Tibetan understanding of Jhanas - Discussion
Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Andy, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 13:57 17/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 13:57 17/04/21
Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 35 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/12/19 פרסומים אחרונים
I'm currently reading Leigh Brasington's Right Concentration and at one point he makes reference to "the Tibetan understanding of the Jhanas". Does anybody know what he is referring to? I've never seen the Jhanas mentioned in a Tibetan context.
Noah D, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 14:16 17/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 14:16 17/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 1211 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/09/16 פרסומים אחרונים
Sometimes in Mahayana they are looked down upon as lacking the foundation of great compassion .
also the 9 stages of samatha working towards jhana from Kamalasila is in the Sanskrit but not pali tradition.
also the 9 stages of samatha working towards jhana from Kamalasila is in the Sanskrit but not pali tradition.
Andy, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 14:50 17/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 14:50 17/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 35 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/12/19 פרסומים אחרונים
Yeah I would agree Hinayana is looked down upon at least somewhat by Mahayana. The Tibetan Vajrayana approach I think has always been more integrative. I've seen Tibetan Buddhist centers, for example, that claim to teach all three vehicles.
Anyways though I'm looking specifically for Tibetan expositions of the Jhanas, though perhaps they refer to them as Dhyana...?
Anyways though I'm looking specifically for Tibetan expositions of the Jhanas, though perhaps they refer to them as Dhyana...?
Zero, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 17:50 17/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 17:50 17/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 68 תאריך הצטרפות: 21/02/18 פרסומים אחרונים
Yeah the Tibetans don't use the term "Hinayana" disparagingly at all. It's just beginner teachings. Japanese dharma though...
svmonk, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 21:32 17/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 21:32 17/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 401 תאריך הצטרפות: 23/08/14 פרסומים אחרונים
Hi Andy,
I think the Tibetians call it "shamantha", calm abiding. AFIK, they don't teach the detailed structure of the various jhana levels and such.
I think the Tibetians call it "shamantha", calm abiding. AFIK, they don't teach the detailed structure of the various jhana levels and such.
Noah D, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 23:52 17/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 23:52 17/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 1211 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/09/16 פרסומים אחרוניםsvmonk:
Hi Andy, I think the Tibetians call it "shamantha", calm abiding. AFIK, they don't teach the detailed structure of the various jhana levels and such.
Im pretty sure samatha precedes the 1st jhana & that they do acknowledge the existence of jhana but don't encourage its practice.
Noah D, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 23:57 17/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 23:57 17/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 1211 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/09/16 פרסומים אחרוניםAndy:
Yeah I would agree Hinayana is looked down upon at least somewhat by Mahayana. The Tibetan Vajrayana approach I think has always been more integrative. I've seen Tibetan Buddhist centers, for example, that claim to teach all three vehicles. Anyways though I'm looking specifically for Tibetan expositions of the Jhanas, though perhaps they refer to them as Dhyana...?
Derek2, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 08:07 18/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 08:05 18/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 231 תאריך הצטרפות: 21/09/16 פרסומים אחרונים
Wikipedia says that parts of the Sutta Pitaka (āgamas) were translated into Tibetan. Which parts, and what happened to the bits about jhānas, I do not know. Possibly they had the texts to translate but no contact with a living tradition of jhāna meditation.
svmonk, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 20:06 19/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 20:06 19/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 401 תאריך הצטרפות: 23/08/14 פרסומים אחרונים
Hi Noah,
Care to say more? I've never heard any Tibetian teacher or read anything along the lines of the well-articulated Theravada teaching.
Care to say more? I've never heard any Tibetian teacher or read anything along the lines of the well-articulated Theravada teaching.
Noah D, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 21:01 19/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 21:01 19/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 1211 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/09/16 פרסומים אחרוניםsvmonk
Hi Noah,
Care to say more? I've never heard any Tibetian teacher or read anything along the lines of the well-articulated Theravada teaching.
Hi Noah,
Care to say more? I've never heard any Tibetian teacher or read anything along the lines of the well-articulated Theravada teaching.
Sure thing. Just did some quick googling & it took me to an old DhO thread (lol) which references that Kamalasila's 9 stages lead to the attainment of samatha which = access concentration preceding the 1st jhana - https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/94387. In page 12 of this doc, Culadasa says the same thing - https://dharmatreasure.org/wp-content/uploads/LightOnMeditationHandout.pdf. I also have received this teaching orally from a teacher based in the Indo Tibetan tradition.
That said, they don't talk in a lot of detail about the jhanas because they don't recommend them because they'd rather have someone do something more mahayana-ey, like dzogrim or dzogchen or lam rim after attaining samatha.
Siavash ', שונה לפני 3 שנים at 21:16 19/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 21:16 19/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 1697 תאריך הצטרפות: 05/05/19 פרסומים אחרונים
Isn't B. Alan Wallace's teachings on jhanas also based on Kamalasila's 9 stages and part of the tibetan tradition?
It seems that he teaches hard jhanas similar to VSM jhanas. I guess somewhat different from Culadasa's interpretation.
It seems that he teaches hard jhanas similar to VSM jhanas. I guess somewhat different from Culadasa's interpretation.
Noah D, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 13:18 20/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 13:18 20/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 1211 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/09/16 פרסומים אחרוניםSiavash '
Isn't B. Alan Wallace's teachings on jhanas also based on Kamalasila's 9 stages and part of the tibetan tradition?
It seems that he teaches hard jhanas similar to VSM jhanas. I guess somewhat different from Culadasa's interpretation.
Isn't B. Alan Wallace's teachings on jhanas also based on Kamalasila's 9 stages and part of the tibetan tradition?
It seems that he teaches hard jhanas similar to VSM jhanas. I guess somewhat different from Culadasa's interpretation.
I don't think Culadasa is negating the fact that in traditional buddhism, jhanas comes after the attainment of samatha. Rather, I think he's saying that in reality/in practice there are useful, progressive samadhi states that clearly resemble the jhanas yet do not require full samatha to enter & maintain them.
Siavash ', שונה לפני 3 שנים at 16:21 20/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 16:21 20/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 1697 תאריך הצטרפות: 05/05/19 פרסומים אחרוניםJohn H, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 00:20 22/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 00:20 22/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 33 תאריך הצטרפות: 17/04/18 פרסומים אחרונים
I wonder if the Tibetan version of the jhanas is Tummo. That system reliably produces results and can taught without too much trouble although Tummo is dangerous in a way that I think the jhanas are not. With that, I think Tibetan Lamas would likely either be ignorant of it or consider that what they would call jhana is an obsolete method. On a somewhat related note, I was quite surprised when a Zen teacher with a Chinese lineage posted a sutta on the Buddha's birthday that pretty clearly said that enlightenment is nirodha samapatti. I'm pretty sure he didn't know what the sutta was saying and that wasn't his teaching, but somebody in the wayback of Zen clearly did.
Tommy M, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 11:08 22/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 11:07 22/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 116 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/12/20 פרסומים אחרוניםJohn H I wonder if the Tibetan version of the jhanas is Tummo.
Those practices involve radically different mental postures, although they both start with samatha so I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion.
svmonk, שונה לפני 3 שנים at 21:15 22/04/21
Created 3 שנים ago at 21:15 22/04/21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
פרסומים: 401 תאריך הצטרפות: 23/08/14 פרסומים אחרונים
Hi John,
Tricycle has an article in the spring issue about the Heart Sutra. It was apparently back translated from Chinese into Sanskirt and due to a mistranslation, came out sounding like a metaphysical treatise, when actually, it is a description of a mediation experience. Nagarjuna called it sarvopalambhopasamah (SVP) in the Mulamadhyamakakarika. Basically what happens is that clinging to perception is weakened to the point where experience disappears though you do not lose consciousness or fall asleep. Not sure but it might be different from nirodha samapatti (NSP), though it is similar. The route to get there is different. With SVP you work using vipassana to release clinging, with NSP you focus awareness.
Tricycle has an article in the spring issue about the Heart Sutra. It was apparently back translated from Chinese into Sanskirt and due to a mistranslation, came out sounding like a metaphysical treatise, when actually, it is a description of a mediation experience. Nagarjuna called it sarvopalambhopasamah (SVP) in the Mulamadhyamakakarika. Basically what happens is that clinging to perception is weakened to the point where experience disappears though you do not lose consciousness or fall asleep. Not sure but it might be different from nirodha samapatti (NSP), though it is similar. The route to get there is different. With SVP you work using vipassana to release clinging, with NSP you focus awareness.