balloon breath", as if you should place the emphasis on exhalation. It's very badly worded. Place the effort on inhalation instead.
Hard inhalation, with uncontrolled exhalation, followed by a period of breath holding.
[edit] - those instructions call the hard breathing the "balloon breath", as if you should place the emphasis on exhalation. It's very badly worded. Place the effort on inhalation instead.
C P M, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 25.10.2015 10:31
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 25.10.2015 10:31
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 218 Liittymispäivä: 23.5.2013 Viimeisimmät viestit
I tried the breathing technique. I held my breath for 1 minute 30 seconds, took one inhale, and held it a minute more. I wasn't really pushing it, and I don't think I've gone that long before (when swimming, snorkeling).
Here is an article from Scott Carney, Wim mentioned him as a skeptic in the vice clip.
http://www.scottcarney.com/article/the-iceman-commeth/
Here is an article from Scott Carney, Wim mentioned him as a skeptic in the vice clip.
http://www.scottcarney.com/article/the-iceman-commeth/
Stick Man, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 25.10.2015 21:11
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 25.10.2015 10:49
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 396 Liittymispäivä: 23.9.2014 Viimeisimmät viestitC P M:
I tried the breathing technique. I held my breath for 1 minute 30 seconds, took one inhale, and held it a minute more. I wasn't really pushing it, and I don't think I've gone that long before (when swimming, snorkeling).
Here is an article from Scott Carney, Wim mentioned him as a skeptic in the vice clip.
http://www.scottcarney.com/article/the-iceman-commeth/
Here is an article from Scott Carney, Wim mentioned him as a skeptic in the vice clip.
http://www.scottcarney.com/article/the-iceman-commeth/
Now you mention it I've charged myself up in a similar way before doing underwater lengths of a pool, which I always find is a calming experience, because if you lose the calm your lungs don't last as long. I'd forgotten about that. Never noticed any effect on heat, though, but public pools aren't very cold. Then after I got out I'd sometimes stick myself under the cold shower and go "UuuuuUUUWuuUWRRRGHAAHHHH!!!"
- caution, don't overdo it https://en.utwikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_water_blacko
One intention he does have is to prove his method effective in lifting depression. But can his methods have a dark night aspect ? Haven't heard of that yet. On the other hand the mindfulness based methods do seem to have a dark night aspect so is there some benefit of breathing techniques over purely mental contemplative ones ?
If you go down that line of thought you would be tempted to forget vipassana in favour of pranayama - correct me if I'm wrong ?
Also, this WH method is being postulated as a return to something we naturaly have but have lost touch with. I often wonder the same about meditation - whether the need for most meditation is simply a reaction to the development of agriculture and civilisation.
It's easier (I think) to make a case for loss of physiological wisom as a result of developing civilised lifestyles, how easy is it to extend that to the contemplative life ?
Basically the question would be something like, back in 30,000BC did we all run round naked on the ice caps, or did we need something like the WF technique in order to do so - like a physiological Golden Age ?
C P M, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 27.10.2015 10:00
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 27.10.2015 9:55
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 218 Liittymispäivä: 23.5.2013 Viimeisimmät viestit
Good tip about the shallow water blackout. The link contains some contrary information to what Wim Hof asserts, and he does address some of it in the videos above.
I don't know about most of your queries. But I am very interested to see how far his techniques can go in treating things like depression (and autoimmune disease). My opinion is that the agricultural revolution changed civilization so there was time for things like meditation (for people drawn to that). Less time looking for food means more time available for other things.
One thought that I've had lately related to Wim Hof relates to "facing things as they are". With meditation we encouraged to sit with discomfort, such as physical or emotional pain. Shinzen Young talks about "determined sits" as a fast way for spiritual development.
Well, how about putting your body in some of the most uncomfortable situations you can imagine, and just being with that? That's what Wim Hof is doing.
I don't know about most of your queries. But I am very interested to see how far his techniques can go in treating things like depression (and autoimmune disease). My opinion is that the agricultural revolution changed civilization so there was time for things like meditation (for people drawn to that). Less time looking for food means more time available for other things.
One thought that I've had lately related to Wim Hof relates to "facing things as they are". With meditation we encouraged to sit with discomfort, such as physical or emotional pain. Shinzen Young talks about "determined sits" as a fast way for spiritual development.
Well, how about putting your body in some of the most uncomfortable situations you can imagine, and just being with that? That's what Wim Hof is doing.
Stick Man, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 27.10.2015 10:44
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 27.10.2015 10:29
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 396 Liittymispäivä: 23.9.2014 Viimeisimmät viestit
Yeah it does seem to contradict Hof.
It says that hyperventilation doesn't really change the oxygen content of the blood, whereas many divers and pranayamists think it does, although it also looks like there's some room for some elevation of O2.
I think it's more a case of lowering the blood CO2 level than raising the oxygen level. So it's not so much a case of living off more oxygen, but rather you don't get the signal to breath from the CO2 level, for a longer time.
Also this causes blood vessel constriction in the brain which gives the light headedness, and if that's the case then the lightheadedness isn't due to extra "energy".
The wikiP page on hyperventilation has some interesting basic info.
I tried a home oximeter and I think raised the oxygen level in my blood by a couple of points by power breathing, but I don't think those are super accurate. Hof says he can take oximeter reading over 100.
But he seems able to hold his breath a long time, and I suppose that free diver's training works to some degree so I think maybe there's more to it than a basic wikipedia treatment allows.
And he's obviously mastered other profound effects of breath manipulation. Hyperventilation can be caused by stress response, so I wonder if there is some reverse engineering going on - getting into the stress response via hyperventilation ?
It all needs a proper physiology book treatment. As he becomes more widely known maybe some enterpising bunny will produce one.
Don't know how much it is a response to determined discomfort though that may play a part in what Shinzen Young did. He talks about his gruelling zen training, and bliss response, which sounds like an endorphin/cannabinoid/whatever rush in response to pain. It also sounded like something people into S&M talk about. http://friskybusinessboutique.com/the-endorphin-levels-in-bdsm/
Sound familiar ?
It says that hyperventilation doesn't really change the oxygen content of the blood, whereas many divers and pranayamists think it does, although it also looks like there's some room for some elevation of O2.
I think it's more a case of lowering the blood CO2 level than raising the oxygen level. So it's not so much a case of living off more oxygen, but rather you don't get the signal to breath from the CO2 level, for a longer time.
Also this causes blood vessel constriction in the brain which gives the light headedness, and if that's the case then the lightheadedness isn't due to extra "energy".
The wikiP page on hyperventilation has some interesting basic info.
I tried a home oximeter and I think raised the oxygen level in my blood by a couple of points by power breathing, but I don't think those are super accurate. Hof says he can take oximeter reading over 100.
But he seems able to hold his breath a long time, and I suppose that free diver's training works to some degree so I think maybe there's more to it than a basic wikipedia treatment allows.
And he's obviously mastered other profound effects of breath manipulation. Hyperventilation can be caused by stress response, so I wonder if there is some reverse engineering going on - getting into the stress response via hyperventilation ?
It all needs a proper physiology book treatment. As he becomes more widely known maybe some enterpising bunny will produce one.
Don't know how much it is a response to determined discomfort though that may play a part in what Shinzen Young did. He talks about his gruelling zen training, and bliss response, which sounds like an endorphin/cannabinoid/whatever rush in response to pain. It also sounded like something people into S&M talk about. http://friskybusinessboutique.com/the-endorphin-levels-in-bdsm/
This flying state can be attained by some with very little endorphin content in their systems. (Some claim no endorphins are required, but I’m quite certain most folks have attained at least a level Three or Level Four endorphin high in order to trigger the total release of inhibitions that this psychological state seems to require, at least generally speaking.) With practice, the release into this “flying” submissive-space should come easier and easier, eventually with even a mere suggestion triggering the effect for some with very little or even no endorphin content being in the picture. COMBINED with the Level Five or Six endorphin head space, there likely can be no deeper state of ecstasy possible for the bottom — short of total enlightenment! Until such an experience of full enlightenment can be accomplished, perhaps the attainment of this interim bliss is acceptable, and certainly should be considered an attractive and enjoyable state to be in! The secret ingredients are: intense focus; a commitment to please the dominant utterly; and, complete and total devotion.
Sound familiar ?
Stick Man, muokattu 9 Vuodet sitten at 27.10.2015 10:49
Created 9 Vuodet ago at 27.10.2015 10:48
RE: Wim Hof tummo siddhi
Viestejä: 396 Liittymispäivä: 23.9.2014 Viimeisimmät viestit
Anyway I'm glad to point out the blackout thing. I was thinking about trying hyperventilation and swimming myself, and it wouldn't be a surprise if more people are tempted to try it now.