Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

Adrian Smith, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 08:57 22/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 08:57 22/08/12

Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 9 תאריך הצטרפות: 11/12/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Hey All,

Posting this here because I'm pretty sure I'm in the dark night, but I welcome everyone's input on this. This is probably going to end up really long, but I want to include as much info as possible. You can skip to the meditation part if you really want to emoticon

BACKGROUND

About 5 years ago I hit what I now interpret to be an A+P event, while tripping on LSA (a naturally occurring variant of LSD). At the time, I had no knowledge of meditation, and was strongly atheist, having walked out of church at a young age because nobody could give me a straight answer to my questions. I did have some basic knowledge of concepts like dualities, from my first trip taken several months before. I read a lot on various drug forums (and places like Erowid) even before the first trip, so info was obviously of questionable quality but I did manage to pick up a few nuggets: most importantly, I knew that what happened was amazingly significant, but wasn't enlightenment. (I really did want to think it was though.)

The event itself: I was having a reasonably rough ride, so for whatever reason I sat down and was playing with an orange. The thought popped into my head, "what if this orange was the world and I was holding the world up?" - think Discworld and the turtles/elephant, with me and my orange substituted. Since I was actually concentrating on one thing, my mind 'zoomed out' and then it happened. The main experience was very unitive. I felt a part of everything, and all knowing/all powerful. But I knew it was perfect and didn't want to change anything, even though I felt I could have done *ANYTHING* with less than a single thought.

(As I perceived it) I got immediately shocked back to reality. Reading MCTB, it looks like A+P is only supposed to last an instant anyway. I emerged fully convinced I knew the meaning of life and proceeded to spend the next several hours attempting to write it down. The results are as crazy as might be expected and in hindsight, I probably destroyed a lot of clarity looping around and around, desperately trying to capture everything on paper. (This was prompted by many forum stories of people reporting having figured out the meaning of life and then promptly forgetting it the next day.) I more or less succeeded though: what I carried forward was that since there is no point to anything, the point is whatever we choose. The next day I took a walk and had another mini zoom out, but nothing happened other than the typical post-trip afterglow.

Very soon afterwards I started my first job. This is when I first noticed various pains and tensions, originally in my jaw by then spreading. First head, then including neck/shoulders, then all over all the way down to the feet. I saw a couple of doctors around this time, none of whom had anything useful to say. I started chiro, and at her recommendation started at the gym/doing stretches. Both helped a little, very temporarily. My original assumption was that since I work as a programmer, the increased computing time and/or posture issues were causing the pains. That didn't really fit because for years I already spent a ton of time on the computer. The only other thing that seemed relevant was general stress.

The chiro did say I have Scheuermann's disease. Reading the 'presentation' section on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheuermann's_disease) that does describe me reasonably well - not sure if there's much visible deformment, but I find myself wanting to hunch forward a lot. Would really appreciate if anyone knowledgeable could comment on this vs dark night issues, since obviously I can't ask the doctors.

Currently I'm just really sore and tense all the time with a near permanent headache of varying severity. The tension is heavily dominant on the right side (I don't quite remember when that started.) This is a major reason I want to hit stream entry ASAP, based on what I've read in MCTB. (The other reason being, it seems that the answers to the questions I've been interested in for a very long time lie in achieving path and getting a first hand look.)

Fast forward 4+ years. I found a copy of Neale Donand Walch's Conversations with God on a friends table. The blurb on the back of book 2 instantly clicked with my A+P event. Based on this, I took them home and immediately read them. This trigged an explosion of mental activity unlike anything since the A+P itself. In short, the books were the bridge that connected all the dots that allowed me to integrate what I had taken away from the A+P and actually do something with it. This put me on the path than lead to MCTB, which triggered its own mental explosion.

But before I found MCTB, about 3 weeks after CWG, my sister died in some complex and really fucked up circumstances. This was obviously rough, but my new found understanding helped a lot, i.e. the fact I KNEW death is not the end on top of the fact she was now free of a whole lot of general nastiness. The first night I felt the stages of grief pass very quickly, one after the other, in a few seconds. This helped me a lot. Obviously her death is still a significant event, but I don't think I'm repressing, not that I can really say for sure.
I mention all this for full disclosure.

That brings us up to the end of last year. Since then I kinda aimlessly circles, falling into many of the traps mentioned by Daniel and not making any consistent effort at any kind of practice. I did manage a fair mix of pretending to practice mixed in with beating myself up for not doing so.

The last month I've made a much more concerted and consistent effort, with some minor progress to show for it, but I'm struggling with the basics still. I also quit weed, which I smoked near constantly since before the first trips - that's how I got intrigued by LSD. I cut back a lot several months ago and totally stopped recently. No change to the pain or energy levels, now or in other breaks I've taken previously.

MEDITATION STUFF/QUESTIONS

My major issue is still getting train-wrecked by content. I guess that's just a case of more consistent practice. I was at a loss of how to find a decent teacher, but I have just discovered U Pandita actually runs a retreat centre an hour from my house! Super excited about this - he was busy last weekend but I'm really hoping to get in for a 1 or 2 day retreat this weekend to get started! Not sure if he is actually taking students though, so any suggestions on where I might find good teachers if this doesn't play out. (I'll obviously ask him this too.) I live in Melbourne, Australia.

Previously I didn't have too much luck with noting practice. I kept spinning out in content based on putting too much emphasis on the labelling process.

Before that I was trying to do breath concentration, and I've since come back to that, based on the very first instructions in Mahasi Sayadaw's basic notes. (Also doing walking meditation going to lunch, on the way to/from the station etc.) In the past week I have noticed a very slightly increase in concentration power, I can sometimes go longer before getting distracted. One thing I notice, I often go a lot better in the first few minutes of meditation, then the rest becomes at minim 50% content. Is this normal? What can I do about it?

One thing I noticed a while ago when I was doing a one off attempting to meditate looking at a crystal: my eyes needed to constantly be refocusing on the crystal in order to obtain a stable view/stable concentration. (I had this realisation solidly once but have not been able to repeat.) From this I extrapolate that when focusing on a mental object, I need to constantly be mentally 'refocusing' my attention in order to maintain the concentration. Is this right? I would assume there is some link going here to needing to be refocusing on each mind moment as it arises and passes, so as to perceive it as a stable object.

I notice the primary source of many of my distractions is the fact I have to be alert for my attention wavering/doing the refocusing I mentioned above. Just the tiny fraction of my attention that I need to use on staying attentive is the window in which content comes streaming in, in many cases. Is this a signpost to something useful?

When I'm doing walking meditation, I often struggle with the urge to count coming up. This is deeply ingrained as I'm a drummer and I've done some marching stuff previously. Various instructions I've come across specifically say to NOT count and NOT label, but trying to override the counting takes a lot of attention away from my feet and lets in many distractions. I've had a go at doing it with the counting (just 1,2,1,2 as per a march) and found it easier to concentrate. Should I keep up with the counting?

I've been doing all my (non-walking) meditation in chairs. I can more or less sit cross legged, but it is not comfortable. Any attempt at the more advanced poses causes a lot of pain. My feet and ankles are really stiff and I can't get them to relax. The postures used on meditation stools and the like are intolerable even for a very short time. I'm worried that I'll be required to sit in these types of positions in centers and on retreats, which I really want to do. I don't especially want to deal with any more pain and I really don't want to do actual damage, so what can I do about this? Or do centers allow chairs now?

When I was rereading MCTB, I noticed some comments about wider fields of attention and inability to focus on objects in the stages of the dark night. I've played around a little bit with e.g. sitting in my garden, eyes open and trying to take in everything. This seems a little better but nothing conclusive. Since I'm really a beginner, should I be starting at the start, or do I need to do things differently since I'm an unintentional dark night yogi?

Back when I was smoking, I was able to very inconsistently get bits and pieces of quite noticeable progress, but then not be able to repeat. E.g. one time I was quite clearly aware of thoughts arising, sort of flashing past like tiny speeding trains. I was aware of their content as they passed, even quite long and complicated bits of internal dialogue, even though since they sped past they didn't actually appear as that dialogue. Since I've been sober I've been unable to either repeat old things, and nothing new has happened - just attempting to concentrate and spinning in content. Makes for more frustration, and less certainty I'm doing the right thing.

Also one of the final times I smoked, I had a startling realisation - on the times I got especially high, I (think I) had often been cycling through the stages of the progress of insight! A spaced out moment of generally positive feeling (A+P) would lead to spinning out really hard into a content based fear (one of several key ones would usually fill in this slot, some of them hinted at in MCTB ). I can't really strictly map the rest to the stages, so not really sure exactly where I'm wiping out but it goes something like this: fear arises => I try and deny it => fear grows => I desperately try to see the three characteristics in it to get it to go away [this part is quite new since I only recently figured out I should be doing this] => it doesn't, keeps growing => I can't avoid it, am forced to accept whatever it is I don't want (varies, depending on which bit of content came up this time) => it begins to recede, but I'm left feeling dirty => after a bit, most times I realise how the fear was an overreaction to some element that needed acknowledgement and I'm OK with that element and see how it fits. Does anyone think this is actually anything related to the progress of insight, or is that just getting high and freaking out? The key part here, regardless of which bit of content gets selected, the pattern is EXACTLY the same every time. In fact, it is the very recognition of the pattern kicking in that really sets the fear off, because I know what's coming and know I don't have a way out. (Even though I know that I'm doing it to myself and I'm supposedly in control and I get myself out of by using the exact same knowledge that gets me into it, or so it seems.)

The idea of this cycle getting trigged off makes me tempted to go get really high one more time to try and really observe the process in action, preferably with a bit more meditation experience under my belt. Not really sure if this is a good idea or not, but I probably will anyway since I won't have any trouble staying quit afterwards.

There is one piece of content that's pretty new that I want to bring up, because it is the only one that I don't know how to deal with. (This is also an issue outside of the situation I just mentioned above.) I also suspect it is stopping me from letting go properly.

In short its really just control issues I suppose. Basically: we know there are lots of spiritual beings, good and bad out there. Let's take the common conspiracy theory of the reptilians as a random example, it could be anything really. (I have a friend to claims to be actively engaging and destroying their forces and facilities on a regular basis. No idea what to make of this, but I certainly can't deny the possibility so this one hits close to home. But its more than just this one example I'm worried about - more this general category of problem.)

How do I know that meditation and various other spiritual techniques aren't just tricks to trap us, mind control us, etc? On a similar (but slightly less sinister) note, if we are inside something like the matrix (existing inside whatever ultimate reality actually is), then how do we know that all this talk of enlightenment and the way out of reality isn't just a big trick?

I'm aware of all the standard protections: crystals, shielding yourself, calling on positive beings, demanding to see the true essence of any being that presents itself (not that I can see any), etc. But in light of the above, these could easily be further traps. I also get that (according to MCTB ) the very nature of nirvana is always accessible and we can never be prevented from reaching it, other than by ourselves. But same thing applies, could be more misinformation (not that I'm even remotely accusing Daniel of such a thing.)

Yes I'm quite aware this sounds quite crazy. I know its almost certainly not true. The thing that really gets me, is there is literally no way to prove that something like this isn't true. (Yes I'm also aware that by the same logic it is impossible to even ask for help on this topic, but this has gone on for way too long.) So what can possibly be done about this, other than giving up and letting "whatever" happen?

Finally, I seem to recall mentions somewhere around here of a web site designed as a meditation practice journal. Can someone link that please? Is it yogajournal.com - that's the first search result I got.

Thanks for reading and replying. (Man did this take WAY too long to write.)

Adrian
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fivebells , שונה לפני 11 שנים at 17:13 29/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 11:29 22/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 563 תאריך הצטרפות: 25/02/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Adrian Smith:
I was at a loss of how to find a decent teacher, but I have just discovered U Pandita actually runs a retreat centre an hour from my house!


Definitely see this guy, he can give you better-informed guidance than you'll get through the internet, just by dint of seeing you face to face.

Adrian Smith:
Before that I was trying to do breath concentration, and I've since come back to that


This is the biggest problem with your practice at the moment. You are confusing the result with the method. Concentration is the result of the practice. The method is to rest awareness on the object of attention, and return it there when you notice it's wandered.

Adrian Smith:
One thing I notice, I often go a lot better in the first few minutes of meditation, then the rest becomes at minim 50% content. Is this normal? What can I do about it?


Don't do anything. Just keep returning awareness to the breath/walking/whatever the object is.

Adrian Smith:
I need to constantly be mentally 'refocusing' my attention in order to maintain the concentration. Is this right? I would assume there is some link going here to needing to be refocusing on each mind moment as it arises and passes, so as to perceive it as a stable object.


No, this is conditioning your mind to "do" something with the present moment of experience. The goal is to rest in awareness of the experience.

Adrian Smith:
I notice the primary source of many of my distractions is the fact I have to be alert for my attention wavering/doing the refocusing I mentioned above. Just the tiny fraction of my attention that I need to use on staying attentive is the window in which content comes streaming in, in many cases. Is this a signpost to something useful?


Yes, it indicates that you are using your practice as a subtle form of repression.

Adrian Smith:
When I'm doing walking meditation, I often struggle with the urge to count coming up. This is deeply ingrained as I'm a drummer and I've done some marching stuff previously. Various instructions I've come across specifically say to NOT count and NOT label, but trying to override the counting takes a lot of attention away from my feet and lets in many distractions. I've had a go at doing it with the counting (just 1,2,1,2 as per a march) and found it easier to concentrate. Should I keep up with the counting?


Yes, that's no problem.

Adrian Smith:
I can more or less sit cross legged, but it is not comfortable. I'm worried that I'll be required to sit in these types of positions in centers and on retreats, which I really want to do. I don't especially want to deal with any more pain and I really don't want to do actual damage, so what can I do about this? Or do centers allow chairs now?


Run away from anyone tells you you have to sit a certain way even though it causes you pain and possible damage. If they say that certain postures lead to better results and suggest exercises to help you achieve those postures over time, that's OK though. Especially when cultivating concentration, it is important that you sit comfortably.

Adrian Smith:
When I was rereading MCTB, I noticed some comments about wider fields of attention and inability to focus on objects in the stages of the dark night. I've played around a little bit with e.g. sitting in my garden, eyes open and trying to take in everything. This seems a little better but nothing conclusive. Since I'm really a beginner, should I be starting at the start, or do I need to do things differently since I'm an unintentional dark night yogi?


Start at the start. Don't try expanding the field of awareness until consistent access concentration has developed.

Adrian Smith:
Back when I was smoking, I was able to very inconsistently get bits and pieces of quite noticeable progress, but then not be able to repeat.


When developing concentration, steer clear of weed. It will be totally counterproductive. There's a chance it could be useful in later stages, but not for a while.

Adrian Smith:
The key part here, regardless of which bit of content gets selected, the pattern is EXACTLY the same every time. In fact, it is the very recognition of the pattern kicking in that really sets the fear off, because I know what's coming and know I don't have a way out. (Even though I know that I'm doing it to myself and I'm supposedly in control and I get myself out of by using the exact same knowledge that gets me into it, or so it seems.)


These are all valuable insights (and further suggest that you are repressing things) however, for now developing concentration would be a faster route to progress.

You have the insight, the question now is what are you going to do about it? Concentration is the tool which could release the cycle you've noticed.

Adrian Smith:
Not really sure if this is a good idea or not, but I probably will anyway since I won't have any trouble staying quit afterwards.


Bad idea at least until consistent Re-observation develops.

Adrian Smith:
There is one piece of content that's pretty new that I want to bring up, because it is the only one that I don't know how to deal with.


Meditation is not about dealing with things. It is about resting in the experience of the moment. When these things come up, return to the object of attention, and rest.

Adrian Smith:
The thing that really gets me, is there is literally no way to prove that something like this isn't true. (Yes I'm also aware that by the same logic it is impossible to even ask for help on this topic, but this has gone on for way too long.) So what can possibly be done about this, other than giving up and letting "whatever" happen?


Nothing can be done about this, letting "whatever" happen is all that can happen. Truly internalizing this attitude will take you a long way in your meditation. emoticon

Adrian Smith:
Finally, I seem to recall mentions somewhere around here of a web site designed as a meditation practice journal. Can someone link that please?


I think you would be welcome to set up a practice log here.
Adrian Smith, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 08:41 23/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 08:41 23/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 9 תאריך הצטרפות: 11/12/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Definitely see this guy, he can give you better-informed guidance than you'll get through the internet, just by dint of seeing you face to face.


Yep. But I put off making this post so many times (check my join date and post count...) that I wasn't about to put it off again even if I can hopefully get better advice soon.

This is the biggest problem with your practice at the moment. You are confusing the result with the method. Concentration is the result of the practice. The method is to rest awareness on the object of attention, and return it there when you notice it's wandered.


I may have screwed up on my original pharasing here. Awareness of the breath is what I was trying to get at. But this is where the other thing I said about needing to be constantly mentally refocusing comes in. I think I've been trying to use the constant refocusing as the method of maintaining the awareness, which you've indicated is wrong.

Don't do anything. Just keep returning awareness to the breath/walking/whatever the object is.

No, this is conditioning your mind to "do" something with the present moment of experience. The goal is to rest in awareness of the experience.


But resting in awareness and returning when the mind wanders is also doing something? (Not the resting, but the returning.) I think I figured it out though: what I originally said about refocusing is wrong because I'm activly doing something near continuously i.e. I am interupting the resting process to try and achieve resting. The returning part of the resting (the way you said it) is OK though, because the wandering of the mind has already interupted the resting, so its therefor OK to do something as I'm no longer interupting with the act of returning?


Yes, it indicates that you are using your practice as a subtle form of repression.


Repression of what? The experience of the current moment/things that are arising of their own accord? Or repression of content I haven't dealt with? Confused as to your meaning here, especially with your 2nd reference to repression later on.

You have the insight, the question now is what are you going to do about it? Concentration is the tool which could release the cycle you've noticed.


The only thing I'm particually sure of is I need to get some actual meditation skills. To that end I've been changing things around and putting in the time/effort. I'd really like to know how to actually to get my foot in the door so to speak. Meanwhile I guess I just keep trying...

You mention concentration specifically. Whether I should be working on concentration vs insight is something I've thought about a fair bit. I kind of concluded I should be doing insight to get out of the dark night ASAP, but am open to input. (I know insight needs access concentration, but all the basic instructions for insight seem to be concentration based anyway, and MCTB says insight can develop concentration. I kinda abandoned trying to analyse the subject and just started with the most basic common instructions. I've drastically cut back on my reading recently, since if I don't make myself practice, I'll just read all day in an attempt to figure out how I should practice and never actaully do so.)

Side note: You mention breaking the cycle, but I should be clear: the cycle that I mentioned has never actually come up in meditation. All my meditation recently has been sober, and I've never gotten past the first hurdle. The times I've hit that cycle (when high) I haven't been meditating at all. The time that cycle occured that I realised what was doing on was just sitting in my friends lounge room, although we were just watching TV so I quite possibly 'accidentally' meditated. (Needless to say the perception of backsliding despite making positive changes is extra frustrating.)

Meditation is not about dealing with things. It is about resting in the experience of the moment. When these things come up, return to the object of attention, and rest.


I know its not about dealing with things (but I was probably pretty unclear about why I bought it up). That particular issue doesn't bother me in meditation (possibly because I haven't established any deep enough states for it to be an issue), but it bothers the hell out of me in general life. I mentioned it because I could easily see this type of paranoia interfering later on, not because it has yet (in any obvious way).

Nothing can be done about this, letting "whatever" happen is all that can happen. Truly internalizing this attitude will take you a long way in your meditation.


Well I suppose this is why I was mentioning the above. I understand that letting things happen is very important to meditation. I also reconise that the progress of insight is pretty much the process of killing the ego. But I don't particually want Bad Things being done by Bad Guys to the ego/my self in the process, seeing as how I'll still be (some version of) me after hitting stream entry. That said, in the process of typing this I've thought of some things I need to consider. Specifically, this is the one topic for which the cycle has occured in which I haven't understood and been accepting afterwards - I have already rejected the feared events completely.

Thanks for the replies.
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fivebells , שונה לפני 11 שנים at 17:14 29/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 12:32 23/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 563 תאריך הצטרפות: 25/02/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Adrian Smith:
I wasn't about to put it off again even if I can hopefully get better advice soon.


Don't get me wrong: You're welcome to ask here, and it can be a useful adjunct to face-to-face advice. But it's no substitute.

Adrian Smith:
...what I originally said about refocusing is wrong because I'm activly doing something near continuously i.e. I am interupting the resting process to try and achieve resting. The returning part of the resting (the way you said it) is OK though, because the wandering of the mind has already interupted the resting, so its therefor OK to do something as I'm no longer interupting with the act of returning?


Yes, you've got it. One analogy I've heard for this is training a puppy to sit still. You put the puppy down, and leave it there. When it runs off, you pick it up and put it back on the same spot. You don't hold it in place. (I have no idea whether this would be an effective way to train a puppy to sit still, though. emoticon)

Adrian Smith:
Repression of what? The experience of the current moment/things that are arising of their own accord? Or repression of content I haven't dealt with?


Repression of content, though there is no need to deal with it. It'll come to light as your practice progresses.

Adrian Smith:
The only thing I'm particually sure of is I need to get some actual meditation skills. To that end I've been changing things around and putting in the time/effort. I'd really like to know how to actually to get my foot in the door so to speak. Meanwhile I guess I just keep trying...


It all starts with intention. If you rest attention on the breath the way I've described, you should make pretty fast progress.

Adrian Smith:
You mention concentration specifically. Whether I should be working on concentration vs insight is something I've thought about a fair bit. I kind of concluded I should be doing insight to get out of the dark night ASAP, but am open to input.


The thing is, outside of consistent practice the stages of insight don't have to come in linear order. There are many different selves within us, and we can experience the different stages of insight in the dissolution or destruction of any of them. And if we don't understand how it all works, the dissolved selves can even come back and the process of dissolving/destroying them can become the basis for the formation another self! So although you have experienced an A&P and dark night, it is critical for further progress to develop the capacity to repeat the processes which led to these experiences in the formal context of meditation, and observe their operation with calm attention. Concentration is the foundation of this capacity. Without that calm attention, you can too easily fall back into the attention patterns the self is constructed around, leading to the frustrating backsliding you mentioned further down.

(BTW, repeating the processes which led to the experiences will not necessarily lead to repetition of the experiences themselves. It is quite likely that the experience will be different each time.)

Adrian Smith:
I know insight needs access concentration, but all the basic instructions for insight seem to be concentration based anyway, and MCTB says insight can develop concentration.


It's very true that insight can improve concentration, but generally developing concentration first is the safer bet. As you say, the insight instructions are concentration-based. Concentration is their foundation.

You can do noting as a concentration practice, but this is harder than attention to a single object at first. Best to master the simple exercises before moving on.

Adrian Smith:
I've drastically cut back on my reading recently, since if I don't make myself practice, I'll just read all day in an attempt to figure out how I should practice and never actaully do so.)


Probably a good attitude for now. Development of concentration doesn't require too much study.

Adrian Smith:
I know its not about dealing with things (but I was probably pretty unclear about why I bought it up). That particular issue doesn't bother me in meditation (possibly because I haven't established any deep enough states for it to be an issue), but it bothers the hell out of me in general life. I mentioned it because I could easily see this type of paranoia interfering later on, not because it has yet (in any obvious way).

I understand that letting things happen is very important to meditation. I also reconise that the progress of insight is pretty much the process of killing the ego. But I don't particually want Bad Things being done by Bad Guys to the ego/my self in the process, seeing as how I'll still be (some version of) me after hitting stream entry. That said, in the process of typing this I've thought of some things I need to consider. Specifically, this is the one topic for which the cycle has occured in which I haven't understood and been accepting afterwards - I have already rejected the feared events completely.


I've experienced paranoia, too. I suggest talking to a therapist about it.

As it takes apart emotional defenses, meditation can intensify the experience of some sensations comprising the paranoia (the fantasies and the emotional reactions to them and even the beliefs), but when it works this way it is likely to undermine the identification with these sensations at the same time. The result is you feel more crazy for a little while but you're actually saner than ever.

If the sensations in meditation get too disturbing, there are other practices which can help with that, but establishing access concentration on the breath should be pretty harmless.
Adrian Smith, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 08:15 24/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 08:15 24/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 9 תאריך הצטרפות: 11/12/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Got some more to say/ask, but no time right now (couldn't post from my phone earlier for some reason.) For now, it seems the clarification has been helpful. Going to the retreat centre tomorrow, will report back.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 21:22 24/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 21:22 24/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 1740 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/10/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Yes, you've got it. One analogy I've heard for this is training a puppy to sit still. You put the puppy down, and leave it there. When it runs off, you pick it up and put it back on the same spot. You don't hold it in place. (I have no idea whether this would be an effective way to train a puppy to sit still, though. )
This will bring up a wearing-out game - who tires faster, for which more energized party (e.g. mind or pup) is better equipped at winning, and winning involves two parties trying to reduce their wills to an end which seems completely boring (sitting still and making sit still).

In my experience it is incredibly effective to make use of skillful play initially versus reducing wills to rote sitting, play which prepares and orients the mind (the puppy) to its take up curiosity and enjoyment of its "work".

So there are forms of exercise (team and solo, water, land, contemplative and outrageous, artistic, etc) that help arouse the mind successfully for tranquil abiding, that help arouse natural curiosity in the mind for observing itself.

Now, once the mind is aroused in curiosity for sitting and observing itself, then, yes - there will likely be numerous opportunities to simply replace the mind back on the breath or kasina. After much calming, friendly play has laid the foundation for this, then there is nothing tedious about replacing the mind again and again at the breath/kasina.

A simple test for a moderately fit person is to get the heart rate up for 20-30 minutes, break a sweet, cool down and stretch (with long slow deep breathing) then do sitting meditation. This kind of training causes investigation to be very "easy" and "more confident" as emotions and tension have been largely allayed by the exercise. A person can build a habit around this, and then the practice will have the basic capacity to grow from there into less 'easy' mental areas, distinctly unconfident areas of mind, low spots, hard spots. But first one trains the mind really well, friendly, in positive conditions if possible, so that it has some basis of ability and confidence in tackling difficult stuff. Use the body at the outset especially to support the mind's exit and surveillance of dark night terrain.
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fivebells , שונה לפני 11 שנים at 10:57 25/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 10:57 25/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 563 תאריך הצטרפות: 25/02/11 פרסומים אחרונים
This is great advice. If you do something like tai chi, you can even mix the two together.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 11:35 25/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 11:35 25/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 1740 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/10/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Funny thing was I was doing tai chi just as the knowledges of suffering hit! I was in the middle of the third year of training regularly with a great teacher and fellow students, cross-training just a touch with other friends in other systems...and I tanked. Got super-sick, gave up everything except sleeping through whole weekends and trying to figure out which antibiotic cocktail-chinese medicine-herbal protocol-diet-blood-brain-barrier-entrant-etc was going to do the trick. The last sort of cognizant thing Idid before hitting immersive, sightless knowledges of suffering was attend a week-long class with HH Tenzin Gyatso, the paramitas of which class stayed in my head as a poem...it took almost three years of serious misery and conflict with someone just finishing their tour de prison to wake up, "hit bottom" as they say, and really ask, "What am I causing, personally?" That's when I wrote Daniel and found this site emoticon

So, yeah, tai chi could be an awesome tool.
Adrian Smith, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 00:04 26/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 00:04 26/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 9 תאריך הצטרפות: 11/12/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Well I spent 8 hours more-or-less solidly yesterday, the first time I've done anything much over an hour. I had some pretty solid concentration going on in the middle of the day, although I don't believe it corresponded to either access concentration or mind + body. I was taught a very useful variation of walking meditation which I haven't encountered before, which is what I had success with.

Also did some sitting meditation. The first lot I did in the morning went well (certainly better than any other sitting meditation I've done) but degraded later in the day. In the first lot I tried the standard cross legged/cushion position (voluntarily) and managed to stick it out, probably in no small part due to the Sayadaw standing over me in an otherwise empty room. That was for 30 minutes (he was just doing intros). Towards the end of this my legs fell asleep which definitly helped. IIRC this is a sign of blood flow getting cut off, is this something I need to watch out for and shift position when it happens? (Not worried about yesterday - just want to clarify for the future.)

I didn't get a chance to ask a ton of questions, but I did get to clarify on the points I felt were most important. One thing I forgot to mention here: often in my meditation I find my eyes blinking rapidly of their own accord. This often tends to come and go in waves of intensity, though not necessarily totally regular ones.

On occasion, when in a reasonably deep concentration state and doing noting (on a single topic, e.g. just noting 'standing' for the periods of rest on the end of each walking meditation lap), I've found the blinks start to occur at the exact moment that a thought starts to arise that needs to be labeled in order to continue with the resting in awareness*. I assume that this is pointing to impermanence, and also the 'mental blinking' MCTB describes as being responsible for us isolating the 6th sense of thought from the other 5?

I also find often that visually things appear to be blinking - not so distinctly as an old CRT screen, and in a way different to a CRT's progressive scan lines. Some combination between the whole picture blinking (with the presence being much more distinct and longer lasting than the absence) and fuzzness/shifting around on the spot. I had some trouble communicating with him on some things, but from what I could tell he agreed with me that these were signs of impermanence. (Just asked about the blinking and visual fuzzyness so we didn't get too bogged down.)

Another thing: sometimes when sitting I find myself start to rock back and forth constantly. I forgot to ask about this, is it tied in with the above? When I put my awareness on either the rocking or the blinking, this often seems to adjust the intensity (either up or down) but the irregular waves continue.

*Something I realised yesterday that I want to double check to make sure I don't go off track. We clarified that the awareness should be returned only when it has actually wander off on its own account, but this was without noting anything. Yesterday I was asked to do noting, e.g. the example of just noting standing that I gave above. When doing this obviously the noting mostly shouldn't be rhythmic and in line with not "holding the puppy down" it can't be continuous. So I noticed that the occasions on which I would note are when a thought was arising, almost overwriting/dismissing the thought with the note. I'm assuming that this is exactly what was talkined about in Daniels "The Parable of Shootin' Aliens™"?

This will bring up a wearing-out game - who tires faster, for which more energized party (e.g. mind or pup) is better equipped at winning, and winning involves two parties trying to reduce their wills to an end which seems completely boring (sitting still and making sit still).


Definitely ran into this later on in the day. I was reading some peoples comments about going to 10 day retreats and they seemed to think this was very common for the first few days and then sorts itself out. Though I'd say your next point would probably apply to helping achieve that.

In my experience it is incredibly effective to make use of skillful play initially versus reducing wills to rote sitting, play which prepares and orients the mind (the puppy) to its take up curiosity and enjoyment of its "work".


This is something that's been in the back of my mind recently, not just in the actual meditating but also addressing motivation to commit fully to meditation, something I have struggled especially when seeming to be not progressing.

I think this is part of why I was much more successful in the walking meditation yesterday: it was pretty cold outside at points and my arms etc still ached, but I was unaware of this for large portions of it. Especially at the start, just maintaining balance and full awareness at the very slow walking speed made it pretty impossible to go wandering off. This started with labeling of just "left, right", then "raising, lowering" for each foot, then "raising, lowering, moving" and so on, increasing the number of notes by 1 and decreasing the speed each time. I got up to stage 5 of 6. I found the task of keeping my notes synchronised whilst maintaining full awareness and not falling over excellent for keeping the puppy from wanting to run away, so to speak. When just sitting and breathing, it REALLY wants to go places a lot more. When walking, it is occupied (mostly) but I am still resting in awareness (or at least highly mindful - need to think about if there is a difference here).

This is probaby a little different from what you were getting at, but address the same issue I believe. Any suggestions for things to look into other than the tai chi? I downloaded a yoga DVD recently which I've run through a couple of times. It's definitly a workaround. I don't think I've tried meditating directly after exercise, so I'll give it a go.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 01:08 28/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 00:58 28/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 1740 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/10/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Hi Adrian -

Here is a woman's blog entry about managing Scheuerman's with yoga: http://voices.yahoo.com/living-scheuermanns-kyphosis-1016161.html.

I use the books of Ray Long, M.D. for alignment, but the most important element of the stretching is a) not forcing anything (beware of the ego's desire to do/want too much) and b) long,slow, deep breathing.

The breathing is the most important part of yoga, then alignment. If physical therapists would add this breathing (instructions follow) to their practice, their results would be much, much better and many clients would be satisfied, not destined for Ibuprofen and surgery, re-surgery.

One begins by inhaling for 5-seconds and exhaling for 5-seconds. Soon, the heart and diaphragm will naturally work together (called "concordance") and you may find yourself counting 7-heartbeats on the inhale and 7-heartbeats on the exhale, for example. Maybe you will find 7-heartbeats on the inhale and 6-heartbeats before you on the exhale, whatever. Maybe a 3-4 heartbeat pause on either end. Something like this.

Regardless of how you count the length of respiration (one respiration = 1 inhale + 1 exhale), this long, slow, deep breathing is essential. Do no less than 5 cycles of such respirations.

This breathing will take each stretch you do to about one-minute in duration. That is a good start. Keep your mind (aka: the puppy) gently at the breath: no criticism, just thank the mind for coming back to the breath.


About meditation: if you can be taught by U Pandita or his student, consider this opportunity. Use this place as a practice journal area. If you are not already, consider an alias for this time period.

Also, I highly recommend (if you are not already), the consideration of sila, looking at what you see around you and in you. Sila is like meditation: it too gets deeper as the meditative practice goes on.

Equanimity (in the progress of insight, sotapanna depends upon there first being a mind well transformed to equanimity): open awareness (such as being in the sense-faculties or in a four-elements practice) cultivates equanimity well, if they are practiced sincerely without time-limit or goal, just continuously turning the mind to the practice when one is not working/studying/etc. Both sensate and elements practices are giving up the activity of "thinking" for the parts of the day when directed thought is not needed. In sensate open awareness, one really lets the sense-consciousnesses exist without the mind's constant narration (oh, I smell a cookie; oh, I see a sunset, etc) the mind slowly stops labeling everything, such as "ah, what a sunset" - there is just the direct experience and the sensory level without the mind asserting labels (it may take some time for the mind to stop leaping with labels). Elements' practice is similar, however, instead of focusing awareness on sensations as products of sense-faculties, the mind detects the four elements (cattāro mahābhūtāni) happening in the body (aka: one detects themselves/one's actions to be of four elements): flowingness and stickiness (water), heating and cooling (fire), hardening and softening (earth), pushing-pulling (air). If the mind is taught to welcome these experiences and it does these practices continuously as sati (not as "I am practicing open awareness) then dark night (knowledges of suffering (stages 5-10 in the Mahasi link above) can be transformed into equanimity.

Should you receive and accept advice from U Pandita/student, I recommend going with that full-tilt and dedicatedly for no less than 6-9 months. It takes a while for the mind to turn itself around, like an ocean tanker turning around. It takes focus and steady dedication over time to see results.

[edit: strike through, color and italics format correction]
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 10:59 28/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 10:45 28/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 1740 תאריך הצטרפות: 01/10/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Hi again Adrian -

Me:
The breathing is the most important part of yoga, then alignment. If physical therapists would add this breathing (instructions follow) to their practice, their results would be much, much better and many clients would be satisfied, not destined for Ibuprofen and surgery, re-surgery.
This may seem a little strongly worded. I just want to make sure that if you use stretching (like yoga) that you do it in a way that you will experience its benefits.

With apologies for perhaps directing your thread too physically, but in response to your thoughts about Scheuermann's and your comment...
This is probaby a little different from what you were getting at, but address the same issue I believe. Any suggestions for things to look into other than the tai chi? I downloaded a yoga DVD recently which I've run through a couple of times. It's definitly a workaround. I don't think I've tried meditating directly after exercise, so I'll give it a go.
...I want to add some substance to my comments about breathing (long, slow, deep breathing):

Here is an article in the Cochrane Collaboration library on the inefficacy of short-term stretching (stretches for 10s) and cramping, for example; see the "Plain Language Summary". (Cochrane Collaboration rigorously reviews medical studies to determine if the methods and conclusions jive with any conclusions of efficacy the studies may make. (That's not their purpose statement, but my sense of it).)

Short-term stretching (and physical therapy's "hold-relax technique" stays in an applied stretch for 20-40 seconds without long, slow, deep breathing) and this Cochrane review notes this short-term stretch has no effect on cramping. It is my anecdotal experience (and how I was taught by physiology and kundalini teachers in college yoga 20 years ago, as well as re-itereated recently by a former pro-athlete-turned-yogi) that long-duration stretches as found in yoga (as guided by long, slow, deep breathing) are fundamentally helpful. I have used this on major joints like the lumbar spine - after surgery, and on more distal joints like elbows to prevent surgical propensity.

You can search any keyword in Cochrane's library if you are looking for evidence-based medicine and studies that have been subjected to rigorous review.

Anywhooo... best wishes : )

[edit: now there are problems with my own review here: I refer to PT holding stretches for an average of 20 seconds (very, very few physical therapist hold stretches for 40 seconds and that would not be enough anyway(this, from my personal experience, as well as asking and talking with friends)) and yet I pull a study on 10-second stretching. So, that is not a great comparison on my part. However, if a person practices 5-second inhale, 5-second exhale for 5 cycles (about 50 seconds) they will start to feel the relaxation of the muscle spindle. There will be not force involved: the muscle spindle will just relax. Ray Long, M.D. describes the muscle spindle and golgi bodies here (if you're interested). In just a few days a person being mindful of their breath and stretching will notice that they are naturally staying longer in the stretch and instinctively starting to time the breath in concordance with the heart beating. With long, slow, deep breathing building up to natural two-minute and longer stretching times, beneficial changes in the muscles and joints will start to occur. Ray Long's books are useful for alignment.]
Adrian Smith, שונה לפני 11 שנים at 22:16 31/08/12
Created 11 שנים ago at 22:16 31/08/12

RE: Help with Dark Night, beginning practice

פרסומים: 9 תאריך הצטרפות: 11/12/11 פרסומים אחרונים
Hi Katy,

I get the general idea of what you're saying but I want to check in on the details. Since you reminded me, I have picked up again with the very slow breathing for relaxation purposes. (I managed to lose that thread some time recently with the focus of most meditation instructions being to not control the breath.) This has been variably helpful, depending on the day/circumstance, but definitly very beneficial sometimes. A couple times I've gotten back to the "so relaxed everything starts to hurt again" point (which I had forgotten about) which is a good thing overall, even if it can be annoying.

The yoga I've been doing seems to be much more a set of physical exercises than stretches. There aren't many held poses in there - each exercise tends to be a motion (which does involve stretching in various ways) that is repeated back and forth (left/right, up/down whatever). This is the DVD I've been using. I chose it mostly because it was the best reviewed one that was easily available: http://www.gaiam.com/product/kundalini+yoga+dvd.do

What you mention as yoga seems to be quite different, i.e. a set of poses held for a long time. Is this a styalistic difference, or western culture asserting it's influence? I looked up hatha yoga in wiki, trying to figure out what Long's books were teaching. The article mentioned that hatha yoga has become a label for yoga as physical exercises, which I'm interpreting is different to the long stretches. So in short I still really have very little idea of what it is that yoga is supposed to be about/what you are recommending. Can you link some useful instructions/DVDs/whatever? (I have not done yoga until the linked DVD about a week ago. Those books whist informative do not appear to be practice instructions.)

I use the books of Ray Long, M.D. for alignment, but the most important element of the stretching is a) not forcing anything (beware of the ego's desire to do/want too much) and b) long,slow, deep breathing.


These do look pretty useful. What is the difference between the mat companions and the scientific keys books? Which should I be getting first, or both?

Maybe you will find 7-heartbeats on the inhale and 6-heartbeats on the exhale, whatever


I tend to find I want to exhale longer, rather than shorter like you are indicating here. I normally try to do them equally but if it starts to drift off in one way, it always ends up with the longer exhale. Is this important at all? Not really sure the relevance of the different lengths, since you started with equal and then just switched over. I assume its not really that important, but I have heard of techniques where it is supposed to be important so want to make sure.

Regardless of how you count the length of respiration (one respiration = 1 inhale + 1 exhale), this long, slow, deep breathing is essential. Do no less than 5 cycles of such respirations.

This breathing will take each stretch you do to about one-minute in duration. That is a good start. Keep your mind (aka: the puppy) gently at the breath: no criticism, just thank the mind for coming back to the breath.


Are you saying a cycle of 5 long breaths should be done before each stretch? Or just in the warming up process? Or simply that having done the warmup breathing, I'll be able to hold each stretch that long?

About meditation: if you can be taught by U Pandita or his student, consider this opportunity. Use this place as a practice journal area. If you are not already, consider an alias for this time period.


Any particular reason for this? Just curious. Are you suggesting a seperate account, or just making this one more anonymous. I did change my last name over, though I do seem to remember reading a long time ago that it was encouraged to use real names on the DHO.

Also, I highly recommend (if you are not already), the consideration of sila, looking at what you see around you and in you. Sila is like meditation: it too gets deeper as the meditative practice goes on.


Can you make any particular suggestions here? Or are you suggesting that I follow the precepts. I'm aware of the importance of sila/morality as a training from MCTB, but not sure exactly what you're getting at here. I have had a couple of preliminary insights that point to how important this training can be and how much of a hidden impact it can have, but I don't especially understand this aspect too well.

If the mind is taught to welcome these experiences and it does these practices continuously as sati (not as "I am practicing open awareness) then dark night (knowledges of suffering (stages 5-10 in the Mahasi link above) can be transformed into equanimity.


I kind of lost where you were going with this sentance with the "continuously as sati" part. You're just telling me to make sure I'm actually being aware of all the senses as opposed to thinking thoughts about how I'm being aware of them?

With apologies for perhaps directing your thread too physically, but in response to your thoughts about Scheuermann's and your comment...


I appreciate your info and I do understand what you've been saying. The other area I was hoping for some insight into is how much of my physical symptoms relate to just the state of my body and how much are related to the dark night. Though finding someone who would know that is probably a tall order emoticon The stretching/yoga you're suggesting definitly seems worthwhile and I'll look into it, but my overall suspicion is that maybe completing the progress of insight is the more important factor - since everything got a lot worse for me around when I first hit A+P. There wasn't any physical changes at that time (that I know of) but I was pretty much pain free.

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