I feel like I should have started this three years ago! 

Hi, my name is Kelly and I've been practicing for about three years. I began my practice with a Joe Dispenza book. I then moved to the TMI method. After gaining quick traction with shamatha I began to cycle the path of insight and have insight experiences.

Typically my practice is a daily 60-minute sit. I also do wim hof each morning with a cold shower and a 20-minute qigong session before bed. 

Practice when not cycling - I start by do shamatha and then do any number of things, non-dual/emptiness, vipassana, vypashana, jhana, etc.

Practice when cycling - sit back and watch the madness unfold. =)

Attainments can be vague but I believe that I'm beyond stream entry. 2nd or perhaps 3rd path. I've never had a teacher, but I'm not opposed to it.

Thanks for reading! 

I'm currently cycling the path of insight. I had a profound A&P experience a couple of weeks ago. Shortly after my mind became busy with thoughts. I found myself unable to do single-point concentration and I could only see ends of thoughts. This is my tell-tale sign of the DN nana. 

After reaching the DN I usually sit and observe the black hole each day for 60 minutes since trying to actually do anything is futile. I believe I'm now somewhere in EQ, perhaps reaching close to high EQ. As soon as I close my eyes I get sucked into the black hole. Now it's more wide and diffuse. It's like being in a dream in which I see subconscious thoughts and imagery. 

This is has been my experience for a couple of years. Concentration gets very high with the shamatha jhanas for a few weeks then the cycle starts. I work through the nanas and then the cycle restarts. I usually don't have cessation. I have had many cessations in the past but there haven't been any in quite a while. 

We'll see what this cycle brings. =)

I've been reading your stuff for years so I am so happy that you started a log! I didn't have time to read it in detail right now but I'm subscribed! 2nd or 3rd path? That's amazing! 

Thanks Sam! I could very well be wrong as to where I am on the path, and I'm okay with that. ;)

Today I did my usual 60-minute sit. I'm still working through the DN and lower EQ. I thought that maybe I wasn't getting enough sleep and that's what was causing the "black hole" phenomenon. I should know better! Even plenty of sleep has no effect on attention. Within minutes of closing my eyes I was sucked into the the hole and there was not much that I could do but observe.

I did try to cultivate compassion for some of the sit. I did a guided meditation by Michael Taft on universal compassion last week and tried to use some of that today. He has you visualize yourself becoming filled with love, compassion, confidence, and well-being from a far away diety/star. The diety fills you with compassion and then you visualize yourself sharing that compassion with your family and community.

I've been reading a book called Altered Traits. It's written by a group harvard scientists that also do meditation. They found that there are four main neural pathways that can be strengthened through meditation. One of those is loving kindness/compassion. However, the brain activity for loving kindness and compassion shows a different signature. They found that those cultivating compassion were more able to help people in need, as opposed to those who practice loving kindness, who were only able to empathize with those that are suffering. 

I've read that metta is helpful for the DN. Fortunately, I only had a few days in which my mind was really driving me nuts and that has passed now.  I'm going to keep trucking through.

​​​​​​​Perhaps tomorrow I'll try body scanning to see if it will speed up the process. Attention is so wide and vague that sensations and intentions are like faint whispers. It's difficult to hold any intention for longer than a few seconds. 

Hey Kelly, something from my practice that might be helpful.
1) Getting "sucked into the black hole" seems to be the idea of the whole DN-suck-you-in-a-black-hole phase. Resisting or looking for an easy way around makes it more difficult. I personally found letting the whole do its thing and go as deep as it likes  to be better and surprisingly much less painful and at times even pleasant in a weird way. 
2) Making life arrangements so that you have more alone time, more rest time and less tasks that require heavy mental activity and focused attention is generally a good idea

Good luck and keep going

Thank you Kaloyan. I appreciate your wisdom. I agree, it's futile to resist the black hole. Fortunately, it usually only lasts for about a week and it appears that it has passed.

There's also something oddly satisfying about the DN. I feel like I gain more insight each time I pass through it.

-Cheers!

Today and yesterday I had a different experience on the cushion. It seems that I've progressed beyond the DN and into something else. I thought that maybe I'd go into EQ and perhaps I did experience it briefly, it's unclear. 

Attention has changed. I'm able to focus attention again but not very acutely. Today I spent the first 30 minutes of my sit getting concentrated. It felt like I was over efforting trying to reach second jhana. I switched to open awareness and practiced emptiness for about 15 minutes. Then I practiced universal compassion by cultivating compassion from a diety for another 15 minutes. I let compassion well up in my chest and then shared it with my family, friends, neighbors, and then people that I don't particularly like =). 

I'm going to follow this outline for the next few days and see if I can strengthen the neural pathways for compassion. I read in the book Altered Traits that this can be done fairly quickly.

Today's meditation was like a dream. I tried my usual shamatha breath at the belly and nose to get concentrated but every intention was met with resistance. Nothing seemed interesting enough to hold attention for more than several seconds.

After about 10 minutes everything became floaty and vague. It felt like I entered the world between worlds in the Chronicles of Narnia. The place with the pools that is hypnotic and mesmerizing. I had a neutral feeling about everything. Everything is interesting and yet I have no care or desire to focus on anything. Objects pass by but I forget them as soon as they fade away. I can hear external sounds from my family but they have no effect. 

I felt like I went from first jhana straight to fourth. And then from there who knows. There was no object so I have no reference for jhana.

Very interesting to say the least. 60 minutes passed by in what felt like 60 seconds. Perhaps I was in Equinimity. It's unclear. The majority of it was peaceful and neutral. However, the feeling of no object or ground was unnerving at times. My mind had nothing to grab onto and no desire to do so.

Now writing this, it left a lasting imprint on me. It feels like a near-death experience. 

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Today I went back into the black hole, although I was able to focus attention slightly. A couple of times I felt a shift as I intentionally focused attention forward through the murk. I also tried cultivating compassion from a diety/star and was able to successfully well up positives feelings. Towards the end I sat in open awareness and dropped anything that came to the front. 

I'm curious about how the samatha jhanas and the nanas overlap. I have a map that Daniel Ingram made that shows how the nanas are driven by the samatha jhanas. I wonder however, can the samatha jhanas move independently of the nanas? For example, can I be in first samatha jhana and also in the 5th nana or must I be in third samatha jhana to access the 5th nana?

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Today I had very strong concentration. I went from 1st jhana to 3rd and then to 4th. I was able to remain in 4th for some time. Then I dropped back into 3rd for a while and back to 4th. I tried to go into the formless jhanas but was unable. I haven't willfully been able to access those yet.

I spent about 30 minutes in jhana and then switched to cultivating universal compassion. I used the rest of my time on compassion and spreading it to others.

Something interesting that I've been noticing over the past few weeks. Thoughts that were once annoying to me have become to lose power. Whenever I would become interrupted by someone while I was doing something, I would experience anxiety or an annoyed feeling. Now instead I have been feeling pressure in my chest when these events occur without the attachment of thoughts and emotions. I'm not sure if this is temporary but it's definitely helpful in my current lifestyle. I have a busy family life with two small children and I'm constantly being interrupted. =)
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Nice, the onset of so-called "Teflon Mind" Thoughts more quiter, resolve more quickly, don't tend to have the pull they once had. It is a progressive deepening of that quality of thoughts that unravels. And it gets better and better both with progress in terms of perception (non-duality axis / MCTB2 revised 4th path model) as well as with energetic/emotional/psychological purification (one of these "other" axes that are different but somehow also interrelated )

I can relate to the kids bit - I have a 6 yo and 2 yo, and "Teflon mind" is an amazing upgrade for parenting

Sounds marvelous, keep going

Hi Kaloyan!

Thank you for your insight. It's interesting because I feel like when I'm cycling the poi that I have to relearn things that happened on the previous cycle but deeper. Every time I go through the DN and EQ I'm like "oh yeah, I forgot about this" or "duh I've been here before."

I love Teflon mind. Another interesting thing that happens in EQ is that time seems to pass so slooooooowly. I'm not sure why but the days seem to be twice as long. There's no suffering involved. I just think it's an interesting marker.

I'm going to enjoy EQ while I'm here. I'm leaving town for the next 5 days and going to the upper peninsula of Michigan. Should be fun!

6 and 2 years old is tough. Once the youngest child gets past 5 it gets a lot easier, especially since they are out of diapers.

-Cheers!

I went out of town for 5 days and just got home last night. My practice was a little spotty while I was gone.

Today felt like quintessential equanimity. Formations. I felt like I was formless floating in the sky. Imagery came and went on its own accord. Imagery was fluid and gaslike. One second I would see bacteria-like objects moving about, then they would morph into ocean waves. The ocean waves would trigger a memory from a boat ride. The ocean waves would then morph into winds and nebula in outer space. The dance lasted a full 60 minutes.

I didn't try to do anything but observe what was. I felt as though I had no desire to do anything but to watch the amusing shapes twist and turn in front of my eyes. 

I must be working up to high EQ!
 

Today my attention is paper-thin. It's like a translucent veil and any attempt to focus or control it is met with resistance. It definitely feels like I'm in high EQ. I watched myself go through shamatha jhanas 1-4. 4 was very nice. After four, I lost focus of any object. It felt like I was adrift. Even narration left me and I had no use for words. Words were meaningless and I could not categorize or characterize anything for about five minutes. Is this what it feels like to be reborn into the world?

That feeling faded and then it felt like I was back in shamatha jhana 3 for some time. Then I cycled through the shamatha jhanas again. At the end of my 60-minute sit there was no concept of my body or sensation. Things were just vaguely in the place where I felt them. At times I felt fear, peace, bliss, and many other things. Fear is not something that I feel often in meditation but I've had several deep insights from it in past cycles. This time there was a fear of the unknown. A fear of being untethered, of reality blinking out. Fear of loss of control.

Off the cushion feels dreamlike. I have not much motivation to do anything but chill. I almost feel like I'm high. It's a nice feeling, I know it won't last, however. 

I woke up with a very chatty and negative mind. I did my usual three rounds of Wim Hof followed by a two-minute cold shower.

On the cushion, it took about 30 minutes for my mind to settle down. I went into very hard 2nd shamatha jhana. My mind pretty much wanted to be in 2nd shamatha jhana for the majority of the sit. I leaned into it and built up as much sukha as possible. 

This is interesting because for a couple of months I've been working through a path cycle and based on today it seems like it has started over. It could be just a one-day occurrence that I'm back in A&P. I'm not sure.

This is perhaps the 5th or 6th time that I've worked through a cycle without cessation. I haven't experienced a cessation in over a year and a half, although I seem to be cycling nonetheless. I'm not sure what this even means. 

I have no expectations since it's quite normal for me to work all the way through high EQ and then have the path seemingly stop. Yesterday it felt like I was about to have a cessation, maybe I should have pushed through for an additional hour?

I limit my practice to 60 minutes per day. Maybe going longer would allow me to have cessations. I'm not sure. I have a family and small children so I can't spend more than this amount of time on the cushion for obvious reasons. =)

We'll see what today brings!

More cessations might not necessarily do it for you at this point. It can become just another form of craving. Inquiry can also be very important - investigating the one who thinks it gets to decide what, where and when to practice ...

I agree George! I've been through this cycle so many times that I've learned to not have the expectation of cessation. It's not first path and whether it's 2nd or 3rd I'm not sure either. I'm ignorant to the the nuances of the higher paths except that they don't follow a linear progression like first path. What's confusing is that sometimes it actually does follow a linear progression much like what is described by Daniel Ingram.

Thank you for your response. 

I'm not sure, maybe worth (re-)reading the revised four path model in MCTB. The sections on Daniel's own progress get kind of murky around third as well ...

It gets super murky around 3rd path for almost everybody it seems, was definately the case for me, and a lot of others that have shared their experience here and elsewhere. Being super analytical, goal-oriented, etc. male practitioner, I must admit that maps at this stage were pretty useless. Progress didn't seem to correlate to cessations either.

"Are you an "Arahant" - full non-dual agencyless, luminous interconnectedness etc. all the time, yay or nay?" is the only map that might be somewhat useful at this stage, and even that some would argue is not necessary, as it might create confusion and unnecessary expectations. This "Arahant, full non-dual" thing turns out to be completely different experientally than how we imagine it would be. At this stage there is so much inertia in the process, that it is bound to complete, maps or no maps.

As they say, before you were doing the practice, now the practice is doing you  

I will check this out! Thanks Greorge. 

Great insights here Kaloyan! I've read the parts MCTB about the insight stages and nanas so many times...

Sometimes I think that I could be on third path, but then I have a lot of doubts. Mostly because of my lack of knowledge and what I've read other people doing. Some people can dial up the jhanas/nanas instantly and switch between subjhana effortlessly like entering data into a spreadsheet. A lot of my practice feels like I'm subject to whatever is present. I have little control over where I'm going. I just sit and watch the fireworks. I'm also pretty new to meditation relatively speaking. 

I think you're right in that mapping is no longer a great way to track progress. I definitely am feeling as though "the practice is doing me." I'll go for a couple of months in which practice seems uneventful or boring. I'm able to explore new methods during this time. Then I'll go through a period of weeks or months and cycle through the nanas to a T and at that time I have no control over anything. 

Today was strange. I had no ability at all to concentrate. I just kept seeing the endings of things. Finally, I felt a shift about 45 minutes in and attention snapped onto an object and something released. Yesterday I went straight to a hard 2nd shamatha jhana and was locked in. Box of chocolates.  

I really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge. The spiritual path can be kind of lonely! I try to explain this to my wife and kids but it's like explaining a half-forgotten dream. Not interesting unless you were there. =)

I have a definite qualified teacher who can tell you whether you are in 2nd path/3rd path/arahunt. Contact me.

Hi Sam!

That would be great. Can you please send me an email? kellyweeks55@gmail.com

​​​​​​​Thanks!

Sent with you on it.  I think you will like it

Well it looks like I'm still may be in EQ. For a few days, it felt like my attention was changing as there was no consistency with what was occurring during my daily sits.

However, yesterday and today I would describe as dream-like. As soon as I close my eyes I automatically become attuned to energy. There are no objects that I can maintain. There are only memories, images, and feelings that arise and pass. I have no ability to maintain attention on sensations. Today I watched several memories from my college days surface and I relived them. However, it was almsot like a "what if" situation where I was able to watch the original memory and change the outcome to what I desired. 

It's interesting because I don't feel like I'm doing anything at all. It almost feels like bad/distracted practice. There's nothing that I can do as I have no control. It's like a VR movie screen but I'm in the body of someone else (actually myself) and I'm just watching things happen. 

It almost felt like I was going to have a cessation today, but I'm not sure what that even feels like anymore. Probably just an expectation. Yesterday and today my 60 minutes passed as if it were 60 seconds. I wanted to go longer. Alas, the children need feeding. =)

The kids go back to school next week. Perhaps I'll do some extra long sessions and see if I can complete this cycle!

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Hey, great to hear that some of the stuff I shared is helpful!
What you describe in your last message to me sounds like good practice and not bad pracitce. As part of the awakening process there is this intimately entangled emotional/bodily/psychological/karmic healing that happens. It is a very individual process, there doesn't seem to be one-size-fits all to it. At certain parts you will be drawn to energies, to "energy blockages" in the body, or to experiencing and releasing certain past events. These releases might or might not correlate with insights progress. There might be weird dreams, and also weird dream-like experiences of "psychic/astral realms" as part of your "waking conciousness". At certain points things will gravitate to certain jhanas or be very jhanic almost all the time - and it will seem like you can't even get out the jhana even if you tried.

I remember a 3-4 day episode where I was completely soaked in a slightly formelss version of 3rd jhana and literally couldn't get out of it, but had family stuff to take care of - I was preparing breakast in it, I was driving in it, my wife and I even made love once whilst I was in it...She said it was like "sleeping with a corpse". None of this is a recommendation, especially the driving in slightly formless 3rd jhana bit - seems a bit reckless in hindsight It is a weird journey, that's for sure. Having people to talk to and share experience is, is great - good that you are sharing these things with your family, even if they don't immediately relate to a lot of them. It certainly is much better than being completely "in the closet" about it.

Hi Kaloyan,

Thank you for sharing your experiences! I find them very interesting, especially the part about getting stuck in 3rd jhana. There were a few days last week when I felt completely spaced out. I would sit in my kitchen and stare out the window. I didn't have much motivation to get anything done. I explained to my wife that it was most likely meditation-related. She likes to answer with the question "why do you meditate again?" lol

Do you have a teacher? I'm meeting with one tomorrow to discuss my current practice. I think I may need someone that has seen the big picture that can direct me. At the same time, I'm not sure if direction is needed since at this point in my practice any effort besides just practicing is pointless.

 Anyway, I appreciate your feedback. I'm still in the "twilight zone" (EQ). I'm not sure if I'm stuck. It's very interesting to say the least.

Hey, good to hear that it is helpful! And good luck with the teacher you are meeting! 

I have a friend/teacher who is helping me with where I am and it is greatly beneficial, as she is very skilled with the things that I need and also I resonate with her a lot (https://rosalewis.co.uk/). For me the practice right now is heavily about the energetic/emotional/psychological/bodily/karmic purification and there still is stuff to do there. I untied the perceptual knot of duality 1 year ago, and it hasn't come back - so I am not doing vipassana, etc. anymore, as that doesn't seem to be beneficial right now. I didn't have a teacher at any point until I reached that permanent non-duality/MCTB4th path moment, and that is how things happened for me for some reason - not a recommendation. From my current perspective getting a teacher that is skilled and you resonate with personally is a very good idea.

I've been practicing as usual 60 minutes or more per day. I'm in an interesting place right now. It almost feels like my practice has started over. Like I just created a new character in a role playing game. I possess all of the knowledge but my skills feel beginner.

Shamatha is weak. Any attempt to apply technique seems redundant and pointless, shamatha or vipassana. Mind wandering occurs but I don't care. I redirect my mind sometimes but I also let it run its course. Everything is spacious. It just feels like floating. Attention shifts from one thing to another almost in slow motion. Unconscious thoughts are interesting. Practice is like a dream. Off the cushion is also like a dream. 

I've been in this state for about two weeks now. There's nothing that I can do but let it run its course. 

"There is nothing that I can do"

Maybe you could do Tonglen a la shargrol and throw into the pot the certainty or mind wondering or anything that seems of interest. Poke that sense of dreamy self a bit and see how it reacts to taking on suffering of others. Or not I will copy-paste it here in case you are interested

written ​​​​​​​by shargrol
"There is a version of tonglen that I highly recommend:

1. Find some aspect of your present experience that is lacking, is difficult, is suffering, etc.
2. Feel that experience. It can help to name it.
3. State the intention: "if there are any other beings out there that are experiencing this and having too much difficulty with it, may I experience it for them. May their experience come to me. May I fully experience it with no resistance. May they find relief."
4. Feel that experience again. Soak in it, dwell in it. Also imagine the joy the other feels being free of it and how they can gain perspective/insight because they now aren't overwhelmed by it. Go back and forth between you and other.
5. After a period of time that feels right, drop the intention and say, "May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy."

And then repeat the whole cycle again when it feels right.

The benefit of this practice is you are not taking on anything new, you're experiencing what you are already experiencing, but you are taking on what you are already experiencing with a much deeper intention that goes beyond yourself.  And it ends with a reaffirmation that we're all worthy of peace, awakening, and happiness.

Give it a try. And feel free to disregard if it doesn't seem like a good match."

Excellent! I'll try this tomorrow and let you know how it goes.

Thabk you! 

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I'm still practicing 60 minutes per day.

After coming out of EQ my clarity has become more and more vague. There seems to no longer be any separation between thoughts and self. It's as if they are one again. There is no space between thought and self. 

It's unclear what happened as nothing has changed in my practice or lifestyle. Perhaps I'm not getting enough sleep. It's unclear at this point. 

My practice feels like it has started over. Except now, any effort to do anything on the cushion is futile. Concentration is met with mind wandering. Vipassana, mind wandering, compassion, mind wandering. Just a couple of months ago I was practicing the jhanas with almost no effort. Now none of that is possible now. Everything seems to be one experience without effort or direction. 

The mind wandering aspect is interesting in itself. I don't feel like my mind is actually wandering since I'm not actually doing it. There is no grasping or aversion to the thoughts besides wanting to have single-pointed concentration. 

Example, I try to concentrate on the breath, seconds later I find my mind thinking about a memory or some other thought. There is no "ah ha" moment. No dissappointment, no wanting to further that thought process. I'm not sure if this is apathy or equanimity. It just feels neutral.

I recently got in touch with a teacher and we discussed doing some one-on-one consultations. She seems very helpful. However, I'm hesitant to move forward since it doesn't seem like any effort in anything will make a difference. It's like I've hit a plateau, and since the meditation is meditating me my efforts are futile.

Maybe give the "Look how its ..." practice a try? 

Look how it thinks all is futile. Look how it thinks it can not concentrate anymore. Look how it thinks it had hit a plateau. Look how its ... hearing. Look how its ... 

No rush but steady enough you keep at this. If it feels ok for you that is!  

​​​​​​​Best wishes K!

Thank you for this. Tomorrow when I practice I'll probe the source of these conclusions!

I've been practicing daily as usual. I've been using some caffeine before sitting to see if it helps with clarity. Interestingly it hasn't when in years prior it did.

My mind seems to be channeling into a specific place now. I'll be sitting in the dentists' office waiting for my kids' to have their teeth cleaned and I can channel into a deep state within seconds. As soon as I close my eyes I feel a sort of sinking/falling feeling and then I'm quickly at the bottom. 

There's nothing at the bottom. It's empty. No fireworks, no insights, just darkness. I can stay there for as long as I like but I eventually become sleepy. 

This channeling state was first discovered when I would lie on a bed and watch the ceiling fan rotating above me. I noticed that I could change the speed of the fan blades by zooming in or out on them with attention.  It seems that this perception has deepened and now phenomona simly vanish as I barely notice them.

It's an interesting place to be. My practice itself feels a little bit weak since there seems to be nothing of interest. Emptiness seems to be the defining characteristic with all phenomona. 

Yeah it's interesting how the mind seems to go through periods of relating more to emptiness and periods of relating more to form. Sometimes there can be an emotional undercurrent, as if emptiness has a slight flavor of withdrawal from the world and form is getting entangled with the world. There seems to be a sweet spot where you're enaged with form without getting tangled up in it because you are aware of the emptiness, but without reifying the emptiness either!

Interesting! Thanks George!