Tibetan understanding of Jhanas - Discussion
Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Andy, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 17/04/21 13:57
Created 3 Anos ago at 17/04/21 13:57
Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 35 Data de Entrada: 01/12/19 Postagens Recentes
I'm currently reading Leigh Brasington's Right Concentration and at one point he makes reference to "the Tibetan understanding of the Jhanas". Does anybody know what he is referring to? I've never seen the Jhanas mentioned in a Tibetan context.
Noah D, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 17/04/21 14:16
Created 3 Anos ago at 17/04/21 14:16
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 1211 Data de Entrada: 01/09/16 Postagens Recentes
Sometimes in Mahayana they are looked down upon as lacking the foundation of great compassion .
also the 9 stages of samatha working towards jhana from Kamalasila is in the Sanskrit but not pali tradition.
also the 9 stages of samatha working towards jhana from Kamalasila is in the Sanskrit but not pali tradition.
Andy, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 17/04/21 14:50
Created 3 Anos ago at 17/04/21 14:50
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 35 Data de Entrada: 01/12/19 Postagens Recentes
Yeah I would agree Hinayana is looked down upon at least somewhat by Mahayana. The Tibetan Vajrayana approach I think has always been more integrative. I've seen Tibetan Buddhist centers, for example, that claim to teach all three vehicles.
Anyways though I'm looking specifically for Tibetan expositions of the Jhanas, though perhaps they refer to them as Dhyana...?
Anyways though I'm looking specifically for Tibetan expositions of the Jhanas, though perhaps they refer to them as Dhyana...?
Zero, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 17/04/21 17:50
Created 3 Anos ago at 17/04/21 17:50
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 68 Data de Entrada: 21/02/18 Postagens Recentes
Yeah the Tibetans don't use the term "Hinayana" disparagingly at all. It's just beginner teachings. Japanese dharma though...
svmonk, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 17/04/21 21:32
Created 3 Anos ago at 17/04/21 21:32
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 401 Data de Entrada: 23/08/14 Postagens Recentes
Hi Andy,
I think the Tibetians call it "shamantha", calm abiding. AFIK, they don't teach the detailed structure of the various jhana levels and such.
I think the Tibetians call it "shamantha", calm abiding. AFIK, they don't teach the detailed structure of the various jhana levels and such.
Noah D, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 17/04/21 23:52
Created 3 Anos ago at 17/04/21 23:52
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 1211 Data de Entrada: 01/09/16 Postagens Recentessvmonk:
Hi Andy, I think the Tibetians call it "shamantha", calm abiding. AFIK, they don't teach the detailed structure of the various jhana levels and such.
Im pretty sure samatha precedes the 1st jhana & that they do acknowledge the existence of jhana but don't encourage its practice.
Noah D, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 17/04/21 23:57
Created 3 Anos ago at 17/04/21 23:57
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 1211 Data de Entrada: 01/09/16 Postagens RecentesAndy:
Yeah I would agree Hinayana is looked down upon at least somewhat by Mahayana. The Tibetan Vajrayana approach I think has always been more integrative. I've seen Tibetan Buddhist centers, for example, that claim to teach all three vehicles. Anyways though I'm looking specifically for Tibetan expositions of the Jhanas, though perhaps they refer to them as Dhyana...?
Derek2, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 18/04/21 08:07
Created 3 Anos ago at 18/04/21 08:05
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 231 Data de Entrada: 21/09/16 Postagens Recentes
Wikipedia says that parts of the Sutta Pitaka (āgamas) were translated into Tibetan. Which parts, and what happened to the bits about jhānas, I do not know. Possibly they had the texts to translate but no contact with a living tradition of jhāna meditation.
svmonk, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 19/04/21 20:06
Created 3 Anos ago at 19/04/21 20:06
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 401 Data de Entrada: 23/08/14 Postagens Recentes
Hi Noah,
Care to say more? I've never heard any Tibetian teacher or read anything along the lines of the well-articulated Theravada teaching.
Care to say more? I've never heard any Tibetian teacher or read anything along the lines of the well-articulated Theravada teaching.
Noah D, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 19/04/21 21:01
Created 3 Anos ago at 19/04/21 21:01
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 1211 Data de Entrada: 01/09/16 Postagens Recentessvmonk
Hi Noah,
Care to say more? I've never heard any Tibetian teacher or read anything along the lines of the well-articulated Theravada teaching.
Hi Noah,
Care to say more? I've never heard any Tibetian teacher or read anything along the lines of the well-articulated Theravada teaching.
Sure thing. Just did some quick googling & it took me to an old DhO thread (lol) which references that Kamalasila's 9 stages lead to the attainment of samatha which = access concentration preceding the 1st jhana - https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/94387. In page 12 of this doc, Culadasa says the same thing - https://dharmatreasure.org/wp-content/uploads/LightOnMeditationHandout.pdf. I also have received this teaching orally from a teacher based in the Indo Tibetan tradition.
That said, they don't talk in a lot of detail about the jhanas because they don't recommend them because they'd rather have someone do something more mahayana-ey, like dzogrim or dzogchen or lam rim after attaining samatha.
Siavash ', modificado 3 Anos atrás at 19/04/21 21:16
Created 3 Anos ago at 19/04/21 21:16
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 1697 Data de Entrada: 05/05/19 Postagens Recentes
Isn't B. Alan Wallace's teachings on jhanas also based on Kamalasila's 9 stages and part of the tibetan tradition?
It seems that he teaches hard jhanas similar to VSM jhanas. I guess somewhat different from Culadasa's interpretation.
It seems that he teaches hard jhanas similar to VSM jhanas. I guess somewhat different from Culadasa's interpretation.
Noah D, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 20/04/21 13:18
Created 3 Anos ago at 20/04/21 13:18
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 1211 Data de Entrada: 01/09/16 Postagens RecentesSiavash '
Isn't B. Alan Wallace's teachings on jhanas also based on Kamalasila's 9 stages and part of the tibetan tradition?
It seems that he teaches hard jhanas similar to VSM jhanas. I guess somewhat different from Culadasa's interpretation.
Isn't B. Alan Wallace's teachings on jhanas also based on Kamalasila's 9 stages and part of the tibetan tradition?
It seems that he teaches hard jhanas similar to VSM jhanas. I guess somewhat different from Culadasa's interpretation.
I don't think Culadasa is negating the fact that in traditional buddhism, jhanas comes after the attainment of samatha. Rather, I think he's saying that in reality/in practice there are useful, progressive samadhi states that clearly resemble the jhanas yet do not require full samatha to enter & maintain them.
Siavash ', modificado 3 Anos atrás at 20/04/21 16:21
Created 3 Anos ago at 20/04/21 16:21
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 1697 Data de Entrada: 05/05/19 Postagens RecentesJohn H, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 22/04/21 00:20
Created 3 Anos ago at 22/04/21 00:20
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 33 Data de Entrada: 17/04/18 Postagens Recentes
I wonder if the Tibetan version of the jhanas is Tummo. That system reliably produces results and can taught without too much trouble although Tummo is dangerous in a way that I think the jhanas are not. With that, I think Tibetan Lamas would likely either be ignorant of it or consider that what they would call jhana is an obsolete method. On a somewhat related note, I was quite surprised when a Zen teacher with a Chinese lineage posted a sutta on the Buddha's birthday that pretty clearly said that enlightenment is nirodha samapatti. I'm pretty sure he didn't know what the sutta was saying and that wasn't his teaching, but somebody in the wayback of Zen clearly did.
Tommy M, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 22/04/21 11:08
Created 3 Anos ago at 22/04/21 11:07
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 116 Data de Entrada: 01/12/20 Postagens RecentesJohn H I wonder if the Tibetan version of the jhanas is Tummo.
Those practices involve radically different mental postures, although they both start with samatha so I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion.
svmonk, modificado 3 Anos atrás at 22/04/21 21:15
Created 3 Anos ago at 22/04/21 21:15
RE: Tibetan understanding of Jhanas
Postagens: 401 Data de Entrada: 23/08/14 Postagens Recentes
Hi John,
Tricycle has an article in the spring issue about the Heart Sutra. It was apparently back translated from Chinese into Sanskirt and due to a mistranslation, came out sounding like a metaphysical treatise, when actually, it is a description of a mediation experience. Nagarjuna called it sarvopalambhopasamah (SVP) in the Mulamadhyamakakarika. Basically what happens is that clinging to perception is weakened to the point where experience disappears though you do not lose consciousness or fall asleep. Not sure but it might be different from nirodha samapatti (NSP), though it is similar. The route to get there is different. With SVP you work using vipassana to release clinging, with NSP you focus awareness.
Tricycle has an article in the spring issue about the Heart Sutra. It was apparently back translated from Chinese into Sanskirt and due to a mistranslation, came out sounding like a metaphysical treatise, when actually, it is a description of a mediation experience. Nagarjuna called it sarvopalambhopasamah (SVP) in the Mulamadhyamakakarika. Basically what happens is that clinging to perception is weakened to the point where experience disappears though you do not lose consciousness or fall asleep. Not sure but it might be different from nirodha samapatti (NSP), though it is similar. The route to get there is different. With SVP you work using vipassana to release clinging, with NSP you focus awareness.