Ok. I am starting a practice log . I am 50 and have been meditating and off for about 10 years nothing serious. About 4 years ago I read MCTB2 and found  this forum.   I am deciding now to use MCTB2 AND Mahasi Sayadow's PRACTICAL INSIGHT MEDITATION as my main text. I have averaged about 1 hour sittings every day. I use breath at abdomen as my anchor.  Wow this is hard . I daydream often in my sitting about mundane things and memories etc. No real I sights yet. But sometimes I feel a little calm equanimity  

Can somebody be doing insight meditation and not even be on the map?

Well, does this seem familiar?  

​​​​​​​https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/1-mind-and-body/

Best wishes to your practice! May it bare fruit! 

Note, relax, re-relax, note, note, note, relax, re-relax, note, note, note (matter of fact arisen experience of course) , note tension in body and relax, re-relax some more in the body, note ... etc ... 

I think the answer to this depends on how one sees the map. Many people argue that the map is universal and everyone, regardless of whether or not they meditate, is on the map. Other people argue that the map doesn't explain much outside of a Mahashi-style retreat. The argument can be made that, even on retreat, map labels are just one arbitrary way of understanding what is going on. 

One of the things that I notice is that the map includes 16 things to know. Knowing (deeply understanding) things like Mind and Body or Arising and Passing Away are important enough on the path of insight that they get their own insight stage. But there is no insight stage called, Knowledge of The Map. There is also no mention of a map in the suttas. I have never heard anyone claim that they were liberated from suffering by understanding a map. 

Because people talk about it so much, it's easy to think that it is very important to know where you are on the map. In my experience, it is most important to know what is going on, moment by moment, and know how what is going on goes on. Anything that distracts you from these investigations is probably best set aside. 

Unfortunately  I don't identify with that stage. There is only rarely a perceptual shift. I spend way to much time still stuck in discursive  thought memory etc. There have been a few little moments where things got interesting. I was meditating with a headache  . Trying to be mindfull of the sensation.  All of a sudden  , it didn't feel like "I" had a headache.  It was more like  there was a headache . Or the headache  had the headache.       this message  was supposed  ro answere SHAGROLS QUESTION

Thanks Papa

Sometimes we need time in our day to just sit and think and remember, so no big deal, it's part of being a normal healthy person.

If the discursive thinking and memories feel too claustrophobic and out of control, this is where noting practice is very good. The trick is to come up with "categories of thought" that you can note. This will be different stuff for different people. For example, if someone is worried about their practice they will probably be spending a lot of time thinking about it:

mapping thoughts
comparing thoughts
judging practice thoughts
planning thoughts
wanting to make more progress thoughts
wanting to quit thoughts
"this is wasting time" thoughts

etc.

So when you are sitting there, note the category of thoughts that come up for YOU. When you note the category of thoughts, you aren't embedded in the thought, you are being mindful of thought itself. 

Pretty soon you realize that all of this discursive thinking is just something the mind does --- but that doesn't mean it destroys mindfulness -- not if you can note the category of thought that is occuring in the present moment.

And sure, everyone gets lost in thought at times, that's normal and to be expected. When you snap out of the trance --- and when that happens isn't up to you, it's up to our mindfulness instinct --- when you snap out of it, just note the category of thought that had you in a trance. And guess what: now you are mindful and in the present moment again.

Honestly, it is completely fine that in 20 minutes of sitting you get lost 400 times, just as long as you come back 401 times. It's fine even if you get lost for 19 minutes and come back once. That "coming back to the present moment" is what gets trained in meditation and everyone starts off falling into trances A LOT. No big deal. It's just like someone working on balancing in the physical body: you balance on a narrow beam and fall off a lot, but if you keep getting up on the beam your balance quickly improves because your body wants to learn how to balance and likes to learn how to balance. Falling off is kinda fun too. So have the same attitude about trances and mindfulness, it's a game to play!

Noting really is a great approach. Anything that seems like bad practice actually becomes FUEL for practice. You can't go wrong!

Even if we're really negative:
don't want to practice thought
don't like practicing thought
I am stupid thought
this is dumb thought
i don't know what I'm doing thought
I suck at meditation thought
... after a while, you learn to develop a sense of humor about this --- look at how one part of my brain thinks it's a loser that can't do meditation, meanwhile another part of my brain is successfully doing noting meditation practice!

When you do this kind of noting practice you slowly learn that thoughts are just thoughts, just wisps of words in the mind, and your mindfulness instinct really isn't affected by thoughts ---- unless you choose to believe your thoughts! But you are not your thoughts, you are the awareness of your thoughts. You are awareness, not the contents of your awareness.

And remember that practice slowly develops our mindfulness instinct. Even though it feels like nothing is happening, you are actually making progress... The mindfulness instinct isn't under our direct control, it's sort of like developing a sense of balance in the body --- it just learns over time. We can't "think" or "force" ourself to balance, it's just an instinct we slowly train over time and the body itself learns to balance. Just like the mind itself slowly learns mindfulness itself. We can't "think" or "force" ourself to be mindful -- that kind of attitude just ends in frustration. 

So have fun with it, study your own mind, make up your own notes, and don't worry about thinking -- just worry about noting.

Hope this helps in some way.

Great advise . I always feel inspired by you shagrol. I need to keep a sense of humor. And I am noting the inner "chuckle ' right now...   I am also starting a couple of off the Cushin practices.   Mindfull driving ,on my commute  to and from work. Trying to stay away  from that highway hypnosis.    Also I run a few miles every other day.  I am ditching the headphones and trying to note sensations. Feet hitting the ground or the sound of my own breath even sweat dripping. . I am trying to stay out of that trance you talk about

I am staying consistent on my sits. I do almost 2 hours a day. Time is going by faster than it used to while sitting . It used to be I couldn't wait for it to finish. My mind is still all over the place. It might be 15 minutes in before I do my first note. The label I use is "trance " for long scattered daydreams. This is some difficult stuff so i try to have a sense of humor about it  at the rate I am going, I should reach The AP in about 10 lifetimes. . I hope I am reincarnated  as a smart guy with good concentration  skills

If I could do two hours practice a day I might literally be enlightened. 

Two hours is a lot but comendable. Don't burn yourself out. Slow and steady is good too. Slow and steady teaches us a lot of important things about the journey. Fast and heavy gives us lots of things to deal with. 

​​​​​​​IF I could do slow and steady every day....

My sits are 2 hours. The quality  of the sits are less than great. I daydream often before a catch it and note it. I consider myself a greenhorn. 

Why am I getting creepy feelings,during  meditation and after?. I feel  kind of like I am entering a room I shouldn't be in. However I will just keep going along. Focusing  on breath in the abdomen  and noting when my mind wonders .