I'm practicing with the aggregates again (not mine, not I, not my self) and trying to get in more detail.

So here are the 5:

1. Matter (Where I am)
2. Feeling tone (How I am)
3. Recognition/Perception (What I am perceiving)
4. Volitional formations (Why I am acting)
5. Consciousness (Whereby I am experiencing)

x 4

1. The aggregate is a self
2. The self possesses the aggregate
3. The aggregate is inside the self
4. The self is inside the aggregate

So 20 forms of self. The #2 on the second list is interesting in that it is similar to #3 but it simply possesses the aggregate instead of the aggregate being located inside the self. I think that focusses on the "mine" aspect of clinging.

Are there any more that would be helpful to investigate?

Thanks for posting this! If a sensation seems to be inside me, are there sensations that seem to be me? It has been said so many times, but now I got it deeper. Nothing has seemed to be me directly, but I have not investigated these indirect selfs systematically.

It takes time but thoughts and perceptions so far are weakening in feeling like a self. Consciousness is still persistent with the feeling. Feeling tone still feels like a "me". Matter was the easier one. What's disconcerting is Shaila Catherine's list of different Kalapas which I guess came in later texts, which has 28 materialities alone.

Earth
Water
Fire
Wind
Eye-sensitive
Ear-sensitive
Nose-sensitive
Tongue-sensitive
Body-sensitive
Colour
Sound
Odor
Flavour
Femininity
Masculinity
Life faculty
Heart
Nutriment
Space
Body intimation
Verbal intimation
Lightness
Malleability
Workability
Productivity
Continuity of materiality
Aging of materiality
Impermanence of materiality

Complex.

Did you mean that Shaila Catherine's list is not covered by the initial list of 20?

It is but it's more detailed and complicated than just recognizing if something is a perception or just matter.

Check out the vimuttimaga...I've been looking at these there and trying to see what is pragmatic and what is philisophical....interesting stuff...
Good luck
~D

Yeah I've been avoiding older sources and have been sticking to general books (though good ones). I suppose if one is patient you can go though these aggregates one at a time but to go through stream-entry all of the aggregates have to FEEL empty to really say you've gotten that far.

I'm going with a staged approach to this list...trying to map to the MCTB 1-4 paths. Depending how you define stream entry it
could be all of them of course.

Vimuttimagga list from page 234

FOUR PRIMARIES
Earth
Water
Fire
Wind
DERIVED MATERIAL QUALITIES
Eye
Ear
Nose
Tongue
Body
Matter as sense-object
Sound as sense-object
Odour as sense-object
Taste as sense-object
Femininity
Masculinity
Life-principle
Body-intimation
Speech-intimation
element of space
buoyancy of matter
impressibility of matter
adaptibility of matter
integration of matter
Continuity of matter
Decay of matter
Impermanency of matter
solid food
The basis of the material element
The material quality of torpor

They subcatagorize pretty good. I'm going to work them into the flowchart in my other post. Skandas
At least some of them. The ones I consider pragmatic (or can understand and think have meaning).