So after noting for a couple of days I can see a fuzz. I see a static in the vision, I hear a static in the hears, I feel a static in the body.

I feel, sometimes, the mind checking back to this sense of self. Although sometimes it's not so apparent.
I'm noting at about 1-2 per second.

One thing thats crossed 'my' mind is; choice.

A sensation arises, the mind makes contact, identifies it, grades it's like-ability, then a mental formation comes up which sometimes translates into an action.

My question is; what is making this seemingly choice of whether or not to act out on this mental formation? Is it just another feedback loop which already made the decision? Or is this awareness?

Hi Travis,
If I am understanding your question correctly - take a look here.

You'll find a list of about 12 different translations of the steps of dependent co-arising. Very useful in trying to get a grip on the meanings of some of these terms. I think you will find your answer there.

Making a choice has to do with sankharas (volitional formations). Your choices are based on comparing likes and dislikes and choosing (intentions -> actions) is picking what you think is the best option. If you don't have a good handle on what likes and dislikes are for you in the long-term you may get addicted to choosing short-term choices to relieve aversion with pleasant things as a coping mechanism. If your choices are based on your deep values they'll feel a whole lot better in the long run whether it feels like a self or not making the choice.

Consciousness is the knowing part of your mind. Because everything you do is being watched passively by consciousness it can be a resting place where you can let everything (including emotions) be as they are without manipulation. This also means everything that is happening to consciousness is not a self precisely because it's being watched. This is often called the Greater Self in Advaita Vedanta. Now thoughts can pretend to be consciousness so you don't want to colour your knowing with a "benign watcher", or "cold voyeur". These are just perceptions and thoughts pretending to be consciousness. Awareness is aware of awareness so with Buddhism you can go further.

Read the Bahiya Sutta to gain an understanding on how thoughts are trying to experience what they can't experience and only your consciousness can register. Understand that thoughts are also known to consciousness and because thoughts and perceptions make your amygdala react with likeable or unlikeable concepts. Thoughts feel like a controller but it's the reactivity that pushes one to make a choice one way or another. The thoughts are for evaluation. That evaluation will spur on desire and aversion which motivates action. Look at dependent origination as less linear in time as it's laid out and more like cause and conditions that support each other. In experience they appear to be happening so fast that it's like they are happening at the same time. Understanding time as happenings that go into the past instantaneously will give you a better understanding of supports and causes and effects.

Bahiya Sutta



Look into the five aggregates (see this) and the 4 foundations of mindfulness to see the huge variety of things that could be considered a self and look at it more like causes and conditions. There's no need for self-referencing all the time. Then your choices will look to be influenced by how much or how little your ignorance is of what the results are of your choices rather than a separate self making the decisions. Try to imagine your self existing in the future where there are more technological possibilities and greater understanding. Wouldn't your choices be expanded compared to living in pre-history where knowledge was less and possibilities would seem less?

To go more subtle with the practice notice how intentions also hit the consciousness. Intending to meditate or intending to note is more stuff that doesn't have to be grasped and clung to. Let the attention go where it wants and just note it without labels and watch it pass away naturally. The practice is best when you don't add fixation and don't repress experiences. Just let phenomena (including mental movements) pass away on their own. There is no "you" that has to let go. It let's go on its own if the impulses are not acted upon. So for example when you get lost in thoughts just let it happen and when the mind naturally comes back to the present moment don't do anything and look at thoughts as an experience that just happened in the present moment like anything else. It's almost like a cloud that came and went and consciousness just watched it happen. Notice how daydreaming about possibilities in your future has some element of tension and solidity compared to how things are vibrating in the present moment. When those thought bubble tensions evaporate the space of relief can give you an out on whether to act or not. If anything you'll feel you have more choice.

Kenneth Folk's advice is something I also like to post because this is always about reducing stress because our choices as I said before are highly influenced by feeling tone and perceptions of likes and dislikes:



Good luck in making good choices!

That makes sense. I figured it was something like this.



So usually what I do when the mind gets lost in thought is attempt to bring it back to the experience of mind and body. I try to note more. When one is lost in thought there is no opportunity to note, because one is distracted. Are you suggesting that if the mind gets lost in thought, to let it ride this wave of thoughts and let it return back to the present action of noting on it's own? No condescending tone meant, just a question.

Thanks for the help.

Yes. It's a little counter-intuitive but the brain think's it's a controller and by breaking down cause and effect in your experience to include intentions to pay attention you don't have to identify any part of your experience as a self. To watch intentions to do things and how they feel in the body and to notice when actions are completed if there's any permanent satisfaction (BTW temporary satisfaction is just fine when it's skillful), can help with disenchantment with many choices or actions on impulse that can create regret.

It's basically a Shikantaza practice and you can find good instructions here:

Return to the Source



Here's some advice Daniel gave another poster that I got benefit from that's similar to the above:



I would also look at his advice in another thread:

Looking for help to get to third path

An Eternal Now referenced another bit of practice advice on the bottom of this thread on the sense of self:

Awareness, no-self, True-self , really confused!!!

Now the problem with Zen practice is that they say "Do Nothing" but they want you to notice enormous detail. So there's still effort in seeing the detail but the emphasis on doing nothing is to be careful not to search for detail with your attention as if it was a "self" searching. Also by doing nothing what arises is fabrications/habits/karma etc and by seeing it arise and pass away you can notice the cause and effect in greater and greater detail (because concentration is improving with consistent mindfulness). By doing nothing if your mental habits arise and pass away they are likely to weaken and become less of a force in your life. Neurology shows that years of meditation means a shrunken amygdala, increasing hippocampus, and pre-frontal cortex. The addictive part of your brain is okay and you can always enjoy the conventional happiness of dopamine/serotonin/oxytocin but you won't feel as needy about it. The practice creates a pleasure that's different. It's a pleasure of freedom from vice and over the top aversion.

We are trying to avoid being Gollum:



In the end you still get on with your life but you have less and less of a habit of: Perception of object as worth hating or craving -> Craving or aversion arises -> Clinging/ruminating/fixating mentally on why you like or dislike object(s) -> Stress hormones.

Residing in the body you can watch the cause and effect and interrupt the same repetitive stress and add more relief in your life. You only have one life you know of and the less you ruminate about what someone did to you 5 years ago and how you hate it, the more time you have for peace. How I look at the "birth" side of things is more a metaphor for how we attach identity with thought narratives and seeing the habits of them and how impermanent they are you can get disenchanted and stop further conditioning of it. Also making a list of repetitive mental narratives you meet constantly you can be more vigilant and be ready to let go of them as soon as they appear.

You may want to look at the transcendental dependent origination to see a more positive chain link to direct you.

Transcendental Dependent Arising



That should give you a lot to chew on for the next few years. Enjoy!

Yeah I noticed this counter-intuitive nature of thinking. Sounds like Zen practice to me!
I tried a little bit of it this morning and obviously you're not inclined to read/respond but I thought I'd put it out there for others to refer to, if it helps.
What I noticed right off the bat is that I rationalized quickly that if I'm to note every time there is an ending of something, thats a lot of noting, right?! I mean if the three characteristics are true, then I'd be noting every phenomenon (or the ending of every one) throughout my practice because they are all fluxing in and out of experience. I also started to realize that as hard as this seemed to me at first (and a lot like the practice I had already been doing), things changed ever so slightly.


Much like how this other member describes their experience above in the post you recommended I read. As soon as I let go of the desire to 'do' anything, the mind and body felt a lot more relaxed, and reality seemed to be a lot more inclusive.



This was also in the thread you recommended. I thought this was interesting and it struck an especially interesting chord in me. That's all there is right? Mind and body? Sensations? How could one sensation possibly perceive another sensation? Of course, just like for this member, the selfing didn't stop, but it does add some interesting things to ponder about.




Another quote from the same thread. This seems to be 'my' problem. 'I' get anxious, concerned with control and manipulation that the mind cannot relax into any state as to become absorbed in it. Nothing too troubling to worry about, just interesting to note.

I'm getting the feeling that if 'I' can learn to let go of that feeling to control (by means of noting nothingness) I might be able to see this illusion of self a bit more clearly.

Richard, thanks for all the feedback. You've truly given me loads to work on for the next couple of years. We'll see how it all holds up (or, hopefully, doesn't).