So, in the Hardcore Direct Pointing thread, I suggested this should be demonstrated here, on the Dharma Overground.

What we'll need here are:

• A DhOer who wants to try this, maybe stuck at one of the insight stages, who believes it will help them to get a good whiff of no-self. If you are going for Actual Freedom, this could be of interest as well (think "dismantling the social self", among other things).
• A RTer who is willing to point, here on the DhO, in the open, as opposed to the RT forums or privately

This thread should only be used for this one purpose; discussions of the approach should happen in other threads, such as the one linked above (new threads preferably in this sub-forum).

Takers?

Cheers,
Florian

Thank you, Florian, for the invitation.
I'm in. With pleasure.

Now we just need a volunter, who is ready to look for himsef/herself how this works. I will be pointing and asking questions all you need to do is be totaly honest and answer what you see.
I will help with all I've got.

Ilona, do you want help or would you rather work one on one for this one? Things could get confusing with too many hats in a single thread.

Let me know...

thassa

thank you Thassa, I'd say that one on one is the most focused way, which woud work the best here. but if you feel that you really want to say something, do so.

OK, since I'm lost somewhere in the middle paths, let's try this. I want to perceive no-self/no-Self at all times. What should I do? My self/Self is 'the watcher' that is located in my third eye area - an awareness in which objects arise and pass away. I have already seen the cessation of mind and body, of intention, and of consciousness - so I know I'm not those things.

Hi Rin,
Thanks for jumping in.

first, there isn no such thing as no self/no Self. No self is not to be percieved, but once you through, it is seen, that there is no self at all in real life. so let's not capitalise self, but see if we can find it.

how do you know that your self is located in 3d eye area? is it true? check again. look for yourself there, is it? how do you know it is there?

self is not awareness. awarenes does not need self to exists. it just is.

I have just had a conversation with somebody on this topick, you might find it useful. Here



answer me when you ready, not just whatever comes to your mind, but really look first.

thank you.

Thank you for doing this.



ok



The seeing happens and then arises a feeling of a watcher in the 3d eye area. The location, I think, is connected with the location of the eyes - since the seeing happens at the eyes. I just feel it there. I understand intelectually that it might be false, but that does not stop the feeling from arising. It's the same self that controls this body. Again, I understand that body movement could be happening on it's own, but there is still a feeling that the self is controling the body.



Yes, it's useful.

Let’s look at the body. Does it really need a manager? Notice, how all processes are going on by themselves: heart beat, breathing, digestion. Notice, that when there is an itch, it is followed by a scratch, effortlessly. See instinct, reflexes. When you walk, do you control walking, or does it just happen?

Do you have a pet? If you do, tell me, is there a self in it that drives body? If you don't, get outside and watch a dog somewhere. How does it work?


Seeing does not happen at the eyes, it is a visual impulse interpreted by the brain. Same like every other sense- touch, hearing, taste, smell- brain processes the information and makes a decision. Does it need a self to do that? Is "self" brain manager? Does brain need an "I" to tell it what to do? If so, how about a new born baby, is there an "I" there? Notice, what drives the baby?

It does not need a manager, but I can, for example, decide to stop breathing and then I'm in control of that one body process. The same is with walking - I make an intention to move my legs and then the actual movement happens - therefore I control the body movement with intentions.



I don't believe that there is a self in animals, but they function just on instincts. Humans are different, we are more than just instinct. Even dogs can be trained to control themselves to a certain degree.



The brain does not need and 'I'. There is no 'I' in the new born baby, but we grow up and evolve from that simple state. I hope 'no-self' is not what baby experiences.

of course humans are different! they think, or do they? let's examine thought.

where does a thought come from?
can you control thought? can you stop thinking at will?
when you get annoyed and the flow of thoughts keep coming feeding itself on drama, can you just stop that?




so when is the "self" given to you? and how does it instruct the body to move if not by thought.

No, brain does not need an I. I is just a thought. "I" is a label which points to nothing. There is no such thing as self, only thoughts ABOUT SELF. simple example is word univercity- it is a label, but there is not such thing. buildings are not univercity, students are not univercity, information, professors are not univercity, but all the things combined are labeled as "univercity" so we all know what we are talking about. have a look with the thought at the thought itself.

look:
i think
i dont's think, thinking happens by itself.

both sentences are just thoughts.

so answer me, who/ what is thinking?

I don't know, it just comes.



Yes, I can control thought and stop thinking at will.



At an early age. Not by thought, by intention. There is a difference. Thought can exist without intention.



Ok, I get this intelectually - there is no thinker, but there is still a self that is observing and controling the mind and the body.

ok, cool, so you get it intelectualy.

right. now have a look at real possibility that it might be no self at all in real life. imagine, what it would be like. how it all would work. it should not be difficult, because it already is. all you need to do is notice the obvious.

so just say to yourself, what if, there is realy no control, just life happening. no self at all.

see what comes up. notice if there is any fear, uneasiness, resistance to the idea.

i'd like you to get creative, write lots, not in two words, but in paragraphs, just see what comes up. it is important at this stage to indentify, what you see. inside and outside.

go.

Rin, where are you? come back! what is it that you see?

I'm here. I don't know how to get creative and write lots.

I have the most resistance to the 'no control' idea. It does not line up with my experience. I've spent years in meditation trying to control my mind. So, I've been trying to see 'no control' in action, but nothing happens - I'm expecting some shift to happen and then 'no-self', but nothing - the self (controler, observer) is still here.

ok, don't worry about writing lots, just write with whole honesty
all is happening by itself. no one is here to control anything. life is just free flowing, it does not need a manager at all. thoughs come up, body responds.

can you forget just for a couple of minutes your years of meditation and just look with fresh eyes.

if there is resistance, there is fear. have a look at the fear that is wrapped up around "no control" idea. bring it closer. look at the fear itself. what is it protecting? can you see that it is a mechanism to protect something from being found out? can you appreciate, how well the fear is doing it's job?

can you let that fear just be there without trying to fight it or change it? if so, can you look behind the fear itself and see what is there? what is it that needs protection?

relax about the shift, it's so subtle you may not even feel it and when looking back you may not know when exactly it happened.
for now just look at what is it that fear is protecting?

I think it protects a habit of looking at the world in a specific way - as if my self was the controler. Anyway, I managed to talk myself out of resistance to the 'no control'. I went for a walk outside and seen that the body does not need a me to control it. Walking was just happening, intentions to move were just happening, typing now just happens. But there's still no shift.

Let go of the expectation for shift. There won't be any bright lights, no angels gonna sing. Just observe now, how everything is happening by itself. Just notice the obvious.

Nothing is gonna shift. Everything already is as it is.

Yes, thoughts come up, typing happens. Everything happens effortlessly. Now look at the thought "I" what do you see?

I see the observer - looking out through the eyes - observing the mind and the body. I just can't imagine a world without the observer.

There is observing happening, but, there is no observer.

Yes, I'm observing the observer. How many of 'us' are in here?

None.
zero.
0

Who is obseving? This is just a thought. Like any other.
It is real only in thinking. Thoughts appear and dissapear. By themselves.
I think, I observe-> thoughts.

There is thinking happening
There is observing happening.
There is labelling experience happening.

There is no observer same way that there is no breather.

Are you still here?

Yes I am. I'm walking around trying to see 'no controler' and 'no observer'. I dropped my meditation for now. I will take another walk now and try to see this in action.

I just had a job interview and I find it hard, when I'm in contact with other people, to hold the no controler and no observer in mind. It's like my mind wants to hide these things from other people. It the same feeling I get when attaining the state of Emptiness when other people were around me.

Great idea to take a walk.

Who is trying to hold the "no controller mind"
Don't try to hold, let go! Just let it be revealed. Notice what is happening effortlessly.

This conversation may help you, there was a control issue there too.

Writing helps move forward. Write what you see. Do it now.

So, everybody is getting awake except me. ;-)

I don't really have anything new to say. I'm still trying to see no controler and no observer, but I'm not getting anywhere. I look at my body and I see it as no self. I look at the mind and I see it as no self. But there still this observer/controller in here.

It still seems like I have to direct my mind in a certain way to see the 'no controller'.

How can you see no controller? It's not a thing to be seen, you are expecting to see something that is not there! Like no controller can be seen. It can not. It's not a thing hiding, there is nothing to see there.

Look, there is no controller at all in real life. What feeling comes up when you look at this? Is there a fear of loosing control? What is behind that?

If I you believed that Santa is real and I told you that there is no Santa at all in real life, would you be looking for no Santa? You can not find no Santa, because it can not be found. Do you see that you are trying hard to find something that is just not there. Instead turn around and look for what is obvious, why there is no Santa. ( it's a made up fiction that exists in imagination only, it has character, but in real life there is no Santa!)

There is no observer, just observing happening by itself. Like breathing is happening. ( is there an identification when you eat, are you an eater then, or when you go to toilet, are you labelling yourself as pisser? See where I'm going with this? Are you the hearer when listening to music? Mind labels experience and we get confused when we think that labels are things. "i am observer"-it's a label, while observing is simply happening?)

There are thoughts arising that say:
"I don't see no contoler"
"I don't see no observer"
You don't have to believe thoughts, but look at the thought itself. Thought- label.

Thoughts come up and go. Look at the thought " I "
What does it point to? Anything real? Is there an I in real life that is observing or controlling? It's just a thought! Thought does not observe, does it?

What do you need to do for observing to happen? look there.

I guess I'm looking for a different mode of perception where there is no controller/observer.

I don't have fear of losing control - there is nothing behind this.



To prove myself that there is no Santa I would go everywhere searching for Santa - if he can not be found then he does not exist. In the case of self I have only this mind and body to search through. Are you suggesting that I should only think about why there is no self?



It happens by itself, but after that, the self/observer also arises by itself.

it's not about perception. go behind that.



how would you search for santa? north pole? really?
may i suggest, look around the room, notice what is real. that is table, monitor, keybord. things, that are in front of your eyes. word table points to table. what word I points to? it's just a thought.
when you think of santa, there is no such thing to be found. same like batman, it's only a name of a character. Rin has his likes dislikes, habbits, but all is happening by itself. there is a play going on, flow of happenings and all is here now. already full.
there is no actor, only the act. there is no observer, only the act.



so everything is happening by itself. right?
tell me if it's true? test it. get outside and look at totality of things.

tell me what is that last bit that is in a way for seeing?

Hm, what's up.
If you don't talk, can not help.
Are you giving up?
Seriously, it takes a couple of minutes to see, but lifetime to try to avoid it.

........

You are seeing it already, but confusion in the mind says "no". Is this possible?

It's just that I don't have anything new to say. I'm not giving up until this is finished - until there is no self at all. I'm tired of this self and I'm tired of practice.

I don't think I'm seeing it.

Hello Rin

I just tried doing it sitting in front of the mirror, did not get any break through, but will be trying out again.

Maybe you can also give it a shot


cheers

Omg.

START LOOKING!

You do it by writing what you see! Write what you see! Write! Not just one line that you don't see, write what you see!
Go!

OK, I see the body with all of it's parts. I can't find a self there. I see the mind with all it's parts - intention, attention, memory, imagination, consciousness, inner voice, time, space - I can't find a self there. All of these phenomena are observed and are not the observer. They are happening by themselves and are not the controler. I see the outside objects, they too are not the self.

So, when I focus I can't find a self anywhere. But it still keeps coming up - it's a feeling of being a self. It's just a feeling, but I can't get rid of it.

Close your eyes. See what's there. Watch the feeling. There is a definite feeling "I am", same like always since you can remember. This feeling is feeling of am-ness. It's the only true thing that it's known. I am.

Don't try to shake it of or get rid of it. it is not possible.

Instead look at what the mind does. Thought arises " I am self" " I feel self" this is a feeling of self" "I got to get rid of it"

Look at the feeling without labelling it.
Where is the self?

It's just a thought.

What is feeling this feeling? Is there a feeler and feeling separate from each other? Feelings arise and go away. Feel- ing happens in awareness. So look here.

I can see that you can write, so write what you see.

It's not about getting rid of anything, but seeing that all is here now already complete.

Ok, I close my eyes, I hear the sounds. I can feel the am-ness. There are also body sensations and memory, they indicate I'm positioned somewhere in space, but there is just memory, body sensations and space - no self to be found there. Thought arise. They think it's possible to get rid of am-ness, but I'll do that after I get enlightened. ;-)

The feeling of am-ness arises after the body sensations. There is no feeler in here.

Thoughts don't think.

.......


You are right here, seeing it already.
Seeing is happening by itself, just like everything else.

........

Is there anything separate?

Life is. Reality is. All that is here now. 
That's all there is. 

Thought doesn't think. 
I is thought, thought is label and it can not think itself.  

This is where all gets clear.  
When one sees that "I need to see" is just a thought appearing by itself, seeing happens.

There is still this habit of imagining an observer that is somehow seperated from the world. When I search for it then it isn't there, and it seems funnny when I think about it, but if I'm not careful my mind gets this observer into existence. Does this habit disappear when awakened?

Good good, you see there is a habit of imagining observer.
Look at what is habit.

Can you see that it's a thought pattern that keeps reapearing in awareness.
Look behind habit, is anything there?

You are saying that you are searching for it, what is searching?
Does search need "you" to happen?

There's nothing behind the habit, as you say, it's just a thought pattern. The searching is another habit, maybe from meditation. It does not need me. It just happens.

So...

Keep going. Getting interesting what you have to say.

And?....
What is going on? Spill it!

Nothing. My mind is still putting the observer into existence somewhere between the eyes. It's a lifelong habit, I think it will be difficult to change it. It's funny - when I look I can't find the observer, but my mind is still creating the observer. It's like I'm living in a contradictory state.

Also, there's a subtle sense of self that comes from the body sensations - a feeling of self that is positioned somewhere in space. It would be interesting to find a state where there is no body sensations - I could then see the difference.

Ok, what is this? Trying to get into a state? This is not about a state, at all. You can play and experiment with body sensations laterr, but now focus.

The body is biological machine, just like every other living creatures body. It runs itself. Brain gets impulses from the environment and makes decision. It is crazy to think that once you see through no self thingy, all sensations will cease to exist. Your body is not gonna evaporate. Everything is already as it it is.

You are looking at it, but still keep bying into belief.
Answer me, what is thought, what is habit? What creates habit? Can you see that it is not you thinkin, but thoughts appear in awareness like these words on computer screen. without "you" doing anything.

Stop beating around the bush and look!
It's right here, now, looking happening. See???

Thought is a mental copy of the body's perceptions. Habits are thought patterns, they create other habits and habits are created by previous actions of the mind and body.

Thought is that which apears in awareness, mental energy, expressed in words.
Body's peception? No- it is not connected to a body. Body is kind of like a vessel, that holds brain which allows the thinking process to happen.

Mind is connected to the body through physical brain.
It's like an operating system for the body. There are various programs running and some of them clash. Others agree, anothers fight and infect whole system.
Habits are programs, that repeat.
There is nothing that manages the programs, but all are running simultaneously.

What I'm trying to show you is that you look at this mechanism and notice, that thought " I " is just a label, just a thought that does not think itself. Thinking happens itself.

" I feel my self at the 3rd eye" is a thought.
I don't feel myself at 3rd eye is a thought.

There is no one thinking it, but it just flows through awareness as a part of whole flow.

It's time to realise.

Look again at the thought.
Look at the thought " I "
Look at the thought: there is no self in real life, but life happening by itself. Right here, right now.

This is mental BS, Rin.

Look and give something better.

Ok rin, let's make a deal. Either you start looking and writing what you see or leave. So far you have demonstrated zero desire to crack this thing, It's either you are dumb or lazy, I don't know since you don't say much here.

So start fresh and show what you got. And be completely honest.

Is there a "you" in there?

Ok, I give up this direct pointing, it's not working for me, I'll get back to vipassana. Thanks - it's been nice talking to you - hope you free a lot of people.

Why give up, Rin? It was good of you to step forward and volunteer, and it would be better to get to freedom. Continue practice and also doing the looking. It's frustrating to do this, but the sense of frustration could mean freedom from self is close. And there is no need for using one method over or the other... whatever works. Do both!

See what's written here in that quoted text?

The "I" was subtley tripped over on the way to the looking. That is actually what is habit. The "I" or self is lifelong habit. There is no mind. There is no putting. These are thoughts arising without a controller. See how it is not controlled? Did the You command it to appear? So even this "struggle" does not exist. It too is more thought, a loop.

See the mechanism. Look at the thought rather than into it. Observe it arising. Try this:

Thought: "I can't see the no self."
Thought: "Purple pigs fly by flapping orange wings."

Both are thought, equally, and share the same mechanism. Thought is real. The content of thought is not. Additional thought follows each, forming thought judgements of "true" or "not true", based on more thought. Take a step back and look at that mechanism. None of is has a controller. If there was one, this thread would be finished.

"When I look I can't find the observer, but my mind is still creating the observer." - Thought cannot find thought. The mind, with no director, is still creating the observer, which it labels "I".

So which on is it:
Scared,
Dumb
Or lazy

Honestly?

If you easily give up, you won't make it in vipassana either, do you see?

It's better to work one on one. Contact Ilona by message here on the board and she will continue with you on email. She will not give up on you, even you are are in doubt about yourself.

For the past week I helped 3 guys from this board to look and see the illusion. It's possible. And possible now.

Read this: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. DONE.

Yes, I'm the source of all intention, I'm also the observer that is detached from the world.

But I already said that and described my experience in detail, I don't know what else to say. It feels like we're going in circles. I'm not a person who will talk much, and I can not talk my self into being free. So, I have doubts that direct pointing will work on me.

try doing vipassana, then! try seeing the no-self characteristic, really really intensely, real-time, every moment, using their questions as pointers. you can even note if you want to.

they're asking you to look. isn't vipassana essentially looking? they aren't 2 completely separate techniques.

do you do formal meditation sits? try looking at what their questions are pointing to with at least the same amount of effort as a sit.

it's like trying to learn to get 1st jhana, and after sitting for the first time for 1 minute you say 'i can't do it; my mind wanders too much'.

I was directly pointed to look at what was thought to be self by Daniel Ingram. I write about it here. I did it via noting my arse off!
The benefits were that I saw through the illusion of self, AND developed my yogi skills to access the jhanas by will of mind alone, and have made exceptionally fast progress to fetter free territory. Go for it, Rin!

:-) (Not condescending but genuine smile)

Edited to include a description of the direct pointing by Daniel Ingram


http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/yogi-toolbox-noting-part-1-nicks.html

Rin, I see you walking in circles and I'm hoping that you will hit the wall soon.
It is not about method.
It is about "you".
You that wants to see, can not, there is no you to see.
There is only seeing happening.
There is mind labelling what is happening and there is confusion in the mind. A bad data, data that is assumed for a real thing.

Don't worry, all is being resolved. And it does not matter what thought- labelings are going on in the mind. It's not up to them. They are not driving a process.

Write when you are ready, take a break, detach and look again.

I won't give up, but "you" needs to surrender.
Ask yourself, is it possible that thoughts are just like a radio, chatting away, labelling stuff, but no one is listening to them. There is no experiencer, only experience.

With love.

I'll try doing direct pointing and also vipassana.

I close my eyes. I try to see everything arising in awareness. There are body sensations, memory and space. They tell me that the body and memory are positioned somewhere in space. I try to ask: "Who am I" - I get the observer as the answer- it's like it's positioned somewhere out of space, but this observer does not seem real, I can't find any sensations that are associated with it. Maybe the observer is just memory. I stop trying to control my attention - I let it go - trying to surrender. I see all of the experience arising and passing away as objects in awareness, there is no subject. I try asking "Who am I" again, I can't find the answer. I move my body - the intention arises first and then the movement. It's seems like intention has it's source in 'me', but I can't find this source. I get out of meditation, my mind quickly gets the observer into existence.

Just answer me this:
Does intention rise by itself or does it need you to do something?

It arises by itself, but immediately after my mind dreams up a self that is the source of intentions.

Ok, can you bring this a little bit closer:
What happens first:
Intention or labeling?

Look at your left hand, now, notice how the looking happens. How does it work? Is there an intender there or not?

Intention arises first and then the conceptual mind.

It's like there comes an image in my mind of my left hand and then the looking happens.

I don't see the intender.

So intention rises by itself, mind labels by itself, there is no self to be seen anywhere...
You are looking right at it.

Looking is happening already. Now notice the obvious:
There is no one looking, but looking happening
There is no one seeing, but seeing happening.
There is no one labelling, but labeling happening.

Nothing requires " I " to do anything. All is flowing freely. Effortlessly.

See?

I understand it intelectually, my experience confirms it, but there still something I am missing. Otherwise I would shift to the 'no-self'. It still feels like I have to do something special for 'no-self' to happen.

There is nothing that you can or need to do.
Just relax now and let it unfold.
Notice, that there is no one here to let that happen.
Your job is done, now it's up to life itself.

The shift is very tiny, don't expect anything to happen, you may not even notice. Let this sink in for now.

Rin, look up here - vipassana guy too:

deep-honesty-of-this-man-breaks illusionhttp://completehumanity.blogspot.com/2011/07/deep-honesty-of-this-man-breaks.html

Rin, how is it going, my friend?
somebody appraoched recently with similar situation. it may help you, me thinks.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2011/07/it-was-easy-for-eric.html

It's ok, waiting for the shift to happen. Thanks for the link.

If you can see that everything is happening by itself, then shift is already happening.

But expecting for it to happen in a future is not gonna bring it closer, but keep it away.
Is it possible that it happened already, but mind still does not admit it?

I don't think the shift happend, I think I would notice it. There is no before/after, my experience is the same as it has been when we started this.

hi rin - is the very last paragraph starting with the words "The above quoted..." of this article useful to you?

Yes, I have done meditation for years, so I know that from direct experience. But how is the article related to this topic?

This is getting nowhere. I'm very surprised that after all this time, all these pointers you are still here, waiting for the shift to happen.
But then it hit me- thare is one ingredient missing!
What is it? - no burning desire for truth.
You came in here, like a student, "I'll see what happens". Not - I want it resolved once and for all now.
So I'm giving you all these pointers, spoon-feeding you like a baby and you still refuse to look for yourself.
I'm not here to teach you anything, so stop waiting and do it. Enquire within, doubt everything you know, instrucy mind to resolve, command, whatever, just get your intention straight. There is no urgency in your words, how can you see the true if you don't even want to.

This is what is gonna happen: you look, you see, that seeing happens by itself and boom, you don't believe in power of self ever again, as you see that it has never existed. It becomes just a word. That appears as a thought in awareness. The feeling of being is always here but it becomes impersonal as you know that I is just a label,

The boom is just as loud as finding out thet Santa is not real. Nothing special, just one belief less.
It requires balls to look for truth. courage, passion. You do it for yourself, not as see what happens. Nothing happens. Nothing. Nothing that is not happening already. All you need to do is reach out for it and it takes over. I see that reaching out is not here yet, I have to push you.
Jump!

I agree. We are wasting each other's time. I want to obtain complete control of my mind and body and I am also looking for an altered no-self state (the source of all intention and consciousness).



I have the complete desire for truth, but our definitions of truth are different. For example:



I have seen the state of cessation in non-being, so I know it's possible. After thinking about it, I realize that that is my goal.

So, thanks and let's end this thread, you'll have more time for others who need your help with this. It's not so bad, you have one failed student. ;-)

Rin
You are not wasting my time, no. I'm not leaving.
And you need to turn around, as you are facing opposite direction. If you want truth, truth is one, just plain and simple. If you want to stay in states, then it's not truth, as states do not stay permanent. They come and go like emotions, feelings and thought. Truth is stable and always the same. 
You have misunderstood this completely. I'm not guiding you to reach bliss and cease all sensations. You are so brainwashed to belief that. Omg. 

So if you want truth, seek truth, not your version of truth as you gonna keep banging the wall while walking in circles. 

It's like this: there is an assumption in your head that has been sitting there unexamined. Time to examine. 
Seeing truth and getting in a state is not the same at all. 

Can you see where I'm pointing to? 
Do you want truth no matter what?
So what do you say?

Yes I do. Ok, one more try to end this. I promise I will look with all I've got.

Rin, stay with Ilona. Stay no matter what. She won't leave you. She will stay with you until you done. No worries about time, her, about people watching, about thoughts "I can't make it" and so on. The only what you need to stay and continue with her. That's all that you need to do. Focus on this work. Everyone who contacted us through this forum, everyone went to the end. One more still working with Thassa, all others done. Just one focus, Rin - focus to stay put here.

Cool.
Lets do it.

It is true that mind creates all kinds of detractions and avoids to look within, so just focus.

I ask you now to write here all that you believe that liberation is about. What feels right, what you expect from it and what you want from it.

Just make a list.

I expect that the 'no-self' will be obvious in my experience. I want clarity, peace and sense of freedom. I also want full knowledge of dependent origination - up till now I have seen only parts of it.

What is dependant originator? please expand here.

There's an article here.

I have seen the cessation of mind and body, of consciousness and of formations. I expect to see the cessation of ignorance.

In your own words please. Not article. Tell me how you see the dependant originator thing.

Here is the upper part:

ignorance -> formations (conditioned things) -> consciousness -> mind and body

From ignorance arise formations, from formations arises consciousness, from consciousness arises mind and body.

When I attained stream entry cessation I believe I saw this: consciousness -> mind and body

When I attained the Self/Absolute state I believe I saw this: ignorance -> formations

With enlightenment, I expect to see the cessation of ignorance. I am still thinking if the Absolute/Self state is equal to ignorance. From my experience this seems to be the case.

When I go into meditation I am aware of certain parts of dependent origination, but not all of it.

Ignorance is nothing more than belief in thought of separation.
Once it is seen through the illusion of separation, ignorance is seen for what it is. unwilingness to question what is true. Mind creates all kind of difficulties and distraction, it does not want to simplify, it wants to complicate and solve problems. Then create new problems. Ignorance is letting the mind do this and feeding on it rather than look at mind itself and untangle all the confusion.
So yes, once it is seen, that thought does not think, ignorance drops.

Let's look at your belief what is enlightenment.

There is no self. No lower, no higher, no absolute, no no-self, but no self at all. Zero.

Hi Ilona, Rin. I wasn't looking for it but I got it.
Firstly, self and no self are the same experience.
It is experienced as self when we label it, "I".

When we notice observation happening, we label it as "I'm observing".
This creates a reference.point in space -in our mind/thoughts that we identify as I.
This also appears as a loop of self-observation, but it' s really just the mind linking the body as a POV, to the experience of observation.

The mind has this habit of linking all experience to a POV -
Aka, this body, and calling it I.

Anyway, the result is that I experience no big change. Everything is the same - I just don't feel compelled to insist that a feeling of I or a self need to exist.

Not enlightenment either.

I would agree, Rin. "I just don't feel compelled to insist that a feeling of I or a self need to exist." doesn't sound like enlightenment to me either.

Hi buddhi hermit, I see you are getting it intellectually. Please Email me so we can go through this until it's clear. I prefer working one on one, so it's no distractions. Let's leave this space for rin.

Rin, my friend. It feels that you are stuck.
Push forward.
Just write out all you beliefs what is enlightenment and how it should be. You need to get it out of the system in writing to see what's lurking there. Focus please.

I believe that the Theravada model is possible to achieve.

Enlightenment is seeing the dependent origination. It's the cessation of ignorance. The state of the arahat:





It's also peace, clarity and freedom.

Pease, clarity and freedom - yes. This is how life feels after seeing through illusion.
Now dependant originator, I'm not familiar with this concept, could you explain it to me as you would to a child. In simple words.
I want to see what is this idea and what it points to. I want to know what is your expectation behind this.

Dependent origination is a list of casual relations between phenomena.
It goes like this (the '->' can be read as 'arises'):

ignorance ->
formations (conditioned things) ->
consciousness ->
mind and body (personality or identity) ->
the six sense bases (five physical senses and the mind) ->
contact (between objects and the senses) ->
feeling (registering the contact) ->
craving (for continued contact) ->
clinging ->
becoming ->
birth ->
old age and death

So, from ignorance arise formations, from formations arises consciousness, from consciousness ... and so on ...

My expectation is the cessation of the ignorance and the cessation of everything that arises from ignorance.

Ok, cool, I get it.
Ignorance- what is it? What does this word point to? Can you examine it closer and tell me, what do you see there? What is the start of ignorance and where do you find it in you.

I see ignorance as unwillingness to look for the truth, as acceptance of various beliefs and not using your own head, but rather going with other 'sheep'. It's being asleep.

I believe ignorance is the ground of experience, the source of volition, the Self. Cessation of ignorance is groundlessness and no-self.

Believe nothing.
Take it as a fact- no believe is true.
Don't believe this one either, test it. Question and clarify.

Are we clear on: belief in self = ignorance
Seeing that there is no self = peace freedom and end of ignorance.

Stay with it until it's clear.
Then answer me this with whole honesty (not belief)

What is self? Look at it as at a label, thought. Where does it point to?

This body is separate from the other bodies. I can feel it's body sensations. I can't feel another one's body sensations. So, that means there is something separate there. So, sometimes, the self points to this body, but there is no self in the body, just the body sensations.

It's someone's body - there must be an owner of it - it's the mind that is separate from the other's minds. So, the self can point to this mind. But there is no self in the mind, it's only inner voice, attention, intention, imagination and memory.

Who is watching the mind and the body? Self sometimes points to this watcher that is separate from the mind and the body. But when looking at this watcher the self can not be found.

Something needs to be done - intention arises. From where? Self sometimes points to this source, but there is no self to be found in the source.

What is this self? I don't know. But it can point to a lot of things.

Yes, rin, there are bodies here, cats body is separate from dogs, rin's body is separate from other bodies. Every living creature is a form. And all these bodies are real. There is brain in each skull and each brain makes decisions based on sensory input and belief system. 

Brain is real, it processes information and decides. But is there a need for I to run the body? Does a cat have a driver that instructs brain what to do? 

If you look closely at what word "self" points to you'll see that it's only thoughts ABOUT self. Yes, self itself is not to be found anywhere. Only thoughts, concepts, memories about it. 

Is there somebody owning body of fish? What owns body of mouse? 
What owns body of monkey, how about human?? Isn't it an expression of life?

When a baby is born, is there an owner in there? Or is it just life energy that makes the body breath, interact, move, grow?  

When you were born, imagine a little tiny human, is there a self in there, if not, when is it given? 

Notice that when we learn to speak we  say word 'I', does that mean that body starts belonging to "I"? It's only language, labelling, in order to communicate with others. 

There is no self in the mind, there is no one owning the mind.  "mind" is also just a label to point to thinking processes. And thoughts appear and disappear by themselves.  There is no director there.  

If you were owner of mind, you would be able to stop thought in the middle, right? Can you? 

Remember we talked about labelling experience: 
breathing becomes I breathe, 
walking happens becomes I walk, 
thinking happens becomes I think, 
experience of watching is happening becomes I watch. 
Noticing is going on becomes I notice. 
Intention arises becomes I intend. 


It is function of mind to label experience. Only we assume that I is an entity experiencing life, while in reality I is just another thought in labelling process preceding other words as part of language. 

Can you see where I'm pointing to? 

Body senses environment through senses, brain interprets and makes decisions, mind labels experience and all this is going on without a manager. 
Can you see this? 

If not, what is not clear?

???????????????????
Are you still here???????

Yes I am, I'm not going anywhere. Everything is intellectually clear, but there's still no realization. I'm looking and missing something.

Ok, then, who is waiting?
What is rin?

Rin is a chain of memories. A set of intentional actions performed in this world. Personality created by conditions.

Is there a driver in there?

Yes, it's me - the self. I function like that in the world - observing and intending my mind and body. But when I stop, focus and look there is no driver to be found.

Really?
How?


You are not seeing it intellectually, only think you do.

Before you answer, read the whole thread again. All of it, from start to finish. Especially the part where we are talking about thought, and see if you can get where I'm pointing to. Then answer the same question. Is there a driver?

I've read it and my answer is the same.

There is a source of intention, and I am that source. That self hasn't fallen away yet. Mind and body arise within me. I intend my mind and body. So, yes, there's still a driver there.

yes there is a source of intention---- brain!
where does intention come from in a cat? cat wants to go outside, does that mean that there is a separate intender sitting in it's body and giving comands to ther body via wi-fi or something. brain makes decision, action follows. there is no driver in a person, just thoughts about person. so how can a thought create intention. it's just a though,

look:
i intend,
i don't intend, brain makes decision.

it's equaly a thought.

mind - body is here already. they don't arise in you, ther is no you. just an idea of you, which is in the mind. does cat arise in a cat? or does it also arise in you?? there is no you, my friend, it's time to admit it and see what happens.

just for a few seconds, admit it. drop defence and look, is there an intendor that is outside the mind? is ther a focuser? a thinker? a walker? a breather? a pisser?

Do I really need to poke you everytime?

I have nothing new to say. I'm looking, but the self is still here.

I don't see that you are looking.
I asked you lots of questions above and there is not one answer from you.
Can you follow the process by answering them one by one, with full honesty.
That's how you look.
Otherwise you just read and come back with nothing.

Yes, there is a pre-conceptual source of intention and I am that source. Intentions arise outside of the conceptual mind. There is also a watcher that is outside of the mind observing the mind, body and the world. This watcher is even before the feeling of time and space.

This is only a thought. A belief. You have been telling this to yourself and believe it.
There is no source outside of life.
Source is life itself. Does life need a separate source?

I is not a source, it's just a thought.

Is there a source of reality outside all that is?
What is behind all that is? Look there.

It's not a belief, it's my experience. There is a pre-conceptual source of the world. It's timeless, formless and there's no volition in there.

Is it the void that you are talking about?

Yes, the Void, Emptiness, Absolute, the Self ... it has many names.

Why are labelling void 'self'?
It's nothingness.
Emptiness.
Space.
In which life happens.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE VOID!!

Look again.
Don't call nothingness self, it's crazy!

Nothing is zero.

ZERO

What have you got to say about that? Huh?

Why do you call it space then? There's no space in it.

Have you tried attaining it when other people are around you?

It's the cessation of self and other, but I think there's still a subtle Self there (the watcher, the source of intention).

Haha, you see that void is not space, but you can't see that void is not watcher...
There is no gap between that which is being watched, the watcher and watching happening. It's all one!

"I am watcher"- just labelling of experience.

There is no I in watching.
There is just watching. Happening.
There is no you looking, but looking happening
There is no you seeing. But seeing happening..

There is no resister, but resisting happening ( see what's going on?)

Do you live in that state? If yes, how did you do it? Is there a feeling of existence in it?

It's not state, Rin.

Nothing changes, everything is the same as always been, chop wood, carry water.., only there is no more belief in separate entity. With this drop of belief suffering and ignorance drops too. Well, there is a cleanup time as well.

Life is. Self isn't.
It's very very simple. So simple, that it's overlooked.

So are you the void?

Yes, it looks that way. But my mind is maybe playing tricks with me, like it does with the watcher. I can't attain the void at will, I've had only momentary experiences (or non-experiences).

Take a fresh look. Doubt all you know. Just let truth reveal itself.

There is no you to attain anything.
There is no you at all. And it never was! It's just an unexamined assumption. Examine it. The mind is not yours. It's just thoughts. Labels, no power there...

Don't settle what it looks to be, check it. Test it. Look, there is no you. Void= nothingness=/= self. Self is an idea. Only. In the mind! Only a thought.

Can thought think?

Thoughts can not think. They arise and pass away in the void. There is no self there.

YES!!
So is there a self anywhere else in any shape or form? Has there ever been a self?

Rin, please answer this:
Has there ever been a self?

My experience still includes a self. There must be something subtle I'm missing. I can't get to the void. So, yes, there still a self.

look right here:

is it your experiance or experiance happening by itself + labbeling of the mind out of habbit "my experiance", " i am experiancing" thoughts are happening by themselves, effortlesly.
You can not get to the void, simply because there is no you to get there. there is getting and there is void. no you.


you are not missing anything. everything is happening already without you.
is 'I' anything more than a label? Check it.

one more angle:
imagine you are holding a spoon. Now, do it. imagine you want to get rid of it. what do you do? just stop imagining, as there is no spoon. look, your hand is empty.
same with the self. it is imaginary. how can you get rid of it if it does not exist. just stop imagining that it is. look around, there is nothing here that is self, it is only in imagination. that which is in imagination is not real. that which is here, now is reality, it does not dissapear if you stop believing in it.

your experiance has never been yours, simply plain experiance happening to no one.

notice the obvious.
what is obvious now?

C'mon, answer please.

My mind, body and the world is obvious.

It sounds easy when you say it - just stop imagining. But I can't. I still feel that there is something in here - the self. I've seen it go into cessation and it was freeing. Now it's back again - it's frustrating.

Let me ask you something:
Do you own the body?
Do you own the mind?
Do you own thought?
If so, since when??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E&feature=youtube_gdata_player


This is a video on scientific approach. You may want to watch it and then answer these questions.

Yes, I own my mind and body. I learned to control body movement at an early age. A little bit later, I also learned to control mind movement.

Can you imagine, what life would be like if there was no self? Can you describe how it would run all by itself? Just explore this scenario like a movie idea.
What would rin's life be like if there was no one there owning body?

I imagine every part of the body doing it's job. They don't need me to control them. I also imagine the mind arising and passing away in the void, without the self. The line between the self and other would go away.

It is already that, rin, look.
You just need to take one look. And be over with it. 

It is true already and it always was. Notice it. Right now. 

Take a look.

To see the truth one needs to take that truth in, accept the posibility that it's true, then look from that angle and let the truth reveal itself.

Have you looked?

There is no separate entity/self at all in real life, is it true?
Yes or no?

No. I looked and I can't find a self. But the feeling that I'm a self still comes up. It's this first person perspective that is tricking me. It's always been first person - then why not call it the self - my mind says. Even in the void there is this first person perspective, and yet self and other were gone. Then why not call it the Self? When I entered the void others did not see it, so even in the void there is a separate mind.

<No. I looked and I can't find a self.>

Yes, there is nothing to find. 

<But the feeling that I'm a self still comes up.>

This is feeling of aliveness, of beingness, 'am' + labbeing of the mind. 
Does this feeling need a feeler? 
Notice how mind labels every experience: I breath, when breathing is happening by itself.  I feel. I hear, I smell...

So the sense is there, yes, it's that which is always here. 
But it's not sense of self. Only mind labels it as self. There is no self. It can't be felt. Only thoughts about it are passing by..


<It's this first person perspective that is tricking me. It's always been first person - then why not call it the self - my mind says.>

Whatever mind labels it, there is no entity behind, there is no separate seer! It's seeing happening as first perspective.

Of course there is a first perspective- there is a human biological machine with amazing brain that navigates through life. How does a cat see the world? Same- first perspective! 


<Even in the void there is this first person perspective, and yet self and other were gone.
Then why not call it the Self? When I entered the void others did not see it, so even in the void there is a separate mind.>

There is mind, storries and labelling within as 'my mind', 'my memories', 'my past experience'. 

Why not to call it just life happening. That would be more accurate.  


Can you see that there is no you to see, but seeing is happening by itself? 

No, I'm still dreaming up a self behind the seeing. I don't know how to stop. I'm going in circles - this self is 'the watcher' from the first post.

You are not dreaming it up. There is no you.
You are not going in circles. There is no you.



You have to look, Rin, if there is a watcher. There is a belief in your system that there is a special witness that registers what happens. There is no witness. Only witnessing! Witnessing process!

It's experience of watching, noticing happening + labelling happening "I am watcher"- that is just a thought. All on automatic. 

You say there is no thinker. 
Why there would be a separate watcher other than life itself? 

Have a look for yourself- 
Is there a looker? Is there anything looking or  just a process of looking happening?

Life is living itself, there are no nouns, no static things, all is a process. Watching is a process. ( I am watcher is just a label that brain puts on experiance just out of habit. Is there anything behind this habit? )

First perspective is a view. It's not your eyes looking, it's life. Can you stop looking? Can you control what is being seen? 

Doubt everything you know for a minute and let the truth come through. 
And please write more, it really helps to cut trough.

I created this watcher in meditation. It's a disassociation. I want to be separate from reality so I can perceive reality clearly - like an impartial observer. So, I imagine a part of me being separate from the conditions of the mind, body and the world. Maybe it's time to stop meditation - I don't know.

Ok, next time you meditate, notice that the partial observer is not real. Find it, look right at it and see if there is anything behind the illusionary observer. 

Notice that there is no observer, only observation happening + labelling of experience happening all by itself. 

Close the gap between observer, observation and observed and dive into reality. Only then you can perceived it clearly, not from some detached view. The view is only thoughts about reality, not reality itself.
See what happens. 

I helped one dho guy before and he was meditating, no problem there, I think it would be helpful for you to read our conversation. You'll find it on my blog, it's the one with Tom. 

It's time to release the imaginary observer there is no need to hold on to it. It's in a way of seeing.
Get back to me with after your next meditation.

Ok, I close my eyes and get into meditation. There are body sensations arising and also energy, there is no self there. After the body sensations there arises visual memory of the outside world - it's like my mind is trying to recreate the first person perspective. I notice space and sounds. My internal voice seems to be a copy of the sounds, just like visual memory is a copy of seeing. After the space there arises a watcher, it's location is in the third eye area and is somehow separated from space, and it's object is memory. It's like it's watching my 'internal world' created in meditation. I can 'direct' this watcher with my imagination, which is like a copy of the body (the imagination). So, I'm in my 'internal world' and I try asking 'Who am I?' - I get this watcher as the answer. Intention arises from the source/void - it feels like they arise from 'me', but I know there is no self in the source, so it's a little bit confusing. I feel frustration from not being able to see the void. I know it's 'me', but I can not see it - like I'm unable to turn around and look at myself. I get out of meditation and my internal world disappears, but I still identify as the watcher.

Good stuff, rin, really good.
Next time you go back in to meditation, don't ask 'who am i?' but ask the watcher to come closer and watch itself. Ask it to reveal itself, to reveal his wisdom. Honour it as it is, bow to it and thank it for all the watching he does. Notice thought movement, see how labelling 'machine' puts label on experience : here is the watcher.

Then... Look behind.

Is there anything behind the watcher? Look if there is a separate entity from the watching itself, see if watching is happening without the watcher same way as breathing is happening without the breather.

Was it you that created the watcher? If there is no self, then is it possible that it was brain? And then thoughts labelled it 'I created a watcher'.

Let me know precisely what you find.

Ok, I'm trying to watch the watcher. I close my eyes, visual memory arises in the space and then the watcher in the third eye area. The object of the watcher is memory. I imagine that I'm located somewhere else in space - the watcher follows the imagination. The watcher is a copy of the first person perspective that I see trough the eyes.

I look behind the watcher, there's only black nothingness. There's no self there.

Ok, rin, time to do the maths.
Is there anything behind watcher other than nothingness? No
Is there a watcher at all in real life?- no, only in imagination.
It is free flowing imagination about the watcher being in control. Like a batman living in your mind. It's not real. Imagined.
Is there a self?- no

Do the math, Rin. This is assumption that watcher is real, test it.
Don't go into meditation, see it in real life. No need to go into special state, just look with fresh eyes, what is it that you know for sure? What can you know for sure? How can you know if watcher exists? How do you know klutzy it's not just a label pointing to nothing? ( you saw that there is nothingness behind)... Can you see what watcher really is? Just a label put over impersonal experience...

What thoughts come up here?

Ok, there's no watcher, only watching arising out of nothingness. It's been a play of imagination. Intentions arise from the void and there's no self in the void.

I look everywhere and there is no self. But why am I not seeing the void? Do you see the void as something obvious in your experience?

Let's look at what do you expect this to be? Blackout? Melting away into nothingness? Anything else like that?
Stop expecting and look at what is obvious right now. Immediately. Look here,
Is there a you typing this?
What is really going on?
Look at what is.

What do you see?

I've been in blackouts and in nothingness. They all included a cessation of something, so, I expect something to simply stop.

I just see the body typing out thoughts. It feels like I'm typing, but I can't find this I.

Of course I can not be found as it does not exist!
It this can be seen, then belief stops.
That's ALL!

Simple.
You are looking right at it, Rin. Just look deeper, there is no looker only looking!
No boom, just simple seeing this.

Dear Rin.

I wish we could finish this.
If you feel that emailing me privately would help you focus, please do so. It's markedeternal@gmail.com
I feel that I'm letting you down here as it has been going on for soo long.

Since we started lots of people approached me and got it, so I thought that it might be a good idea to try to do it private as that is how I worked with all them, exept you.

Please let me know how you want to carry on. Just don't leave it hanging.
Much love.

We have covered my experience and I understand 'no-self' intellectually. I just need to take this thread into meditation and rework my old habits. That is how I'm used to doing things anyway. I'll report back when the shift happens.

That is also an old habit.

I see it's going like this- every effort is there to prevent looking.
One look and illlusion goes.. puff.
But to get to the looking bit mind plays every card. So just drop the habit and look. You get that there is no self. No self looking. No self seeing, but plain simple seeing and recognising that which is real from that which is not.
Real v imagined.
Real life happening now and imagined I in it, assumed for real entity.

How would it feel to be free?
How does it?

Still there?
What's cooking?

Read this, rin.
As if are that professor.

Hey, Rin! Contact Ilona or anybody who works with direct pointing on this forum (me, Thassa, Viv) - we've get you through. It's indeed very difficult to do it on the open forum like this - not you, not the guide feel open enough for real deep looking - this work can hit emotional barrier, and then private work is essential. Rin, I just helped a guy with 46 years of Zen, professor. it can tell you something, right? It's available for anyone and NOW. Here and now, you know? Seriously. It's not a joke. Its true. Look up this man's work. It was mostly pushing him over the edge of the fear of failure. Done. Just spoke with the man yesterday. He said all he was thinking and expecting is shuttered, and he never thought its that simple. Mind is really good in tricking us how difficult this attainment is. Do not give up, friend. I really appreciate you stepped forward here, in the open. But now, time to get cozy with somebody on email. You will be done in no time.

And look up this professor getting free here:

46 years of Zen. Professor gets free. http://completehumanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/professor-i-am-ready-please-take-my.html

You know, if you read, you see he said he contacted his Roshi, and his Roshi told him t stop meditating and find other means. So brave guy at his 72 looked up and found direct pointing. It's like Zen master slapping you every time you make a wrong move. It took him a little while - 2 weeks with Thassa and then 1 week with me. But the guy is done. I mean can you feel it? It's done. The search stopped - read - he said that in the post. The search is over. What's left? Exploration of new relaxed life, celebration. No more churning inside, unsatisfaction, unfulfillment. It's fundamental peace. Life continues. Mind at peace.