DAY 2024-05-12

​​​​​​​I did 30 minutes. I'm still at my mother-in-law's house. I didn't get to have coffee. I started feeling drowsy. It was strong at the beginning of the meditation. In the first 10 minutes, I tried to relax more, not to force the noting. After 10 minutes, I began trying to increase the speed, but tried to balance it, not pushing too hard, but increasing the speed. There was a moment when I was noting two notations per second, but it didn't go beyond that. At 20 minutes, the drowsiness increased a lot. I decided to open my eyes and note aloud. Even so, with difficulty, drowsiness, heavy eyes, I would close my eyes, and there were times I had to force myself to open them again, noting images, the desire to give up, difficulty in noting. I went back to observing the body sensations, but it was very difficult due to the drowsiness. Today is Mother's Day here, my wife and my children woke up inside, so I decided to stop.

Hmm... I still have the feeling that emotional tonality is going to be the thing that makes a big difference for you. There is a slight feeling of deadness that I sense and I'm not totally sure that "faster" is what is needed. I keep thinking things need to be more "juicy".

I think you are already very good at body sensations and quality of attention (energy, dull, clarity)... 

I predict that either or both of these might be helpful: 1) labelling emotions and/or 2) labeling sensations with positive, negative, or neutral.

For the first one, you might have to note more slowly and it might take a while to develop your own "notes" for emotions. It is very common for people to need to reseach "lists of emotions" to learn how to note in finer detail. 

For the second one, go right to the point of a sensation's arrising and notice if you are drawn to it (positive) want to avoid/push it away (negative) or if it seems unimporant (neutral). The point here is to really feel the juicy essence of things. Juicy juicy juicy.

Just some thoughts from random guy on the internet. Who knows maybe someone hacked my account and is giving out terrible advice -- only use what makes sense to you!

What you say have a big weight for me. Than I will follow your instructions.


Please, can you explain more this?

The emotional part was the challenge since the second day of my 10-day retreat. Do you think it's worth it for me to highlight the emotional patterns I experienced there?

Searching the internet for lists of emotions, the following was highlighted:
"Emotions are unconscious reactions, while feelings are a kind of judgment about your emotions."

In this case, then I need to note more emotions then feelings?

DAY 2024-05-13

"Today I did an hour of meditation. I started by relaxing my body, checking my posture, and observing my breathing. I slowly began to try noting, not forcing it. I set the intention to observe more emotions and feelings. Right from the start, I tried to observe feelings because I wasn't seeing emotions, as I understood that emotions are reactions to something external, or when internal, they are some image, some memory, or even a reaction to a sensation I'm having in my body. Then I realized that an emotion can be a reaction to a memory, a mental image, or a bodily sensation, or physical sensation. So, I kept observing. Initially, the feeling was one of tranquility, neutrality, and curiosity. About 10 minutes in, I noticed a sensation in my stomach. I looked at it and it was like nausea, it was nausea. I began observing this sensation. There was some... rejection. A rejection of that sensation in the stomach. So I continued observing. Investigating whether it was associated with something else. I thought it might be related to yesterday when I had a discussion with my wife. I think it might have been that, but anyway, I accepted it, let it go, left it there. And then I kept observing. Accepted, let go, left it there. It passed. Around 30 to 35 minutes in, the dullness phase came. But I was very present. I was perceiving well. I wondered, who is in this phase? And I managed to perceive quite a lot. Again, I was 90% conscious. So, I was aware, I wanted to note feelings, emotions, but couldn't. So, I sensed a feeling of discomfort, a desire to see more, but it wasn't there. It was limited, so I stayed with the bodily sensations. Awareness, I remember I was conscious. There was a loss of the center of attention, a feeling of sleepiness, but I was conscious, I was present, so I stayed there. I accepted, did not reject, because I was rejecting that situation. I saw a feeling of rejection. So, I maintained. Accepted. And around 50 to 55 minutes, the dullness passed, I returned to being attentive to the center of attention. Awareness of the center of attention. I was perceiving things well. Saw a feeling of gratitude. Of calm. That everything was okay. And so I finished. With an hour."

By the way, I might be making inaccurate judgements based on how the translation software is describing your sits... but it sounds like your last sit included a bit more investigation of the tonality of emotions which I think was good.

(It's always hard to judge other people's practice, which is why I make myself include the "I might be wrong" statements... )

But here's why I'm emphasizing emotions as a recommendation: In general, our thinking mind is what most adults identify with. "I am my thoughts, my thoughts are me." This is totally normal and fine, but when someone gets serious about meditation they need to see that thoughts arise on their own, almost like they are being excreted from the brain like moisture is excreted from the skin. Thoughts also serve to soften and manage our bodily experience. When we feel discomfort, our thoughts quickly fill in the space with plans on how to address the discomfort. Even when we feel pleasure, our thoughts quickly fill in the space on how to moderate it or get more of it. The actual discomfort and the actual pleasure is almost not as important as the thoughts themselves. 

I like the way you said it above, that emotions are the pure instinctual reaction and feelings are a kind of thought, it's a judgement about the emotion. So even feelings are a way to manipulate/moderate the raw experience of an emotion.

To make progress through the dark night and through EQ and to SE, there has to be a disidentification with the flow of thoughts (and feelings). There is no way to "choose" to do this. Basically the only way to develop the skill to let go of thoughts is to pay more attention to the raw and primal experience of sensations and emotions. This is why daniel emphasizes "staying at the level of sensate reality" in his pointers.

Basically, the more a person can experience the raw sensations of the body and the primal experience of the emotions, the more capable they become of dropping their identification with thoughts and feelings. It's not that thoughts and feelings are repressed, but rather the meditator becomes intimate with the actual things that trigger thoughts and feelings. 


And as a by product of this work, we also see that there are a lot of reactions to sensations and emotions that were previously unconscious and unhelpful. Does the emotion of anger make us want to fight the other person? want to run away? what to please the other person? want to freeze and avoid? What if we could stay mindful in the presence of anger and have all the options available? What if we could be responsive (have options) instead of reactive (forced down a single path). Etc. etc.

This is actually why the dark night is so important. In the dark night we learn from things like dullness/dissolution, fear, misery, disgust, desire for deliverance, and reobservation that feelings (thoughts about emotions) can't protect us from these raw emotions. We have to learn to be directly intimately with these emotions --- and then surprisingly, they don't trigger the same reactions anymore. If you don't resist, the "bad" emotions don't persist.

And in EQ it's important to learn to let go of the thinking mind itself. This is much easier after mastering the dark night experiences, but in EQ there can still be a tendency to "think about" EQ instead of directly experiencing it.

I've seen many smart meditators never quite break through EQ because they continue to try to "figure out" how to meditate better. In almost all of those cases, they tend to use the space of meditation to think about meditation, instead of focusing on intimacy with the raw and primal experience of body sensations and emotions --- even in EQ. The body sensations and emotions in EQ can often be disconcerting, as if we're "present" but can't really tell what the self "is" -- getting used to this almost groundless state is what prepares the mind to be able to jump to nibbana. 


​​​​​​​Anyway, that was a long post. Hope it is helpful in some way.

 

Very good, Shargrol!

I will continue trying to perceive and notice emotions more, as well as not forgetting about the raw sensations.

Thank you so much!

Barros, here is what helped me go through the DN, EQ and into SE, but also post SE. 

This is Kenneth Folk teaching in a few short videos (play list) how to note raw experience as it unfolds. All these aspects are very important to know and to know as they arise and pass away. BTW, Kennet Folk was my teacher, but also was teaching Shargrol and Chris and many others on this forum and else. The last video is Shinzen and that video helped me also understand this practice of noting and labeling matter of fact sensations. Its good to revisit these short videos, especially before the sitting session. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W30oR1UDBI&list=PLky8N7-NqOd95njMDZ3LD7-i24cqKmtQO

DAY 2024-05-14

Today I did 1 hour and 10 minutes. I began by relaxing my body, focusing on my breath. I quickly entered access concentration. Very attentive. Noticing well. Nothing distracted me. I was very alert to thoughts and emotions. I set this intention. And I found a mental position. A comfortable one, as if I had a position from which I could perfectly observe. When a thought arose, I noticed it and did not identify with it. Interestingly, there was a moment when an image appeared. A memory of an upcoming event. And my mind wanted to criticize that event. And I noticed it. I noticed anger arising from that memory. I precisely noticed it and let it go. It did not proceed. Another moment occurred. My son coughed, he was nearby. Another emotion arose. Of affection. Of affection. And I also let that go. In this first phase, everything was calm. Feelings of curiosity. Of tranquility, of peace. Of pride for being able to get things right. For notating well. At 35 minutes, the dulling phase came. My vision started to blur. The center of attention... was... shaken. With difficulty in noticing. I relaxed. Let it be, accepted the situation. Initially, I was feeling a rejection. A desire to change the situation. I accepted the situation. I reduced the types of notation. I noticed more the body, the energy. Body sensations. At 50 minutes, the phase passed. And a pain in my right ankle came to the foreground of attention. It was capturing my attention. I could only notice it, I looked only at it. Tried to relax, couldn't. The pain was bothering me. So, I decided to change position. The pain passed. I returned to relaxing, being at peace. There was nothing else to notice. Except thoughts. Then, thoughts of reaching one hour and quitting started. But I had time, today I started to meditate earlier. So, I said, I'll go up to one hour and ten. And then, I began to notice these thoughts of quitting. I was accepting them, letting them go. And it relaxed. And then, it was a phase of tranquility, but many thoughts of comments. Comments about the practice. And then, the challenge was to comment and not let myself identify with them. Sometimes they followed, sometimes I managed to notice them. So, that's an area to improve. This phase was calm, but many thoughts, comments about the practice. And at one hour and ten, I finished.

Cool Dusko! I will see. Thanks!

I forgot to mention that in the first 30 minutes, at the peak of confidence in noting everything, as if the notation was under my control, suddenly the speed of things arising that I was perceiving increased and I started to get anxious, as if I was losing control of the notation. It was like playing the Kazoo out of sync because the music started to become fast and complex.

I really like how you report on how things change by themselves like this. First it's one way, then it's another, then it is yet another. The world keeps turning. 

Thanks Martin :-)

A lot of the time the speed of things is dependent on being really initimate and direct with awareness of sensations/emotions. When you get very "close" to the actual sensory experience, it often speeds up in an A&P-like or Reobservation-like way. 

I'm watching very curiously to see if the speed aspect continues to occur. 

DAY 2024-05-15

​​​​​​​Today, I did an hour of meditation. Before starting the session, I watched Kenneth Folk's video on noting. The fourth video in the series talked about categorizing mental states and emotions. It really opened my mind about how to notice emotions and mental states. The aspect of the tone of sensations was also interesting, as well as the sensation of pressure, itchiness, and cold in the body. With that, I started the session. My mind was a bit agitated because I was thinking a lot about the subject. So I relaxed, let my mind calm down. After 5 minutes, I started to note slowly, and gradually the speed increased. I began to notice a lot of pressure, cold, and itchiness in the body. I usually don't pay attention to this. I saw a lot of this, noted a lot of it. The aspect of pleasure, neutral, or displeasure in sensations—I noted that a lot too. As for emotions, I was noticing tranquility and contentment. A lot of tranquility and contentment. There were moments of noticing a bit of confusion and dullness, but they were few. Today, there wasn't a phase of dullness, just moments of it. I noted the dullness, and it went away. I noticed blurry vision, but it didn't last. Today was very dynamic. I was noting well today. The speed of noting increased a lot. Today was progressive; it started slower, and towards the end, it increased and did not drop. Today, I didn't feel the drop, it just kept increasing at the end. There was a moment when I thought I was going to get absorbed. I was noting my breath a lot, the concentration was pulling me towards the breath, but it didn't go there. I continued noting, thoughts came, and I noted thoughts as thoughts. Today, I almost didn't identify with the things that arose. I can say that I had 80% noting and 20% identification. In other words, 80% non-identification with things and 20% identification. That was my feeling.

 

DAY 2024-05-16

I meditated for an hour. I started by relaxing my body, checking my posture, and observing my breath. Right from the beginning, I started noting in a free style, trying to observe the four foundations of mindfulness, but with greater attention to the tone of sensations and emotions, feelings. Up to 30 minutes, I have difficulty remembering how it was, but I remember having energy, calm, and contentment, but there was a lot of trying to note different things. I don't remember the speed very well, but I have the feeling it was fast. Well, here’s the part I remember. After 30 minutes, I had more moments of dullness today, my mind became duller. I remember my vision becoming blurry, difficulty in noting emotions, and I was noting a lot of bodily sensations. The five senses, mostly vision, touch, and hearing. A difficulty in noting things, the speed of noting decreased. Around 40 minutes, a lot of pain in my right ankle, it was calling a lot of attention, I spent a minute just noting the pain in the ankle, then I decided to change position. I changed, and after the change, I still spent about two or three minutes noting the pain, then it passed. The dullness weakened, but it was still present. At the end, I started noting more mental confusion. I was familiar with the noting, it was there, I was present. I saw calm, I saw awareness, I saw images, random images. They were not quite mini-dreams, but confusion, like: what am I doing? I found myself asking. Well, and it continued like this until the end.

DAY 2024-05-17

​​​​​​​Today I meditated for an hour. Before meditating, I was very sleepy because I went to bed late last night. I had thoughts that I wouldn't be able to meditate, that I would fall asleep. Thoughts like, for sure I would fall asleep. But at the same time, I had the thought that I had managed not to sleep before. So, I decided to try. I sat down to meditate. And to my surprise, which is great, I was attentive, sat with good posture, observing the breath, relaxing, feeling the heaviness in my forehead from sleepiness, feeling the mental and physical sleepiness in my forehead. I kept observing that. I didn't force the noting, I let it happen naturally because the idea was that I was doing more than my willpower. I was doing more than I expected. So the expectation was low, which made it interesting to see this. With low expectations, I was already doing a lot. I was seeing, I wasn't experiencing sleepiness—well, actually, I was sleepy, but I was able to note it, I was present. I felt the sleepiness, I saw it, but I was present, noting well. I wasn't having dreams, mini-dreams, I wasn't lost in reveries, I was there, present, feeling the sleepiness, and it was fine. And then the noting increased, I started noticing more things, but at their own pace. It wasn't at a high speed, I was noticing two things with each breath, each inhale, each exhale. Around 25, 30 minutes in, the torpor phase set in, which is natural. It usually happens. And then I started noticing mini-dreams. But I was accepting it well because, again, the expectation was low, I imagined it would happen, I was already doing a lot. So, I stayed like this until around 45 minutes, or maybe 40, having many mini-dreams but coming back, going and coming back, and I was clear about what was happening. After 40 minutes, I decided to open my eyes because I remembered, well, it's like this, but it can get better. I'll open my eyes and try to note. I opened my eyes, noting mentally, not out loud, and the energy improved, I wasn't having mini-dreams anymore. The sleepiness was still there, but I was clearer about what was happening, noting things well, and it stayed like that until the hour was up. So, I noted many things, I was accepting the situation. The situation didn't have rejection—well, actually, it did. Thinking back, I had moments of wanting to close my eyes, to sleep, but I noted that and it passed, it came in waves. Sometimes I was experiencing rejection because I was sleepy, wanting to close my eyes, and then it passed, and I noted it well, staying calm, content, with pleasure in the breath, feeling pleasure. Then the sleepiness would return and I would reject it. I was experiencing rejection but I was present and knew it would pass, and I continued like this until the end.

Good to know, Shargrol. Thanks!

I had switched to 'Tree View' mode here and didn't see your response.

DAY 2024-05-18

​​​​​​​Today, I meditated for an hour, starting by relaxing my body and calming my thoughts. Around the 5-minute mark, I began noting, starting slowly, noticing the natural pace, and trying to adjust the speed. Around the 15-minute mark, I started to have a certain perception of thoughts. I was looking more at feelings, thoughts, emotions. I began to notice thoughts because I was going through a phase of perceiving the solidity of the self. In the thoughts, I felt a strong sense of self. In bodily sensations, hearing, and vision, I did not have identification, I did not have this sense of self. So I was kind of comparing when I was noting bodily sensations, when I was noting thoughts, comments, comments about the practice, thoughts about the practice, a sense of self. This sense of self came along with discomfort. There was a stronger dissatisfaction, a discomfort. So I was kind of noticing this. It was interesting, this comparison I was making, seeing, between bodily sensations that I did not identify with as much, and the thoughts I saw, I identified with more, had a sense of self there. Well, I kept noting, and around the 30-minute mark, my vision became blurry, there were moments of uncertainty, difficulty in noting, confusion. I began to see impatience with what I was noting. I saw a feeling of wanting to correct the phase of dullness, the phase of numbness, impatience, anger, due to the difficulty of seeing things clearly. I felt a lot of anger at this moment. Even the baby crying inside was bothering me. I have so much love for him, and he was crying, and I saw feelings of emotion. And I began to notice that these emotions, they disappeared, the anger passed quickly too. I saw the anger fading away, but in the background, there was still a feeling of anger and impatience. There was an aversion at that moment. And I thought it might be the dukkhānas, so I accepted it more, began to accept the moment more. I stayed there, noting with difficulty, but noticing this discomfort, this underlying anger. And around the ten-minute mark, no, fifty-minute mark, it was the last ten minutes, this difficult moment passed, I began to see things clearly, the anger passed, the aversion phase passed. And I noted tranquility, calm, and as I noticed this, a feeling of gratitude came along, contentment, joy, gratitude. A feeling of gratitude came along, contentment, much contentment. And I stayed in these moments for the last ten minutes. The speed of noting increased, but when an hour was up, I had to finish.

Great work Andre. 

Thanks Bahiya!

DAY 2024-05-19

Today I meditated for an hour. I started by relaxing my body. Watching the breath, calming the mind. Quickly, I had access concentration. Very happy. With pleasure, feeling pleasure in the breath and in the body. But before 10 minutes... I started coughing. This cough of mine that's been around for a long time. Now it's getting better. I'm treating it. But I'm still coughing. And today I coughed. And it persisted for a few minutes. Around 5 minutes. It would come and go. And then I lost the momentum. And then my expectation dropped. I didn't notice it right away. The expectation dropped. I started having more thoughts. Daydreams. I lost the access concentration. Then, around 20 minutes... The dullness phase came. Blurry vision. Difficulty noticing. The speed dropped. I was struggling against it. I noticed myself wanting to correct it. With discomfort and aversion. Confusion. Impatience. Impatience with the moment of difficulty in noting. Not seeing things clearly. My son woke up. Came into the living room. Making noise beside me. I noticed anger. Impatient. Well. Then... A pain started in my right ankle. I began to notice it. Look at it more broadly. Let it dissipate. It improved. But, as my expectation was low. I was impatient. Due to, now, the various situations that were happening. People in the house waking up. I couldn't master the ankle pain. It was coming and going. Low expectation that I would succeed. I went more with sheer determination. With effort, with persistence. Until it reached fifty minutes. And so, I closed the meditation. After fifty minutes, I stopped.

DAY 2024-05-20

​​​​​​​Today I meditated for an hour. I started by relaxing my body and calming my mind. Around 15 minutes in, the difficult phase began, with difficulty in noting. It peaked at 35 minutes, with many mini dreams. I decided to open my eyes and start noting with my eyes open because I was becoming less aware. I was probably 70% aware and 30% not. Many random images absorbed me, causing me to lose awareness. So, I decided to open my eyes and start noting. I then noticed a lot of difficulty in noting. I could only note bodily sensations. In terms of hearing and vision, I noted a lot of dullness and a desire to correct. At the same time, I looked and saw the difficulty, thinking it might be the dukkha nanas phase, so I accepted it. When I accepted it, the discomfort diminished, and I went back to observing bodily sensations. I stayed there, accepting, but then a desire to change the situation came. It seemed like the desire for liberation, the nana of the desire for liberation. And I remained like that until the end of the hour, unable to get out of that phase.

Include and accept whatever appears in this moment. As it is. If it is difficult let it be difficult. If it is dull then include the dullness. 

It is easy to accept and include when the mind is sharp but as perception becomes more diffuse we can lose the simplicity of this approach because it no longer feels as good to just sit. We think 'things are "bad" and so I must be doing something wrong'.... No one ever thinks 'things are bad, I must be doing something right' 

​​​​​​​But sometimes this is the case. 

All part of the process. Keep it up. 

That is very true.

Yes. I am increasingly certain of this, and I am more and more persistent in continuing.

Thank you, Bahiya!

DAY 2024-05-21

Today I couldn't practice. My wife and son were ill, and I had to help.

Sending best wishes to you and your family! May they heal fast! 

We're already getting better. Thank you!

DAY 2024-05-22

​​​​​​​Today I meditated for an hour. I started by trying to calm my mind, noting slowly, and trying to naturally increase the speed. But today, I didn't have strong concentration. It was more diffuse. My attention was more diffuse. Around 20 minutes in, I entered the phase of difficulty in noting. My attention became quite diffuse. A blurry image at the center of attention. I realized I was in the dullness phase. I accepted it and continued noting what was possible, with low expectations. But I was accepting it. I had few moments of noting emotions of confusion, emotions of anger. There were some, but they were few because I was accepting the moment more. I had moments of mini dreams, coming back from illusions of random images. I accepted them well. I was fine with low expectations of coming out of that phase. So, I stayed there, accepting, waiting for the moment to come out of that phase. Noting what was possible. I continued this way until the end. There were moments of more clarity, then it would go back to dullness. And it stayed like that. But overall, the acceptance was good. And I can say I had 80% awareness of what I was doing.

DAY 2024-05-23

Today I meditated for 40 minutes. I did only this because I was reading about the dissolution chapter by Daniel Ingram, from the book "MCTB" by Daniel Ingram. I related a lot to what he said at the beginning and end of the chapter. So, I started meditating in this context. I related a lot because much of what he talks about, which you have also mentioned, is a phase where I have difficulty noting. I try to note quickly, and it frustrates me, makes me nervous because I'm not able to see much, I can't note. There are days when I can perceive very well, with a lot of clarity in what I am seeing, but there are days when I can't. It's as if things either appear very quickly and I can't catch them, or because my attention is very diffuse. It makes a lot of sense that the center of my attention is diffuse, I can't look directly at an object of meditation. And today, based on this, I started with a lot of humility in the practice, I wasn't able to see much, and I accepted that, I had a lot of acceptance. So, I had many moments of patience, noting patience, contentment, humility. I could note more the bodily sensations, sounds, which are basic, we can note them, but due to the tranquility, I even had moments of pleasure. And there was a moment when I tried to force the noting, tried to increase the speed, and ended up noting frustration, noting anger, noting confusion. Then I slowed down, came back, and said, I'm not managing, I won't continue this way. I slowed down to noting by inspiration/expiration, and then I was calm, stayed there, managed to maintain myself. And with this, I also didn't have moments of mini-dreams, or drowsiness. There was a moment of seeing very blurry images, not being able to note, I expanded my attention, didn't stay focused, trying to focus on that, and it was good because I was relaxed, I noted patience, tranquility at that moment, sounds, bodily sensations, noted what there was to note, looked. So, despite the 40 minutes being less than I usually note, it was interesting for me to see that when I don't force it, I have more acceptance and can stay more present.

I used the words "This is ..." when noting in the more difficult situations 

https://youtu.be/Pjg6vhMQ5H8?si=xvWceipOQbjyK565

I'll try. I think this kind of piques curiosity, the interest in perceive better.

Thanks Dusko!

DAY 2024-05-24

​​​​​​​Today I meditated for an hour. I started by trying to relax my mind, which was a bit agitated. Then, at around 5 minutes in, I began noting slowly, gradually increasing the speed. At the beginning, I felt tranquility, pleasure, and mental clarity, being able to note precisely and in control. Then, around 20 minutes in, I entered a phase of dullness, with difficulty noting and a decrease in speed. My vision became blurry, and I noticed imprecision, difficulty in noting, and uncertainty. Confusion set in. Today, I had less acceptance. I found myself trying to correct it. Trying to correct the lack of awareness, the lack of clarity. Forcing it. There was a moment when I caught myself asking, "What am I seeing? What is this?" several times, and then anger arose. I saw the anger of not perceiving anything. So, I let go of the anger, and it passed. Afterward, I watched the anger fade away. I noted a lot of anger and observed it disappearing. It also went away. I closely noted the moment of its cessation. Towards the end, I started feeling a lot of discomfort in my legs, pain, restlessness. I realized that the pain was accompanied by restlessness, the desire to stand up, to change position. After recognizing this, I managed to calm the restlessness and was left with just the pain. In the end, I wasn't noting much drowsiness. I forgot to mention that in the middle, at the peak of difficulty, I felt drowsy and had to open my eyes. And in the final phase, I was no longer drowsy. Things became clearer. The leg pain and agitation remained. Then the agitation went away, leaving only the leg pain. I noticed this pain turning into minor discomforts in my legs. It became more of a vibration. It was acceptable. So much so that even after an hour, I continued for a bit longer, feeling that minor pain. It was even somewhat pleasant in the end. And that's how I finished.

Can you relax the need to correct it? 

Can you just be with it? 

Can you face the reality of it and accept it?

Accept that something is wrong.

​​​​​​​Accept that this is suffering. 

Can you see the relationship, the connection, between the impulse to correct and the thing that needs to be corrected?

They play a style of music out in the jungles that goes "DukkhaDukkhaDukkhaDukkha"

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Today, there were times when yes, and other times when no. When not, it's because it wasn't obvious, and I only notice it later when I'm already experiencing significant dukkha. When I catch myself flagrantly doing it, just noticing it resolves it immediately. I have noticed that the expectations I set before sitting also greatly contribute to better acceptance or not.

I think I have improved in noticing and accepting this. So, I will continue practicing, focused on what has been my biggest obstacle at the moment. I think I am currently facing (being challenged by) the 5th nāṇa. And I have been working towards fully understanding it.

"Little strokes fell great oaks."

I'm not sure if I understood your question well. But I think there is nothing to be corrected. I just need to accept it. The difficulty lies in not yet having the perception to catch it in the act. This way, it turns into a big snowball, and I can't stop it from rolling downhill.

 Just an idea about dissolution nana:

An experiment you could try for just a ~week is to explore going deep deep deep into dullness and see how deep you can go. Not forever, but just for a week or so.

The reason I say this is that I have a hunch that, given your experience and practice habits, you really don't need to worry about maintaining attention --- it's a wired in habit. So if you allow your body to drop into dullness, with no shame, worries, or fears... I'll bet it transforms into something closer to the third vipassina jhana or even full-on third jhana.

The third jhana is very vague, diffuse, free-floating, ungrounded... and in it's mature form is cool and numb and blissy. (Not to be crude, but biologically speaking the third jhana is not the hot rapture/ecstacy of passion/sex/orgasm, but the cool gentle easy bliss of post-coital relaxation.) 

And it's funny, the chronic "dark night yogi" will often find, as a bit of a reward for all their suffering, that it is very easy to develop the cool bliss of the dark night jhana, AKA third jhana.

(The dark night is very much this kind of path. You think you are entering into a state that is "bad" or is indicative of "bad practice", but it is very counter intuitively exactly what needs to happen and you just need to go along with it. The way to truly have the "knowledge of" the stage of dissolution... is to fully experience dissolution by fully going INTO dissolution.)

And I can pretty much guarantee that just getting used to running these short experiments is also a very good skill to develop. A lot of progress comes from exactly this kind of personal experimentation.


Oh, and as an additional note... The skills that take the beginning meditator into solid practice and into an A&P experience and into the dark night... those skills just don't work in the dark night. You don't beat the dark night by more intense vipassina and intentional practice, you move through the dark night by going along with where meditation takes you.  You "follow", you don't "manipulate". 

Here's a good post from the olden days of Dharma Overground: 

How does a yogi know whether to practice samatha or vipassana?There are two very different instructions, depending on whether a yogi is pre- or post- fourth ñana. A pre- fourth ñana yogi, i.e. one who has not attained to the level of the Arising and Passing Away of Phenomena, must put his focus on penetrating the object. A post- fourth ñana yogi must concentrate. It's that simple. And the reason, in my opinion, that the western dharma scene has been so spectacularly unsuccessful in producing high levels of attainment in its students is that western dharma teachers give beginning instruction to intermediate and advanced students; they tell post- fourth ñana students to ratchet up the intensity of their vipassana, when they should be telling them to concentrate their behinds off.This, in my opinion tragic situation, is due to a misunderstanding that arose out of a cultural difference. The western vipassana scene, as exemplified by Insight Meditation Society, is influenced primarily by Burmese Mahasi-style vipassana. It seems that Burmese people, by and large, concentrate so well that it is difficult for them to learn vipassana. This, at least, is the conventional wisdom, and my experience in Burma in the early and mid-'90's led me to believe that it is, although a stereotype, generally accurate. Burmese yogis very quickly attain a deeply concentrated state and it is all the teachers can do to get them to look clearly at an object. Westerners, on the other hand, have no concentration whatsoever. We watch television, drink coffee, and obsess endlessly about our careers and our relationships. We are so goal-oriented that if you so much as suggest to us that there is something to gain by striving we will strive from here to eternity. When Burmese monks give instructions that were designed for Burmese yogis to American yogis, the result is too much effort and too little concentration. Without concentration, the strata of mind that contain advanced insight are never reached. This leads to the chronic achiever, as Bill Hamilton put it, the yogi that has attained to the all important fourth ñana, but is unable, year after year, to attain to the Paths.Once a yogi, whether American, Asian, or otherwise, reaches the fourth ñana, it is imperative that the teacher recognize this and change the instruction from effort to concentration. A post 4th ñana yogi is in no danger of becoming "lost in concentration." He or she has all the tools to deconstruct whatever object presents itself to the mind. The important thing now is to access the relevant mental strata. These strata are accessed through concentration. [Or as I would say instead of "concentration": these strata are accessed through >centering< with these strata -- allowing yourself to go deep deep deep into dissolution, for example.]

Source is: Jhana and Ñana - Wiki - www.dharmaoverground.org (and notice how he describes phase four of concentration as "your attention becomes even more diffuse and you become aware of the edges... [the object]  in front of you almost disappears."

More good stuff from the Hamilton Project: A Yogi's Journal: From Chronic Dark Night Yogi to 1st Path | The Hamilton Project

And from Kenneth Folk Dharma: Balanced Effort and the ‘Chronic Yogi’ – Kenneth Folk Dharma


Hope this is helpful to someone in some way.
 

Wow Shargrol, I wanted to comment on each part, but I won't because I'm very excited. I really liked the idea. I'll start trying this tomorrow.Thank you very much! I'm delighted to see how all you dedicate time to people here. How the Dhamma truly transforms people

DAY 2024-05-25

​​​​​​​I meditated for an hour. There's so much to say, but I'll try to summarize. First, before starting the meditation, I was watching a video of Kenneth Folk with a guy whose name I forgot. They were talking about entering the jhanas. It really touched me because, for me, it seemed impossible to talk and switch jhanas at the same time. To me, it's already an absurd thing to enter the first jhana without saying anything, just by being relaxed, super relaxed. Because I have this view from the forest tradition where jhana is almost impossible. This gave me confidence in what I'm feeling, in the relaxation I can achieve, in what I can accomplish. 

So, I started meditating with more focus on centering and concentration rather than noting. However, the noting practice is deeply ingrained in me. So, I noted what I thought was important without stressing too much about it. I noted to relax, and it was pleasant. I had access concentration right from the start, and it lasted the entire session. At the beginning, it was a strong, pleasurable concentration. Around 30 minutes in, I noticed my central focus becoming decentralized. The focus of attention was more diffused. But there was no drowsiness; today I was extremely energetic.
Around 35 to 40 minutes in, I started to feel pain in my knee, and if it weren't for that, I wouldn't have had any discomfort. I was very calm with the diffused focus because I had the expectation to let the dullness proceed and to just let it be. I had this idea of experiencing what needed to be experienced. So, nothing was bothering me except the physical discomfort in my leg. Because my focus was more diffused, I tried to concentrate on the pain, and the focus opened up again. I felt the pulsation contracting and relaxing. I observed it until I eventually let go of the pain and it dissipated, becoming a background sensation that was easy to bear.
My wife came into the room, having coffee. I noted her presence, my body, the tranquility, and the faint pain in the background. An idea came to me that I had achieved what I set out to do today, and with that came an anxiety to finish because I had already accomplished what I wanted. I noted this anxiety, let it go, and then the pain returned because I had somewhat accomplished what I wanted, and I relaxed too much, I guess. The pain came back, and I tried to let it go again but couldn't. Then I changed positions; the pain was strong. I changed positions, and the pain went away, leaving only that peace. I wasn't—oh, I forgot to mention—the diffused focus disappeared, and I had a centered focus, with a sensation in the middle of my forehead, focused there. A sense of peace, a blissfulness in the body, with nothing to disturb it. 
So I stayed with that until the end, noting my wife washing the dishes and feeling that bliss. I stayed until the hour was up and I had to finish.

When it's appropriate there is another thing try, and I really highly recommend this one too: instead of enduring pain while sitting, when you have body discomfort simply move your body slowly, really really slow, and slowly adjust your position to relieve the pain.

The idea here is that you are listening to your body, being respectful of the body, but not mindlessly switching positions --- instead you are continuing to be mindful of the body, mindfully noticing how the sensations change in real time, and mindfully responding in a caring way. In the meditation texts, this is often described as moving like an old or sick person. The idea is you don’t stop mindfulness, but you do take care of the body, and you do it by adjusting very slowly. It might take a minute to change your arm position and two minutes to switch your leg position. 

Yes, it’s true that some teachers and traditions talk about strong endurance sitting, and doing that is fine --- but it’s not something that needs to be done all the time. A lot of meditators want to make as fast progress as possible, and so they are willing to do anything, including strong endurance sitting.

But once you’ve proven to yourself that the mind can be strong when it wants to, then there is no need to keep doing the experiment. Many many many people have injured their body sitting in meditation. Especially joints/ligaments.

Notice that when we ignore the signals the body is giving, there is almost always “spiritual ambition” that says “don’t move, you won’t make as much progress if you move.” I know this very well from my life/practice. But I can also assure you that mindfulness can handle the body moving a little! The mind is very very fast, adjusting the body won’t destroy meditation. It’s really mean to torture the body.

80% of the time when I sat burmese style, my right leg starts would start falling asleep after 20 minutes and so I would switch legs slowly. It's so simple, no drama, no loss of mindfulness, no body injury, and I'm not being distracted by pain from the subtle sense of being/self that I'm studying. Sure, I also tested siting through the leg falling asleep... and all it got me was mindfulness of a leg falling asleep. And it took me over 5+ minutes to get out of sitting position and to be able to stand... so that I could switch to walking practice. If moving while sitting was so bad --- why were we doing walking practice???  

It’s very good practice to learn to slowly adjust and relieve discomfort. I’ll say its _essential_ for long retreats. There is no way to do a two week or month long retreat without adjusting – you’ll 100% definitely wind up injuring yourself.

So yeah, we all need to experiment with strong endurance sitting, but also learn the kind approach of slowly adjusting too. Otherwise it's too easy to develop a bad habit of ignoring body pain and reinforcing our “strong meditator ego”. We’re not trying to reinforce our ego during practice, but rather we’re trying to learn to drop our greedy habits and our aversion habits and our indifference habits.

There will be a day soon when you are feeling that bliss and slowly moving and you'll realize -- wow, my mindfulness is strong enough to slowly move! And in the future, you'll realize that you can also do it during walking meditation. And during real life! It's just a matter of getting used to staying centered while moving.

I thought this was really important to mention, feel free to ignore of course, but I do feel strongly about this. I really hope this helps someone avoid body/joint/meditation problems in the future.

This can be an opening to an interesting way of seeing. I imagine you could say all of what I am about to say yourself, but it's fun to talk about so hopefully you'll forgive me for fleshing out what your observation brought up for me. 

First, it's helpful to really deeply reflect on the fact that Kenneth Folk and Ajahn Brahm (I'll take him as an example of forest tradition folks) do not agree on what the word "jhana" means. They are both fantastic people. They are both clearly very good meditators who have benefitted from their own practices and who have helped countless people. Neither of them is foolish or deceitful, so it is very hard to come to the conclusion that one of them is "wrong." At the same time, it's a little tricky to say they are both "right," especially as their teachings include statements about what is and is not jhana, which contradict each other. 

It's worth considering how these situations arise.

In our practice, we often want to do certain things. We want to "meditate" or we want to be "mindful." We may have some ideas of aiming for "awakening" or "enlightenment." As we practice and study we learn about "concentration" and "nanas" and "jhanas" and, as we do, our understandings of all these things change. By the time we are learning what "jhana" means, our understanding of "mindfulness" is very different from what it was the first time we sat down to meditate. If there were no change in understanding, there would be no learning. One common way to think about this is to see ourselves as getting closer and closer to "the truth." The assumption here is that there is one truth, one understanding that is right, and another that is wrong. But that way of seeing does not do a good job of explaining what was going on for Kenneth Folk and Ajahn Brahm.

Here, we might consider that, if there is a change in understanding then, on the subjective level, the thing itself is changing over time. That is to say, the meaning of things like, "concentration," "jhana," "nana," "path," and "enlightenment," as they exist in our minds (and they exist nowhere other than in minds) are impermanent and subject to change. They are not reliable. If clung to, they will not provide satisfaction. 

On one hand, we can stop there, and simply say, let's not cling to these things too much. But another, kind of opposite thing we can do from here is to be a bit more deliberate in our conceptualizing. If we are not all heading to the same truth, even when we are using the same words, then the meanings of these words are subject to a certain amount of choice. The choices that happen around our understandings of these words can condition our practice and our experiences. So as we gently manipulate these insubstantial things, we can do so with respect for their transformative power. 

I understand and agree with what you said. Practically, as a result of following and believing in the forest tradition and the difficulty of achieving the Jhanas as described by the monks, I always downplayed my practice. I never believed much in it, thinking I was far from progress. Their practice is mainly focused on following the breath and calming the mind, without the noting technique. This hindered me to some extent. But with your help, I now understand and have adjusted my practice, and I have seen progress.

​​​​​​​Thank you Martin!

Yes, Shargrol. I had already been thinking about this, that slowly changing posture wouldn't interfere with my mindfulness. And as you mentioned, I end up being mindful only of the pain, the pain in my leg. I focus only on that. I don't learn other things. During the 10-day Goenka retreat I attended, there was one session where I tried to stay still the entire time without moving. I felt a lot of pain, but I thought, no, I can't move, it's a matter of progress. After I returned from the retreat, I discovered that I had developed numbness in part of my foot. It lasted for about a year, but now it's back to normal, though I had that issue.

Thank you so much!

DAY 2024-05-26

Today I meditated for 40 minutes, less time because I overslept, either the alarm didn't go off or I didn't hear it. I woke up very late today, so I meditated with the time I had. As a result, the situation was different; when I started to meditate, my wife entered the room with the baby, who hadn't started yet, and she began to talk to me, knowing I was about to meditate. I said, "No, you can stay here, it's no problem." And with the baby in front of me, with my wife, I started to meditate. And it was interesting because, once again, like yesterday, as I have been changing, without creating expectations, I even felt more confident that I was having strong concentration, strong mindfulness, and strong full attention. I wanted to test it, so I said, "Let's see if it's really strong." And with that, without expectations, but seeing it as an experiment, let's see what happens, what I can do with the situation I have, which is the goal of the practice itself, to be with the moment and be well with the moment. So I started very positively, also anchored in yesterday's results, changing perspectives a bit, changing the way I see meditation. So it was very good because the baby playing in front of me also brought me happiness, seeing him happy, my wife happy at that moment, I also used that to relax, I heard him, noted it, noted my body being calm, noted my concentration deepening. At first, he caught my attention a lot, but he gradually became background noise, playing there and I anchored more in an inner tranquility. It was very interesting to perceive these changes in concentration. There was a moment when my concentration became very diffuse, as it has happened before. I stayed there, but at one point the baby fell on his back, he was sitting, fell on his back on his mat, got scared, started crying, I got worried, slowly opened my eyes to see what was happening, but everything was fine, I closed my eyes again, my concentration was shaken, but then I regained focus. Again, there was no drowsiness, no hint of drowsiness, the concentration was changing all the time, deepening. But after 40 minutes, I had to stop because we had commitments, but again it was a very good experience, and I keep this idea in my mind of experimenting, experimenting and everything, experimenting and progressing, as you have guided me, so I am fine with this idea in my head and it was very good, these different experiences have been very good. And this different way of meditating, with a less forest tradition view, has helped me a lot.

DAY 2024-05-27

Today I meditated for one hour, following the same scheme of focusing more on concentration and centering rather than insight. I started by relaxing my body, observing my breath, and noting as my mind was agitated. I use centering as a base but also mix it with noting, doing so naturally without forcing the pace. It's a mix of noting and centering. By noting and observing, I quickly entered access concentration. Within 10 minutes, I was calm, with some effort at first, but the effort diminished, and by 15 to 20 minutes, I was well-centered without effort. I observed the characteristics of being calm, not using effort, with strong centering and access concentration. I felt a lot of calmness, happiness, contentment, pleasure, and gratitude.
Around 25 to 30 minutes, I noticed the center of attention becoming diffuse, and the image blurry in the center of attention. As I have become quite familiar with this state and unconcerned, especially after Shargrol's tips, I no longer worried about it. I just observed it; it felt natural to me, becoming increasingly natural. I looked at it and started to look at the edges of the visions I was having, perceiving broadly and with awareness. I could notice other things, so I no longer worried. I was there, very present, with a lot of energy, and without any drowsiness. Previously, drowsiness was an expectation I created. Well, as I'm gaining confidence with this, drowsiness might still happen, but I'm getting familiar with it, and it no longer generates drowsiness. I wasn't falling into the trap of focusing on the image because I used to try to focus on the center, using the old method of having an object of concentration that I looked at directly. Now, in a broad, diffuse way, I can notice other things and anchor myself in them, so I no longer feel disoriented or confused. This has been a big leap, allowing me to maintain my practice. This phase also passes quickly now, and I stay there, having other moments of perception.
Around 40 minutes, I started to feel the need to cough. I tried to hold it in but couldn't and coughed, which shook my concentration and agitated my mind a lot. I noticed it, returning to the state as if it were the first jhana, comparing because I had to put in effort, but without putting in effort, I realized I was there but calm again. I felt like I had returned to another layer of the mind, so to speak, and then I was calm. I resumed noting, and then I started to rise again. I noticed myself being calm and concentrated, returning to the diffuse state, then passing that state to become very concentrated, seemingly with equanimity. I stayed in that state—calm, grateful, with a lot of concentration. I felt a slight pain in my leg, but it was even pleasant and didn't bother me to the point of wanting to change position. I thought about changing, but it wasn't necessary; the slight pain was very tolerable. I stayed there until the end. After one hour, I didn't want to leave that state; it was very good. Today, I reached a level of concentration, gratitude, and equanimity that I think I've never experienced before.

Nice!!

(Out of curiousity, what advice would you give your former self in dealing with dullness?)

Cool stuff!

Great question!

First of all, the most important thing was to understand and familiarize myself with the diffuse state of attention. I didn't understand what I was experiencing. I thought I had lost concentration. I was confused and didn't know how to behave in that state. Since I only knew how to focus on an object and anchor myself to it, when I lost it, I didn't know where to anchor or how to handle it. So, I would see the image blurry or dark in front of my vision, and if I focused on it, the dullness increased and turned into drowsiness. Only with time did I become familiar with what that was, and with the help of all of you who pointed out what it could be. A state of concentration where attention is diffuse. I kind of suspected it was that, but I didn't know how to behave in it. I became confused, nervous, and tried to put in more effort, which I believe drained me energetically and caused drowsiness, worsening the situation.

But your advice to let myself go deeper into the dullness took away the anxiety of experiencing it, of letting it happen. And after experiencing it without worrying about what would happen, it opened the door to understanding how I could behave in it. I learned not to focus on the center, to focus on other emerging elements while still being aware of everything. I notice that I still have awareness, sati, energy, calmness, that I have sensations on the periphery of the body to observe and, above all, I now have confidence that I can stay there without losing sati. And when I remain calm and without forcing it, the state passes. The more I accept it, the faster it passes. I used to get nervous when I noticed I was losing awareness.

And today it was great to realize that I can still deal with the regression of the concentration state (when I coughed). Even though I wasn't so centered, I still had sati. And without interfering, I was able to go back to deepening my concentration/centering.

Thanks Olivier!

Another important point that I forgot to mention is that I had to balance more concentration/centering and less noting.

Very insightful! Goes a long way to show how difficult "teaching" this stuff and figuring out what is helpful for someone else is, but when someone is willing to do experiments and figure it out for themselves with some pointing from others then things can move pretty quickly. It's very different from, say, taking a pill for a specific medical condition. There is something about empowerment, as the person administering the "cure" has to be the practitioner themselves, and so the rapport is very different than with, say, a medical doctor, who knows more about what's going on with your condition than you do, probably. Fun stuff.

Very interesting Andre to hear your side of it.

From my side, I was wondering three things:
1. Is he sitting too long and simply getting exhausted?
2. Is he dogmatically "demonizing dullness" (which is very common from people coming from a TMI-oriented practice)?
3. Is there some kind of psychological repression occuring, perhaps an emotion of anger or an experience of past trauma?
(I suppose the fourth option would a mixture of some/all of these.)

Obviously I don't know you as a person, so I was just watching to see if something was going to happen in your practice that was strong enough to stop you from practicing --- then there would be a major underlying problem. But it seemed like you just had some smaller resistances and these became clearer in time.

Yes, Olivier. Empowerment and the willingness to experiment were very important.

Shargrol, it was something close to item two, because I didn't understand the concept of "diffuse attention," as I've never seen it addressed the way I found it here on the DhO. As I mentioned, in the forest tradition, I didn't find how to deal with it. Especially because there, we don't have the help that we have here.

Well! Now I need to keep practicing as I will have other challenges ahead. At least this one (dullness) seems to be well on its way.

Thanks so much!

Diffused phase is a good thing after a phase of being centered and very clear. 

It's a progress onward. good stuff because centered then diffused leads to equinimous and then highly equinimous and then stream entry and beyond. 

Do not cling to any of these stages (or states). It is what it is. That's all. Nothing less and nothing more. 

I think you are practicing very well! 

If you experience negativity off cushion then go through those Kenneth Folk videos I linked to. Those videos helped me not give up when shit hit the fan (Irish for bad things happening). 

Sending you sincere best wishes my friend!

After my 10-day Goenka retreat in July 2022, I went through a month of severe depression. Then it got better, but I still had all those psychological problems from the dark night for a year. Currently, this is well overcome, and I think I've developed resilience to endure what is to come.

​​​​​​​I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you, @che, for encouraging me to start my log here. I had been with a teacher for a year who wasn't able to help me much, partly because he had many students and could only respond to me once a month. And in just three months, you all here managed to help me. Thank you very, very much!

Goodman yourself Andre!  

DAY 2024-05-28

Today I meditated for an hour. Like yesterday, I tried to focus more on centering and concentration than on noting. I started by relaxing my body and observing my breath. I noticed my mind was a bit restless, but using noting at a natural pace, it gradually calmed down. Around 10 minutes in, I felt my mind was calm. It had energy. There was still some effort to maintain concentration, some tension. But quickly, it shifted to a diffuse attention mode. I was even a bit confused if this could happen because I didn't feel that moment of the fourth Nana. Of effortless meditation, bliss, and pleasure. I didn't feel that phase. It jumped straight to the diffuse phase. And I felt my eyes a bit heavy. The dullness phase. So, not knowing what to do, I went back to the idea of letting the dullness proceed, letting it turn into whatever it would. And I stayed there trying to observe the edges of my attention, noting that there was calm, that there was awareness. But even so, today I still had a bit of drowsiness. I saw about 10% unconsciousness and 90% consciousness. So, I'm still not entirely familiar with how to handle the diffuse attention phase. This diffuse phase lasted practically the entire session. I had a moment where it seemed like it was going to end. I felt a sensation pulling at the center of my forehead. A sensation pulling my attention and it seemed like it was going to end. But it didn't last long. I went back to having diffuse attention. Perhaps a bit of tension, discomfort still with what was happening. Still familiarizing myself with this phase.

Whenever uncertain or confused about how to proceed in any stage or state, go back to the BODY SENSATIONS as your basic re-start point Always have that ONE favorite point to go back to. Scan the body gently and see if there is anything prominent there. How does the skin feel? Can you feel the legs and arms? Are they heavy or light? .... and so on ...