So what are we saying here, Buddha was wrong, there is something that is permanent ? If this so called actual freedom state can last all of this life, what happens in your next if you don't become aware of AF practice ? Are you not just stuck on some form of pseudo jhanic state ? I realise I may be kicking up a lot of dirt here, but from the perspective of one who is maybe new to meditation and visits this site two things stand out. Firstly, Wow, so many enlightened beings in one place, look how quickly they become arhats. Secondly, Wow, they seam to have done a complete 180. Maybe what was really happening is the egotistical rantings of intellectuals, without a single genuine spiritual experience between them. If however, genuine arhats exist here and they have realised that buddha was wrong and AF is the way to go, why still have a site based on the buddha's teachings ? I have read Daniels book and find it the finest amalgamation of the teachings.

Hi,



A question more relevant to a forum dedicated to the practical matter of the eliminating suffering is: why does it matter?



The first question posed does not have an answer because it is based on a view which is not in accordance with actuality (e.g. there is no next life). To the second: no.



You may indeed be kicking up a lot of dirt, as it seems you are lost in a cloud of views, all of which resolve themselves (or are no longer a problem) after experiential insight is attained.



That may be...I suppose you will have to attain to these matters yourself so as to see, eh?



As I have never said that the buddha was wrong, I'll leave this to you to answer.



Okay then, how is it that you are now using Daniel's book to eliminate your suffering?

Trent

(1) *Ahem* the AF condition isn't permanent (AFree people die too, ya know?). (2) Only a "problem" if you believe in reincarnation.

By the way, the only people I know of, who seem to regard AF as 180 degrees away from buddhism are people who have come across buddhism in its more mystical-religious form ("I am god/emptyness/everything/the source/whatever") --- we could call it "unitive" buddhism (and just because we call it buddhism, doesn't mean buddha said anything similar). This does indeed seem very different from AF. But for me going towards AF was a very natural result of doing vipassana (the all-time unexcelled buddhist practice).

What did buddha say exactly, that you believe "we" are saying was wrong?

A question more relevant to a forum dedicated to the practical matter of the eliminating suffering is: why does it matter?


It's matters initially because impermanence has a great deal to do with the teachings.



The first question posed does not have an answer because it is based on a view which is not in accordance with actuality (e.g. there is no next life). To the second: no.

If there is no next life why would there be stream entry, once returner non-returner ect...



You may indeed be kicking up a lot of dirt, as it seems you are lost in a cloud of views, all of which resolve themselves (or are no longer a problem) after experiential insight is attained.

So we have been told.



That may be...I suppose you will have to attain to these matters yourself so as to see, eh?

Thats all one can do.



As I have never said that the buddha was wrong, I'll leave this to you to answer.


Don't take that to literally, however the apparent eagerness displayed hear for AF would seem to suggest Buddha missed something.




Okay then, how is it that you are now using Daniel's book to eliminate your suffering?


The same as I would use anyone else's views and opinions.

(1) *Ahem* the AF condition isn't permanent (AFree people die too, ya know?). (2) Only a "problem" if you believe in reincarnation.

Supposedly permanent in this life. Believing or not believing in reincarnation will not change weather reincarnation is real or not.




What did buddha say exactly, that you believe "we" are saying was wrong?

see above.

A few points here.....

1. Yes, Siddhattha Gotama is dead and has been for a long time. That's life. AF people die too. That's life. You and I will die. That's life. Do you think that any system of attainment will lead to humanity overcoming death? No. Why? Because that's life. Regardless of whether you're an Arahat, an Ipsissimus, Buddha incarnated or the Grand High Master of whichever whatever you're into, the body will die. Physical law on the physical plane. If you're born into a physical form then that form will die. What's left after that is another matter but in material terms, when you're dead you're dead.

As for AF being more "true" than Buddhism, only another few decades, centuries or millenia of experience will clarify this. In this regard, I stick with what Hassan i Sabbah said: Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

2. Anyone could claim to be enlightened, it's just a name for seeing clearly. Don't get me wrong, I'm occasionally skeptical of some of the people on here who claim to be Arahats but whether they are or aren't is of no consequence to me unless I choose to blindly accept what they say as fact. Why is someone else's attainment, or claims to whatever, of interest to you?

Daniel's book is excellent and has quickly become one of my all time favourites for it's simple, practical and no-bullshit approach. I totally agree that it's a fantastic amalgamation of what the Buddha taught, but it's only a beginning for those of us interested in pursuing this particular map and points to some other wonderful sources for knowledge of the subject. I do think that if you followed the techniques in MCTB that you will attain Arahatship but it's dependent on the effort and commitment you put in. Who am I, or you for that matter, to make a judgement on someone's level of attainment since it's only ever going to be based on our own expectations and preconception to what that specific grade/path is all about.

Unless you've attained to this level yourself then you will be unable to ascertain if someone has/hasn't attained it.

3. In my opinion, and bear in mind that it's only an opinion, enlightenment and AF are two seperate "things". To compare them is incorrect until you have experienced both, anything else is speculation until you have an experiential basis. It's a fair point you make about the "egotistical rantings of intellectuals, without a single genuine spiritual experience between them", but only your own experience of this path will show you whether or not this is the case. The map is not the territory it's describing.

Look, here's how I see it and I've found it useful to minimise my own suffering.....Don't worry what other people are doing.

If they're delusional arseholes then so be it. Ask yourself how that affects your own experience of the world. You're wasting time and energy which could be better directed to practice, practice, practice and THAT is the ONLY way to see for yourself what's really going on. People on DhO will offer you advice and help, it's up to you whether you accept that or not but to disregard valid advice from people who have genuinely walked this path before you is downright fooolish. Exercise caution but remember that blind skepticism is as pointless as blind faith.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

A sensible reply Ident. In what way would you say enlightenment and AF are different ? If enlightenment is seeing things as they are, Is AF some sort of blind bliss trip ?

About AF being something "permanent" and Buddha being "wrong"... consider that once you have attained Stream Entry, you have "permanently" attained Stream Entry. Once you're an Arahat, that too is a "permanent" shift in the way of looking at things. AF is similarly "permanent" in that it's a shift/unshift in perspective that lasts "forever" - that is, until you die.

About re-incarnation, we're not in any position to discuss that. Why is it called Stream-Entry, Once Returner, etc? That's what Buddha decided to call it. One might as well say 1st path, 2nd path, etc.

Did Buddha miss something? I don't know. The AFers seem to have found something more satisfying than Arahatship. Good for them =). Ultimately it's about you being happy. When I look at Arahats talking, and AFers talking, the AFers seem happier to me, and actually closer to the traditional model of Enlightenment with eliminating the ten fetters, etc, so that also pulls me in that direction.

I have experienced neither Arahatship nor AF, so people who have should correct me, but it seems to me like Enlightenment is realizing that things are as they are, and AF is realizing that there is no reason to be unhappy and malicious ever? Kind of like, Enlightenment reveals all the human mechanisms of pleasure, pain, suffer, worry, happiness, etc., as they are, but AF says "you know, these are pretty useless for me. I don't want to experience them any more."

Having not attained enlightenment or AF, I can't make any comparison and have no interest in doing so. There's a very interesting thread on here where Daniel compares his own experience of the world as an Arahat, and then does the same while in a PCE and the apparent contradictions raise some good questions but questions which could only be answered by personal experience of both "states".

I don't think of AF or PCE as being jhanaic or even remotely related to Buddhism but the fact that at least two people who's claims of Arahatship I actually trust can testify that these are two different ways of "being" is enough to convince me of their validity. At present, I'm more interested in working towards Arahatship than AF but I think it's an equally valid path if one chooses to pursue it.

Either way, arguing about the specifics without experience will lead nowhere. Perhaps it is a "blind bliss trip", perhaps not, perhaps it's both. Contradictions collapse after a certain point anyway.

Check that thread and see if it helps clarify things in any way but just stick to what you're doing and you'll find what you're looking for. : )