The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

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Vajracchedika Ian Vajra, muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 13.6.2010 13:20
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 13.6.2010 13:17

The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

Viestejä: 22 Liittymispäivä: 13.4.2010 Viimeisimmät viestit
I guess this one is specifically directed at Daniel! I would like to say again how much I've appreciated MCTB - it's been one of a handful of the most significant teachings I've had in 25 years or so of practice, and I only wish I had come across it sooner.

I've just been on a week's solitary meditation retreat. This has been my first opportunity to practice in a full-on way since I came across the book in February, and was not only significant as a retreat, but my first real chance to look more deeply at a couple of issues that had been bothering me about it. Please hear me in the context of overall trust in and appreciation of your work and practice.

An important concern for me was that Fruition did not seem to occur in the way offered in MCTB, in the section 'Was that Emptiness?'. I came across the book very soon after an experience of Nirodha Samapatti, which stood for me as as it were the ultimate unknowing experience, with a distinct and unmistakable loss of any sort of awareness.

My experience of Fruition was of a kind of peak experience which ended a cycle, involved some kind of non-verbal understanding of the way things were, and it was in a sense an end in itself. However, there was not a complete break in awareness. Awareness refined, became very still and 'rarified', like a perfectly smooth opaque bright white mist, very alive, and then faded back into normal functioning. It was usually a brief experience of a few moments, with sometimes two or three fruitions in a row, like little blips; but at times this experience seemed to be extended for seconds or minutes...

On retreat, I was able to look at this more deeply. After an experience of centrelessness a few weeks ago, I'd had a bit of what became apparent as the first few jnanas going on, and had some work to do for a day or so. Then for three or four days a lot of these Fruition experiences occurred in such a context that I could see them much more closely, as I was spending much of my time in the arupa-jhanas. I shall start another thread regarding Formations soon, as this was also a fascinating area of improved understanding.

Lo and behold though, Fruition did present in the ways described in the book around pages 276-7, with most of the Fruitions being of the Emptiness with Impermanence variety. A small number were of other varieties. However I could see quite clearly that a certain fundamental awareness did not go, even if much of my ordinary functioning would begin to fade/peak, then blink out with one of the signs as in MCTB, and then fade back in. My rationalisation was that this awareness is fundamental, and the term True Nature would do for it for now. It is only one's changing self that goes and returns, as it were.

Imagine my consternation in the last couple of days when I was frequently seeing right through the three marks to the corelessness of phenomena, and then spending half-a-sit or so most sits in a state of one-ness with that core-lessness. The nature of all phenomena was 'the same as' the True Nature. I began thinking, and I suppose still am, of the 3 Samadhis - but then, as things were getting pretty wild (meditating in dreams, spontaneous orgasm-like experiences, etc.), I realised this was also quite clearly the Arising and Passing Away. I have had isolated experiences before that I would call Samadhi proper, but in those I was as it were locked in to a state of knowing and could barely function in an ordinary way. Harder than the hardest of jhanas. This was somewhat more fluid, but had the same quality of quiet somewhat marvelling union with a dharma truth which was 'here' and not 'over there'.

Normally with A&P, I attend to experience in its fluidity briefly at the beginning of a sit and there is the double dip, and it is like 'going underwater' into the world of meditation - usually within a minute or so. Here, it was as if that actual brief experience in the double dip was indefinitely extended. The content of it though was of the Fruitions previously recently experienced - and so I was able to get a really good look at an awful lot - another thread for that required! Of course, Fruitions as such, in the way that I had previously known them, were not to be found during this time...

So, if I have questions, they are: (1) Do you recognise this description of Fruition, or am I up a gum-tree?, and (2) What about the 3 Samadhis and their place in the cycle of Insight?

And, because you are an all-knowing god, you might be able to tell me which Path it was the A&P of! It seems much clearer that there is only one A&P per Path when you are practising with continuity and vigour, but Path-moments seem to be trickier to assess after the first one or two.

Somewhat as an aside, I had a much clearer sense of why this practice works, and how it works. Working at the level of fundamental sensations completely undercuts the ordinary self and its functioning because that self precisely does not see that it is a construction, and does not even expect a threat from that quarter. It does not know what its foundations are, or that it has them. The Dark Night is broadly the after-effects of undermining these foundations. The discomfort of the Dark Night seems irrational and kind of unrelated to the work one does in practice because the self is threatened but cannot see from where the threat comes - that would be to know too much, and be the cause of its own demise. This at least explains the sense I have had the last few months that the self is like a hand trying to grasp itself - but sensations of course cannot grasp themselves - which one also sees.
Trent , muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 13.6.2010 21:31
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 13.6.2010 21:31

RE: The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

Viestejä: 361 Liittymispäivä: 22.8.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi there, I decided to comment although this is "specifically direct at Daniel." Just a few things worth considering.

Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
An important concern for me was that Fruition did not seem to occur in the way offered in MCTB, in the section 'Was that Emptiness?'. I came across the book very soon after an experience of Nirodha Samapatti, which stood for me as as it were the ultimate unknowing experience, with a distinct and unmistakable loss of any sort of awareness.

My experience of Fruition was of a kind of peak experience which ended a cycle, involved some kind of non-verbal understanding of the way things were, and it was in a sense an end in itself. However, there was not a complete break in awareness. Awareness refined, became very still and 'rarified', like a perfectly smooth opaque bright white mist, very alive, and then faded back into normal functioning. It was usually a brief experience of a few moments, with sometimes two or three fruitions in a row, like little blips; but at times this experience seemed to be extended for seconds or minutes...

On retreat, I was able to look at this more deeply. After an experience of centrelessness a few weeks ago, I'd had a bit of what became apparent as the first few jnanas going on, and had some work to do for a day or so. Then for three or four days a lot of these Fruition experiences occurred in such a context that I could see them much more closely, as I was spending much of my time in the arupa-jhanas. I shall start another thread regarding Formations soon, as this was also a fascinating area of improved understanding.


This experience does not sound like fruition in some ways, it sounds more like high equanimity with hard jhanas coming and going or an experience of formations in a way that really stood out for you (or something of the like). The reason I say this is because if there is not a complete break in awareness, it isn't a fruition. When you mention the "little blips," what were they? Little blips of the "smooth opaque bright white mist?"

By the way, Nirodha Samapatti (NS) is also a complete break in awareness, and the entire process is quite noticeable since one must have pretty darn good concentration to access it in the first place. With that said...are you sure you attained to it? NS is an incredible attainment in terms of what comes after (it seems to change one in some fundamental way), for reasons no one can seem to figure out nor clearly define. It is worth being honest with oneself just in case, and double-or-triple-checking to ensure you've really done it.


Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
Lo and behold though, Fruition did present in the ways described in the book around pages 276-7, with most of the Fruitions being of the Emptiness with Impermanence variety. A small number were of other varieties. However I could see quite clearly that a certain fundamental awareness did not go, even if much of my ordinary functioning would begin to fade/peak, then blink out with one of the signs as in MCTB, and then fade back in. My rationalisation was that this awareness is fundamental, and the term True Nature would do for it for now. It is only one's changing self that goes and returns, as it were.


To ensure I understand, are you saying that you experienced your "True Nature" before and after the "fruition" (the blink out)? What duration did you experience this "Nature?" For example: 2 seconds before the fruition and 2 seconds after, or what?

Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
Normally with A&P, I attend to experience in its fluidity briefly at the beginning of a sit and there is the double dip, and it is like 'going underwater' into the world of meditation - usually within a minute or so. Here, it was as if that actual brief experience in the double dip was indefinitely extended. The content of it though was of the Fruitions previously recently experienced - and so I was able to get a really good look at an awful lot - another thread for that required! Of course, Fruitions as such, in the way that I had previously known them, were not to be found during this time...


I don't understand this at all. Are you saying the content of the A&P was the same as the content of the previous fruitions? I'm asking primarily because fruitions are, by definition, bereft of content. With that said...perhaps it is worth asking: what was it that you were getting a "really good look" at?

Fruitions in the sense of "smooth opaque bright white mist" were "not to be found during this time?"

Vajracchedika Ian Vajra:
So, if I have questions, they are: (1) Do you recognise this description of Fruition, or am I up a gum-tree?, and (2) What about the 3 Samadhis and their place in the cycle of Insight?


(1): See above; clarify via answering the questions if you wish.
(2): What are the 3 Samadhis by another name (I am unfamiliar with this terminology)?

Best,
Trent

PS. I do not recommend meditating in a tree...although falling out of one would surely let you know what your "True Nature" actually is.
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Nikolai , muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 13.6.2010 22:27
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 13.6.2010 22:27

RE: The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

Viestejä: 1677 Liittymispäivä: 23.1.2010 Viimeisimmät viestit
Trent H.:


By the way, Nirodha Samapatti (NS) is also a complete break in awareness, and the entire process is quite noticeable since one must have pretty darn good concentration to access it in the first place. With that said...are you sure you attained to it? NS is an incredible attainment in terms of what comes after (it seems to change one in some fundamental way), for reasons no one can seem to figure out nor clearly define. It is worth being honest with oneself just in case, and double-or-triple-checking to ensure you've really done it.




Hi trent,

I was wondering if you could elaborate on your experience of nirodha sampatti as to what you found "quite noticeable" and how maybe it changes you. I ask because I think I am running into it. I sometimes use Kenneth's "imagine shining a light inwards to the third eye area" trick. I passed through several months of "third eye" headaches and pressure during 2nd path but these days I feel the spot an inch or so behind the eyes (pineal gland?) with great clarity and when I focus on it, the mind sinks into a visually darker absorbtion. Things seem to drop away. And if I keep my concentration there for enough time , I will have a fruition which brings much more of a full body bliss wave than a normal fruition. The mind will then "unsink" from this "darkness". And at times "sink" back down into it. I can't seem to be able to get more than a fraction of a second where the senses shut down. Can you talk about your experience with it?

Nick
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Vajracchedika Ian Vajra, muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 14.6.2010 0:44
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 14.6.2010 0:43

RE: The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

Viestejä: 22 Liittymispäivä: 13.4.2010 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi Trent

Thanks for your very full response, which will take me some time to get to properly...

Here is a link to my previous report about NS amongst other things.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/432110?_19_threadView=flat

I do have a lot of jhana experience 6th and below, and an increasing amount of 7th and 8th jhana under my belt - I had a couple of solid 8th jhana sits on this retreat, and although one can be left wondering what the hell that was in some ways, it is nothing like NS.

The 3 Samadhis - I'll have to look out a resource for that - they are basically accessed through the 3 marks, and are the Samadhis of Emptiness, of WIshlessness, and of Signlessness.
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Vajracchedika Ian Vajra, muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 14.6.2010 13:48
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 14.6.2010 13:48

RE: The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

Viestejä: 22 Liittymispäivä: 13.4.2010 Viimeisimmät viestit
So, more of a proper response to you, Trent.

The sense of what I call True Nature arises up to and then fades after the 'blips', more or less. One's awareness becomes increasingly clear, then there is the short little 'jump', almost like a shock of energy but more like a clarity/knowing experience, often with a slight physical jolt, and then there is a mild pleasant floating phase afterwards. The image of the sense of an opaque perfectly smooth mist is an attempt by me to communicate the sense of where this experience leads as you can feel quite a bit of your ordinary mind falling away - the mind becomes more 'white'. The actual blip is like a step change within a smooth curve. Perhaps it is an unknowing experience - just very brief.

Please be aware how metaphorical my language has to be. I have so much experience of the jhanas, over 25 years, and other meditative phenomena, that I'm purty sure that it is not a blip of jhana - such a thing wouldn't really be noteworthy. This experience I am trying to understand is repeatable, and seems to relate to phases of Equanimity mostly. I experience it most days at least once nearly always during sitting. On this retreat it occurred a few dozen times over 4-5 days. It hasn't occurred distinctly the last 5 days as the A&P is still rattling around, I guess.

NS is pretty unmistakeable. Hard 8th jhana is obviously on the way there, as verbalisation, cognition and perception are all muted, and it thus has a reminiscent feel. NS is so powerful partly because it is voluntarily undergoing your own death-experience - I can't see how there can be anything quite like it.

Regarding my horribly condensed and convoluted passage about the A&P - please forgive me! - I was trying to say that I felt I was experiencing the proper A&P of the next Path, instead of a brief passing experience relating to my current Path, because that usual momentary experience of accessing the fluidity of experience through the 3 characteristics in a deeper way became indefinite, samadhi-like, and was rather like the more open cleaner awareness that fruitions seem to be centred in. I cannot say that it was exactly like the fruition itself, as that phenomenon is too brief for me to make anything of. What I can say is that I seemed to be seeing into the empty heart of any phenomena in the field, that there was only this clean awareness that was not centred 'here', and that this emptiness was Infinite Life. Initially the energy of this Infinite Life seemed to arise from the hara, not from the heart-area, but after a sit or two it seemed more clearly to come out of the heart of phenomena. In a way this awareness was just like that in the 'opaque perfectly smooth bright mist' metaphor, in its being so even-handed and without knots, obstructions or centres. What I 'saw' in the field of awareness were phenomena tending to this brilliant openness, and in a fundamental way they were not really there. This is what I was getting a 'good look at', and this is why I saw this new A&P as having the same 'content' (?no-content?) as previous fruitions - more accurately, of the time around fruitions.

The 3 samadhis - they are taught in my tradition, but I will have to hunt for the source. Each of the 3 characteristics has a samadhi that it is an entrance to. I have a particular love of the teaching, because I bumped into the samadhi of Wishlessness in a fairly dramatic way about 20 years ago once on retreat. I am interested in how samadhi fits in to the Cycle of Insight - because over the years I've had a number of particularly significant experiences of this sort.
Trent , muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 17.6.2010 17:37
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 17.6.2010 17:36

RE: The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

Viestejä: 361 Liittymispäivä: 22.8.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi,

Well, it is hard for me to follow your passage because you use a lot of terms that I am simply unfamiliar with, and which make not a lick of sense to me when considering the normal meaning of words. For example: "Infinite Life."

However, it sounds likely that you are experiencing fruition, and the "opaque mist" is likely the "after-glow" of the experience. To clarify, does this "mist" begin to build up in the visual field for 1-2 seconds, followed by a peak -- like if the "mist" completely filled all of your experience (this is where the blink-out occurs, but with low concentration it won't be noticed)-- and then gradually dissipates? If so: how long on average does the mist take to dissipate?

Can you trigger this experience anytime you want? If that sounds foreign already, try this: shut your eyes, intend your attention inwardly (as if to go as deep as possible), "flex" the back of your head / base of your neck (the brain stem area), and while fluttering your eyes upward. Try doing all of that simultaneously-- drilling deep with the attention-intention/fluttering/flexing for a few seconds each attempt-- and see what happens. If it works and a fruition occurs, relax after the peak or you'll probably get a headache from the fluttering/flexing. The reason for toying with this is because I don't think it's is possible to do unless you're an anagami or arhat, so the ability to do this may help you clarify that issue.

Best,
Trent
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Daniel M Ingram, muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 2.7.2010 23:03
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 2.7.2010 23:03

RE: The nature of the Fruition 'experience' (Vastaus)

Viestejä: 3274 Liittymispäivä: 20.4.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit
Dear VIV,

I have been working a whole lot lately and so got a little behind on my DhO reading.

Sorry I am just getting to this now.

A few things:

Fruitions are a complete and utter gap without anything going on at all and not even that. Reality, every single bit of it, including space, awareness, "primordial" anything, consciousness, perception, perspective, time, timelessness, unity, nothingness, somethingness and anything else: all completely and utterly gone, such that nothing is there to mark the gap except the entrance and exit and the fact of a complete resetting of the mind and an utterly atemporal, aspacial gap. Do not settle for any muted definition or wiggle on this one: it won't help.

NS is quite an attainment. It does really change things and is important. It is only accomplished by anagamis and arahats who have access to the formless realms. As stated, the setup is specific to it, sort of like the easter-egg functionality in a game like Mario Brothers, in which, say, one jumps on the golden mushroom on level 5 three times, the green egg appears, and you use this to open the secret magic crystal once you cross the bridge. In exactly that way, an anagami or an arahat sets up the entrance by rising to 8th, coming out and resolving and then, if one is good or lucky, it happening. It is complete in the way Fruitions are, but its entrance and exit are different, and the afterglow is a whole different world of afterglow from anything else. Criteria again should be strictly applied: not anagami or arahat, not it, not set up in the proper way, not it, anything happening during it, not it, entrance and exit not in the specific order or mode of NS, not it, afterglow not really profound and long-lasting, not it.

The A&P in all its variants and complexities is a pernicious mimic and this should be watched for with care.

As to which path, I don't see anything that specifically talks about the information or criteria that apply to that sort of thing, such as progression of the paths, insight cycles, progression of various walking-around perspectives, ability to perceive certain aspects of things.

Helpful?

Daniel
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Vajracchedika Ian Vajra, muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 16.8.2010 0:42
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 14.8.2010 5:46

RE: The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

Viestejä: 22 Liittymispäivä: 13.4.2010 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi Daniel, and thanks for your response! I seemed to miss it unaccountably - perhaps there was a busy period on the site, and it passed off the front page of Recent Posts really quickly...

It's something of a problem, having come to your book after 20 years of practice within a different tradition ie not explicitly Noting, certainly not exclusively. I am still making major inroads into understanding my experience in the terms of your book at an intimate level. I use metaphor quite a bit - partly because at this level one is quite clear that any rational structure may or may not provide useful insights and directions, but is definitely not to be equated with the direct experience...but it is important for communication to have a common language, obviously, so I'll try and bear that more in mind.

I came across your book soon after my second experience of NS, and I think that in the light of this Fruition seemed really a lot less significant - NS itself is a Fruition is it not? and I think I was looking to that too much as I was trying to understand Fruition in everyday practice. The afterglow from NS is certainly hours if not days, and for me has been like being in a Pure Land.

However, as time has gone on, I am clearer about the everyday experience of Fruition, and easier about just letting it happen. In answer to Trent, there is a build-up of a few seconds before it, and an afterglow like a subtle mild wave of expansion lasting maybe 5-10 seconds, though in a sense it just keeps on expanding outwards and becoming more still like a ripple in a pond does... 'resetting' is a good way of describing it. I can say more clearly now that the ability to know or be aware of anything is lost at that peak - it is like the attention wave turns inside-out and cancels itself out altogether. I think prior to MCTB I would in a sense fight the Fruition moment by 'looking for Insight' at the time when one's practice was coming to a peak, so to speak, and this just confuses things. It was less frequent during a particularly tough period of Re-observation recently, in that it would arise only under more specific meditative conditions, but it is otherwise frequent. Except for the period just mentioned, I can and could repeat it in something like the way Trent suggests.

Regarding the 3 samadhis, which I said I would look up:-

I quote from Sangharakshita's lecture on Right Meditation:-

"Now we come on to three which is samadhi proper, the state or the stage of being fixed, being established in Reality, in other words the state or the stage of being Enlightened, being a Buddha. And there are of course many ways of looking at this state or this stage of samadhi. Often of course it’s described in negative terms. It’s described for instance in terms of the destruction of the asravas as they’re called. The word asra means a sort of poisonous flux, a bias, a sort of lopsidedness in our nature. And the asravas are three in number. First of all there’s the kamasrava or the bias towards the poisonous flux of the desire or the thirst for contact with material things, for their own sake, on their own level. Then secondly bhavasrava, the bias towards, the poisonous flux of conditioned existence, in other words the attachment to or desire for any mode of being, any mode of existence short of Enlightenment itself. Then thirdly avijjasrava, bias towards the poisonous flux of ignorance, in the sense of spiritual darkness and unawareness.

So in the first place, in the first instance, samadhi proper is described as the complete absence of any vestige of these three asravas, these three poisonous fluxes or biases. A state in which sense experiences, material things, mean nothing, a state in which there is no desire for any kind of conditioned existence, where one isn’t really interested in anything other than nirvana or Enlightenment itself, because one is that at that moment, and a state of complete illumination and clarity and freedom and Enlightenment, when there is no shadow of ignorance or spiritual darkness.

Now in addition to this negative description there are also various positive descriptions, though here of course we must tread rather warily and realise, understand, that we’re trying to give a hint or two about something which really goes far beyond any power of words to express. Some of the texts, some of the teachings, mention a group of three samadhis, in this higher sense of this term samadhi. Not that there are really three in the sense of three mutually exclusive states. The so-called three samadhis are more like different aspects or different dimensions of the one samadhi.

The first of these is known as the Imageless. It indicates the state of samadhi’s perfect freedom from all thoughts, from all conceptualisation. If we think for a while, if we can just imagine, even, a state in which we’re fully and clearly conscious, fully and clearly aware at the highest possible level, but there’s no discursive thought; if we think, as it were, of the mind as being like a beautiful bright blue clear sky with no cloud - not even a speck of cloud, this is what this state of imageless samadhi experience would be like. Most of the time of course the sky of the mind is full of clouds, full of grey clouds, full of even black clouds, sometimes full of storm clouds, occasionally of course full of clouds tinged with gold, but usually rather dark and grey and unpleasant. So the state of samadhi is a state of imagelessness, freedom from all clouds of thought. A state of freedom from conceptualisation.

The second samadhi, or aspect or dimension of samadhi, is known as the Directionless, also translated as the unbiased, because samadhi is a state in which there’s no particular direction in which one wants to go. There’s no particular preference. One as it were remains just poised, like a sphere resting on a completely horizontal plane, it’s just poised there, there’s no particular reason why it should roll in this direction or in that direction of its own accord, it just stays where it is. So samadhi, the Enlightened mind, is like this. It has no particular tendency or inclination in any particular direction because it has no individual or egoistic desire. It’s a rather difficult sort of state to express but if one thinks of it perhaps in terms of perfect spontaneity without any particular urge or impulse to do anything in particular then one may get somewhere near it.

Now the third samadhi or third aspect or dimension of samadhi is known as that of the Voidness - sunyata. Sunyata doesn’t mean emptiness or voidness in the literal sense, it means reality. So sunyata samadhi is the state or the stage of full and complete realisation of the ultimate nature of existence which cannot be put into words. It’s not just a glimpse as in the stage of Perfect Vision. It’s a full, a total, and a perfect realisation. Now this samadhi of sunyata, Ultimate Reality, is connected in some of the texts, in some of the sutras, by what is known as the ekalaksana-samadhi or the samadhi of one characteristic, which is also known as the samadhi of same-mindedness, or even-mindedness. This is a state or stage or experience where one sees everything as having the same characteristic. Usually of course we see things as having different characteristics. We say some things are good, some are bad, some are pleasant, some are unpleasant, some we like, some we dislike, some are near, some are far, some are past, some are present, some are future. In this way we give different characteristics to so many different things. But in this stage, in this state of samadhi, you see that everything has got the same characteristic - it’s all sunyata, it’s all ultimately real, in a sense it’s all the same in its very depths, in its ultimate depths. So inasmuch as everything is basically the same there’s no reason why you should have different attitudes towards different things. If everything is the same obviously you have the same attitude towards everything. So this is this particular state or this aspect or dimension of samadhi. So if one sees everything as same, everything as having the same characteristic, obviously one is in a state of peace and tranquillity and stability and rest."
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Daniel M Ingram, muokattu 13 Vuodet sitten at 15.8.2010 5:18
Created 13 Vuodet ago at 15.8.2010 5:18

RE: The nature of the Fruition 'experience'

Viestejä: 3274 Liittymispäivä: 20.4.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit
I appreciate the difficulties in crossing into a new set of terminology and trying to translate into that. It truly is not easy and takes a lot of time.

This is relatively technical dogma from one point of view or just standard terminological definitions from another point of view, but regardless, as to NS being a Fruition: no, it isn't. It has a different setup, entrance and exit, and, as it has no qualities, it has no basis for analysis, and thus is the only attainment that is neither classified as an ultimate or relative attainment, given that there is no way to know one way or the other.

Thanks for the passage: good reading.

Daniel