Question to all; Is there term, for having an insight experience, but not having understood the experience? i.e. no wisdom, or no fruition? For Example, seeing thought arise and pass away, but not not understanding that the thoughts are just an impersonal process. or noticing thoughts but not understanding that they are sensations of the brain, same as a sensation on the skin, or sensation upon the eyeball.

Further elucidation upon the question,

Intellectually "I" get it, but it seems to have to be incorporated at the "feeling" level. For instance I can tell that alot of thoughts that arise come from the environment, (mimetic) ,or from memories, or from associated thought, etc. These are easily dismissed for the most part, (use of Right Effort Formula, Right Concentration , Right Mindfulness) , So, as these are readily understood as Not "I",

But here is the dilemma:

And, I guess my second more important question:

What about the non-discursive thoughts, the thoughts used in contemplation and logical thinking, these sure do seem, to me , at this stage, that "I" am making them somewhere inside "my" thought machinery factory, that "I" am directing these thoughts towards conclusions and orchestrating thought into semi-coherent words and sentences. Is even my typing at this moment an impersonal process , of which my mindfulness and wisdom is just too weak to comprehend?

Questioning with sincerity and humility,

Psi Phi

Well, been contemplating a little on the question of , Why does there seem to be a personal nature to volitional, logical, thinking. It seems that as these thoughts/thought formations/samskaras/kamma arise, they arise in real time. In other words the thoughts that are perceived as if I am thinking and creating these thoughts, even the ones being created as I type this very moment, the thoughts are being observed as they are actually being formed, and/ or as they arise to the level of conscious awareness. This also coupled with the phenomenon of thoughts, being that they are combining from literally millions and millions of inputs/ reactions/memories/desire impressions from the glands/nerve endings etc etc etc, which leaves the "footprint" of newly arisen thought hard to reverse engineer the origin and to retrace exactly, ( due again to the multitude of factors involved.

So, the insight is that non-discursive thought seems to be created by us (aka illusion) because:

1) We are observing the thought formation in real time, watching thoughts form as they form, again not to confuse these with the discursive thoughts

2) There are millions of factors involved for the formation of new thoughts, the equation would be absurd

That's all for now, guess we just cultivate the thoughts (weeding, abandoning some, cultivating nurturing others)

then sit back and watch them grow, then cultivate again, path of purification



Best to all

Psi

You can have insight before fruition, that is what the stages of insight are.

The feeling level is the base, it is the embodiment, knowing your sad and being that embodiment in expression and crying is different. Yes.

That said, the four objects of insight include the mind, but that said, the mind is always intimately in relationship with emotions (still mind) with vedana (have you recognise vedana yet?) and with the body, somewhere in there is also the natural ability of the mind to recognise what is such as blue is blue and pain is pain. So thoughts, emotions and vedana (and recognition) are always in relationship with the body and consciousness needs to be mindful of this (mindfulness is not recognition as unmindful people still recognise blue and pain). Being able to see this relationship is 'Mind and Body' and 'Cause and Effect' the first and second insight stage.

So if you have really understood this mental aspect you will see how it is in constant relationship with the body!!!



Yes I guess.

But does an enlighten person or a person with insight see every leaf on the tree or just clearly their relationship with the leaf they are looking at? By this I mean each thought can be a new thread, this means a question just makes more questions.

'The recognition' is in relationship to the fact you are questioning, this might even be pre-conceptual, as in pure awareness in recognition.

The Existentialists prioritise being and say that our sensory experience is a big part of who we are in the moment, and when we continue to frame existent wholly in thought, its like we forget the other ⅔ of our existence, that is occuring right now.

While we neurotically plan and regret, or think about the past and future. Thinking is there, we don't need to stop it, but what else is going on?

A hell of a lot, and its changing all the time, and our thoughts are constantly labelling and cognitively interpreting our experience, also sometimes our thoughts are just plane wrong about our experience, mental bullshit. Any reasonable good counsellor can see this dilemma within the human experience. have a look at Eugene Gendlin's Technique called Focusing. It is a process of connecting with unconscious truth by listening to what the body is saying, through this process people start to really realise what is going on in their mind, which is constantly reacting to things held within the emotional body or the pain body or both. When your in a lot of pain its hard to be happy, you become that pain, that pain is you. Go visit a hospital or an old peoples home.

Seems fairly true, assuming I'm interpreting your words correctly. My question for you is, do you get an periods of peace and calm in your min an body? When was the last time you really looked at a tree or ate and apple and was totally present with that. Thoughts are good, thinking clearly is good, but what about being, do you care about being?

About being, just being , to answer, why yes, most assuredly, mostly discursive thoughts simply do not arise anymore, and if they do, (it is due to my own negligence of not guarding the sense doors, and staying mindful/bare attention) Now it seems it is just a process of herding up the rest of the negative habitual tendencies and introducing them to cessation (through their non-nourishment) and of course uprooting the three main unwholesome roots completely...

But to look at a tree and eat an apple and be totally present? If by that you mean to have no judgements about it, labeling or having stray thoughts arise, remaining equanimous and clear minded. My goal is tranquil unremitting mindfulness for every moment of the day, and if the mind strays to bring it back to the wholesome states (brahma viharas) from the point of recognition going forward, no blame just change. And indeed I know there is much work to be done, I have many flaws. I just go down by the metaphorical river bank and clean my soiled cloth every day to the best of my abilities.

Oh, I almost missed the Q: Do I care about being? Hmmm, can't answer that right away, I don't want to lie, and I am not sure....

Anyway thanks for responding and being insightful, I have read some of your other posts and am glad you have had success in this very life upon your spiritual path

Well said.