I could probably write a million word essay, but I will try to make my history for this question for advice as brief as possible.  Writing out of Seattle, Washington, Age 33.

2008 - I think this started out as a non meditation induced situation.  I had a breakup with a girlfriend where she told me she cheated on me, and in that moment I was told about it, I completely froze.  I knew things like this happened, but it was the whole "this will never happen to me" feeling.  It felt like I died.  Everything I knew about life was shattered in one moment.  After that I had depression and panic attacks non stop for a year and a half, so I ended up finding meditation as a way to deal with it.

2010 - I read and listened to a lot of books in the vipassana method of meditation, and focused with complete surrender on the breathe going in and out of my belly for about 1 hour per day for 2 years.  Each day that passes with every meditation session I slowly descend into an intense state of depersonalization/derealization.  At first I think I am achieving a great mental state because I no longer am experiencing physical anxiety or emotional pain.  But after awhile it gets more intense.  I lost the ability to make eye contact with people and connect with people or nature at all.  A state of just complete nothingness.

2011 - Physical problems develop severely.  I get chronic fatigue syndrome, I can no longer exercise, my body does not ever fully calm down and rest and regenerate, no amounts of meditation can help.  My body also becomes insanely sensitive to all substances.  A 20th of an antidepressant causes intense brain tingling sensation so bad it hurts.  A small puff of cannabis does the same thing.

2012 - I find a naturopath who turns out to be a sort of spiritual mentor for me, and he says what I am going through is called "becoming a spiritual adult".  He lists all the symptoms I have before I even tell him all of them.  I am at first relieved to find someone who knows what I am going through!  That is short lived however, as he says he cannot help be my teacher for this phase because he is not qualified.  He did an acupuncture called neural therapy on my brain and it helped a bit with derealization.  I then took a homeopathic called Arnica that helped me get my eye contact with people back, but I am still only 50% better from dp/dr

2013 - After a year in limbo not knowing what to do, I eventually get so overwhelmed by the situation that I go on a mood stabilizer and an anti anxiety medication.  It helps my mind calm down and I actually feel like I can focus better and feel more grounded, a very paradoxical reaction.  I completely stop meditating as it makes all dp/dr and depression symptoms worse.

2014- Present
I spend a year doing nothing but being outside all day, trying to ground myself using every grounding technique in the book.  On a good day I feel about 50% normal cognitively and emotionally in connection with myself.  However, I eventually give up trying so hard grounding after a year of dedication, because it really takes a lot of will power, and it doesn't seem to be "the answer".

I spend the years alternating between not trying anything at all, and trying things such as shamanic rituals, as well as advanced homeopathy.

Keep in mind, this whole time since 2012 I have not been able to meditate without feeling intensely worse in depression and dp/dr.

Presently - I cannot meditate for more than 5 minutes without contributing to worsening dp/dr and depression for the rest of the day.  I can't do even the most simple counting meditation without entering a terrible mental state.  On the physical plane my chronic fatigue syndrome has constantly progressed so now I can only walk a gentle mile with no hills, or else I get post exertional fatigue on the physical, mental, emotion, and spiritual plane. 

It really feels like there is something I need to do, I just don't know what the heck it is!  I feel like I need someone who knows exactly what is going on with me, and that can give solid advice.  I would say the gradual increase of sensitivity of my brain that keeps on getting worse is something that I wish I could meet somebody that knows about it, as that is one of my most disturbing issues.  I haven't met that person in the 8 years I have been looking.   "When the student is ready, the master appears", any advice on where I should look?.  

I saw someone mention cheetahhouse.org for this type of situation, but any additional insight on my condition or advice here would be grately appreciated.  I am so thankful for anyone who reads this dang wall of text and is able to respond.  God Bless.

This is what I found in the MCTB book that could be a clue to how to deal with my situation.  It could explain what my situation is, but not how to reverse it.   On my style of surrendering to my breathe, this could be an explanation for what I was doing:

"...they hold their emotions at arm's length and cultivate immunity or passivity to them... However, instead of cultivating actual equanimity, they accidentally cultivate denial, repression, dissociation, depersonalization, derealization, and a stabilized illusion of some split-off and distant or "objective" observer."
MCTB Page 56 ( I have not read the book, just searched it for dp/dr segments)

Can I reverse this?  Or am I in the the classic situation that the zen saying goes as "Better not to start.  Once started, better to finish."?

Hey Robert,

It might help to think of there being two separate lines of development: ‘waking up’ and ‘growing up’. Waking up refers to spiritual development, such as through meditative practice, and growing up refers to our own psychological development, which psychotherapy addresses. Many people turn to waking up practices for issues that can only be addressed with psychotherapy, however the danger in that is that waking up practices can actually exacerbate underlying issues such as unresolved trauma or developmental derailment, as meditative practice can be quiet destabilizing if our psychological foundations have not yet been firmly established. 

It sounds as if you had a dissociative response to the emotional impact of your girlfriend cheating on you, which while devastating can occur if you are not able to fully regulate your own emotions, meaning that your own psychological development may have been arrested at a certain point during childhood. From the sounds of it this probably stems from an insecure attachment style (from Attachment theory: https://www.simplypsychology.org/attachment.html), possibly a disorganized attachment going off of what you’ve stated regarding dissociation, and without knowing anything about your personal history could potentially include complex trauma. If you've read the link attachment theory isn't just about relating styles, but establishes how we self-regulate our emotions and the overall organisation of our mind. 

My own advice would be to cease meditative practice for the time being, and to see a psychotherapist that is informed about attachment theory and childhood developmental trauma. If you have any questions please let me know.

Hope I've been of some help.

-angelicphase 

Thank you so much for your reply, Angelicphase.  I have never heard of the things you mentioned.  It is quite a bit to chew on.  Attachment Theory sounds interesting.  I will take my time and probably contact you via direct message or through another post in this thread.  In the years since 2014 I did 3 years of Jungian therapy in which the therapist suggested I probably went through trauma, but other than that I really got no help actually resolving any issues.  He mostly liked to listen to my ideas and the way I explained things!  Not very helpful! lol

I'm trying to keep an open mind before I dive into my next journey towards health and happiness, as I tend to give my 100% focus.  I have tried to keep an open mind between the purely spiritual side of the equation and the psychological side of the equation.  Thank you again for your reply.  God bless. 

I worked with a guy who specialized in a form/s of gestalt therapy and found that to be much more useful, interesting, and helpful than the generic listening and reflecting (or at least the latter was minimal). 

No problem. It's great that you've already had some theraputic experience, but you're quite right in that Jungian therapy by itself is pretty cognitively orientated, whereas the actual theraputic effectiveness is clinically shown to be in the quality of the theraputic relationship itself.



There's nothing wrong with Gestalt therapy, except that Gestalt can be too much for people with regulatory issues - especially if someone suffers from dissociation it can actually lead to potential retraumatisation. Many people can be quite gung-ho about going directly into the deep-end of their trauma, but to do so you need to have enough stability in the first place. And Gestalt isn't meant to treat attachment issues, you really need a relational approach as attachment is formed through relationship to begin with. You do need to find the right therapist however, otherwise it really can just be very rudimentary mirroring just like you've said. 

Hi Robert, I'm sorry to hear you are going through this. I'm really curious about the chronic fatigue aspect as I've heard of this happening a few times. If you feel like talking about it you can email me : Anna dot Lutkajtis at Gmail dot com 

Take care 
Anna 

aloha robert,

   You seem to be looking for something to cling to. Give that up.

   Try sitting in meditation and establishing a void or empty "black hole" in your mind, an oubliette into which you throw every sensation, every feeling, every thought which enters the space of your attention. Something arises and into the trash it goes. Practice, practice, practice. If you don't feed attention to your depression, it will die from lack of oxygen. When successful, this sort of meditation can save your sanity and your life. You have your trash can handy when toxic thoughts arise, and you recognize them because you note positive thoughts/feelings, negative thoughts/feelings, and neutral thoughts/feelings in your practice.

   Get on with it. Empty your mind; you don't need that garbage. (Originally, the word "garbage" meant "clothing." Free your mind, get naked.) With diligent practice your life will get better.

terry

Thanks for the response Terry, I am leaning much towards leaving meditation alone at this phase I am in, but I will keep in mind the oubliette you mentioned.

To all, thanks for taking the time to read what I have written and give your thoughtful responses.  It seems like Angelicphase hit the nail on the head from the beginning when he/she cut straight to trauma and depersonalization.  If I had to bet, I would bet that need western psychology more now after dealing with hardcore depersonalization for 10 years running.  I am very lucky to have ran into such well rounded and knowledgeable people.  

If anybody else has insight that they think would be even of the slightest help, I am still open for suggestions, thanks.

Personal Message sent to angelicphase and an email sent to Anna L.  Just a heads up, thanks.

Hi Robert, I'm sad to hear what you've been through all these years, I don't know if i could be of any help with the little knowledge that i have, but perhaps you could benefit from it. 
I view all of these effects, be they depression, fatigue or any other abnormalities as some signs, or alarms that some things are not going well, that something in your system is not working as it should, and I insist that these matters really doesn't matter that much. From my experience, every time I tried to overcome some negative emotions or fears by meditating, I just ended up ignoring them, and it would just grow behind my back. I won't analyze your situation because it would not help, nor I will try and comfort you since neither anty depressants could. For these kinds of things better to go straight to the source, the nervous system.
And as Pantalaji put it

...and now, yoga

For me yoga is a set of technologies meant for well being, and evolution. And it is pretty simple, whatever you see, hear or think, in other words what you experience happens inside the nervous system. Through it, energy goes about its way, passing through channels and so on, but when trauma happens, these channels gets obstructed (it can be over attachment, negative emotions/thinking etc) and it's simply called karma (wich means action) or just rust inside your life pipes haha.
Well then, to overcome these kinds of blockages, wich manifest themselves en every aspect of your being, it as simple as cleaning and purifying your system. And I really recommend you these practices:
First - meditation, but  not just observing the breath, this kind of meditation is a mantra based one. In wich you think of the mantra, when you start thinking of something else just pick up the mantra again slowly, whatever arises you should favor the task at hand, picking up gently the mantra.
Wich would be I am (pronounced as AYAM) the meaning doesn't matter, it's the sound and it's vibrance in the nervous system that do the job. Also the practice should be of 15-20 minutes twice a day and then rest for about  5minutes.

Don't know if this could help you, but when one is in despair he must try whatever comes their way, and never forget that when one is craving for an answer, all that creates these problemes will fade away, and you'll start cravin more for that final destiny we all have, everything that happens is for use to go in that direction.

If you would like to know more search for Yogani's Advanced yoga practices, he has a website very well done... And it's really life changing.
Well then i hope you all the best.

https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-eightfold-path/


1. RIGHT VIEW

A true understanding of how reality and suffering are intertwined.


2. RIGHT RESOLVE

The aspiration to act with correct intention, doing no harm.


3. RIGHT SPEECH

Abstaining from lying, and divisive or abusive speech.


4. RIGHT ACTION

Acting in ways that do not cause harm, such as not taking life, not stealing, and not engaging in sexual misconduct.


5. RIGHT LIVELIHOOD

Making an ethically sound living, being honest in business dealings.


6. RIGHT EFFORT

Endeavoring to give rise to skillful thoughts, words, and deeds and renouncing unskillful ones.


7. RIGHT MINDFULNESS

Being mindful of one’s body, feelings, mind, and mental qualities.


8. RIGHT CONCENTRATION

Practicing skillful meditation informed by all of the preceding seven aspects.


These eight steps are considered to be of three types: right view and right resolve are related to our development of wisdom; right speech, right action, and right livelihood to ethical conduct; and right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration to meditation.

    I said "establish" but I really meant discover, reveal...what is now a tiny speck will someday swallow the world.

t

Robert, thank you for sharing this. I'm keeping your "whole wall of text" in play here, to keep the fear of God in me, maybe, and to keep me humble. The depth of your prolonged distress is just so tough, and that you are still looking for help on "something to do," in whatever baby-step form, rings so deeply to me, as a sufferer of fairly severe bipolar disorder myself as well as being a Chronic Dark Night Yogi for much of my adult life. 

I have the weirdest, very strong sense of having responded to this thread. If so, and you deleted it as really bad advice or something, let me know. The sense is so strong that I don't want to write anything else until I'm sure i haven't already said it to you.

Hi Robert,

If you are still reading, I went through some similar dp/dr experiences as you, although not nearly as bad it sounds. (I did seriously fear for my sanity a couple of times though.) FWIW, I consider them to be an adverse conditioned response to the way things really are and they will attentuate over time as you get used to it.

I found Suzanne Segal's book Collision With the Infinite to be very helpful, for it gives a first person account of the worst of it and the best of it.

Best wishes
agnostic

Hello Robert.
I have been meditating for a long time now. and the last almost 7 years. had a really lot different problem- bouth with my energy in the body and my health.
I find ut a lot interesting things what most of the teachers will bewer deep inside and will newer answer.
so listen if you still read it.
of course it can be frustrating and very violent reaction of your mind in meditation process when you body might start open some energys what you not get used before, and more of that if you suffer from polar disorder and take some medication- it can be a difficult case.
I suffer cancer for the lat 10 years of time- and get under serious chemo curses some mutations in my cells.
I started Vipassana- and did it quite intence for the first 2-3 years, until kundalini wake up permanently and start change everything around me and mine life.
it was a very difficult time first 3-4 years where first my energy gets purify and body adapted to this sort of energy.
Its quite natural process- but almost noone will explain it to you hen you do serious meditations and go to the different meditation centers, and more i-f you do vipassana- the only things you will lusten its * just abserve* and equamnimity.
I apologize if my english not very advance- but I will try to help and explain- might you will get some help out of that.
Reading you description- I see what you get worse and headashes, and cannot take medication efter problem occurs- well i can tell you if your *kundaliny* and its not actually kundaliny- but its spread label across meditators, it will cost a lot change in your daily life, and this things wil go not for one year but 5-7 years minimum.  Kundalini- its a divine eergy- what will do react quite violently on all food what is not pure- rajastik, tamastik, medication is all on that list.
it get stronger with increasing of wind element in the body- so all exersises what apply to much wind- runing, breading to much, anapana, and so on- must be decreased drasticly...  all animal food must be minimise. medication must be taked off. at list try some animal food from time to time, and some medication- but for that wil be need regular meditations at list 4-5 years.
it semce what you dont do vipassana or do breathing in vipassana concentration- so its anapana. you must stop do anapana, and if you do vipassana- stop concentrate on the breathing.
as well might you have to much attachments to the sensations.
You must understand- what you only observe all sensations totaly neitral, as a invisibly mirror in the middel of the road.
Just observe, let it be, feel, see, hear- but not calculate, not think to much- neitral observer what know what is observed.
peple hard to get in start of vipassna importance of totaly neitral observations and deepen to much into sensations.
Sensations feelings, 5 agregates will be always here- even efter you at some point achieve  Arahantship, or get Sotapana.
You no need sensations and if it cost problem- its lot things to choose- thouth, ental process, hearing, and so on.
In meditation you only observe one who * knows* realise what one who *knows* get observed  where is all sensations, hearings, mental faktors- get noted totally neitral.
If you apply any force in any directions in you rmeditations- you will not get anything good  from it.
Real meditation- its understand what you are nondual- you are all awareness, and this * all* stay and mirror everything around you.
If you get to strong kundalini and your wind to strong- you might better do * emptiness* meditation, forget all sensations, forget breathing exersises.
Just stay empty in one point, shift from one point to empty space, back and forward.
Understand what if yur kundalini wake up- permanently- its not much you can do- only acept and work with it- its only here to help you truth spiritual process.
But unfortunately noone will explain how you must work with it. in Tibet they call it- wind sickness!!
Lot practitioners who have same wind problem and you are not alone.
but some ajustments must be made all time truth meditation process.
If you dont feel any mobement of ebergi inside your body- kundalini might be not your case- but still to much wind and as well to much attachments in the meditation to the sensations.
More in your stuation it can be difficult when some psychological faktors apply and you depend om medications- in my case even I knew I can die- I needed to stop take medication- or energy get stronger and just will cut like a knive everything inside body - so much as bllod will flow out when I go to wc.
when problem lay in the head and need some antidepressive medications- its hard case, but I suggest- stop any anapana. Vipassana- with causions, only very neitral observation, shift from sensation to mental factor, or what you see with you eyes close- as everything is in anicha- change all the time- so observe everything- sound, smell, mental feeling, thinking process if it arise.
Change diet, no runing exersises. get less animal food. minimise medication- its very important.
And learn- meditation not harm when it understanded right.
During you way in your practice- its not a easy process and very different from person to person.
But you are your best terapeut. 
if it anything reflects from what I wrote- you can always ask.
peace.

this is practically all you need to know, in the dark night.


love, tim

Thanks for all the effort and sincereness in all the replies.  I have read them all thoroughly.

After much thought I have come to the conclusion that as of right now my number 1 priority to work with is the depersonalization disorder that I have had for 10 years now.  It seems like the key, and I don't know if this forum is the correct one to be addressing depersonalization.  Although, I have been wondering if my intense brain energy symptoms are some sort of kundalini syndrome ordeal.

I assume you mean psychiatrically/psychologically, yes? Good for you. After you stabilize, give your spiritual path a re-think from a goo place, and see what's next for you with lucidity and fearlessness. Vaya condios, amigo. May you journey well, and may we meet again.

love, tim