Daniel Ingram talking about the hardcore (pragmatic) dharma movement on video:

Part 1: http://vimeo.com/23539030

Part 2: http://vimeo.com/23567498

Part 3: http://vimeo.com/23568408


Edited to say Daniel starts talking about the stages of insight from 44.35 in the first video and continues in the second. Pretty awesome descriptions.

Oo fun! What's the context of the videos? Like where was this, what group was he speaking to, etc.?

He starts talking about PCE/AF practice at 39:10 on the 3rd video.

This is really great, Daniel.

Thanks for doing this.

Really excellent videos, and quite a broad range of topics covered with a very sensible, realistic mention of AF practice without distracting from the subject at hand. I think he also makes an important distinction when he talks about being free of affect as being a different developmental axis from insight, this seems like a reasonable view to take and helps keep these things in pespective.

Thanks Daniel, love the sound effects.

The distinction between technical practitioner and not is very interesting.

Hi All-
The videos were recorded at the Cheetah (Citta) House for Contemplative Studies (www.cheetahhouse.org) which is the residential portion of Brown University Contemplative Studies Initiative (www.contemplativestudies.org). Cheetah House was founded to support dedicated practitioners in their meditation practice, particularly through some of the more, well, "difficult" stages.

Brown's Contemplative Studies Initiative is the interdisciplinary investigation of Contemplative experience from scientific (neuroscience, psychology) and humanities (Religion, Philosophy) perspectives. The Contemplative Studies Research Laboratory (www.brittonlab.com) is currently investigating "Difficult Stages of the Contemplative Path" and invited Dan Ingram to give a talk on the stages of insight with particular emphasis on the Dark Night stages/ Dukkha Nanas, and how to best navigate them. A video that summarizes that project can be found on the same vimeo website, and/or on the Contemplative Studies website under the Research tab.

Thanks Daniel for everything. I hope the videos are helpful,

Willoughby Britton, Ph.D.
Director of Research, Brown University Contemplative Studies Initiative
Department of Psychiatry and Human Behavior
Brown University Medical School
http://research.brown.edu/myresearch/Willoughby_Britton

Thanks for posting it up, Britton.

Just checked out the website for Cheetah House.. what an interesting concept.
How did you find Daniel's book?

One of the arms of the "Difficult Stages" project included asking Buddhist scholars if Buddhist texts referred to any meditation-related difficulties. We asked Alan Wallace, Thupten Jinpa, Bob Scharf, Marie Heim, John Dunne etc and we got a lot of references to the VSM and Mahasi's Progress of Insight. But the actual descriptions in those texts are pretty brief, and one of my Religious Studies Students found the Daniel's interactivebuddha website, and was like " you should check out this guy Daniel Ingram, he talks about the stages of insight" so I went to the website a took one look at the book cover with the lightening bolts and the Arahant designation and totally disregarded him as a lunatic. I forgot about it for months, while continuing to interview meditators who had run into difficulties (terror etc) on retreats. But then my students kept sending me Daniel's descriptions of the stages 5-10 and they were pretty similar to what the research subjects were reporting in the study, so we invited Daniel to come talk about it more. We have also interviewed Jack Kornfield, Gil Fronsdal, Sylivia Boorstein, Shinzen Young and a bunch of other teachers.

Sounds like a really fascinating project happening and it'll be great to hear more as it progresses. Have you even spoken to a guy called Ron Crouch on here, or over on Kenneth Folk Dharma? He's a psychologist and also got 4th path, the same as Daniel and various others here, and I think he's currently researching along similar lines so perhaps it'd be useful to see if he's got anything to say on the matter?

Either way, thanks for making these videos and uploading them. Excellent work!

Yes, Ron is working on my project. We have been talking about maybe setting some kind of roundtable at the upcoming Buddhist Geeks conference.
Kenneth Folk was up here this weekend and he gave me a great interview on the Dark Night.
Any other suggestions about people you think we should talk to, either teachers or practitioners with particularly extreme dark nights, let me know.
Thanks for your encouragement. Not everyone is so enthusiastic about this project!

That sounds really amazing actually, there's also people like Jackson Wiltshire who's studying to be a psychotherapist and is a very skilled practitioner, and I think that there's a few more people with therapeutic backgrounds and strong skills around here and KFD too.

I'm actually very surprised at the lack of enthusiasm! I suppose there's still some controversy around openly discussing this stuff within certain circles, but I'd have hoped that people who'd experienced this sort of stuff would be more open to talking about it if it's going to benefit others.

As for extreme Dark Night stuff, I've had my fair share of nigh-on psychotic moments both with this particular map and within other traditions. I don't know that it'd be of any use to you but I'd be more than happy to provide any information you require which might help in any way.

Just wanted to add that I also hope this project goes well! enthusiasm yea!!

I've also had some painful dark night stuff myself.. not sure if one could label it 'particularly extreme' or not but they were definitely the most painful times in my life.. sure sucked at the time! Realizing one is capable of so much suffering is a good motivator to keep going.. And I still haven't quite fully stabilized yet anyway, but I'm working on that.

I hope the project does well! I can't imagine what would've happened to me at the worst of the Dark Night if I didn't have some idea of what to do with some knowledge of what is coming ahead and this forum full of knowledgeable people to help me along. I hope as a result of your work fewer and fewer people have to go through that. My particular interest is drug-induced A&Ps.. lots of stories on Erowid about people who keep taking LSD to try to find an answer, some answer, but never quite make it.

Funny that I just graduated from Brown last May.. had no idea something like this was around. But I also hadn't heard of the hardcore dharma movement by then and didn't really know what was going on, though I was probably past the A&P already by then.

Anyways, good luck!

Will you upload videos of some of the other teachers you interviewed?

It's funny that people get this kind of reaction to Daniel's book, but if someone writes about "emptiness as the ground of reality from which everything arises and to which everything returns," or about "divine compassion" or "the non-state beyond words" or some other such bullcrap, it is very well received.

My first reaction when reading the book was: "ah, it is possible to write about this stuff without adding any bullshit."

All the other interviews are audiofiles, not videos. There may be some teachers that wouldn't mind being caught on record talking about meditation-induced trips to the psych ward, but most of them are high profile, have written lots of popular books, have huge followings and probably don't want that discussion broadcast widely. There is a balance between informing people about the wide range of experiences that can occur with practice and scaring people from even starting. Having seen people who have stumbled into deep trouble with no idea what was happening and no help, I am on the side of "informed consent". But I am also sympathetic to the concern that talking about difficult stages will cause a knee-jerk reaction against all meditation. So that is a long answer to your question: the other interviews will probably not be available to the public.

This is a good point and I think it's pointing to a big part of the problem, most people think, due to years of pop-psychology and self-help bullshit, that meditation is all fun and games, that by sitting on a cushion for 10 minutes a day you're life will be transformed in wonderful ways when, as you and every single person here knows, it's so far from the truth.

I really hope that, however long it takes, this research and your entire project will help lead to a clearer understanding of this as it's something which needs to be examined. The spiritual crisis is inherent in every tradition from Buddhism to Christian mysticism so the lack of honest, straightforward discussion on the matter, not dressed up in metaphor and esoteric symbolism, is baffling!

If I come across any other teachers or high-level practitioners willing to talk about this then I'll drop you a message.

Yes - I keep my mouth shut about stuff usually because thats the reaction. If someone isn't in the DN then they don't want to hear about it and think you are screwed up, and have that unspoken belief that meditation progresses only to more open and 'nice' states. Pretty much the only person who needs to know is my significant other... "Uh honey sorry if I seem distant today I had an A&P yesterday and now I feel like crap. It will pass, has nothing to do with you...."

Great videos - although for some reason #2 gets stuck around the 40 minute mark for me. I will try a different browser or connection.

I had such a great time up there.

Thanks very much to all the Cheetahs, and especially to Willoughby and Jud, who were excellent hosts.

Thanks for posting the videos. I am glad someone got something out of them.

Daniel

You could talk to Viggo Johansen. He is my teacher and has some different perspectives on handling the dark night than others here. He thinks you can do a lot to make it less problematic by holding the right cognitive perspectives on it and by doing qigong on the side and by having previously done adequate psychological work. He also experiences zero of the destabilizing effects of insight practice that are described by most or all of the people at this forum despite doing a couple of hours of insight practice a day on top of energy practices like spinal breathing and qigong. He says that insight practice only makes him more stable and draws him into life not the other way around. He has several explanations for why that is and why people who practice in the way done here experience instability. Here is his email:

johansen.viggo@gmail.com

He is also soon going to do a phd on intensive qigong and meditation, is a cognitive therapist and is very up to date on psycholgical research and research that tries to bridge the gap between spirituality and western psychology.

You could also contact the people who run kundalini awakening process. They are unusally good at helping people who undergo harsh kundalini awakenings. I have talked to people on other forums that have struggled with kundalini for years, decades even, that have gotten back into balance within a few weeks after getting guidance from them. One of hte teachers used to be involved with kundalini support network I think.

Anyone know of a lab with funding in Chicago that's doing meditation research? And/or research on effective psychotherapy? (preferably non-CBT, but that would work.) For a few years, I've been considering doing a clinical psych PhD. My grades, test scores, etc. are competitive. Any advice much appreciated.

Ridiculously motivating, informative and humanising. However, now I'm definitely unsure where I am in terms of nanas, after finishing watching all three. Better keep practicing and find out, then. ;)

Nik/Dan, any chance of getting these put on youtube or Ted.com? I've never been able to get vimeo working on my pc for some reason. Thanks.

If you login/register you can download the videos (look right of the comment field on the video page).

Thanks paul

This is split off as the previous thread had died and this is a new topic about Ron's podcast.

These videos have been moved and can be found at:


http://vimeo.com/28182419
http://vimeo.com/28182458
http://vimeo.com/28182481

Looks like these Vimeo videos have been changed to private and now requires a password to view them. Anyone know why this is the case? 

Thanks!

Jim

I don't know, but will ask Willoughby.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Daniel

cool! thank you, looking forward to seeing those again.  3 times wasn't enough yet... :-)

They seem interesting, but don't work. I'm logged in in Vimeo and can't see the ones in the original post.
Another poster showed another link but it requires a password.

Hey, is there any update on what happened to the videos?

thank you

I sent another email to Willoughby asking what's up. Will let you know when I know something.