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Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena

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Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/22/13 12:59 AM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena Florian 11/22/13 6:32 AM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/22/13 1:17 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena Florian 12/1/13 9:59 AM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 12/3/13 9:46 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/22/13 1:44 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/22/13 1:15 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/22/13 1:45 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/24/13 4:03 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/22/13 11:48 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/27/13 5:41 AM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 11/29/13 10:25 AM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/29/13 2:05 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena sawfoot _ 11/29/13 5:08 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/29/13 5:31 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 12/3/13 9:54 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena This Good Self 11/23/13 6:29 AM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/23/13 4:59 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena Be Free Now 11/23/13 7:14 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/23/13 7:47 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena Be Free Now 11/23/13 8:03 PM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 11/24/13 10:44 AM
RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena triple think 12/3/13 9:58 PM
Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/22/13 12:59 AM
hi again

There seems to be a handful of people who are interested in what I have experienced and how I might describe that or visa versa, and so on.

This group tends to lean towards considering me interesting and beneficial and may at times be overreaching with that however I greatly appreciate the opportunity to attempt to develop such qualities.

I have already set up a thread for that.

There also seems to be a handful of people who are interested in defining and criticizing how I think, act, feel, write, smell, and so on.

This group tends to lean towards considering me threatening and harmful and will have to work much harder before I can really start to provide them the kinds of pain and suffering that they are looking for from me but considering their persistence are not yet satisfied.

This is the thread for trying harder with that.

I see these aims as operating at cross purposes.

If there is no solution for the confusion and chaos this creates for all of us in one thread then I propose at a minimum two threads, one for the one kind of interest and one for the other kind of interest, with the understanding that each activity take place in only one thread.

I think that doing so would vastly improve the effectiveness of both interests.

Do you think we could all accept and agree to this proposal?

I have always wondered why we so commonly expect it useful to work at cross purposes like this.

There must be some reason for it but obviously I am an idiot so this is the place to explain it to me.

Then again it is so prevalent that when absent for a few minutes it can be a religious experience for people lets leave them alone in the other thread where that can soon become a mystical experience.


I honestly do not think anyone here knows me well enough to draw accurate conclusions about who or what or how I am or think or behave or speak. I can prove anytime, anywhere that any such conclusions will not serve you in an effort to pin me down or put me in a box. You will have to use real pins and boxes, that will work.

I can say this in honesty because I know me better than anyone else I have ever met and I can't pin me down on much of anything important by reasoning with, rationalizing about, or preaching at myself.

Ask my family, they know me very well and are nowhere near to having me figured out. I could easily say the same thing about each and every one of them. We've spent 50 years having to deal with each other so if you have that much extra time and you are that motivated… it still won't be satisfying in this way.

So why would any of us, having never succeeded in this effort to pin anyone down on anything in this way make that our first priority when we are learning about someone? I think it is because we haven't considered how ineffective this whole approach to learning about other people is in practice.

If we can tolerate each other for long enough to become more familiar we may have some ideas about how we are somewhat the same or somewhat different we might accomplish that much, if we persist at learning about each other for a long, long time.

I'm willing to admit this about all of you. I don't know you, not at all. I can't define you. I can't even start.

I'm am completely ignorant about who you are.

I admit it to myself and now I admit it to you.

I can see this, and it is closer to an absolute certainty for me than many things.

This is so completely consistent that I can depend on it as a rule.

I find it hard to believe that I am superhuman for figuring this out. It looks obvious enough to me.

There are some more obvious reasons to despise me I'll get the ball rolling with a couple of the ones that I see every day. If you need more ammo I will resupply you at any time, just let me know.

For example.

I read a lot.

Most people all my life have expressed hatred for me for this reason alone so there is no reason to express this as I will consider it a given unless I am assured otherwise.

I know a lot of stuff that comes from reading.

Same hatred, similar reasoning.

Same understanding that most people feel this way on my part.

I honestly don't need this explained repeatedly. This sank in with the daily beatings very early on. The tacit complicity and pervasive complacency of our society demands that I accept this most everywhere. I get that.

I understand that in the context of beating and berating me for these reasons alone it is always helpful to have a variety of additional kinds of invective and abuse to hurl for at me simply to keep it interesting. I understand this and I think I provide an adequate menu of options already.

Ok, get ready to see me rumbled!

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/22/13 6:32 AM as a reply to triple think.
Hi Nathan

From way back when, I remember you having a more ambiguous relationship with your father. At least I read you that way.

What changed, and how?

Just for perspective, my own relationships with my surviving family and in-laws changed, sometimes abruptly and drastically, over the years, so I'm sympathetic about these being subject to change, and I'm really just nosy and curious about the specifics of your story.

I'm not expecting you to get into this unless you want to. This seems to be the better thread to ask than the other one.

PM is fine, too, if that's more appropriate.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/22/13 1:44 PM as a reply to triple think.
In your other thread you said (emphasis mine):
triple think:
As I have tried to narrate my first important meditation experience and the depth of that elsewhere I will not go into that event in any more detail at the moment and simply attempt to work from that same example to explain the insights which that experience and many since have granted along with the hard won knowledge and understanding that I have managed to accumulate in the 35 years since. Initially all I could appreciate were the effects of that first event and I had to return to the meditation and study and work very hard at this for a long time for the insights to accumulate and for knowledge to develop and finally for a very little understanding to take root.

I well appreciate that offering up the full measure of all of this work may at times appear self aggrandizing or arrogant but I think if someone knew how much time and energy these insights, knowledge and understanding required from me they would not be nearly so impressed by any conclusions I have come to and instead would consider my accomplishments quite modest as I do.

What do you think of the notion that humility is pride standing on its head? =).

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/22/13 1:17 PM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:
Hi Nathan

From way back when, I remember you having a more ambiguous relationship with your father. At least I read you that way.

What changed, and how?

Just for perspective, my own relationships with my surviving family and in-laws changed, sometimes abruptly and drastically, over the years, so I'm sympathetic about these being subject to change, and I'm really just nosy and curious about the specifics of your story.

I'm not expecting you to get into this unless you want to. This seems to be the better thread to ask than the other one.

PM is fine, too, if that's more appropriate.

Cheers,
Florian


hi Florian

I'm happy to see you here at DhO but don't feel it is appropriate to see you in this thread, I don't think it suits you. Then again who knows considering how from my point of view we are approaching almost everything backwards. It will be some kind of an upside down swimming pool when we have finished building it. Go figure.

Dad is a retired Baptist Pastor and Theologian while I am nothing of significance in name and a retired blue collar tradesman with many other interests and my thinking tends to conform more to that of a buddhist in form, so simply by contrasting the forms and names there appears to be some significant differences. I wouldn't describe him as ambiguous, that is more suited to my makeup although I don't think self definition or defining anyone else explicitly has ever interested me much at all. Change is a property of everything that is fairly consistently observable to one extent or another I find and I will go so far as to assume you do as well.

all the best
nathan

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/22/13 1:15 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
What do you think of the notion that humility is pride standing on its head? =).
What do you think of the notion that you just can't please some people regardless of what you do or say?

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/22/13 1:45 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
What do you think of the notion that humility is pride standing on its head? =).
What do you think of the notion that you just can't please some people regardless of what you do or say?

I wholeheartedly agree and know that I tend to err too much on the side of trying to please people.

I didn't ask because what you wrote displeased me, though. I was asking you if your being humble is actually a way to mask pride. Don't take this as a way for me to try to get you to act or talk differently. I was asking whether you do in fact think highly of your accomplishments, but that manifests as you saying that you don't think highly of them. Of course the thoughts you would have would be that you don't think highly of them, but I have often noticed in my experience that when I have been humble in the past, I was often just trying to downplay something that I did in fact take pride in. It seems humility only comes up when there is already pride or the potential for pride there - do you see what I mean?

This illustrated well in this joke, for example - just replace "Before you oh Lord, I am nothing" with "When I say that this experience is limited I mean that it is limited to my lifetime of approximately 49 years and 4 months as opposed to the many millions if not many billions of years of work that the Buddha declared was involved in defining his conclusions":

During Shabbat services the Rabbi is overtaken by inspiration, kneels and puts his forehead to the floor and says,
"Before you oh Lord, I am nothing."
The Cantor, seeing this display, is likewise inspired, and he kneels, puts his forehead to the floor, and says, "Before you oh Lord, I am nothing."
The janitor sees all this and is so moved that he, too, goes in the middle of the isle, kneels and puts his forehead to the floor and says, "Before you oh Lord, I am nothing."

The Rabbi nudges the Cantor. "Look who thinks he's nothing!"

This ties in with the Big Problems you brought up here. Pride is one of the causes of hurting ourselves and others. If humility is just masking pride instead of eliminating it, then all it does is perpetuate pride which would thus also perpetuate hurting ourselves and others.

Another way to put it is: what use is humility if there is no pride or potential for pride?

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/24/13 4:03 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Another way to put it is: what use is humility if there is no pride or potential for pride?
I think you are correct about these your given considerations if and when someone feels these are appropriate considerations for someone to make. Apart from that I think that humility for the most part is by far the more meritorious and protective quality in any social context and that pride is by far less commonly of any merit at all in any context. Further I am sure that short of encompassing the mind of another with one's own it is much more difficult to make correct assessments of the presence or absence of these qualities apart from long first person familiarity with another person.

[Later Editorial Addition:
Upon reconsideration you have me, technically, on the nothing statement. Point - Dragon Emu Fire Golem, Claudio. I have considered the aforementioned EPROM and code errors and in light of ongoing malfunctions of the Moon Phoenix Fire Eating, Fire Bathing Earth Dragon Complex, I will have to award you an additional point on the ongoing potential for arising, persisting, and passing of just such, similar and or related malfunctions, at the least, from time to time. Good Half Point to Full Point, at minimum - Dragon Emu Fire Golem, Claudio.

whatever is a symbol laden mythic creature to do? Oh, the It-ity !

Match Claudio Dragon Emu Fire Golem.

bow
Triplethink Moon Phoenix Fire Eating Fire Bathing Earth Dragon ]

[Subsequent Later Addition: An additional consideration has very recently come to mind under suitably appropriate conditions. Would you care to comment on any possible such over estimations or underestimations of various qualities arising in relation to the arising of suitable qualities and conditions which might give rise to smiling in concert with reflections upon death?]

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/22/13 11:48 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Another way to put it is: what use is humility if there is no pride or potential for pride?
I think you are correct about these your given considerations if and when someone feels these are appropriate considerations for someone to make. Apart from that I think that humility for the most part is by far the more meritorious and protective quality in any social context and that pride is by far less commonly of any merit at all in any context. Further I am sure that short of encompassing the mind of another with one's own it is much more difficult to make correct assessments of the presence or absence of these qualities apart from long first person familiarity with another person.
Agreed on all counts.

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/23/13 6:29 AM as a reply to triple think.
When communicating, each person has to make some effort to meet the other where he is. It might be fun to wax lyrical on one's favourite topic, but it's also disrespectful of the other if he doesn't share the same level of knowledge. An invisible wall descends between two people when one of them does this. For example, if I'm teaching a child to play football, I don't launch into a hour-long monologue on advanced tactical manoeuvers and marvel at my own insight; I ask him what he already knows, what he wants to know, and then I match my pace to him. He should not be made to reach too far with his understanding or effort, only as far as I estimate he will be capable of reaching. A good student will push himself to succeed but only if the teacher makes himself properly available. A self-absorbed teacher won't be any help to anyone. I've often criticized Daniel for his poor written communication skills. A single sentence can be 2 miles long, with a good 30 commas interspersed. And is it wordy??? Well yeh... I've never seen anything like it in my life! It's a real waste because he has so much to offer, but he doesn't pay nearly enough attention to his willing audience. It's all feels very 'inwards' focussed. It feels like you and he don't reach out to the reader when you communicate.

Triplethink, you said some unusual stuff on the other thread, which was begging to be challenged, so I did. I'm not interested in dredging up again, so go ahead with your threads. Quite a few have called my posts trolling, but I'm just trying to keep it real and useful. No hate here.

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/23/13 4:59 PM as a reply to This Good Self.
C C C:
When communicating, each person has to make some effort to meet the other where he is. It might be fun to wax lyrical on one's favourite topic, but it's also disrespectful of the other if he doesn't share the same level of knowledge. An invisible wall descends between two people when one of them does this. For example, if I'm teaching a child to play football, I don't launch into a hour-long monologue on advanced tactical manoeuvers and marvel at my own insight; I ask him what he already knows, what he wants to know, and then I match my pace to him. He should not be made to reach too far with his understanding or effort, only as far as I estimate he will be capable of reaching. A good student will push himself to succeed but only if the teacher makes himself properly available. A self-absorbed teacher won't be any help to anyone. I've often criticized Daniel for his poor written communication skills. A single sentence can be 2 miles long, with a good 30 commas interspersed. And is it wordy??? Well yeh... I've never seen anything like it in my life! It's a real waste because he has so much to offer, but he doesn't pay nearly enough attention to his willing audience. It's all feels very 'inwards' focussed. It feels like you and he don't reach out to the reader when you communicate.

Triplethink, you said some unusual stuff on the other thread, which was begging to be challenged, so I did. I'm not interested in dredging up again, so go ahead with your threads. Quite a few have called my posts trolling, but I'm just trying to keep it real and useful. No hate here.
hi CCC

I think I remember you from way back when I was here before maybe. I think I've read stuff you wrote here and while I was away, so I think I have a rough idea of where you are coming from but I will just have to get more familiar as I go along. I guess all you can do with me is the same thing. What else can we do?

So here's an idea, because sometimes I have been awake for three days and my writing starts to have no commas or periods and the words just keep following on, I mean I don't talk like that, I don't say how is it going period did you do that think that you were talking about period it just keeps going and going sometimes with a breath in between so just let me know when it is not working for you and... I will go, oh yeah, periods and comas more often good idea!

Thanks.

What I've been suggesting, and it doesn't matter how people are feeling, because people feel different all the time, is three threads.

I also feel different all the time. I do. I expect to continue to do so.

So, if you feel pleasant, happy and agreeable, never mind how I feel.

Just post it to triplethink.

Then, later, whenever, however, when I feel pleasant, happy, agreeable, etc...

I will, if it looks like a good idea, post a response, if you want.

If you feel crappy, crabby, crummy, ugly, nasty and or anything unpleasant.

Post it to TripleSlam.

Then, later, when I do not give a crap, or feel like crap anyways, I will look at it, and it won't matter what you wrote.

If I can think of something to respond with.

I'll write that. And so on.

Or. If you are feeling steady, and even, and peaceful and like, no problem, no biggie.

Then, if you want to get all in my head, or super intellectual, or very analytical or very clear on something.

Post it to tripleops.

And we will use everything we have got to figure it all out. All very professional and technical and smarty pants style.

Ok?

Then we will at least know what to expect.

Want to see some run on sentences with big words and big ideas that nobody gets?

www.zizekstudies.org

see you later CCC

nathan

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/23/13 7:14 PM as a reply to This Good Self.
"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."

— SN 56.9

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/23/13 7:47 PM as a reply to Be Free Now.
Be Free Now:
"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."

— SN 56.9
All Good Points

So, mr. Buddha sir, I guess my real question is, "Could an Arahant still say Fuck?" And also then, "Under what circumstances could or would or might or not or not or not, an Arahant still say Fuck?"

Or another way to put it, given the talk about the goal is like this, "There is your Arahant, walking down the trail, he's had his morning coffee and he is on the way to the outhouse and having a lovely summer morning day and he has his roll of TP and he is almost up to the outhouse and the grass feels warm and moist under his bare feet in the morning and...

sploot

he steps in a big old mound of black wet bear shit.

So, would he, could he, might he, may he then say Fuck! Or would that be impossible to occur and why and so on."

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/23/13 8:03 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
Be Free Now:
"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."

— SN 56.9
All Good Points

So, mr. Buddha sir, I guess my real question is, "Could an Arahant still say Fuck?" And also then, "Under what circumstances could or would or might or not or not or not, an Arahant still say Fuck?"

Or another way to put it, given the talk about the goal is like this, "There is your Arahant, walking down the trail, he's had his morning coffee and he is on the way to the outhouse and having a lovely summer morning day and he has his roll of TP and he is almost up to the outhouse and the grass feels warm and moist under his bare feet in the morning and...

sploot

he steps in a big old mound of black wet bear shit.

So, would he, could he, might he, may he then say Fuck! Or would that be impossible to occur and why and so on."


That is a good question. I don't know the answer. My understanding of the Dhamma is very shallow at best. But I would delight in speculation.

From what I have read about arahants and their ways of being, an arahant who has no previous conditioning remaining who has not a trace of aversion to any physical sensation would not be angry about stepping in poop. Therefore, he would not say "fuck!" as a reaction to the seeming event. But I have read of arahants who still have previous conditioning left, so if this type of arahant steps in poop, and his karma dictates he react by saying "fuck!", he might.

What do you think?

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/24/13 10:44 AM as a reply to Be Free Now.
Be Free Now:
That is a good question. I don't know the answer. My understanding of the Dhamma is very shallow at best. But I would delight in speculation.

From what I have read about arahants and their ways of being, an arahant who has no previous conditioning remaining who has not a trace of aversion to any physical sensation would not be angry about stepping in poop. Therefore, he would not say "fuck!" as a reaction to the seeming event. But I have read of arahants who still have previous conditioning left, so if this type of arahant steps in poop, and his karma dictates he react by saying "fuck!", he might.

What do you think?


[Later Editorial Addition: We are working away at a variable pace on this and similar issues at tripleops and elsewhere, stay toonish for updates.]


Yeah, persistent question too.

Obviously it would be better for everyone to get this sorted, just so we could get our head around saints with 20 Rolls Royce's and stuff or Roshi's who can't keep their hands to themselves and so on.

So, my bet, and it gets put that way by more than a few people, you know, a, well, just bet on red and let the roulette wheel spin, kind of a way.

And that is not, not at all, satisfying.

(I mean who's to say that isn't what I have been doing already for 200 lifetimes, over and over, and freaking over again...)

We have tried it out a lot of ways. We have just cut that part out of the criteria for the 1234's and gone with that, but the reports are missing some things on the other end, and they are sort of the same things but also not the same as the parts we cut out and there is some detail missing here, like that particle that they are searching for at CERN. So this is a fairly refined problem in some way too and not, just letting things slide, in the end.

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
12/3/13 9:58 PM as a reply to triple think.
Tripleslam Post 15 11/27/13

We have seen the truth, I'm not perfect, I cannot demand that I be so, I can only do the work.

So here is a slam back from me, at the imperfections, in me, perhaps in all of us, please forgive me, but I can no longer keep my silence. I felt the words had steeped deep in me long enough and were ready and that I should share them with any who would or could hear. No load off of my heart, but perhaps, a hair's breadth further out from the forefront of my every waking mind. So, do not suffer needlessly, and thank you.

[ At her request and with her permission, I am including my long time correspondent and good friend's name in full.

Constance Casey. ]


hello Constance,


I hope with all my heart that you are well and constant in your wellness.

I have written what is below and I fully intend next to post it at DhO.
I have returned there to resume the dialog I entered into before.

I thought that you, of all people, who Fully awakened me to This Truth,
should see this first.
--------------
and now I post it here.


It seems impossible to me, imponderable to me, that a company which is entirely concerned with truth should fabricate a falsehood. Yet I see this every day and sadly more so all the time.

I have written already before, and I am doing so again now, about the poisoning of this world, our world, by Ideologically Totalitarian Impositions, Impositions against the Truth, impositions against us all.

By this I mean any complete or allegedly complete body of knowledge and understanding which thereby becomes a view, a view to which people cling, yet not only cling to but cling to and then impose upon others.

If the view and its views are fully and absolutely true, then no matter what happens, those who see in such ways are on the winning side, the winning side of any dispute over the truth, and even if they perish in it, they have triumphed in upholding this complete and utter truth.

However if the view, and or its views in whole or in part is false, then they should be and must be questioned and this falseness brought to light so that they and all will see the truth, the complete and absolute truth, for what it is.

So in this light I will say this. This is not about the Noble Sangha who even now, as surely as ever in the past, do see the truth. This will be about the ordained sangha, which today as in days past are simply people who aspire to the truth. Some may be also of the Noble sort, but today, as in the past, some will not, even should they wish otherwise, yet be so.

So we have, as everywhere in the world, a mix of kinds and types of people. In the world, men and women together. Yet in the ordained sangha, in many ways and in many places, yet thankfully not in all places, only men.

Here I stop, and I wonder at this and this is why.

The sangha and the Sangha are the possessors of the truth. They are people surely as well, but in name and in form they are seen to hold only to the truth, no matter who or how they are people.

Now I agree, the sangha should be, or become, and the Sangha is, possessor of the truth, and may in the perfection of themselves in the truth Be or Become the possessors of the Truth in Full.

Here I stop again, and pause even longer in wonder, and here is why.

I pause in wonder because so very men in robes have gathered together to bar the door to this truth and hold out from it those who also would long to see and dwell in that truth.

Now I do not care nor shall I ever care who ordained these men or who ordained those men before them in days past. But sometime, somewhere, these men and their words have turned their backs on truth in its fullness.

Here is why.

You cannot say, in full, to fully half of the people now alive, "come and see the truth, come and see it in full, gaze upon it in wonder but nonetheless, you cannot dwell in this truth." To my mind, to any mind that can think, this cannot be so.

This is why. This is why, despite the fact, despite the truth, that before all things, I, who too see the truth, no less so, cannot dwell with you.

I am a man, but I am also homo sapiens and in this I am no different from a woman in anything but the mere appearance of the very same form. In every other way, that need truthfully be considered, we are the very same.

Those who know the truth, know that the truth conforms, in just these ways, and we cannot deny this.

This is why I see a falsehood, where I see I must see only truth.

So it is impossible, it is imponderable to me that anyone should open the door to truth and then say to any other the same, "I can see and dwell in this truth and you can see it also but you cannot dwell in it together with us here."

This cannot be, this cannot stand. And so I and others will leave you be in your solitudes and isolations, in and from this truth, if in no other truth besides this.

I cannot see therefore, that you see the truth fully, if you do not see it completely. So I bid you well and goodbye.

I see the truth, as others do, perhaps not fully and completely but no less clearly than those who have proven and demonstrate the same, and we will take the truth elsewhere, and we will plant fresh new Buddha fields, and in those fields we will all of us; man, woman and child, all of us shall dwell together in this truth. We will be as one in it and as a great company we shall stand together in this truth.

We shall grow, we shall flourish, in the truth, and even as you may wander without it and beg, in it we shall flourish and be nourished by it. Turn away now I say to you who deny this, turn away from falsehoods, and join with us who cannot deny the truth or our need of it in fullness and completeness and we will welcome you into our company, in the truth and in the fullness and in the completeness of it, and in it we shall all be nourished and never go without.

Now I have said my peace and we may all return to the blessed silence and do so in our truth.

________

Constance

I have thought about your suffering at isolation as a person and as a woman in this and in so many ways, (you know too how we all share in it, all of us, with any eyes and ears and hearts and minds of any note at all) for many long days and nights and this the best of my metta, my metta for you my sister and all of our sisters and brothers, for all of our sakes.

I wish you well

metta
nathan
___________________________________
p.s.
Some hope yet exists, even if nothing can be done for the world, in another kind of solitude and apart from it. It should be added here as well but not probably not by me. So...

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. Then in the evening, Ven. Ananda, coming out of seclusion, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "On one occasion, when the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans in a Sakyan town named Nagaraka, there — face-to-face with the Blessed One — I heard this, face-to-face I learned this: 'I now remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness.' Did I hear that correctly, learn it correctly, attend to it correctly, remember it correctly?"

[The Buddha:] "Yes, Ananda, you heard that correctly, learned it correctly, attended to it correctly, remembered it correctly. Now, as well as before, I remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness. Just as this palace of Migara's mother is empty of elephants, cattle, & mares, empty of gold & silver, empty of assemblies of women & men, and there is only this non-emptiness — the singleness based on the community of monks; even so, Ananda, a monk — not attending to the perception[1] of village, not attending to the perception of human being — attends to the singleness based on the perception of wilderness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of wilderness.

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure."


Excerpted from the opening passages of:
Emptiness

MN 121 Cula-suññata Sutta: The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 1997

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/27/13 5:41 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Tripleops Post 16 11/27/13
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
What do you think of the notion that humility is pride standing on its head? =).
This is such a great question and my previous responses so poor, I thought I would give it another go, if you don't mind Claudiu.

I did have this way of seeing/hearing/knowing before, but I thought this deserved to be better said, well said even.

remains
triplethink
___________________________________________

After some time of careful consideration. I will order my reflections on this question another way.

Not because the truth, the knowledge or the understanding has not been long apparent.

But because it required careful consideration of the words to express the following.

In respect of this and similar questions.

I offer you this.

THE HEARING

Yes.

There are voices.

Yes.

When percipient and consciously cognizant.

I can hear sounds by means of the ear or the mind clearly and directly.

Among other kinds and types of sounds I do hear voices.

Wherever, whenever, however, internally or externally these may arise.

I pay attention.

I hear the sounds.

I have ears, and the means to perceive the arising of voices with the mind alone.

Voices in whatever tones and timbres, by whatever given avenue, arise, persist and disappear.

And in the absence of a much louder, or a much nearer sound of any kind or type.

These voices are heard, or perceived by me.

As such they are heard and perceived and variously known:

The accuser.

The prosecutor.

The defender.

The judge.

The jury.

The crowd.
________________

I hear these voices, wherever, whenever, this hearing or that hearing does arise.

I do not claim these voices. I do not call them Mine.

Or me, or I, or you, or our, or we, or they or them.

I do not assign the sign for self.

These are the voices.

I hear.

By the conventions, I use these signs, to point, to this body, to this mind, to this percipience.

By these same conventions, I use these signs, to point, to any other such body, such mind as might there by form or faculty or facility be assigned these conventions of speech.

So that what is indicated, might be otherwise, elsewhere, by any other such body or such mind, so to be known.

And in this way I hear, I attend, and I listen to these sounds. By this way, I assign, when necessary these signs, according to whatever convention of a collective, it is commonly done.

If you follow this.

So then, I hear, I listen, I attend and I heed the meanings.

There is another kind of sound. Another kind of voice

Another voice I wait upon with still greater attention.

With every perceivable and conceivable means.

The voice of the executioner.

Who will grant this mind and body freedom from all sounds and voices.

For the time will come.

And this voice will sound.

"It is time."

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/29/13 10:25 AM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
Tripleops Post 16 11/27/13
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
What do you think of the notion that humility is pride standing on its head? =).
This is such a great question and my previous responses so poor, I thought I would give it another go, if you don't mind Claudiu.

I did have this way of seeing/hearing/knowing before, but I thought this deserved to be better said, well said even.

Sure, I was quite surprised to see your edit! I guess I get a match point now, yay.

Unfortunately I have to here admit that I've read what you have written below and though I think I understand what you are saying, it seems I don't quite fully, as I am not sure how it relates to my question at all... care to enlighten me? (GET IT)

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/29/13 2:05 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
triple think:
Tripleops Post 16 11/27/13
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
What do you think of the notion that humility is pride standing on its head? =).
This is such a great question and my previous responses so poor, I thought I would give it another go, if you don't mind Claudiu.

I did have this way of seeing/hearing/knowing before, but I thought this deserved to be better said, well said even.

Sure, I was quite surprised to see your edit! I guess I get a match point now, yay.

Unfortunately I have to here admit that I've read what you have written below and though I think I understand what you are saying, it seems I don't quite fully, as I am not sure how it relates to my question at all... care to enlighten me? (GET IT)
Sure, ol Bud hi
Golemz makez good company whiz draginz
Like the gooder book sez
in the hearing, only the heard,
so, matches, Golem


up all knight... voices, (whatever, wherever - a poem about the darker characters in the play)... ooooooooooooooh bean (go joe beans in the soup, hi morning, broken) up all knight. cc re: tripleplay - 2post thread, addz accepted,,,
3T - out

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/29/13 5:08 PM as a reply to triple think.
Triple Think, I have to ask. Has somebody unleashed a horde of monkeys into your house and they have managed to get access to your computer keyboard?


RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
11/29/13 5:31 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
sawfoot _:
Triple Think, I have to ask. Has somebody unleashed a horde of monkeys into your house and they have managed to get access to your computer keyboard?
yup. seems so, the full collection, Billy's c/works to follow, in the monkey speak, pin it up top to calm putter, gittin' no less sleep

matchyerself? old saw? watch out, this timbre's fallin'...
have 1 wit yerself
bear a mind
never 2 engage in combat o' wit, wit an unarmed man...

bee well
-3bird

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
12/1/13 9:59 AM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
I'm happy to see you here at DhO but don't feel it is appropriate to see you in this thread, I don't think it suits you.


Yes, I thought I noticed this splinter hanging from your eyelashes, brother. Not too sure, can't see it too clearly, all these beams around here...

Think of it as asubha practice.

Then again who knows considering how from my point of view we are approaching almost everything backwards. It will be some kind of an upside down swimming pool when we have finished building it. Go figure.


Oh yes! Catching light in a basket by shining the sun into it and quickly slapping on a lid to bring it into a windowless house so it will become illuminated.

Thanks for your reply. It was illuminating.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
12/3/13 9:46 PM as a reply to Florian.
triplethink

I'm happy to see you here at DhO but don't feel it is appropriate to see you in this thread, I don't think it suits you.


Florian Weps

Yes, I thought I noticed this splinter hanging from your eyelashes, brother. Not too sure, can't see it too clearly, all these beams around here...

Think of it as asubha practice.


triplethink

Yeah, did you ever have that sensation (most typically around the top of the skull) like your head is a pincushion for a quiver of arrows. It usually feels a bit electrical as well. I am mainly just managing a stress of some kind a bit deeper than usual when it comes up, anyhow, plenty of sensations out there that would qualify. For me, happiness is not the key thing, keeping the causality/conditionality loops to a minimum is what it is all about on this end.



triplethink

Then again who knows considering how from my point of view we are approaching almost everything backwards. It will be some kind of an upside down swimming pool when we have finished building it. Go figure.

Florian Weps

Oh yes! Catching light in a basket by shining the sun into it and quickly slapping on a lid to bring it into a windowless house so it will become illuminated.

Thanks for your reply. It was illuminating.

Cheers,
Florian


Triplethink

It IS very illuminating in the deep dark of night! Especially on the inside of the 'Soul Cages'. Thanks for the good vibrations man! Got to stay out of here now, I promised everyone a week off from my stuff. Just couldn't find much else that I could do this week so 4 points to everyone for their self restraint and -4 points to me for touching base at Camp Concentration again on weekdays. Ok, gotta get out of the Genie Pool for a while. Off to hide in the steamy mist of the Asubha sauna room.

'pooof'
-triplethink

RE: Tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena
Answer
12/3/13 9:54 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
triple think:
Tripleops Post 16 11/27/13
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
What do you think of the notion that humility is pride standing on its head? =).
This is such a great question and my previous responses so poor, I thought I would give it another go, if you don't mind Claudiu.

I did have this way of seeing/hearing/knowing before, but I thought this deserved to be better said, well said even.

Sure, I was quite surprised to see your edit! I guess I get a match point now, yay.

Unfortunately I have to here admit that I've read what you have written below and though I think I understand what you are saying, it seems I don't quite fully, as I am not sure how it relates to my question at all... care to enlighten me? (GET IT)


Sorry if I missed your GET IT. I wrote that stuff that I titled THE HEARING about Insight-like noting the 'characterization' of the hearing of words that enter the mind either by the eye, as when written, spoken aloud or arising within the mind that have taken on these kinds of roles; accusative, prosecutorial, defensive, judgemental, judicial, executive, spectator-like, etc..

- Moon Phoenix Fire Eating Fire Bathing Earth Dragon