All throughout my actualism practice I've always felt like I could go in the direction of PCE, but I've never actually gotten there. I don't think so at least, there's never been an experience that just stands out beyond any other sensuous experience in any really special way, whenever I investigate my experience I've never found myself to be totally 100% satisfied. I've been literally just focusing on sensuousness all day for about 3 weeks, sometimes just sitting or walking all day, sometimes watching TV or other stuff like that. I definitely feel some of the pure enjoyment of the senses and I've felt like I'm going in the right direction, but I never quite get there. I don't know if it's a matter of just sticking with it really consistently or if there is a realization I'll need to have or what. Could part of the problem be that I'm always switching my method around?

I've tried to be fascinated with the senses. I've tried to "foster naievete." I've tried to just "see things as they are." I've tried to "perceive stillness." I've tried to just be felicitous and not do anything. I usually end up doing one of these all day, feeling pretty good throughout the day, then spiraling downwards out of frustration that I'm not going anywhere. I seem to always be fluctuating between kind of just enjoying myself, feeling neutral after the initial "high" of switching to a new method, then spiraling due to frustration often to really bad places. The next day I wake up, scour all the resources available find a new method thinking that I was just doing the wrong thing, then repeat the process.

What I really want is to here that there is some single surefire way to just keep plugging along at, because I think alot of my issues come from a constant doubt that I'm doing it right, which is reinforced by there being so many different ways out there to get into PCE. I've tried to just stick with sensuous attention alone and do nothing else, that lasted for like 2 days or so until I was paying close attention to the senses and everything just looked barren and stark and not enjoyable at all, frustration came and I just sprialed down. Then I decided I would just try to be happy and only focus on not having felicity interrupted, so I did that for a few days and I found that I would never get too low, but things would catch me, and obnoxious comment, a near-accident in traffic, and I'd become unhappy and harmful, which although I'd resolve it I still felt bad.

When I did the sensuous practice bad things wouldn't arise but I'd just feel stuck and eventually resentful that I was putting effort it and not going anywhere. When I just did periodic HAIETMOBA I'd feel sorta happy, get caught into unhappy for short periods, but never got into anything where I felt like there was no "room for mood to arise." I'd never really spiral down though.

So do I just have to stick with sensuousness during that "stuck" period and not get frustrated? Do I just have to practice periodic HAIETMOBA and make some sort of progress with my identity through habituation, which will eventually lead me to something where it's easier to get into PCE and I can change my approach? My main problem is really just doubting whatever I'm doing all the time, and I can't really shake that because it seems to have a pretty good argument.

Will "i" have to be a different "i" for a PCE to occur? Or will I have some revelation and it will occur? Or will I just have a really good day and it will occur for no obvious reason?

sounds similar to what a lot of people experience. the pattern is the same, as you have noticed: try a method, see that it works, stick with it, see it hasn't gotten you a PCE yet, get frustrated, 'method stops working'.

or, put in other words: 'i' starts fading due to attentiveness and sensuousness, 'i' notices the fading and starts wanting to fade all the way, 'i' kicks back in triggering resentment and what not.

fred: "My main problem is really just doubting whatever I'm doing all the time, and I can't really shake that because it seems to have a pretty good argument."
i don't know about pretty good, but self-fulfilling, sure =).

i think any of the methods you tried could work, probably. the trouble lies not with the method but with the 'i'.

'sticking with it through the frustration' won't help if all that happens is you get into an even deeper loop of frustration.

the solution would be resolve, or pure intent. try resolving to simply have a wonderful day, or a wonderful walk, or what not. resolve that the issues that bug you and the doubt and stuff simply won't arise for that time period. then forget about the resolve and go about walking.

you literally can't feel for a PCE or feel your way into it. so even if you have a PCE and then you're out of it, you can't affectively remember your way back into it. luckily we have a constant direct connection to the PCE - the senses. i think pure intent is essentially two-fold: if feeling a 'good' or 'bad' feeling, then the intent is to instead feel felicitous.. this is simply to get some stuff out of the way to make it easier to accomplish the next part, which is to stick with the senses no matter what. so ask you ask HAIETMOBA, it might initially be emotional/thoughtful matters, and if you stick with it, you'll eventually get to the point where the answer is simply your current momentary sensory input. when that happens, ask HAIETMOBA as often as possible - as soon as you ask and tune into the senses, ask it again right then. the answer to the question might be to ask the question again... at this point it might become wordless, though i notice a tendency in me to try to forcefully apply it which brings the 'self' back up.. basically ask it as often as you can while being gentle and felicitous.

i know that very doubt + frustration well. usually when i applied the method it would come up. if it worked a bit it might take the form 'oh look it worked a little, yay! but i know it can't last', and then i'd start feeling bad that it can't last. but one day i made an agreement with myself, where i was able to have the feeling-me no longer feel the blame for feeling bad, as it's just natural, and if feeling bad then it's just another thing to deal with. and i started walking and that same doubt came up. but this time i was able to keep observing that doubt just like anything else.. and within a few moments it vanished, also resulting in an increase of sensual clarity. didn't quite get to a PCE that walk, but was the most successful i had been up to that point.

so in short: resolve, pure intent.

also try not to associate applying the method with those bad feelings, as happened to me.. makes it harder to start applying the method again =P.

Hmm, maybe that will work... Sort of have felicity as the bottom line and from there just focus on the senses to the point where the answer to HAIETMOBA is the senses.

Ok, I resolve to always have felicity and then whenever I can manage it, layer focusing on the senses on top of that, if I get irritated back off the senses and get to felicity. If I stick with this will I one day have a PCE? Like 5 years from now maybe? Will I have to be a totally different person first? Or will it be a matter of a realization that is out of my control? Eh I guess it doesn't matter.

also, when I'm just paying attention to my senses, is there anything I should be doing other than trying to focus on the clean sense percept and not 'interpreting' or 'mediating' the perception of sense data?

or depending on your resolve you might be able to look at it directly and see it as silly and watch it fade. but yea that would be getting back to felicity.

also try having it not be so important to 'you' to have one. this one still gets me, and it's annoying as heck, but if 'you' think its important to have a PCE, 'you' will grasp for it, and that will prevent the PCE from happening.

in a similar vein, try allowing yourself to have one - just let yourself know that it's ok before you start the day or go on a walk.


hmm well a PCE can happen any time.

sometimes fear comes up when i get close to a PCE - fear of oblivion, perhaps. but asking 'is it okay to go away and be in a PCE right now?' is kind of a redundant question, since the PCE is always happening.. it's just the senses and those are operating at full capacity, just overshadowed by a 'self'. so remember (i still forget) that it's not a far-away magical paradise.. it's a right-here magical paradise =P.

what do you mean by 'will i have to be a totally different person first'? becoming a happier and more harmless person will certainly help. 'you' just have to fade away for a little bit.

the issue of time is a red herring - it's just 'you'. maybe re-read the "this moment of being alive" essay and the "apperceptiveness" essay - it's always now. things can only change now. worrying about when it will happen is something that happens now and prevents you from being felicitous. so treat the worrying about time just like you treat a random momentary annoyance - just more negative stuff to get rid of. that is to say, that flavor of worrying doesnt have any special meaning as opposed to any other flavor of worrying.


enjoy them! be fascinated by them. pay attention to the little details if they catch your eye. have you noticed that nothing is just one color? and white isn't really white - it's the color of everything that's reflecting onto it. but also pay attention to the totality of your experience. maybe focus on just the periphery of your vision for a bit - i notice if i focus on it the right way it seems to expand until i cant see the edge anymore.

so yeah basically play around + have fun.

Take a break. Chill out. If you make this complicated you'll just get spinning in thought.

"It's not like *not giving a shit*. It's a lot more like *Giving a shit... freely.*" - Book of the SubGenius

Try doing whatever you're doing right now with GUSTO! Take pleasure in the stuff that's happening. It only becomes still after you catch up with it. It's like hopping on a train. You gotta sprint your ass off first. Once you're on, though, all the effort goes away.

repeating myself here: worrying about it will make it not happen. not to say you should become averse to worrying - you should just stop worrying =P. ask yourself this: why do you want a PCE? now, assume that you already have what you want by having the PCE. what do you do now?

hav annoder 1?

why do you want one in the first place?

to make progress towards AF and to know I'm doing it right to get rid of my doubt

also, the "fascinated with your senses" has always confused me. isn't that just interpreting the senses in a different way? Isn't what is aimed for just the senses sensing on their own, without anything to find their information fascinating?

rite.. and why do you want to make progress towards AF?

to show what i'm trying to get at, i'll use an example. i want(ed?) 4th path so that i could use it to help me get AF. why did i think i needed 4th path? cause was lots of suffering going on that i thought it could get rid of. why do i want to get rid of it? so i can be at peace.. putting that last part together with the fact that a lot of the suffering was about getting 4th path, made me realize that i should start being equanimous now, especially w/ regard to wanting the 4th path itself...


fascination means a keen interest.. it's delightful to experience the senses, even more so without an affective filter. also as you get closer to a PCE you just naturally become more + more fascinated by what you're seeing.. so perhaps the fascination is an intrinsic quality of full uncensored sensual experience.

Ok so I went out on my porch to try again I'll describe my experience to see if it was familiar and write down some stuff so I don't forget later.

First I tried to just maximize felicity, I did this kind of physically, pushing out the feeling sort of... maybe you know what I mean? I started feeling these pleasure bursts, mostly in the stomach area and started having these weird physical reactions. Arms/legs twitching as if I were falling asleep in a car or something, anyone experienced that? Then I had a revelation, I realized that right now I was pushing myself to force these somewhat uncomfortable bursts of pleasure, and that it would actually be nicer if I sort of let it settle and refine and just relax. This made me realize that all my practice previously had basically been like me trying to follow a certain set of instructions no matter what, with a goal of making some sort of progress, I realized that this is the furthest thing from pure intent, I should just do the thing that feels the most happy/harmless. So I sorta relaxed and got to this point where I actually forgot that I was "supposed" to be doing anything, I was able have my only intent be pure intent. Previously even when I tried to just have pure intent it was always some sort of "1984" doublethink. Like "I want to be happy and harmless" and "I want to be happy and harmless so I can have a PCE and then get AF" existing at the same time. I think I'm going to just forget about actualism, felicity, PCEs, and AF and just enjoy my summer with these cool techniques some dude in Australia thought up.

Oh and, with my experience it sort of felt like the sun came out and everything got really clear and nice and satisfying after i let it settle and refine and it sure seemed like a you know what... but I'm not going to do anything differently whether it was or it wasn't so whatever.

I hereby quit actualism and simply practice pure intent, sensuousness, and felicity for their own sake.

Bingo!

:-)

Aha, now you're getting nowhere :-) Nice!

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!