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tripleops - methodology triple think 12/8/13 2:21 AM
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tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/8/13 2:21 AM
________________________________________________________________
the below index and Rant posted to all active triplethink threads as of the above posted date:

Triplethink:
- for the moment, here is a supplementary index to triplethink threads throughout the DhO.
This list will be amended to the first post of any and all active triplethink initiated threads.

threads about triplethink

triplethunk: ask triplethink

tripleops - methodology

tripleplay

tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena

triplethink initiated threads

? = Atman ><?> Zoo Station<? = .Camp Concentration =>


KAMMA SURFER SUTTA - How to work to 0 - Outflow and Inflow

Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS => VOID STATION => the Deathless

Universal Scalar Bubble Nesting

SIT Tank - Tank Time - Tank Talk - Tank Tips

DOB - Dhamma Oceanic Bestiary

See Also:

Karmic view of war

______________________________________________________________________________________

A note about the ever slower-ness of computers and computer networks


It is a shame, but computers just get dumber. I could see it coming as the stuff got rolling but I have to admit I was disappointed at first.

I don't know if anyone else is old enough to remember this, but there was a time when transistors were "new" and we used tubes to do what transistors do now.

Anyways I was already into electronics (in grade 5, age 10) when the first silicon chip became available ( the 555 timer chip ).

I don't remember what I paid for it at radio shack but I had a bag full and I well understand what this technology is and is not.

I remember holding it in my hand at the time, kid that I was, bag full of marvel comics in the other hand ( circa. 1973 ) and I could "see it", see it all, all of this, that IS, right now. The 52 inch plasma screen that I am watching a re-run of an old SNL
Christmas Special on right now, the Mac Book Pro, the digital audio playing "George Winston's - December", the remote controls, the whole ninety-nine yards. I could see way back then, in an instant, what digital tech was/is capable of, and also I could just as easily see what it was/is not capable of. The net, the tech, all of it, right down to the laser temperature meter, all OBVIOUS.

It has it's uses, many uses, but it is not capable of bringing any human being even a hairs width closer to AWAKENING TO THEIR OWN NATURE.

Just saying, it does nothing for that. Not a thing.

AWAKENING
IS
A RETURN TO YOUR SENSES
AND
A RETURN TO SENSIBILITY

I highly recommend it, almost urge people to do it, but I won't ever push or insist or compel anyone to do or think or feel or imagine ANYTHING.

Right now I have state of the art computers. I have a direct Fibre Optic Line into the backbone of the Net.

My Computer has NEVER BEEN SLOWER.

Take note of this, it is worth knowing.

OK, RANT COMPLETED resume normal life...........

- triplethink

_______________________________________________________________________
tripleops - methodology 12/5/13 1:06 PM

I think so far we are making good progress with the methodology thread.

There appears to be a strong shorthand code emerging for me which approaches an appropriate calculus.

My pet projects, the moral compass and the celestial gyroscope are still in alpha testing, happy to see some interest brewing.

The tardis and the spectral timelines will take... much longer.

The doxological work in tripleplay is already always pleasant and comfortable.

Much thx to U and ALL.

..?/ _ _ _ , .

________ - - -
updated - tripleops - methodology 1.5
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
tripleops - methodology 1.0
11/22/13 8:45 AM


People have asked me more than a few good questions that have to do with my conclusions. I think to better understand why and how my responses can often appear unconventional or controversial, particularly in the context of DhO, I will have to focus quite a lot on the methodology I have adopted. This will be a thread for that where I hope to explain, expand, discuss, compare and contrast my approach to study, meditation methodology, the observations and assignments I have made and given, and on that basis any insights, knowledge and understanding thereby derived.

As I have tried to narrate my first important meditation experience and the depth of that elsewhere I will not go into that event in any more detail at the moment and simply attempt to work from that same example to explain the insights which that experience and many since have granted along with the hard won knowledge and understanding that I have managed to accumulate in the 35 years since. Initially all I could appreciate were the effects of that first event and I had to return to the meditation and study and work very hard at this for a long time for the insights to accumulate and for knowledge to develop and finally for a very little understanding to take root.

I well appreciate that offering up the full measure of all of this work may at times appear self aggrandizing or arrogant but I think if someone knew how much time and energy these insights, knowledge and understanding required from me they would not be nearly so impressed by any conclusions I have come to and instead would consider my accomplishments quite modest as I do.

That said I think any conclusions I have formed and am willing to share are quite solid as the work involved in arriving at anything conclusive was very extensive if not exhaustive so even if these are very challenging, even for the very accomplished, that these should be given all due consideration and taken very seriously if any of that work is to serve as a benefit for others. I am entirely open to learned, experienced and accomplished critique of the same as that will benefit everyone including me.

So to begin, I think an important reference text for better understanding my experience and so on is the account of Sariputta's experience and the related insight into the four Jhanas, the Formless Realms, and Cessation. I would emphasize that I am not comparing myself to Sariputta but rather referring to his experience.

It is useful to know that most any English translations of Sutta Discourses longer than say 200 words are either somewhat or heavily redacted. A more complete English translation can often be found in print, a version of any Sutta that is not redacted and complete can typically only be found in the Pali from one or more sources.

Here I mean redacted in the sense of simplified and clarified and not heavily edited for the purposes of concealment. I think generally more recent translations to English have been more than adequate for my purposes the majority of the time. Sometimes minor or obscure points and more rarely major points do require significant research, study and contemplation.

One reason for significant redaction in translation is that the original texts phrases are repeated very often in slightly modified forms in order to emphasize or expand upon a given important point. This is particularly important for memorization of a Sutta Discourse in Magadhi Prakrit or since in Pali, Sanskrit or other languages, This is very effective in practice when undertaken by chanting such a text alone or as a group as was originally always done and is still done in various places today.

Here are the relevant passages copied from one of the relevant discourses in the translation available online at ATI:

MN 111 PTS: M iii 25 Anupada Sutta: One After Another
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 2007

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, Sariputta entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. Whatever qualities there are in the second jhana — internal assurance, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
"Furthermore, with the fading of rapture, Sariputta — remaining in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure — entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' Whatever qualities there are in the third jhana — equanimity-pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He understood, He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
"Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness;[3] singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
 "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html



Other vitally important insights, knowledge and understanding have been extensively considered by many people elsewhere and so where I am in agreement with someone who has taken a clear, well supported and well argued position on those points I will refer to their work because I consider it at least equivalent if not superior to anything I might have to say. I will focus more on a different and perhaps even more narrow subset of insight, knowledge and understanding which I do not consider novel or original but typically neglected, overlooked, ignored, denigrated and so on. I may often express in some way, and I will explain and expand on why, that it is a mistake to neglect these points and I will attempt to show how and why this is so.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/22/13 11:03 AM as a reply to triple think.
I will begin, where many people have requested I begin, with my conclusions. In so far as these are based on my very limited personal experience of the totality of the work represented in the Pali Canon these are also very limited.

I have relied upon that Canon as my primary textual source material.

I will also begin with those limited conclusions which are most bound up with my limited personal experience.

When I say that this experience is limited I mean that it is limited to my lifetime of approximately 49 years and 4 months as opposed to the many millions if not many billions of years of work that the Buddha declared was involved in defining his conclusions. So this should serve as a suitable example for comparing and contrasting when I use the phrase limited lifetime of experience.

I will then provide more general conclusions which are based on both meditation and study so far.


As a preliminary to that I will speak to some of the conclusions which have been requested if not demanded.

Some people have asked me if I am a member of the Ariya-Sangha, which is defined well here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html

I do not think it is the more likely conclusion but it may be possible that I am nonetheless. I have what I think are excellent reasons for being this hesitant to draw any conclusion about this and I think it is far more preferable to be exceedingly cautious in drawing any such conclusions. Others hold different views but so far none of these have swayed me from this position on these matters.

First of all I am not formally a member of any Sangha nor have I ever been so in this lifetime.

Secondly I think the criteria provided in the Pali Canon for any such determination are accurate, demonstrably verifiable and entirely logical as well as practically of great importance in every respect. I have not seen any sound argument for modifying any of those criteria.

So right away it should be obvious that I do not hold the view that it would be wise to alter any of these criteria without carefully and meticulously presenting the necessary evidence and documentation, premises, reasoning, logic, and anything else necessary to justify doing so. Even if all of that work is done in a meticulous, thorough, exhaustive and compelling manner I do not think this will directly or significantly alter any more orthodox Theravada Buddhist views on the same issues in anything but a very slight and very long term way.

So my view is that this and anything like this would be a massive undertaking and by no means even adequately begun by anyone.

I do not mean this as a criticism of Daniel's, Kenneth's or anyone else's work. I would not even categorize anyone else's work in this way. At the same time it should already be obvious that I cannot share the views of those who do make such modifications based on any privately held reasoning on many important issues even if I support much of the work they have publicly done nonetheless. I do not think that holding different or even opposing views should be employed as a source, cause or condition for of any ill will or malice or any such harmful or unwholesome thought, speech or action.

It should now be obvious that this places me in a very delicate position in this and most any venue anything like this one and that may also be instructive as to why I can be so tentative and hesitant about making declarative statements and generously drawing conclusions which could easily appear to serve as a solid point of reference which will be reliably serviceable for anyone else.

I hope that even if my work is of no service that the high standards I aspire to in these and other respects might serve as some sort of an example of anything that might be considered even somewhat scientific or rational or reasonable or any of the other terms employed to imply that such work is meticulous, thorough, exhaustive and in any sense reliable.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/22/13 11:10 AM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
Some people have asked me if I am a member of the Ariya-Sangha, which is defined well here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html

I do not think it is the more likely conclusion but it may be possible that I am nonetheless. I have what I think are excellent reasons for being this hesitant to draw any conclusion about this and I think it is far more preferable to be exceedingly cautious in drawing any such conclusions.

Could you go into what some of these excellent reasons are?

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/22/13 12:42 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Could you go into what some of these excellent reasons are?

Most of the time I have been. There hasn't been nearly as much interest in anything else of more importance. Also I think this is of more fundamental importance to understand, about me, before any other statements I make can be correctly understood and interpreted.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/22/13 4:18 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:

Some people have asked me if I am a member of the Ariya-Sangha, which is defined well here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html

I do not think it is the more likely conclusion but it may be possible that I am nonetheless. I have what I think are excellent reasons for being this hesitant to draw any conclusion about this and I think it is far more preferable to be exceedingly cautious in drawing any such conclusions. Others hold different views but so far none of these have swayed me from this position on these matters.


The Canon lays out severe consequences for making an incorrect claim (edit: with the intent to deceive), but doesn't the evidence suggest that you're at least a stream-enterer? I'm especially interested in the sutta descriptions of nibbana and the phenomenology of the various grades of cessation/fruition. If Mahasi-style cessation isn't a taste of the deathless as described in the suttas, then what phenomenon are the suttas describing with this language?

We're in a situation where certain quite compelling criteria for ariya-puggala-ship in the suttas and commentary are met by modern practitioners, among them:
-access to what seems to be cessation
-access to what seems to be nirodha-samapatti / "touching enlightenment with the body"
-access to variants of the 4th jhana at 3rd path that would seem to correspond to the Suddhavasa planes
-breaking the first three fetters at the first experience of fruition as described in the suttas
-there being four distinct levels transformation in mental functioning, after which the I/me/mine no longer arises, there's a feeling of doneness, etc. The maps of many traditions seem to include an initial enlightenment experience and then a final completion of the path sometime many years later.

But other criteria, like the total absence of sensual desire from lived experience, aren't met by those modern practitioners. So to maintain a working definition, we either have to reject lived experience common to many practitioners, or reject portions of the sutta definitions. This is a separate issue from making claims to attainments; I agree that making non-speculative claims to attainments ("I've attained X and anyone who says otherwise is wrong") is always unwise.

Making claims to attainments is appropriate to some listeners and not to others. The problem is that it's difficult to be a modern teacher who limits speech to one audience. If a Buddha had come into being now, every one of his discourses would've been on TV and relentlessly compared, preventing certain discourses from reaching audiences for whom they would be inappropriate. There are consequences to making any claim, but if Daniel had kept to himself and not written MCTB, a lot of people, myself included, would probably still be wandering in the DN. I think Daniel's approach is necessary to counter those who would claim that attainments are impossible or nearly so 1) in our degenerate age or 2) for laypeople who don't commit 12+ hours a day to the practice. Laypeople are exposed to both pernicious views on a regular basis.

It's commonly ignored how often mainstream teachers make claims to attainments that are so thinly veiled as to be overt. One example would be Goenka in interviews, and Jay Michaelson in Evolving Dharma, saying they're "a few steps" along the path (paraphrasing), which means they're at 3rd path if you exert the minimum effort to read between the lines.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/22/13 2:58 PM as a reply to triple think.
Hi (Sir?).

I suppose this is the new thread you were referring to for a clean start.

I'm thankful for your participation here. What a wonderful surprise. I'm sorry for the trolls but I'm sure you dont mind.

First, a little background: I'm 22, born and raised in India. Without going into details, I always found ways of merit more natural. Typical Eastern Philosophy with traditional Hindu values. I was never much interested in Idol worship but haven't found any fault with it either. Works for some. After watching my grandparents suffer despite living lives of high merit, there was small a phase where I rebelled against all traditional boundaries and even leaped across some with distinction.

I don't regret any of it because otherwise I wouldn't have known what it's like on the other side of things.

My family and relatives are into Goenka style practice, so that's how I got to do my first "course". It opened me up to a greater possibility in life than hoarding wealth like everyone else I know, and it was just after I graduated before I began to "work".

So here, I can relate to your "Mid life - No crisis" zone even though 22 is a bit young. Now I abide in a simpler state of existence, doing just what needs to be done to fulfill my role in society.

It's been almost 2 years since I seriously began developing skillfulness of observation. Although there have been some interesting occurrences, I cannot say I've found out anything substantial. I've dropped some baggage along the way and I'm happy for most of it.

Ever since I started and the subsequent events, I've been more or less in inertia. I have no motivation or drive to act. Life is like a time lapse of changing seasons with not much else of interest going on. Stuff just happens. It's like letting life do life without much involvement. I want to be involved, but seem to have absolutely no motivation or will.. not even to meditate or seek the truth. I no longer care if this sort of inaction drags me into an unpleasant state of existence. What do I do ? What can I really do ? How do I overcome this resistance and stop giving in to laziness ? What advice can you give me in order to dissolve more layers of delusion ?

Edit: Having a taste of both the East and the West, I can relate to your interest in the distinctive philosophies that have simultaneously evolved the two macro cultures. To me they are just two sides of the same coin. I wouldn't say either is inferior in existence, even though one has to be closer to it's cause. They both have their place in whatever evolution is and create the possibility for very diverse individual lives.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/22/13 8:30 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew Horn:
triple think:

Some people have asked me if I am a member of the Ariya-Sangha, which is defined well here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html

I do not think it is the more likely conclusion but it may be possible that I am nonetheless. I have what I think are excellent reasons for being this hesitant to draw any conclusion about this and I think it is far more preferable to be exceedingly cautious in drawing any such conclusions. Others hold different views but so far none of these have swayed me from this position on these matters.


The Canon lays out severe consequences for making an incorrect claim (edit: with the intent to deceive), but doesn't the evidence suggest that you're at least a stream-enterer?
Some of it suggests one way, some of it suggests the other way. The available evidence in my case is, at the least, ambiguous if not, to be more precise, entirely inconclusive.

More importantly in regards to myself I have no ongoing conscious full confidence such as I would have if I had arrived at such by an appropriate means and under suitable conditions for such confidence. To refer to Katy's quotations and comments in the triplethunks thread the Buddha and his Disciples who expound and explain variously how they come to conclusions do so meticulously and exhaustively when they are supplying the appropriate evidence, premises, arguments and proofs, etc. for the conclusions they draw. They proceed from the foundations up and indicate all of the necessary causes and conditions. They do not provide the specific methodology for even doing so in this case (when they do demonstrate being able to do this) (unless any methodology for such as this was somehow at sometime since doing so lost).

I am uninterested in investing my time in proving that I have accomplished something which I would much rather arrive at a better hope of obviously accomplishing and then perhaps a full confidence of accomplishing by working more broadly and appropriately with more directness towards meeting all of the criteria which is indicated as necessary. Even so I think the criteria for doing so is disputed enough in the available and much more closely related non-canonical literature (regardless of whether or not this is open to such dispute or not) that it would rise to the level of a serious problem for the Sangha (if it was indicated as in any way to be necessary for the Sangha to do such things).

As it stands it would be by far the easier to disprove someones claims given the criteria and any collected evidence to the contrary making it difficult to find anyone who could pass such a test even if they did meet the criteria in fact. Finally If others feel making these assignments is of more importance just as I feel that other work than this is of more importance then they would be better suited to such a task as determining the appropriate methodologies for arriving at any kinds of reliable certainties. Obviously other postions and perspectives than these and or mine are readily available and near at hand.

Matthew Horn:
I'm especially interested in the sutta descriptions of nibbana and the phenomenology of the various grades of cessation/fruition. If Mahasi-style cessation isn't a taste of the deathless as described in the suttas, then what phenomenon are the suttas describing with this language?

I am at the place where I have begun taking up some possibly similar or related concerns in the triplethunk thread. For the time being I suggest you look at where I left off there and in the meantime I will study these suttas carefully and consider your concerns before returning to comment on this. It would be most helpful for both of us if you could explain more precisely and completely your interests and concerns with this specifically.

Matthew Horn:
We're in a situation where certain quite compelling criteria for ariya-puggala-ship in the suttas and commentary are met by modern practitioners,...
Yes and I could be counted among them for various reasons which I have indicated openly to the extent that this was possible within the given conditions since first participating here in the early days of DhO.

That we can not take this up seriously elsewhere is why I was optimistic that we could take up just these concerns more seriously and thoroughly here and why I have been so disappointed that we have not taken it as seriously and openly as I, for one, and likely many others think and feel all the relevant indications indicate these concerns could and might be taken.

To interject another clarification; I am not interested in taking any more expedient course to reach any kinds of conclusions if more meticulous and thorough approaches are readily available and if others prefer and are satisfied by expedience they are no less free to take that course. I for one am not satisfied with any such approach and I think it unlikely that I am the only one who thinks or feels this way although it is entirely possible that I am alone in this, here specifically, at present.

I am not here for the express purposes of creating conflicts or division or friction or any such things and so if my presence becomes destructive or counterproductive in effect it is my hope that I or others will quickly note this and I can speedily make an exit.

Also I think there is a more fundamental institutional aspect with important considerations and consequences in the sense that how any of this is determined bears on the creation of new dogmas, new kinds of authorities and everything else that comes as a result. I think it should be clear to those who carefully investigate that we have not elevated any of the standards for doing any of this in an open manner thus far but that there is significant evidence that we have rather degraded the standards. That should be a more of a broad and pressing concern for all involved and I think it should be considered more carefully if this proves to be true. I think it should at the least be carefully researched and evaluated.

With this in mind I would like to clarify and underscore that I am not here with the intention to criticize people or create controversy even if these are some of the consequences of my presence and that if it is felt that there would be more benefit in my departure that I am willing to again depart at any time should this prove the preferable course and will maintain the overall peace and the many benefits available for everyone who participates. I don't see why anyone with the interests we share would be adverse to more careful analysis of anything but I can accept that it may be preferable to work alone or privately on many matters. Given the stated aims and purposes such as that of bringing our work as much as is possible "overground", I think doing so would in another way suggest working at cross purposes and that at the least we can bring more clarity to our purposes and methods and so on by knowing when and or why we would or should do not do so.

Matthew Horn:
...among them:
-access to what seems to be cessation
-access to what seems to be nirodha-samapatti / "touching enlightenment with the body"
-access to variants of the 4th jhana at 3rd path that would seem to correspond to the Suddhavasa planes
-breaking the first three fetters at the first experience of fruition as described in the suttas
-there being four distinct levels transformation in mental functioning, after which the I/me/mine no longer arises, there's a feeling of doneness, etc. The maps of many traditions seem to include an initial enlightenment experience and then a final completion of the path sometime many years later.

But other criteria, like the total absence of sensual desire from lived experience, aren't met by those modern practitioners.
Here I would like to point out that neither are they clearly or typically indicating how or why they are cultivating or arranging or otherwise securing what are indicated to be the prerequisite conditions for such as that and that this is also something that at least as reasonably could also be more carefully considered.

Matthew Horn:
So to maintain a working definition, we either have to reject lived experience common to many practitioners, or reject portions of the sutta definitions.
I think I have begun to make at least as reasonable a case to for not drawing such conclusions, for coming to others, or at a minimum proceeding with coming to any conclusions in these and other respects much more cautiously, carefully, thoroughly, unequivocally, conclusively and in any number of ways and senses. I believe it would not be in any way disadvantageous for any or preferably all of us, openly and together to do so, at any time, in any similarly significant contexts, what ever should prove out down the line. There are great advantages to doing so methodically and systematically, however I expect any ways these and similar concerns are taken up openly and respectfully need not be counterproductive for any reasons that we need fear.

Matthew Horn:
This is a separate issue from making claims to attainments; I agree that making non-speculative claims to attainments ("I've attained X and anyone who says otherwise is wrong") is always unwise.

Making claims to attainments is appropriate to some listeners and not to others. The problem is that it's difficult to be a modern teacher who limits speech to one audience. If a Buddha had come into being now, every one of his discourses would've been on TV and relentlessly compared, preventing certain discourses from reaching audiences for whom they would be inappropriate.
I think these statements about the Buddha are entirely speculative, indeterminable and that it is typically is good practice to indicate clearly when we are employing imagination. I do not accept these statements in a declarative form as phrased here. I am also unconvinced by the absence of any references, evidence, argument, etc. about what or why anything should be or need be difficult for a teacher in this context, I can well understand that various concerns may be so for any number of reasons.

Matthew Horn:
There are consequences to making any claim, but if Daniel had kept to himself and not written MCTB, a lot of people, myself included, would probably still be wandering in the DN. I think Daniel's approach is necessary to counter those who would claim that attainments are impossible or nearly so 1) in our degenerate age or 2) for laypeople who don't commit 12+ hours a day to the practice. Laypeople are exposed to both pernicious views on a regular basis.

It's commonly ignored how often mainstream teachers make claims to attainments that are so thinly veiled as to be overt. One example would be Goenka in interviews, and Jay Michaelson in Evolving Dharma, saying they're "a few steps" along the path (paraphrasing), which means they're at 3rd path if you exert the minimum effort to read between the lines.
I agree that Daniel's work has been of considerable and frequently indispensable value for many as has the work of many others which is why I wholeheartedly support this and much similar work. Please also understand that this does not also serve as the same criteria for necessarily endorsing or denouncing how any of it in whole or in part is defined.

I think it would be helpful to describe and consider a comparison here that I am not interested in actually undertaking merely to put some of this into perspective.

Perhaps you or another could present an argument for this. Why would it be acceptable for someone, say Daniel, to use a ready example, to take freely from another persons body of work, lets say the Buddha, accepting some, rejecting some, and compose his work without providing even the methodology or reasoning for doing so or otherwise explaining carefully how this was done, and then expect that he should be entirely shielded from any questioning of any of this. Lets say we were to do this because we value his work so highly that we accept it without any question whatsoever. Lets estimate the value of this work as minimally defined by all of the consequences of this work over his entire lifespan and all of the people this has benefited whenever and however this work was done publicly.

With that as a given, why then do we not afford the Buddha the same respect? It must be because we consider his work, his eighty years of work, some sixty years of it in public, and some 2500 years of consequential results both in that lifetime and since as lesser. I find that somewhat peculiar but I look forward to hearing the reasoning involved as I am already entertained by the thought. Lets say that in conclusion we consider that the larger part of Daniels work is also drawn from the Buddha's work. I find this all highly unusual in the extreme considering the conventions in all of these respects.

So with this in mind I very much look forward to reviewing yours or anyone's reasoning in support of such a proposal.

I foresee for you many long hours of entertainment you will likely enjoy in fashioning just this sort of reasoning.

thank you
nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/22/13 11:34 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:

Perhaps you or another could present an argument for this. Why would it be acceptable for someone, say Daniel, to use a ready example, to take freely from another persons body of work, lets say the Buddha, accepting some, rejecting some, and compose his work without providing even the methodology or reasoning for doing so or otherwise explaining carefully how this was done, and then expect that he should be entirely shielded from any questioning of any of this. Lets say we were to do this because we value his work so highly that we accept it without any question whatsoever. Lets estimate the value of this work as minimally defined by all of the consequences of this work over his entire lifespan and all of the people this has benefited whenever and however this work was done publicly.

With that as a given, why then do we not afford the Buddha the same respect? It must be because we consider his work, his eighty years of work, some sixty years of it in public, and some 2500 years of consequential results both in that lifetime and since as lesser. I find that somewhat peculiar but I look forward to hearing the reasoning involved as I am already entertained by the thought. Lets say that in conclusion we consider that the larger part of Daniels work is also drawn from the Buddha's work. I find this all highly unusual in the extreme considering the conventions in all of these respects.


Is the Pali Canon in the form it comes down to us really "the Buddha's work" in the same way MCTB is "Daniel's work"? Where the correct interpretation of core concepts is unclear, honest and effortful investigation of the Buddha's teaching is a respectful course of action.

Any serious attempt at redefining classical attainments would have to include a step-by-step examination of the causal factors leading to the dependent origination of dukkha, what it means to eradicate craving in that schema, and exactly what dukkha has been cut off from arising in the present life, which MCTB doesn't even begin to do (no offense to Daniel, it isn't the purpose of the book). The absence of such a serious analysis leaves parts of the attainment debate in deadlock. I'm not a strong enough practitioner to attempt that analysis yet, but if you have concentration and time to give it a shot, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. For example, if craving for fine-material existence still arises for you in a way that you directly perceive would lead to further becoming, that would be useful to know.

Are your doubts about your own stream-entry based at least in part on uncertainty about the Buddha's definitions of the fetters of becoming? If that's the case, in a future post I would like to present multiple definitions of the first three fetters in phenomenological terms, some stricter and some more relaxed, so we can try to determine the set of definitions by which you would qualify for stream-entry. The first part of the exercise would involve formulating sets of definitions for each fetter according to differing interpretations of language in the suttas. Each definition would have to carefully describe the set of thoughts, physical sensations, beliefs, views, etc. that arise in a worldling but can no longer arise for a person who has broken the fetter. The second part would involve subjecting our individual experiences to these definitions to see whether they meet the criteria for having broken a particular fetter.

Applying this exercise rigorously to each of the fetters could generate some interesting results.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/23/13 3:24 AM as a reply to Matthew.
Before answering any more questions here I would like to first make clear the structure or order that has so far proved to be necessary for any lucid and in any sense capable or competent ongoing participation on my part here at DhO.

I am putting in place a minimalistic structure to as minimally manage the nature of the interactions I have become involved in here at DhO, primarily because the overall dynamic of this involvement is already growing needlessly complex and otherwise may soon become thereby counterproductive for all concerned.

I have divided the nature of the conversations or discussions that have been sought or emergent into three threads.

The first thread, triplethunk, is now intended primarily to serve those who prefer discussion and conversation which is pleasant, easy and agreeable.

The second thread, Tripleslam, is more specifically for those who prefer discussion and conversation which is unpleasant and difficult.

This thread, tripleops, will be intended for discussion and conversation which, if any, will make every effort to be neutral and balanced in its form, in its nature, in its contents and on the part of everyone who might in these ways become involved.

In these respects no one else's concerns within this thread can properly qualified for concern, consideration and a response without demonstrating equivalent reciprocal qualities. Even though I have responded thus far I have done so because up until now I have not provided my reasoning for this. I am offering my reasoning now.

When it proved necessary I allowed the group to define the necessity for the first two strongly divergent threads. I am defining the necessity now for this one.

When one party to a discussion adopts the role of an inquisitor or an examiner and the other party is compelled compulsively to answer as fully as is possible the inquisitors questions, and when the party under question receives no corresponding consideration or attention regarding their questions, then the context of that discussion is plainly an interrogation.

If anyone wishes to demonstrate or to adopt such posture and attitudes, the correct and now established venue is Tripleslam and anyone should go there to undertake those efforts.

The group or collective including your good self may continue to prevail in defining the dynamics of those other two threads for better or for worse.

In this thread, conversely, I will impose some guidelines and rules and in this thread I will insist that anyone who wishes to participate in this with me will work or play in concert entirely with the established rules or else I will simply ignore any posts and look to see if anything can be done about moving these or removing these altogether. I will explain and expand on this sort of unfortunate business if and when necessary. If I can not receive anything resembling at least half the consideration from people that I am extending to them then perhaps the DhO is still not grown up enough for the likes of someone like me then it well may be that I will simply have to depart and allow however long it may take to observe that some kind of minimal mutual considerations, mutual respect and mature forms of reciprocity are more widely and generally well demonstrated.

In respect of neutrality and balance it will be important to follow some consistent criteria and methodology which I am endeavoring to detail and document no less extensively in this post and reflect overall in this thread.

Preliminary to establishing any credible position, premises, arguments or conclusions, there will need to be;

extensive if not exhaustive attempts to gather the available evidence and that will require extensive investigation.

That investigation must at a minimum also include these three principal components;

Investigation by means of direct experience with which many here are most familiar even if and when the methodologies and techniques typically on display may be particularly limited in many respects.

Investigation by means of study and consideration of the available textual evidence, and a similar thorough Investigation of any demonstrable and verifiable results.

Then the investigation, in every way as thorough of the rationality and reasoning involved in the subject(s) under consideration.

Then premises, positions, and arguments may be taken on that basis.

Finally conclusions, if otherwise thoroughly supported may be presented with any remaining provisions thoroughly documented.

As I have undertaken a short presentation, by popular demand, in reverse, of this methodology, by beginning with some conclusions and provisions, others may do the same if they seek to and ultimately demonstrate in the end that they can or will provide all of the other necessary supports for the credibility of any conclusions in the same or in an even more open, transparent, objective, thorough, extensive or exhaustive manner.

If you are not willing to follow these rules and consider all of these causes and conditions then you are not honestly in a position to thoroughly understand causes, conditions, effects or results sufficiently to form or present conclusions much less form or present any judgements or conclusions which would then possibly serve as credible evidence that you are fit to be someone else's examiner or inquisitor.

That will be the logic and methodology I will work and endeavor to follow here and if you are not interesting in working this way you are OT here and should move your work to the appropriate thread.

As a minimal outline of the work involved in what I have been requested to present and am attempting to arrive at one day becoming competent in fully presenting it would involve carefully supporting and thereby representing any understanding by two means.

One means is at times referred to as a path of Concentration and the other as a path of Insight which can in many ways be misleading labels and divisions when one does not understand all of the often necessary and available methodology and its place in arriving at any firm conclusions by any means which might be considered the results of any extensive or exhaustive process of investigation.

By means of Samatha-Vipassana which includes almost the vital components of both Samatha and Vipassana, I am more likely nearer completing an exhaustive investigation sufficient for any firm conclusions in three ways, by experience, by study and by reasoning.

By means of Satipatthana which also contains vital components of both concentration and insight I am closer to an extensive investigation sufficient for conclusions in these same three ways.

I think in my case any presentation of any direct experience and any available evidence is the weakest part in most cases even if others might think it is a more fascinating part, but in order to take any sound position and introduce appropriate reasoning it will also be minimally necessary to present a great deal of the evidence of the study and supply all of the necessary references and and the logic of any reasoning involved.

Regardless of any positions or arguments or reasoning or conclusions I might thereby ultimately arrive at I am less concerned by far with any of this than I am with arriving at Liberation. With that in mind any fair assessment of my overall progress on the path would require that I must yet undertake considerably more work and conclude that work to make up for any remaining qualitative deficits to arrive at what is any sort of necessary certainty with respect to Liberation. This is again far more important than any quantitative estimates or measures involving any speculation respecting the lengths of time involved.

Why anyone in almost complete ignorance of anyone else would prefer to merely speculate about others and then suggest it is as reasonable to consider as anything at all like any efforts to present methodically, cautiously and precisely these kinds of careful and meticulous work or why this should conversely be considered less relevant appears to have a preference I do not share for what appears to me to be comparatively unproductive if not counter productive efforts.

'''''''''''''''
Now I will attempt to quickly and briefly answer your remaining concerns but if you are not willing to or interested in similarly backing up and in as thoughtfully a manner consider and answer all of my expressed questions directed specifically to you (as yours were, specifically for you) and in consideration of my general concerns then I do not understand why I should be expected to welcome yours or anyone else's concerns here. Beyond this I will expect you to as thoroughly express, at a minimum, your reasoning for pursuing yours or any other agenda in this thread in order to examine whether or not it is minimally compatible with the one I am establishing here and now and as I have thus far. If you can not at a minimum meet these requests then I would request that you move your concerns elsewhere and otherwise I will ignore those concerns and any other similar concerns should these appear in this thread. Such as:
triple think:

Perhaps you or another could present an argument for this. Why would it be acceptable for someone, say Daniel, to use a ready example, to take freely from another persons body of work, lets say the Buddha, accepting some, rejecting some, and compose his work without providing even the methodology or reasoning for doing so or otherwise explaining carefully how this was done, and then expect that he should be entirely shielded from any questioning of any of this. Lets say we were to do this because we value his work so highly that we accept it without any question whatsoever. Lets estimate the value of this work as minimally defined by all of the consequences of this work over his entire lifespan and all of the people this has benefited whenever and however this work was done publicly.

With that as a given, why then do we not afford the Buddha the same respect? It must be because we consider his work, his eighty years of work, some sixty years of it in public, and some 2500 years of consequential results both in that lifetime and since as lesser. I find that somewhat peculiar but I look forward to hearing the reasoning involved as I am already entertained by the thought. Lets say that in conclusion we consider that the larger part of Daniels work is also drawn from the Buddha's work. I find this all highly unusual in the extreme considering the conventions in all of these respects.

Matthew Horn:

"Is the Pali Canon in the form it comes down to us really "the Buddha's work" in the same way MCTB is "Daniel's work"? Where the correct interpretation of core concepts is unclear, honest and effortful investigation of the Buddha's teaching is a respectful course of action.

Any serious attempt at redefining classical attainments would have to include a step-by-step examination of the causal factors leading to the dependent origination of dukkha, what it means to eradicate craving in that schema, and exactly what dukkha has been cut off from arising in the present life, which MCTB doesn't even begin to do (no offense to Daniel, it isn't the purpose of the book). The absence of such a serious analysis leaves parts of the attainment debate in deadlock. I'm not a strong enough practitioner to attempt that analysis yet, but if you have concentration and time to give it a shot, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. For example, if craving for fine-material existence still arises for you in a way that you directly perceive would lead to further becoming, that would be useful to know.

Are your doubts about your own stream-entry based at least in part on uncertainty about the Buddha's definitions of the fetters of becoming? If that's the case, in a future post I would like to present multiple definitions of the first three fetters in phenomenological terms, some stricter and some more relaxed, so we can try to determine the set of definitions by which you would qualify for stream-entry. The first part of the exercise would involve formulating sets of definitions for each fetter according to differing interpretations of language in the suttas. Each definition would have to carefully describe the set of thoughts, physical sensations, beliefs, views, etc. that arise in a worldling but can no longer arise for a person who has broken the fetter. The second part would involve subjecting our individual experiences to these definitions to see whether they meet the criteria for having broken a particular fetter.

Applying this exercise rigorously to each of the fetters could generate some interesting results.
I see these as some of the criteria which could be part of an extensive and exhaustive list but in many respects I feel the more commonly and obviously overlooked or absent criteria are typically also those more obviously fundamental to progress any satisfactory defined developments, perfections and completions - in most of the available ongoing 'case studies' - which at a minimum functionally weakens the quality and strength of any other accomplishments and the qualities which are missing as causes and conditions are typically the same as those which are absent in the described results.

I do not find any indications that any potentially useful or beneficial human qualities and properties need to be destroyed. For example I have nerve damaged tissue which does not register contact, therefore it does not signal suffering, I cannot therefore conclude that this is an indication of that tissues liberation or of a superior state or that it this kind of impairment in any way represents any kind of mastery over suffering or freedom in any significant sense.

All of the available evidence indicates many useful and beneficial qualities and properties could and should be fully nurtured, developed and ultimately perfected. I do not so far find faculties will ultimately be impaired, I incline to conclude any discipline and understanding will result in movement toward mastery in some sense over ones mental and bodily responses and not over ones internal or external sensations or sense objects. Similarly all indications are that Liberation in any sense will not arrive due to exclusion or impairment of faculties or the senses or the sensible in very general respects but by development in the direction of mastery over these faculties.

I would suggest we undertake such an exercise to define and perform any analysis of the full ranges of known criteria for the four or eight kinds of noble beings and all related concerns in another linked thread similarly categorized as "missing reference". I think this would be a useful and beneficial exercise.

Consider too apart from all of this serious endeavor how another example of the simplest and most straightforward causes and conditions for any alleged accomplishments or attainments on my part could by other not so different criteria as easily be referred to in some important respects as accomplished by means of 'dumb' 'luck'.

To simplify my concerns about criteria for attainment of any good results I think it is important to bear in mind how just as when constructing a building how any qualities and conditions which are absent in the finished structure must have been absent in the design and construction as well.

In another sense it is important to consider any criteria for any model and consider for example to what extent that model is based on qualities and conditions we have drawn from any changing and unreliable examples which happen to be at hand now in the world (samsara) or from a consistent and reliable example of the truth (Buddhadhamma).

thank you for your considerations
upekkha
nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/23/13 5:06 AM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
hi Sweet Nothing

you can refer to me as nathan or triplethink or whatever is funnier looking and still recognizable somehow at the moment is good too

I was leaning towards a few hours sleep at the moment but any sort of sweet nothing can't be in spirit incompatible with that aim.

"I suppose this is the new thread you were referring to for a clean start."

I think in this instance it can be in some sense. The main effort here will be to be troll blind and to have a troll eraser button unless I have somehow been widely misunderstood and thereby become a troll for Daniel who's work appears to be in everyway in theory and practice a healing practice and work I by no means disapprove of or am seeking to criticize and rather to in any sense complement or supplement.

"I'm thankful for your participation here. What a wonderful surprise. I'm sorry for the trolls but I'm sure you dont mind."

I discern you to be with my presently sub-mundane powers to be far on the more agreeable side of the senses of these things. I'm hopeful the first thread, triplethunk will eventually be recognized as pleasant and this one as neutral, the tripleslam one is for any trolling or troll food or troll foot massages.

"First, a little background: I'm 22, born and raised in India. Without going into details, I always found ways of merit more natural. Typical Eastern Philosophy with traditional Hindu values."

Me to, traditional Eastern European values; the nice ones, not the naughty ones.

"I was never much interested in Idol worship but haven't found any fault with it either. Works for some."

Those are Hellenistic Greek values, came in with the Alexandrian invasion a century to two after the Buddha. Nothing quite like that before if memory serves. They brought the sculptures that after local adoption and modification were a more local fusion of styles on the Indian sub-continent or else I am remembering this from whackypedia, I expect you would know better if so.

"After watching my grandparents suffer despite living lives of high merit, there was small a phase where I rebelled against all traditional boundaries and even leaped across some with distinction.

I don't regret any of it because otherwise I wouldn't have known what it's like on the other side of things."

My story and my consequences are probably not much different, and if anything far more severe, these extremes can all be instructive for all of us somehow if we do want to understand what is true or false. The genuine merit and virtue qualities tend to stand up tall and weather when everything else that is more easily seen generally falls or fails in one or many ways.

"My family and relatives are into Goenka style practice, so that's how I got to do my first "course". It opened me up to a greater possibility in life than hoarding wealth like everyone else I know, and it was just after I graduated before I began to "work".

So here, I can relate to your "Mid life - No crisis" zone even though 22 is a bit young. Now I abide in a simpler state of existence, doing just what needs to be done to fulfill my role in society."

I don't think there is a too young for this or anything that proves to be consistently of merit when all else changes. I suppose it takes time to see how much of everything else falls apart while virtues can still develop and perfect those qualities providing nourishment even if and when there is nothing else to sustain us.

"It's been almost 2 years since I seriously began developing skillfulness of observation. Although there have been some interesting occurrences, I cannot say I've found out anything substantial. I've dropped some baggage along the way and I'm happy for most of it."

Even with the other qualities and conditions involved in the path, often these can be more trouble for anyone when these develop too fast or too suddenly than if they take longer for someone than these may for more others. Wild stuff can happen and it is good to be prepared in that and in any ways possible equipped beforehand because if one continues to apply ones attentions at some point more rapid developments will occur. On the other hand any attachment to what or how it should be as opposed to is at any point is also a hindrance as we all find.

"Ever since I started and the subsequent events, I've been more or less in inertia. I have no motivation or drive to act. Life is like a time lapse of changing seasons with not much else of interest going on. Stuff just happens. It's like letting life do life without much involvement."

I can have the same qualities and conditions really hard and heavy sometimes, sometimes that is what is on the menu. It's more what we can still beneficially do that serves regardless of what is serving us or being served, whether it is what we are in any sense enduring or prefer to be and are or are not enjoying.

Sometimes I have been totally cornered by what is going on in one way or another, my father has a tactic for getting to the end of it all, its great, "plod on".

"I want to be involved, but seem to have absolutely no motivation or will.. not even to meditate or seek the truth. I no longer care if this sort of inaction drags me into an unpleasant state of existence. What do I do ? What can I really do ? How do I overcome this resistance and stop giving in to laziness ? What advice can you give me in order to dissolve more layers of delusion ?"

This has me remembering a lot of my 20's, those were the times to label me manic-depressive, or bi-polar or any of those fancy ways of avoiding these or any conditions that only professional quality ignorance believes can't be met by us mere mortals.

I remember how I used to go waaaaaaay up and wow, totally touching the sun and the moon as they say running around crazy wildness. And also other years or other months or days or whenever waaaaaaaaaay down in a black black pit. As it went into the rear view mirror of life it made more sense. It couldn't have at the time, and no one else could give me anything sensible to deal with it either. I got so down one time I had it totally worked out why I should end it all. Wrote a way longer manifesto that was more complete and logical and totally made sense to me at the time all about why I should pull the plug because there just was no place at all for me in this world. Black, black, blackness, even at mid-day for a long time.

I was all set to give in to it. Then I had one (and not optimistic) thought. I thought, 'why don't I just act as if it isn't like this, for one month? And then consider this ending it all again. Maybe I will notice a reason to live. So even though I didn't at all feel like doing anything about anything I got slowly more and more active, with anything, just anything to be really busy.

Interesting result. About three weeks later I was busy with whatever it was, can't recall, and I realized, hey, I feel a lot better, huh, never would have expected this, man, this is really worthwhile knowing. Still don't get why no one else knew that or suggested it or why they don't first thing suggest it now to anyone. So this is my suggestion, just get up and run or jump or whatever until you are actually tired out for real. Do it regularly, I mean anything busy active physical if possible, everyday, all the time possible, for a few weeks, anything that anyone would recognize as ordinarily healthy and totally normal, and see what happens.

Think of it the way I did then, 'what have I got to loose?'

my way
could be
your way
until
your way
is
my way
or you find
someone else
who needs to know
and then
your way
could be
their way

thanks for this Sweet Nothing, very cool, I'm going to go get some next to nothing in now for a while.

tripleoptions
nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/23/13 1:46 PM as a reply to triple think.
I wasn't trying to assume the role of inquisitor or examiner and I apologize if I spoke disrespectfully. Where I ask questions about personal experience, it's because phenomenology is the only source of new evidence we have to judge these representations of the Buddha's teaching. The Pali Canon is one representation of the Buddha's teaching, and the commentarial tradition, including MCTB, is another.

I can't produce analysis according to the standards you laid out in your last post because 1) I'm not a strong enough practitioner yet and 2) I can't take the time to do so and still meet my obligation to practice. I'm sincerely grateful for your responses and I'm looking forward to resuming this discussion in the future.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/23/13 1:52 PM as a reply to triple think.
Lets just call you triple think then, although triple awesome is more fitting.

I have only read sections of Daniel's work relating to Dark Night and the Maps and they did provide some comfort in times of extreme discomfort.

Thanks for the sweet, sweet echoes. Frankly, I'm very happy to know what's possible.

At times when I was less asleep, I've seen how powerful virtue is.

I can relate to the experiences you share from your time in the forest. I understand you chose to share at the risk of not being understood and being ridiculed. I like your openess. I'm inspired by your courage and determination.

I had experiences like those, mostly just birds and plants. It was my first silent retreat and I didn't know what to make of it. It's a little frustrating when your mentor does not tell you what you will otherwise try to imagine and give meaning to regardless. I'm glad that these things have come and gone. I was very naive and lacked, still lack the understanding and experience to discern any of it, and was too worried about the moral/social consequences.

With my limited understanding, what got me most is that there was nobody to talk to during and after. I guess what really got me was my inability to see clearly what was happening. I was also unintentionally telepathically broadcasting whatever was going on in my mind, which was clearly being perceived by the mentor then. This, combined with the silence and everything else, put me in an awful situation where I was constantly shuffing between seeing myself from my own perspective and then how an outside observer of my mind would judge the broadcast. At the time, it did not appeal to me that whoever was pure enough to receive must be pure enough to not judge and I'm still reluctant to meet him again ever since the last day of that retreat.

So yes, I plod on when there is need for plodding. A season ago I took interest in gardening. Since then life has been more exciting as I've something to look forward to everyday. I've been cultivating vegetables in a small terrace greenhouse in my free time. I've learnt how even such an seemingly innocent act such as growing vegetables can cause so much unintentional suffering to the less fortunate forms of life.

In my more recent black pit, I knew pulling the plug is not an option because it would only lead to a darker place. So I wished that someone else pull the plug for me. Fortunately it didn't last very long and I'm thankful that I got the support I needed to wait it out.

I'm grateful for your very practial suggestion of tiring the ---- out of the body. In fact, way back in my bird watching days I had joined a Krav Maga training class. A few months later I had to stop because it made my mindset aggressive even in absolutely calm situations, and in my dreams I was pulling elaborate 4-5 move combos that ended with a knee kick to the forehead on all the people with whom I held any subconscious animosity.

I'll follow your advice and exhaust myself everyday. Maybe a few weeks or months later if you're still around here I'll post an update. Regardless, you've played your part well.


Much respect & gratitude.

Akash

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/23/13 11:55 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew Horn:
triple think:

Some people have asked me if I am a member of the Ariya-Sangha, which is defined well here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html

I do not think it is the more likely conclusion but it may be possible that I am nonetheless. I have what I think are excellent reasons for being this hesitant to draw any conclusion about this and I think it is far more preferable to be exceedingly cautious in drawing any such conclusions. Others hold different views but so far none of these have swayed me from this position on these matters.
The Canon lays out severe consequences for making an incorrect claim (edit: with the intent to deceive), but doesn't the evidence suggest that you're at least a stream-enterer? I'm especially interested in the sutta descriptions of nibbana and the phenomenology of the various grades of cessation/fruition. If Mahasi-style cessation isn't a taste of the deathless as described in the suttas, then what phenomenon are the suttas describing with this language?

We're in a situation where certain quite compelling criteria for ariya-puggala-ship in the suttas and commentary are met by modern practitioners, among them:
-access to what seems to be cessation
-access to what seems to be nirodha-samapatti / "touching enlightenment with the body"
-access to variants of the 4th jhana at 3rd path that would seem to correspond to the Suddhavasa planes
-breaking the first three fetters at the first experience of fruition as described in the suttas
-there being four distinct levels transformation in mental functioning, after which the I/me/mine no longer arises, there's a feeling of doneness, etc. The maps of many traditions seem to include an initial enlightenment experience and then a final completion of the path sometime many years later.

But other criteria, like the total absence of sensual desire from lived experience, aren't met by those modern practitioners. So to maintain a working definition, we either have to reject lived experience common to many practitioners, or reject portions of the sutta definitions. This is a separate issue from making claims to attainments; I agree that making non-speculative claims to attainments ("I've attained X and anyone who says otherwise is wrong") is always unwise.

Making claims to attainments is appropriate to some listeners and not to others. The problem is that it's difficult to be a modern teacher who limits speech to one audience. If a Buddha had come into being now, every one of his discourses would've been on TV and relentlessly compared, preventing certain discourses from reaching audiences for whom they would be inappropriate. There are consequences to making any claim, but if Daniel had kept to himself and not written MCTB, a lot of people, myself included, would probably still be wandering in the DN. I think Daniel's approach is necessary to counter those who would claim that attainments are impossible or nearly so 1) in our degenerate age or 2) for laypeople who don't commit 12+ hours a day to the practice. Laypeople are exposed to both pernicious views on a regular basis.

It's commonly ignored how often mainstream teachers make claims to attainments that are so thinly veiled as to be overt. One example would be Goenka in interviews, and Jay Michaelson in Evolving Dharma, saying they're "a few steps" along the path (paraphrasing), which means they're at 3rd path if you exert the minimum effort to read between the lines.


hi again Matthew

If you look over the triplethunk thread, I think there is a good chance we have a way of figuring out the difference between the '1234 noble beings' and the 'Buddhist Saint Noble Beings' which we could boil down to the 'Saint' part of that, if all of the rest of it is the same already, which, I am willing to provisionally accept for now.

If you can follow the logic of, how 'IT' solved that problem, IT being a 01234 person - Saint, then that is all we really need to concern ourselves with to convert a '4 noble being' into a '10 fetter free' 'Buddhist Saint Arahant'.

So, to move the investigation along, I'm going to add this text which defines 9 criteria for a 'Noble 4':

AN 9.7 PTS: A iv 369 Sutava Sutta: To Sutavan

translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 1997

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Rajagaha, on Vulture Peak Mountain. Then Sutavan the wanderer went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One:

"One day recently when I was staying right here in Rajagaha, at Giribbaja, I heard it in the Blessed One's presence, learned it in the Blessed One's presence:
'Sutavan, an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these five principles.

It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life.

It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given.

It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse. It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to tell a conscious lie.

It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to consume stored-up sensual things as he did before, when he was a householder.'

Now, did I hear this rightly from the Blessed One? Did I learn it rightly, attend to it rightly, understand it rightly?"

"Yes, Sutavan, you heard it rightly, learned it rightly, attended to it rightly, & understood it rightly. Both before & now I say to you that an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these nine principles.

"[1] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life.
[2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given.
[3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse.
[4] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to tell a conscious lie.
[5] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to consume stored-up sensual things as he did before, when he was a householder.
"[6] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on desire.
[7] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on aversion.
[8] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on fear.
[9] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on delusion.

"Both before and now I say to you that an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these nine principles."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.007.than.html

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/24/13 12:09 AM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew Horn:
I wasn't trying to assume the role of inquisitor or examiner and I apologize if I spoke disrespectfully. Where I ask questions about personal experience, it's because phenomenology is the only source of new evidence we have to judge these representations of the Buddha's teaching. The Pali Canon is one representation of the Buddha's teaching, and the commentarial tradition, including MCTB, is another.

I can't produce analysis according to the standards you laid out in your last post because 1) I'm not a strong enough practitioner yet and 2) I can't take the time to do so and still meet my obligation to practice. I'm sincerely grateful for your responses and I'm looking forward to resuming this discussion in the future.
hi Matthew
I understand, and I wasn't attempting to take on the role of a prosecutor or an accuser, like it probably looked like I was either, only pointing out the dynamics of this stuff did involve portraying and projecting all of that. Can't hurt if we can see that it is not personal, unless we still take it personally anyways, and that is delusional, right? If we accept that taking it personally is delusional, then we are all cool and there is simply the mechanics of delusion right?

You may not actually be seeing that live and in impersonal yet so, I sincerely, honestly apologize.

Sorry about that. We are both cool, if you can forgive me for all of that.

I would disagree though that personal experience is all we have however because we have so much more, but it will become clear just what we have and do not have, so whatever work you have done, and still need to do, is not so different from this stuff that this it is still working at either. I have dealt with the part where I was ignorant about that there is no subject, no I, no permanent self, but there is more work to do for 'it' to set it totally free, totally 'unbind' 'it' from delusion.

nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/24/13 6:07 PM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
hi again Sweet Nothing

Sweet Nothing:
Lets just call you triple think then, although triple awesome is more fitting.
I'm going by 'It' or '01234 + malfunction(s)' just now but thanks again for the awesome thoughts.
Sweet Nothing:
...sweet, sweet echoes...
I had experiences like those, mostly just birds and plants. It was my first silent retreat and I didn't know what to make of it. It's a little frustrating when your mentor does not tell you what you will otherwise try to imagine and give meaning to regardless. I'm glad that these things have come and gone. I was very naive and lacked, still lack the understanding and experience to discern any of it, and was too worried about the moral/social consequences.

With my limited understanding, what got me most is that there was nobody to talk to during and after. I guess what really got me was my inability to see clearly what was happening. I was also unintentionally telepathically broadcasting whatever was going on in my mind, which was clearly being perceived by the mentor then. This, combined with the silence and everything else, put me in an awful situation where I was constantly shuffling between seeing myself from my own perspective and then how an outside observer of my mind would judge the broadcast. At the time, it did not appear to me that whoever was pure enough to receive must be pure enough to not judge and I'm still reluctant to meet him again ever since the last day of that retreat.
Right, yeah, I know these feelings also.
It's kind of a trade off isn't it? The main thing when you are somewhere where people do this kind of work is the silence, that is important for everybody to do these kinds of work. So that is usually the rule, right?

I have had that same feeling of being watched too, by my betters. Kind of a 'Holy Creepy' feeling, right?

I realized it probably wasn't anything they were doing but still, it kind of kept me from indulging in any feelings or thoughts that I would be ashamed of having on display. I had the impression it was likely misperceptions and misconceptions most impressed upon me one time when I was watching a documentary on western buddhist monastics. At the end there was this long shot of an abbot I know which was shot from the floor angle. It looked like he was glaring down on me. Like I was being a bad bad ant or something. Very creepy, but I know him to be a very nice, funny guy without any thoughts of harm for anyone or anything. So it was kind of funny too, that feeling, from a taped broadcast.

Anyways, who's to say that purified and expansive minds can't see right through stuff anytime they glance that way either, right? The Buddha had things to say about a sense of shame being helpful. I think this is an excellent clue whenever we feel or perceive this quality. If we respect it, this feeling, the internally felt or sensed 'perceived quality', then we build up the 'conscience'.

I see the conscience, wherever and whatever it is inside of us that is signalling that 'feeling or perception' of some kind of 'moral or ethical failing, failure or shortcoming' as vital for the path. If we build up that conscience and develop that 'moral compass' then we can rely on that to signal us when something that is being sensed or considered is 'harmful and or unwholesome' or 'beneficial and or wholesome'.

This seems to be at least one vital part of the 'missing link' between the 'secular enlightenment idea' or 'technical approach to enlightenment idea' and the 'becoming a buddhist saint idea'.

Not only this, but when we perceive this quality, this is a very, very subtle kind of sensation right? The perceptions of which, are what we are developing, right?

[So it all fits for me. (Ooops, program error = bad output.) That sensor, when it also works properly, also fits into a fully functional 'It Machine'. Man, writing like that is not going to be easy to relate to. Never mind all of that, I'll save all of that 'fixed code' for when we have it finished for people who are building the 'perfectly free robots of tomorrow'. Still mostly only an inside (of any 'it') joke for now.]

Back to 'our' 'conversation'...
Sweet Nothing:
So yes, I plod on when there is need for plodding. A season ago I took interest in gardening. Since then life has been more exciting as I've something to look forward to everyday. I've been cultivating vegetables in a small terrace greenhouse in my free time. I've learnt how even such an seemingly innocent act such as growing vegetables can cause so much unintentional suffering to the less fortunate forms of life.

In my more recent black pit, I knew pulling the plug is not an option because it would only lead to a darker place. So I wished that someone else pull the plug for me. Fortunately it didn't last very long and I'm thankful that I got the support I needed to wait it out.

I'm grateful for your very practical suggestion of tiring the ---- out of the body. In fact, way back in my bird watching days I had joined a Krav Maga training class. A few months later I had to stop because it made my mindset aggressive even in absolutely calm situations, and in my dreams I was pulling elaborate 4-5 move combos that ended with a knee kick to the forehead on all the people with whom I held any subconscious animosity.

I'll follow your advice and exhaust myself everyday. Maybe a few weeks or months later if you're still around here I'll post an update. Regardless, you've played your part well.

Much respect & gratitude.

Akash
Great, glad you understood what I wrote, communicating is my weakest link for sure.
Yeah, the stuff with bugs is tough, even walking, even sitting, that is a lot of mindfulness, and even more walking, especially these days. Oh well, at least there are highways to walk the edges of, that should make it easier.
Still, not easy, but then again, this couldn't have been easier in a jungle, way back when.

I don't think I had to exhaust myself entirely, just keep active a lot and keep at it until the feelings changed and then keep that up enough afterwards, although exhaustion is great for sleeping very well. That same abbot I mentioned, he said, "Let's all go for a walk", one day. So I thought, 'cool, a nice mindful slow walk.'
Nope, he was walking like an olympic walker. Very fast. We were almost running after him. I was almost winded at some points! Kind of funny really. But I could see his wisdom with that. Not sure about the bugs, maybe they see him coming and move? Or he can see every bug, or maybe his feet don't quite touch the ground? I might investigate meticulously at the next available opportunity.

Anyhow, thanks again, see you later
nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/24/13 11:31 AM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew Horn:

Any serious attempt at redefining classical attainments would have to include a step-by-step examination of the causal factors leading to the dependent origination of dukkha, what it means to eradicate craving in that schema, and exactly what dukkha has been cut off from arising in the present life, which MCTB doesn't even begin to do (no offense to Daniel, it isn't the purpose of the book). The absence of such a serious analysis leaves parts of the attainment debate in deadlock. I'm not a strong enough practitioner to attempt that analysis yet, but if you have concentration and time to give it a shot, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. For example, if craving for fine-material existence still arises for you in a way that you directly perceive would lead to further becoming, that would be useful to know.

Are your doubts about your own stream-entry based at least in part on uncertainty about the Buddha's definitions of the fetters of becoming? If that's the case, in a future post I would like to present multiple definitions of the first three fetters in phenomenological terms, some stricter and some more relaxed, so we can try to determine the set of definitions by which you would qualify for stream-entry. The first part of the exercise would involve formulating sets of definitions for each fetter according to differing interpretations of language in the suttas. Each definition would have to carefully describe the set of thoughts, physical sensations, beliefs, views, etc. that arise in a worldling but can no longer arise for a person who has broken the fetter. The second part would involve subjecting our individual experiences to these definitions to see whether they meet the criteria for having broken a particular fetter.

Applying this exercise rigorously to each of the fetters could generate some interesting results.
hi again Matthew

After further Consideration, Yes. I would encourage you to undertake this here or in another thread, it appears it would be most wise to attempt to more precisely, more accurately, more completely or comprehensively determine and more explicitly denote and demonstrate more specifically this...

"...in a future post I would like to present multiple definitions of the first three fetters in phenomenological terms, some stricter and some more relaxed, so we can try to determine the set of definitions by which you would qualify for stream-entry. The first part of the exercise would involve formulating sets of definitions for each fetter according to differing interpretations of language in the suttas. Each definition would have to carefully describe the set of thoughts, physical sensations, beliefs, views, etc. that arise in a worldling but can no longer arise for a person who has broken the fetter."

...and at this point in time... in my case... and possibly in yours or any in others who may be willing to participate... for my part...

"The second part would involve subjecting our individual experiences to these definitions to see whether they meet the criteria for having broken a particular fetter."

...I would be willing to cooperate here or elsewhere.

thank you for your considerations, concerns and kind attentions
nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/24/13 1:45 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:


After further Consideration, Yes. I would encourage you to undertake this here or in another thread, it appears it would be most wise to attempt to more precisely, more accurately, more completely or comprehensively determine and more explicitly denote and demonstrate more specifically this...

"...in a future post I would like to present multiple definitions of the first three fetters in phenomenological terms, some stricter and some more relaxed, so we can try to determine the set of definitions by which you would qualify for stream-entry. The first part of the exercise would involve formulating sets of definitions for each fetter according to differing interpretations of language in the suttas. Each definition would have to carefully describe the set of thoughts, physical sensations, beliefs, views, etc. that arise in a worldling but can no longer arise for a person who has broken the fetter."

...and at this point in time... in my case... and possibly in yours or any in others who may be willing to participate... for my part...

"The second part would involve subjecting our individual experiences to these definitions to see whether they meet the criteria for having broken a particular fetter."



I second this idea and will willingly participate when Matthew gets the ball rolling.

Nick

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/24/13 5:19 PM as a reply to triple think.
Hmmm, yeah, I've been pulled towards investigating this as a central practice lately actually. Awesome thread(s). Thanks, Nathan and all.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/24/13 6:03 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
I second this idea and will willingly participate when Matthew gets the ball rolling.

Nick
Pleasant appreciation in and of your willingness to participate.

Great to hear from you Nick.
Welcome . Jake ..

*yours,
remains to be seen

(*yours = It = I, not you Nick or your It ; } - nathan)

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/25/13 9:16 AM as a reply to triple think.
RE: Nathan's Case

To generalize or to summarize what has been stated by or about triplethink so far we have established some knowns.

Are you Ignorant?

Provisionally, Yes.

Given only what is apparent and in truth directly investigable, made knowable, now obvious and understandable or not so in relation to…

...all of the available knowns, and known unknowns, knowable and unknowable, all together aggregated and correlated thus far by human beings…

how could I, indeed anyone, not so conclude, indeed, ever encompass all of this in any presently or even conceivably present and available human lifetime, such as this is or may at present be known and considered?

Are you delusional?

Provisionally, Yes.

Given the preceding how could I not so conclude that in any respect in which I am ignorant in any important or relevant respects, that I could not be, or potentially so be?

Are you Enlightened?

Again, provisionally somewhat, yes.

In respect of the Big Problem

I have isolated the primary or fundamental problem, personally and collectively, given the previous provisions.

It is discerned to be the presence of or absence of, in whole or in part,

any true or untrue or any accurate or inaccurate exertion of effort towards

any impositions or extractions of any and all

False Ideological Totalization.

Any such Ideological Totalization which is

A composition of Names and Forms

Obtained and Assembled together (gathered and bound up together with)

either in whole or in part

on the Basis of Ignorance and Delusion

or alternatively

Based upon Direct Knowledge and Understanding

in Conformity with the Truth,

simply and only as this is demonstrably and verifiably, consistently so.

Therefore

Personally

In relation to the development, completion and consequent impositions or extractions of any such Ideological Totality

with respect to any perceivable or conceivable self.

It appears that I have nearly exhausted it, the ignorance and delusion, with respect to my self or any and all conceptions of a self, through direct knowledge.

Knowing directly in fact this truth...

…that no such perceivable or conceivable essence is or was ever possibly knowable to begin with,
such as I might ever, in truth, directly perceive or conceive to know,
and thereby very nearly any and all ongoing vitality of such a perception or conception.

However, in regards to any and all impositions or extractions of

Exhaustively Truth Conforming Ideological Totalization

regarding all perceptions and conceptions

and any

remaining forms of any and all contrary perception or conception

and with regards to any contrary impositions or extractions of

False or Misleading Idealogical Totalization

a 'condition before completion',
(to quote a logos from the I Ching)

persists.

(Therefore also does dukkha persist.)


I do not know (perceive and cognize) such a 'completion'
(to quote a related sign also from the I Ching)

or any accompanying or subsequent impositions or extractions of

by means of such a completion.


And just so, and by a contrary form of Ideological Totalization which

excludes the Self exhaustively and entirely

in any known or knowable form internally or externally,

in fundamental, primary, vital,

necessary respects,

there is significant indications with respect to

nearing completion.

Yes.


As to the big problem

collectively.

what hope is there of a solution to such as this?

In our hope for the hopeless we are

to quote former archbishop Desmond Tutu

"the Prisoners of Hope."

http://nothing-new-under-the-sun.blogspot.ca/2011/07/prisoners-of-hope.html


This much, so far as it is correct,

and correctly or well said.

Is now collectively known and disclosed.

-triplethink

Ice Balloons: Exploring the Role of Questioning in Inquiry
http://www.exploratorium.edu/ifi/activities/iceballoons/iceballoons_fulltext.html

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/25/13 3:28 PM as a reply to triple think.
Hi again, Nathan.

Where I'm from it's considered disrespectful to address an elder by name, but I think we're cool.

I hope you're in ease and relatively good health. I didn't want to reply because I felt you've got your hands full writing code for the 'perfectly free robots of to-morrow.' (with wording like that, I reckon what your other links might be like). I haven't wrapped my head around the fancy terminology that floats around the neo-buddhist waves, mainly because I'm too lazy and a little orthodox for this stuff.

It's kind of a trade off isn't it? The main thing when you are somewhere where people do this kind of work is the silence, that is important for everybody to do these kinds of work. So that is usually the rule, right?

I have had that same feeling of being watched too, by my betters. Kind of a 'Holy Creepy' feeling, right?


I agree. Even if I were given some explanation, my mind would grab onto that and then race "legally" without any brakes. The maturity shown by these people is truly remarkable.

I realized it probably wasn't anything they were doing but still, it kind of kept me from indulging in any feelings or thoughts that I would be ashamed of having on display. I had the impression it was likely misperceptions and misconceptions most impressed upon me one time when I was watching a documentary on western buddhist monastics. At the end there was this long shot of an abbot I know which was shot from the floor angle. It looked like he was glaring down on me. Like I was being a bad bad ant or something. Very creepy, but I know him to be a very nice, funny guy without any thoughts of harm for anyone or anything. So it was kind of funny too, that feeling, from a taped broadcast.


Phew. I thought it was just me imagining these things. When I was new and had a slightly new age tinge, I had similar experiences. I was watching taped discourses from over 20 years ago and sometimes the pauses felt much longer than they could be, as if there was some real recognition and two way communication. Now when I think of it again, definitely funny stuff.
During one of those discourses I flipped a switch or something and the space in which the body is experienced was flooded with cool vibratory whirly twirly sensations. After a while all I could think was "How am I going to sleep like this?".

Anyways, who's to say that purified and expansive minds can't see right through stuff anytime they glance that way either, right? The Buddha had things to say about a sense of shame being helpful. I think this is an excellent clue whenever we feel or perceive this quality. If we respect it, this feeling, the internally felt or sensed 'perceived quality', then we build up the 'conscience'.

I see the conscience, wherever and whatever it is inside of us that is signalling that 'feeling or perception' of some kind of 'moral or ethical failing, failure or shortcoming' as vital for the path. If we build up that conscience and develop that 'moral compass' then we can rely on that to signal us when something that is being sensed or considered is 'harmful and or unwholesome' or 'beneficial and or wholesome'.


Again, thanks for this. This is one of those places one has to especially careful about. One of those places most vulnerable to the forces of delusion, no ? At times, the idea that 'this whole moral compass thing is for lesser minds' is so appealing. Just one small leak and pooof. Some pills are hard to swallow... and some acts are tough to follow.


This seems to be at least one vital part of the 'missing link' between the 'secular enlightenment idea' or 'technical approach to enlightenment idea' and the 'becoming a buddhist saint idea'.


This is part of why I'm glad to see you around. You say what needs to be said, like it needs to be said.
Personally, I'm content by just reducing my stock of unwholesomeness and mental impressions. I think its the right thing to do and have faith that if the work is not completed here, it will resume where I am formed again. After all, how can a blind man choose which color is his favorite ?


Not only this, but when we perceive this quality, this is a very, very subtle kind of sensation right? The perceptions of which, are what we are developing, right?


Right..
[So it all fits for me. (Ooops, program error = bad output.) That sensor, when it also works properly, also fits into a fully functional 'It Machine'. Man, writing like that is not going to be easy to relate to. Never mind all of that, I'll save all of that 'fixed code' for when we have it finished for people who are building the 'perfectly free robots of tomorrow'. Still mostly only an inside (of any 'it') joke for now.]


I will just ignore this for now. So science fiction was right all along. Robots are gonna take over !
Maybe they already have and I'm sleeping in some dream simulator like the matrix worrying about what's already happened.. but then what does that make you ? Gosh ..


Great, glad you understood what I wrote, communicating is my weakest link for sure.
Yeah, the stuff with bugs is tough, even walking, even sitting, that is a lot of mindfulness, and even more walking, especially these days. Oh well, at least there are highways to walk the edges of, that should make it easier.
Still, not easy, but then again, this couldn't have been easier in a jungle, way back when.


So being a vegetarian is not nearly as compassionate as I assumed. Not just bugs, also rodents and caterpillars but mostly bugs. Way more than usually assumed. At some time, I was disgusted by the compulsion for ingesting food. I have come across information that some have been able to sustain just by breath alone, but they were rare and far off in between. It's cool now and I even cook sometimes.


I don't think I had to exhaust myself entirely, just keep active a lot and keep at it until the feelings changed and then keep that up enough afterwards, although exhaustion is great for sleeping very well. That same abbot I mentioned, he said, "Let's all go for a walk", one day. So I thought, 'cool, a nice mindful slow walk.'
Nope, he was walking like an olympic walker. Very fast. We were almost running after him. I was almost winded at some points! Kind of funny really. But I could see his wisdom with that. Not sure about the bugs, maybe they see him coming and move? Or he can see every bug, or maybe his feet don't quite touch the ground? I might investigate meticulously at the next available opportunity.


Interesting stuff. Yeah, I'll keep this in mind. Maybe the bugs and him have some sort of mutual understanding that works for both.

Anyhow, thanks again, see you later
nathan


I did what you suggested and found it helpful. Seems like the initial work of tearing through the dullness is the hardest part and I've to work on developing the resolve of not giving into these things.

I also realize that I cannot depend solely on you or anyone else to answer everything for me. You can only do what you can do and trust me with the rest. So thanks for everything and for doing all of this, for me and also the others involved. Much appreciated.

Sweet Nothings,
SN

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/25/13 5:27 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
So, to move the investigation along, I'm going to add this text which defines 9 criteria for a 'Noble 4':

"Both before & now I say to you that an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these nine principles.

"[1] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life.
[2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given.
[3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse.
[4] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to tell a conscious lie.
[5] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to consume stored-up sensual things as he did before, when he was a householder.
"[6] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on desire.
[7] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on aversion.
[8] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on fear.
[9] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on delusion.


Yes, well that opens an old can of worms doesn't it? Thanks for bringing it up - this one gets some bad (unjustified I think) press.

If your bread dough has no leavening agent it will not rise. This is just an observation by someone that has made flat-bread. The one single most often stated quality of an Arahat is that their mental fermentations have ceased. This is the standard for defining Arahat in the Suttas as far as I can determine.

What are mental fermentations? If I don't know what they are then I cannot know if they have ended. Have mine ended?
If not, I am in no position to say if these statements are true or not. A better approach might be 'I have no idea'. Anyway, that is how I look at it when I'm fermenting about it.

One aspect of what is meant by mental fermentations in my view is this: It is the habit of mind to identify with phenomena - our body, thoughts, feelings, etc. and having done this - having this sense of a small me in a big world it naturally leads to fear. In Buddhas terminology it is consciousness proliferating and becoming bound-up (fettered) to phenomena (aggregates). It is this overlay that creates a world of distinct things that become objects of desire or aversion and thus suffering when we try to cling to them. And it is this grasping one thing after another that is samsara.

The physical body is physically capable of performing the sexual act, of killing, of speaking words so as to tell a lie but as we all know the physical body is not self. The Khandas are the khandas and they do what they do. What is needed to get the body involved in carrying out these various acts is our volition. I have to put together a world in which this activity becomes what I need to do. If our awareness/consciousness is already wrapped up in phenomena making a little me in time and space and generating all the stuff out there that I start thinking I need or don't want, etc. then I am at a point where desirable things charm my mind and undesirable ones bring resistance - which takes place through mental fermentations.

I find that this process can be very subtle. Thoughts starting out as little bubbles of sensation or tension in the body. Sexual energy as just a movement of subtle sensation in the body that can't be labeled as anything more.

Gain/loss, status/disgrace, censure/praise, pleasure/pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful, ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don't charm the mind, undesirable ones bring no resistance. - AN 8.6


Beyond the can't have sex part of that sutta: "It is impossible ... to follow a bias based on aversion... fear... delusion."

Now bias and mental fermentations are like peanut butter and jelly. Bias does not equal preference. If it did then Buddha would be a pile of dust at the first fork in the road he came to. Bias involves a kind of ruminating or conjuring (in the sense of "To imagine; picture") - me making and mine making.

The way I understand this sutta is that he is not saying we are physically incapable of doing these - body is not self - but that if we have completed the training - done what needs to be done - we will not be able to in a sense conjure up a justification for doing these things.

Why might he come up with such a teaching? I think many if not most monks and lay people during the Buddhas time may never have even met the Buddha in person. They learned from monks or other lay people. If you don't have some sort of objective criteria as a reference then you are left with simply judging your own subjective experience - even though by definition you have no idea what the goal really is - you have never experienced it before.

Another reason may have been as kind of a fail-safe for those monks whose desire for attainments may have out-paced actual attainments. At least this way their behavior might have been under some self-restraint even though Buddha wasn't around.

Obviously, we have some people around that don't seem to conform to this teaching though feeling they are very awakened. Is the sutta wrong? My feeling is that the Buddhas teaching is composed of both an awakening process and a specific view/way of navigating/training that informs that experience with a specific goal in mind.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/25/13 6:26 PM as a reply to Chuck Kasmire.
Gain/loss, status/disgrace, censure/praise, pleasure/pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful, ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don't charm the mind, undesirable ones bring no resistance. - AN 8.6



So, back to the phenomenology of being fettered/being unfettered, I find the occurrence of the 'eight winds', and whether mind reacts to their occurrence with hope/fear/indifference or whether these reactions don't occur, more telling at this point than whether there is a seeming solid separate self, because the latter feels so evidently illusory when attention is directed at it.

This evident illusoriness of that sense is my guess at the fetter of self-view broken at stream entry, and I am not sure exactly how that differs from the final fetter (conceit of becoming?) except by degree of thoroughness but it seems more practical for me currently to train to recognize the arising of those reactions of hope/fear/indifference (charm/resistance/ignoring?) to those eight worldly winds and to relax/release that reaction directly as and when it is remembered to do so than to search for ever subtler 'senses of solid separate self', which in turn seemed useful prior to initial awakening.

And though that ability to recognize and release dualistic fixation-- that sense of being a small self in a big world that gives rise directly to hope and fear and indifference as strategies in relation to the attempt to manage conditions-- although that was available prior to 'stream entry' and breaking the fetter of self-view, it is much more possible as a 'path' now. So it seems to me that the phenomenology of fettering/unfettering ties in with the shifting methodologies which become practical at different junctures based on what degree of insight has become automatic and self-evident (baseline shifts). Thanks for listening to my reflections, I hope they are in place in this thread, after all I am feeling neutral and interested in picking the brains of you more advanced practitioners ;)

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/10/13 4:57 AM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
"Hi again, Nathan.

Where I'm from it's considered disrespectful to address an elder by name, but I think we're cool."

Hi Mr. Nothing

I think you are very cool. I am cool and a bit odd at times so that is probably cool except when it is just plain weird. 'We' are just plain 'that's so cool man', which is very cool with me.

I understand you well about this. Even here in the west it was not so long ago when it was the same. I am old enough to have grown up in that kind of west and so I well understand your discomfort. I would probably be more comfortable to address you as Ms. S.N. or Miss Nothing as well. But I think that is a small if not unimportant matter, as these things go. So for me you can use whatever is most comfortable. How about Mr. N.M. or Mr. Think? I think Mr. Think is very funny if you like that and if you would like to continue chatting, and go with that, it is going to give me a giggle whenever I see it. Even if no one else thinks it is very funny.

I don't really know about my health or what is going to happen to my body except that it feels much closer to stopping working at all than it does to being a new and perfectly healthy body. I've never cared for this body much, it is an excellent body but there is a lot about my mind that would be much more pleased to find that it didn't have one. I've accepted that and I do my best for this body now, but I feel the same way about this as I ever did. I have no doubt I would be more pleased to give up bodies altogether, than to have to wear another one again another time. So if wearing a body happens again for a mind, such as might result from the perceptions of previous mind anything like this one, (and this is how all of this has been moving along in this life) it would probably be even more ambivalent about doing so. Anyhow, don't fret about this body, I don't at all (apart from treating it like a car at the shop for repairs). For me it is more like dragging a heavy stone behind me everywhere I go and always has been. It is hard for any of us to give something that is also always a heavy burden its full and proper respect.

"I hope you're in ease and relatively good health. I didn't want to reply because I felt you've got your hands full writing code for the 'perfectly free robots of to-morrow.' (with wording like that, I reckon what your other links might be like). I haven't wrapped my head around the fancy terminology that floats around the neo-buddhist waves, mainly because I'm too lazy and a little orthodox for this stuff."

Let's just say that I'm fine and leave it at that. As I have said this ease has very few, if any, concerns about this body. I am going to continue attempting to behave with others as if I am perfectly well until this body doesn't work at all. That will be the best and the simplest way for all of us to think about that, for this mind and body. So please, set any concerns like that aside. This is what I do.

I have been looking forward to our conversation continuing; simply because, so far, for my part, it has been the most easygoing and pleasant one I am having here at DhO. So when it is time for you to move on, I will wish you well. For so long as you would like to continue to converse and discuss the Dhamma, the Neo-Dhamma or life in general, I will welcome it. Ok?

-----
That little project of fixing the code is, so far, like the most difficult conversation (and with no one else involved in it at all yet) I am having (mostly with the kinds of people who read a lot more than they ever communicate by speech). I'm going to keep that on one or two posts of one or two threads for as long as I can continue to make changes to or add to one post. For now I suspect that little project doesn't even make a lot of clear sense to anyone else at all.

I need to contact Daniel or Carol and find out how long I can continue to do that. It would be great if I can simply continue adding to old posts instead of adding new posts to threads that otherwise could go on for many many posts in terms of what other people are doing there. (Threads are like various rooms in a big building, any number of people can do any number of the same or different things, in any given room.)

I think (so far as this has been since my return and involvement again) it already seems to me, it would be simpler, if for as long as I can add to or clarify old posts, it will keep everything simpler, for me. This would help to keep the threads I am involved in regularly to a minimum, and it will be easier for everyone if I can continue to add to past posts that are already taking up space. It only becomes more difficult to follow many different conversations otherwise especially when many conversations and various different conversations are going on involving many different writers and many different voices.

I speak and use words in many different ways depending on the listener(s). Another aspect of this is that it can become confusing for others when I speak to some question two or three or more different ways. So if the question has already been asked one or two other ways it would be better to put all of the answers in one post and show more clearly where these are different answers to the same question or something similar to that. This way others will see that I am answering one question in three (or more) ways or can look at the subject in three or more ways or whatever.

If I can do this without any time limits and if there are no objections from others, then I expect everyone will find me adding to old posts more and more as time goes on, for as long as I continue here at DhO. It will be much easier for anyone else to follow my responses, they will be better and more complete responses, Then the thread can allow for me, if not others as well, to respond more fully and to write about and revisit subjects or rewrite and continue along with more clarity and simplicity.

If I can reply to a post #234 and simply note in post #241 that I have made some additions to a post #14 or #72, this will be clearer than a new post in a longer sequence. My part then would be much simpler to manage. The only tough part of this now is starting again at the beginning again and the posts on my side aren't numbered so if I do this for a long time people will have to keep doing the same. If it becomes more common for me then I will simply 'triplecheck' the count and add in the # of my post in the sequence so we at least have that as a place to begin from later on in a sequence.

I opted from the start to try to limit the threads I have started so that people can get a sense of 'my voice(s)' and how that differs from many of the normal kinds of 'voices' that people might generally adopt when they write. My voice can appear schizophrenic when discussion is linear because of one mind and writing voice considering and speaking to one subject (or whatever) in many ways. If all of the various kinds of responses can be placed together in relation to the same or a similar topic or theme it won't look like that nearly so much anymore. Also, with having one voice with many tones and timbres always coming from the same place it will sound much differently than when similar sounds pop up all over the place like bird sounds in a forest might do.

Also my points of views can be quite different from the general views with many things. In these ways, the differences can become more clear for others. This way people can either think, 'hmm, I prefer look at this in Mr. Thunks ways instead of the ways these or those others might do or the reverse or whatever. Also others can much more easily understand that often others are looking for a common voice (also for good reasons) when I am attempting to make clearer only one voice with many different qualities and so on. This way also they can simply count me out of a more commonly held view if there is any more obvious or important difference of some kind and so on.

I'm doing that robot code job out in public so that in the long run maybe some people can have an idea how much work and time is involved in a project like that (as I am sure writing his book was and has been for someone like Daniel). In this case the task (sort of like translating a very old language into a very new language when, half of, it doesn't quite exist yet) and how long it takes to do this kind of task. It comes last in my priorities; after all of the other conversations, discussions, debates and other little projects that have already taken off for me here over a couple of weeks. It comes last after all of the other work and play for me here because I have the least hope for that kind of technical language serving most people as effectively and as well as any more every day language can. It could end up having much more precision and much better organization at some point closer to the other shore of that job and that is about all. I doubt I will ever write a book. I just like to whip up little ideas into some new confection of some kind. The I like to watch and see those kinds of novel conceptions or re-conceptions that I put together and tossed out into what I refer to as the general melt (the overall culture in any sense) get picked up by others who might never even guess where these notions popped up from, way back when. This has also been very, very instructive, for me, for a very long time.

Phew, sorry to get so technical in the middle of our chat but the particulars in the nature of the person one is addressing and the way the questions are put has a lot to do with how clearly one can respond. Your voice is fresh and your interest open enough to make this very easy to explain here compared to when the conditions closer to the other end of the range. So, I may wander on with something longer than you would wish or may seem appropriate at times simply because others may well be listening to us converse as if we were sitting in a cafe or a park. So, my apologies again, for these little tangents to our immediate conversation, ok?
---------

I said before, 'It's kind of a trade off isn't it? The main thing when you are somewhere where people do this kind of work is the silence, that is important for everybody to do these kinds of work. So that is usually the rule, right?'

I have had that same feeling of being watched too, by my betters. Kind of a 'Holy Creepy' feeling, right?'


"I agree. Even if I were given some explanation, my mind would grab onto that and then race "legally" without any brakes. The maturity shown by these people is truly remarkable.

Phew. I thought it was just me imagining these things."

Nope, not at all, whatever we might notice, someone if not many others will have noticed it before us.

"When I was new and had a slightly new age tinge, I had similar experiences. I was watching taped discourses from over 20 years ago and sometimes the pauses felt much longer than they could be, as if there was some real recognition and two way communication. Now when I think of it again, definitely funny stuff.
During one of those discourses I flipped a switch or something and the space in which the body is experienced was flooded with cool vibratory whirly twirly sensations. After a while all I could think was "How am I going to sleep like this?"

Oh man! Now you have struck a note with me (like plucking a guitar string in my body/mind)(but not in any unpleasant way, only that I sure can hear it)!

Yeah, I don't sleep much and never did, often for the same or similar reasons (reasons to do with this body/mind). My father is 79 now and I am about thirty years younger. If I take a rough estimate of about 4 hours sleep per night (which is overly optimistic, about the amount of sleep) over 50 years vs. his 8 then my waking hours are almost the equal of his already! We are beginning to see things much more in the same ways now. This shows us how big of a factor time and experience actually are over one waking lifetime.

As I said previously, 'Anyways, who's to say that purified and expansive minds can't see right through stuff anytime they glance that way either, right? The Buddha had things to say about a sense of shame being helpful. I think this is an excellent clue whenever we feel or perceive this quality. If we respect it, this feeling, the internally felt or sensed 'perceived quality', then we build up the 'conscience'.

I see the conscience, wherever and whatever it is inside of us that is signalling that 'feeling or perception' of some kind of 'moral or ethical failing, failure or shortcoming' as vital for the path. If we build up that conscience and develop that 'moral compass' then we can rely on that to signal us when something that is being sensed or considered is 'harmful and or unwholesome' or 'beneficial and or wholesome'.'

"Again, thanks for this. This is one of those places one has to especially careful about. One of those places most vulnerable to the forces of delusion, no ? At times, the idea that 'this whole moral compass thing is for lesser minds' is so appealing. Just one small leak and pooof. Some pills are hard to swallow... and some acts are tough to follow."

I'm pleased to see that at least one person can see this, which is why I am so pleased to converse with you and I hope we can continue in this for a while. It will help with all of the conversations if people can see how I do relate as often as possible in plain language but that I am not at all distressed to try any other approach that also might work. I was very concerned before I returned that I would be speaking to a vacuum in these regards (merits, virtues, demerits, shortcomings), not because there aren't many people who can sense what you can or sense it even more strongly, but because this theme has been a bit of a hot potato around the DhO for various reasons.

At this time the DhO is more of a community that is like a child than it was like a toddler when I was here before in the early days. I'm pleased to see this growth and maturity and this makes me most optimistic about DhO's future as a vital community. These are the sorts of observations that incline me toward maintaining a longer term commitment (within my own mind). Still, there are going to be tough aspects and moments in this relationship (Dho and Mr. Ka Thunk) in any case. This said there are general qualities of a community that make relating easier and similar qualities that can make relating more difficult.

Like I said before, 'This seems to be at least one vital part of the 'missing link' between the 'secular enlightenment idea' or 'technical approach to enlightenment idea' and the 'becoming a buddhist saint idea'.'

"This is part of why I'm glad to see you around. You say what needs to be said, like it needs to be said.
Personally, I'm content by just reducing my stock of unwholesomeness and mental impressions. I think its the right thing to do and have faith that if the work is not completed here, it will resume where I am formed again. After all, how can a blind man choose which color is his favorite?'

This is very direct, which is another reason why I like how your writing voice sounds for me when I read you. Maybe more direct than most people would tolerate from me. So right away we can see how it helps simply to have someone else pick up on this and say this more directly as opposed to my simply offering it up in a more direct way to begin with.

I will slowly try to bring in more directness and clarity to any conversation, if I can, over time. More often than not if I begin that way more people are more likely to be very put off by my initial approach. Anything could as easily be put in a very direct but what then might well also appear as a very harsh way to some people.

This is something that, for all its secularity, does not change very much in a secular context. No matter what or how someone may say whatever they do say to you, they will be expecting a respectful response. This is usually the funniest when conversing with very secular minded people (and especially people who are very culturally unrefined themselves in one or another ways) who may like to think that they are past these kinds of issues. Especially when very often they haven't thought these issues through very far and maybe haven't even considered some of these sensitivities and difficulties as seriously as they could.

Returning to the subject of a sense of shame or of some kind of a shortcoming, I had said before, 'Not only this, but when we perceive this quality, this is a very, very subtle kind of sensation right? The perceptions of which, are what we are developing, right?

As I've always been hinting, I'm not afraid to tackle this 'hot potato' if no one else will. We've heard the old saying, 'Fools rush in where Angels Fear to Tread?" I am just that sort of a fool. If there is something a saint would run away from talking about I will run right towards it because the last thing I want to be treated like it is as a saint. This has been very instructive for my part. The problems that this approach usually goes very badly for someone else. So if you are up for it, I would be more willing to 'go for it' in a conversation with someone who is less fresh in their thinking and less open to ways of looking at things in many ways than you are. So far my part I hope we can continue the conversation for as long as you like. I am enjoying it very much and it is much more easy going for me than it is when someone has 'a lot of stuff figured out'. There is nothing wrong with having your own particular handle on something, the problem is that there may be many other handles on it that are just as useful. If someone can't see this they can become much less open to speaking or writing more openly and bringing in many points of view that sometimes look very different than the one they find most useful for themselves.

"So being a vegetarian is not nearly as compassionate as I assumed."

Not much of anything is, I am sorry to say. Daniel would have a good sense of this being an ER doctor. There are always trade offs especially in, to use an analogy, an intense triage situation during open warfare. DhO is kind of like that sometimes, not that it is violent or bloody in any sense; only that one has to decide between one value and another and make a choice about which value is more important to prioritize in that moment. I am trying some new and maybe unusual ways of applying my time here, in a few ways, as I went into a bit before, to see if this might help somewhat with those difficulties.

"Not just bugs, also rodents and caterpillars but mostly bugs. Way more than usually assumed. At some time, I was disgusted by the compulsion for ingesting food. I have come across information that some have been able to sustain just by breath alone, but they were rare and far off in between. It's cool now and I even cook sometimes."

This plucks a couple of other strings in my body/mind for sure. Food and bugs are subjects which, in a practical ways, start to look very different when you begin to see the many dimensions of what might be perceived about these interrelationships. I'll set aside the bugs for now except to say that, in all honesty, I can only speculate about the abbot's perceptions, thinking or circumstances. I really don't know what is true for him or not we didn't touch on it at all in discussions at his monastery in any of my time there.

I won't go into viewing food issues or concerns in various ways right now (a fairly large and broad subject in our times) except to touch on one aspect of my experience which was and has continued to be very body oriented for me. When I was much younger, (many years before reading the suttas or even imagining that these existed) I used to sometimes have very strong perceptions of the loathsomeness of food. It was very easy for these to arise and it still is. So if this begins to cause difficulties for you in any way then I strongly advise that you shift your attention to any other more pleasant theme or subject. It is a very valid perception in many ways and in our times this is not treated well at all because this, the unpleasantness of physical nutrition, is not considered to be healthy when in many ways it is an entirely healthy insight. But if it starts to incline you towards not eating well or eating healthy food then you are giving too much attention to considering nutriment in that way and you should consider how it will also make you feel better to eat wholesome and suitable amounts of food. I hope you find that this is good to know. Just try to give balance to these perceptions because if it is not a misperception to begin with then it has a place in a more complete insight, knowledge and understanding which, as always, is more healthy if it includes many real or true or valid perceptions in an appropriate balance to what and how our conditions actually are arranged, at least at a given time and place.

Before, I had mentioned that, 'I don't think I had to exhaust myself entirely, just keep active a lot and keep at it until the feelings changed and then keep that up enough afterwards, although exhaustion is great for sleeping very well.'

"I did what you suggested and found it helpful. Seems like the initial work of tearing through the dullness is the hardest part and I've to work on developing the resolve of not giving into these things.

I also realize that I cannot depend solely on you or anyone else to answer everything for me. You can only do what you can do and trust me with the rest. So thanks for everything and for doing all of this, for me and also the others involved. Much appreciated.

Sweet Nothings, SN"

Well, to be completely honest again, we can't really count on much of anything in samsara. This is simply its nature and it as true within us as it is without. So, we can expect changes all the time. But it is very helpful to understand our intentions, if we know these then we have a better sense of things regardless of the changes. My intention is to continue the conversations, especial with you for as long as this is generally wholesome and beneficial for all of us. So, again, I look forward to continuing our conversation for as long as you like. Much appreciation on this end as well.


all in a heap, in appearance
not very different from any other,
remains to be seen,
Mr. Think

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 11:07 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
And though that ability to recognize and release dualistic fixation-- that sense of being a small self in a big world that gives rise directly to hope and fear and indifference as strategies in relation to the attempt to manage conditions-- although that was available prior to 'stream entry' and breaking the fetter of self-view, it is much more possible as a 'path' now. So it seems to me that the phenomenology of fettering/unfettering ties in with the shifting methodologies which become practical at different junctures based on what degree of insight has become automatic and self-evident (baseline shifts).


Hi Jake,
Good points. I agree very much with you. Thanks for the suggestions.

-Chuck

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 3:51 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
Gain/loss, status/disgrace, censure/praise, pleasure/pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful, ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don't charm the mind, undesirable ones bring no resistance. - AN 8.6



So, back to the phenomenology of being fettered/being unfettered, I find the occurrence of the 'eight winds', and whether mind reacts to their occurrence with hope/fear/indifference or whether these reactions don't occur, more telling at this point than whether there is a seeming solid separate self, because the latter feels so evidently illusory when attention is directed at it.

This evident illusoriness of that sense is my guess at the fetter of self-view broken at stream entry, and I am not sure exactly how that differs from the final fetter (conceit of becoming?) except by degree of thoroughness but it seems more practical for me currently to train to recognize the arising of those reactions of hope/fear/indifference (charm/resistance/ignoring?) to those eight worldly winds and to relax/release that reaction directly as and when it is remembered to do so than to search for ever subtler 'senses of solid separate self', which in turn seemed useful prior to initial awakening.

And though that ability to recognize and release dualistic fixation-- that sense of being a small self in a big world that gives rise directly to hope and fear and indifference as strategies in relation to the attempt to manage conditions-- although that was available prior to 'stream entry' and breaking the fetter of self-view, it is much more possible as a 'path' now. So it seems to me that the phenomenology of fettering/unfettering ties in with the shifting methodologies which become practical at different junctures based on what degree of insight has become automatic and self-evident (baseline shifts). Thanks for listening to my reflections, I hope they are in place in this thread, after all I am feeling neutral and interested in picking the brains of you more advanced practitioners ;)


In the vimuttimagga, it says that there are two phases to the path although the Vimuttimaga uses the word 'plane' in English. The first phase is that of seeing. The second phase is the phase of volition.

The first phase is getting to stream entry. You see what was previously not seen and then cannot unsee it from then on. Here it would be seeing that there is no self to find in the 5 aggregates at least long enough to do damage to the corresponding fetter of identity view.

The 2nd phase is called the phase of volition. This phase is about attending to what has already been seen in a certain way such as attending to the aggregates as they are attended to in the khemaka sutta for example. This phase is post-stream entry to arahat.

I find this distinction in methodology very interesting and corresponds to what I find myself doing in my own practice.

Here is the very short passage from the Vimuttimagga under the 5 Methods section:

PLANE
There are two kinds of planes: plane of seeing and plane of volition. Here, the Path of Stream-entrance is the plane of seeing. The other three Paths and the four Fruits of the recluse are the plane of volition. Not having seen before, one sees now. This is the plane of seeing. One sees thus and attends to it. This is called the plane of volition. And again, there are two planes: the plane of the learner and the plane of the learning- ender. Here, the four Paths and the three Fruits of the recluse are of the plane of the learner. Arahatship is learning-ender's plane.


Nick

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 3:06 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Huh, very interesting-- this sounds like the 5 Path model that seems very popular in Mahayana teachings. In which the third path is that of 'Seeing', stream entry; and the Fourth path is that of 'meditation', which is described as like following up or following through on what was Seen. (Fifth Path is that of no-more-learning, so indeed then the first four paths in this model are paths or planes of learning). An interesting note for the more advanced practitioners such as yourself is that this path of no-more-learning covers multiple bhumis. I wonder what that could mean?

So, in my life, I think I have mostly followed up on this seeing in everyday life-- examining relationships and motivation and mind's reactions to the eight winds (to positive and negative circumstances). This has definitely been an investigation, leading to some big changes in my emotional and relational life. Meditation however has mostly since then been about either 'just sitting' or else becoming subtle, being drawn into subtler dimensions of experience/sensation, depending on inclination in the moment. Either version emphasizes letting go/letting be, but have different effects in terms of immediate experience.

But it sounds like you would also recommend an active investigation in formal sitting, such as examining the aggregates sequentially and repeatedly, kind of like a mopping up, where you are really looking into these aggregates and driving the point home that there is no subject, no object there, the aggregates are simply empty appearances. Something like that?

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 3:23 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
I suspect it's not so much about investigating as it is about how we act on what we can now see. How volition is tempered, or remains unused in support of those actions which do not contribute to wisdom in consequence, non-hurtful, unhelpful, choices.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 4:04 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yeah Chris, I think that is hugely important; and yet it actually involves an element of investigation itself for me at least, insofar as there are questions to be asked about why/how it is that sometimes it *feels* easier to do the unwise, unkind thing. This has been the crux of my investigation since stream entry, and it's been pretty much entirely carried out in everyday life, with positive results.

But indeed the heart of it seems to be this natural maturing of intention into more spontaneously, well, benevolent I suppose modes which can happen as a follow up to what has been seen... As if the first Big Phase is about purifying view, and the second about purifying intent--

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 4:46 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:


But it sounds like you would also recommend an active investigation in formal sitting, such as examining the aggregates sequentially and repeatedly, kind of like a mopping up, where you are really looking into these aggregates and driving the point home that there is no subject, no object there, the aggregates are simply empty appearances. Something like that?


Hi jake,

Post-stream entry, one should be able to recognise that each aggregate is not self without too much hassle at all and 'know' it in one's bones that it isn't. This doesn't mean the the mind wont lunge and grasp at the aggregates and make them 'smell' like 'me', 'I' and 'mine'. That conceit still has its roots in. So for me, the practice has become about uprooting that very deeply engrained habitual tendency to take aspects of experience as something pertaining to a self, even though I know in my bones that it isn't. It's like knowing full well that smoking is killing one's lungs, but continuing to smoke due to the strong habitual urge to do so...i.e. addiction. There is still an addiction to this conceit which can be expressed via a plethora of ways.

So the practice then becomes one of coming back again and again to the idea that the aggregates are not of self, impermanent and ultimately not satisfactory when taken like so. This begins to heal the addiction, lessening it until ultimately, there will be no more addiction and thus no more actions based off of conceit as a jumping board.

I do so, by seeing the aggregates again and again as ephemeral, doing their own thing, sucky-to-attach-to fluff. And in doing so the mind continuously inclines towards the cessation of all mental proliferation, which I recognise as when suddenly experience has no mental overlay/curtain/ being/hazy fog/ and it's just the seen, just the heard etc. Then habitual sanna triggers another mental overlay over it all and the practice is just rinse and repeat i.e. see it all as fluff, smoke and mirrors until again the mind inclines towards the cessation of that fluff. Again and again and again. This is how i take the plane of volition.

The volition is to incline towards the cessation of it all again and again, seemingly training the brain towards fully realising that fabricating all that proliferation is simply madness and its complete absence trumps it all. Attending to the 5 aggregates again and again like so, overlaying them with the 3 perceptions are a way to incline towards cessation as I see it and come out of the addiction I know in my bones to be nothing but fluff but addictive fluff all the same, just like the deadly ciggies. The volition is to incline towards the deathless as I see it.

This was also inspired by the quote below.

[Anuruddha & Sariputta discuss meditation]

Anuruddha: “Brother Sariputta with the divine eye, which is clarified and supernormal, I am able to perceive a thousandfold world system. My energy is strong and inflexible; my remembrance is alert and unforgetful; my body is calmed and unexcited; my mind is collected and unified. Yet my mind is still not freed, without clinging, from the defiling taints (asava).”

Thereupon Sariputta replied: “When you think, brother Anuruddha, that with your divine eye you can perceive a thousandfold world system, that is self-conceit in you. When you think of your strenuous energy, your alert mindfulness, your calmed body and your concentrated mind, that is agitation in you. When you think that your mind is still not liberated from the cankers, that makes for scruples in you. It will be good if the revered Anuruddha would discard these three things, would not pay attention to them and would instead direct his mind towards the Deathless-element (Nibbana).”

Having heard Sariputta’s advice, Anuruddha again resorted to solitude and earnestly applied himself to the removal of those three obstructions within his mind (AN 3:128), more: Wheel 262, BPS.
The above quote is taken from here.



Nick's current two cents which may change in future.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 4:50 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
This is my own interpretation of my own experience which may change in future.

There seems to be a deeply habitual urge for the mind to lunge and co-create mental objects that overlay the experience of the field of experience, cutting up and sectioning out parts, evaluating them as good, bad or meh, and then reacting towards those physically and mentally to express those evaluations in some way, usually a sucky way.

This incessant movement of lunging seems automatic, out from 'my' control so to speak. Yet, when I look , usually from a firm base of jhana, that motion to lunge and co-create can be seen to be fuelled by the very act of not seeing them arise. Because when they have the light of attention (conditioned with either one of the three perceptions) shed on them, the mind then sees how ridiculous those urges to lunge and co-create are and overtime it becomes easier to lean the mind or incline or metaphorically step back and let the flow of mind (papanca as I see it) dwindle then ultimately cease. A lack of ignorance of those urges to lunge and co-create, inclines the mind towards ceasing them.

Am I making sense? It is hard to put into words what I do in practice. Lately, there has been an ability to see experience flow, see the aggregates arise and pass with a lunging motion, see how ridiculous it all can be and thus incline to dispassion towards it all, and see the movement and flow of mind/papanca dwindle just due to taking this view and allowing it to infect all of experience. Then sooner or later, more sooner these days, the mind simply stops proliferating, maybe an infamous cessation occurs, maybe it's suddenly just the back of the eyelids that is experienced or a sound, but it's hard not to call it just the seen, just the heard, just the cognised a la Bahiya as it is free from all the extra weight of proliferation. The inclining towards the cessation of it all is a volition that I seem to be developing to get stronger and stronger as I keep doing it. Behaviourally it has seen a lot of aspects of my personality drop away such as the 'urge' to argue with people and convince others of my point of view. This has been a very big change as of late.

Edited a few times for clarity.

Nick

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 5:37 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
I'm getting you, Nick. The seeing is what one obtains first, and that is required before anything further can succeed it. But there seems to me to be an almost inevitable pull toward the examination and then the tempering of the lunging reactions you refer to. That has been the shape of my practice for some time now - it's more about outcomes, which is the cooling of the ignorant urges that used to permeate my internal experience.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/26/13 8:01 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Mmmm, yes, I can relate to alot of what you are saying, thanks for those posts. Particularly I resonate with the way in which prapanca factors in. Indeed the daily life practice that I have referred to is directly involved with seeing and stopping proliferation. What I call 'dualistic charge' or dualistic tension is like a basic fuel that propels the illusory prapanca and gives any given chain its emotional flavor (desire, anger, pride, jealousy etc). It all seems bound up with habitual patterns of feeling and perception. The feeling bit giving the positive-negative-neutral flavor and the perception bit overlaying the dualistic illusion of subject-object on the basic openness and completeness of contact.

These basic feeling-perception themes then become like seeds of prapanca, in which they are elaborated internally, and/or speech and action which express the seeds. All of this is like a complex of feedback loops, seeds, proliferations, actions of body and speech, all feeding back into each other, which complex feeds back with others' complexes, creating much of social life.

Breaking the chain by noticing it is occurring and then tracing it back-- words/deeds <--prapanca<--dualistic charge unwinds the mess. This habituates mind to notice when it is engaging in these dramas and have a sense of humorous regret, wind it back, let it go. Oops! Reset to the zero point! (The interesting thing about prapanca is it seems to be the mechanism that gives rise to a certain sense of time-as-sequence, and its cessation seems likewise markedly timeless).

I think one issue I may be starting to notice (reflected in my line of questioning) is simply that, when sitting, there is automatically a lot less of all that mess now, so that stuff is happening on a subtler level that I am feeling drawn to examine more closely (in formal practice). In daily life it is usually much more... obvious lol ;) (at least to my close ones who call me on it!).


In any case I am not convinced that there must be one way of dealing with our 'issue', suffering, the complex of prapanca-behavior-deep tendencies/seeds. Possibly this line of reflection ties in with the conversation about what is possible for an accomplisher in terms of overt behavior, what that point of completion may look like from the inside, etc.

The framework I am operating in is conditioned by the central asian strains of Buddhism moreso than the southeast asian, and so I am inclined to think of the 'what to do' with/about suffering question in terms of multiple different modalities-- namely, on a continuum from eliminating the components which give rise to the complex through self-liberation of the complex moment to moment without eliminating the components. I can find all these approaches useful (i.e., liberating) in my own practice so I am inclined to provisionally accept the traditional claims that these approaches-- when carried to their extremes-- produce different results in terms of what that accomplisher can do, and what his or her experience is like, and yet be similar results in that there is deep and lasting freedom from the compulsion to act out behaviors that harm self and others, and to unlock profoundly positive aspects of mind's deep nature. Anyhow, enough for now, going to go sit and go to bed!

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/28/13 5:38 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
tripleops Post 34 11/27/13

hello again good 01234 friends of noble birth, both familiar and newly encountered,

Thanks for such a warm and enthusiastic welcome back these last two weeks at the DhO (I've been thinking of going with DO just to save a little time! : ).

Great inputs and exchanges so far everyone.

Since returning to DhO so far, I've observed a noteworthy improvement in the level of the overall dialog. I tried a few 'ice balloons' early on and there is some significant overall refinement in the interactions which was perhaps 'less common' in the earlier days. I am enthusiastic to rise to the occasion with such trends but it will take a while to catch on to where everyone else in particular is at these days. I've spent a lot of time 'offline' and in the 'wilds' since spending time with this group. It will take me a while to pick up on any protocols and particulars that have since then become more the norm. Even then I am still going to be... unusual...

Ice Balloons
http://www.exploratorium.edu/ifi/activities/iceballoons/iceballoons_fulltext.html
----

In the threads I've initiated I've been trying various new approaches we might try out in sharing, learning and thinking through many of our mutual concerns. Most everyone's been quite tolerant and patient with me so far and this is appreciated and encouraging.

Some of these thought and speech experiments I've introduced may stand up to time and more than a few will likely land on their faces. I expect we will have a clearer sense of which is which down (up?) stream in the time line. I'm hopeful we may at least discover some new ideas about what might be helpful, effective and beneficial to try out in spaces like DhO and what might not. I see you have been doing much the same all along. Awesome.

At this point in this thread I'm hopeful that we can examine some of our overlapping 'grey areas' as a group. A Venn Diagram painted in darkness and light. It will take time to see what is easily washed out and what is still in deep shadows when more lights are gathered and illuminate the darkness together in some collective ways. With that metaphor in mind, I will continue to see a part of my role in this thread as redirecting attention when necessary to our mutual objectives.

This said, it is early in the evolution of these peculiarly (effective - is my hope) well informed and experienced gatherings I am so keen to assemble, so I am open to any and all appropriate flexibility. Once we get some more bearings as a group I hope to see more coordination and cooperation emerge in actually moving our mutual understanding forward as opposed to any 'wandering on'. We all want to stay out of the rice fields, and on the path right? As any vital and living thread must in some sense wander on, I hope we will all gravitate together more with time towards the most promising kinds of trails and tracks we together may discover.

In a recent response to Sweet Nothings I've made some fairly readable and plain statements (for me) about some new approaches I am keen to be trying out with any or all of the triplethunked threads as these evolve. I plan to go back to the start of threads and think through the conversations and discussions every now and then to see where I have been unclear or could be more clear (or be less offensive and yet make a difficult subject clearer in very few words, very difficult for me and my apologies for this) or where I could add some more perspective or some references or links and so on. I can see themes and topics emerging and I am cool with bringing in any kinds of perspectives in many voices but I would also like to see some more ordered and thoughtful presentations emerge over time. This is not going to happen overnight but I hope to encourage these kinds of tendencies to continue to grow and evolve over time, for so long as I can keep at it.

I had an email exchange with Daniel and as far as we know everyone has full editorial control over every post they add to a thread. I encourage anyone with some insight in the areas we are working at here in the tripleops thread and everyone with knowledge to add to continue to add new posts and input. Not only this however, but also to 'upgrade' or 'enhance' the posts previous in the light of whatever follows, whenever and wherever new considerations of value and merit come to mind. All this in an effort to improve the quality as well as the quantity of these collective meditations, investigations, studies, reviews, discussions, &c..

I am going to continue to go back over my previous posts and try out these ideas. So expect more attempts and more examples of my efforts to pop up and become available as time passes. If you are interested in these approaches, scroll around and see what might be new, even on the old ground.

Rather than add many posts which can quickly become harder to follow I am keen to find out if I can simplify, clarify and otherwise improve my part in all of this by adding to existing posts if and when new insights or knowledge come to mind. More than a few considerations and perspectives do come to mind all at once for me and as often over a period of time. I have a few posts already which are more like a rough working document at this stage which I can see improving almost indefinitely until the sometimes peculiar contents become far more clear and understandable.

Another thought I had was when making significant editorial changes or additions, to note the date before opening 'edit' add that date at the bottom of the initial post and a solid line or some indicator and then add more below with the new date at the bottom again.

In these various ways, where a linked thought or reference is appropriate the overall structure of the thread is already taking on an order but it is also somewhat dynamic, organic and evolutionary. If others pick up on some of this growth and change, others might also be inspired to "triplethink" some ways of contributing great content to the group that otherwise might have been more inclined (as a net effect of the nature of long and multifaceted discussions) to merely 'wander on'.

Another consideration is to number each post I add in the overall sequence so if I start a thread and ten more posts follow when I add another I will again note it as number eleven in the total sequence and then I and others won't have to begin a count from the first post every time they would like to refer to any other particular post that isn't directly linked already.

If any of this interests anyone else, please think this over and experiment a bit, maybe once, maybe twice, whatever...

-------
Breath caught and moving forward again then;

Nikolai .:

In the vimuttimagga, it says that there are two phases to the path although the Vimuttimaga uses the word 'plane' in English. The first phase is that of seeing. The second phase is the phase of volition.

The first phase is getting to stream entry. You see what was previously not seen and then cannot unsee it from then on. Here it would be seeing that there is no self to find in the 5 aggregates at least long enough to do damage to the corresponding fetter of identity view.

The 2nd phase is called the phase of volition. This phase is about attending to what has already been seen in a certain way such as attending to the aggregates as they are attended to in the khemaka sutta for example. This phase is post-stream entry to arahat.

I find this distinction in methodology very interesting and corresponds to what I find myself doing in my own practice.

Here is the very short passage from the Vimuttimagga under the 5 Methods section:

PLANE
There are two kinds of planes: plane of seeing and plane of volition. Here, the Path of Stream-entrance is the plane of seeing. The other three Paths and the four Fruits of the recluse are the plane of volition. Not having seen before, one sees now. This is the plane of seeing. One sees thus and attends to it. This is called the plane of volition. And again, there are two planes: the plane of the learner and the plane of the learning- ender. Here, the four Paths and the three Fruits of the recluse are of the plane of the learner. Arahatship is learning-ender's plane.


Nick
Again, there is much in every insight that everyone is bringing in which I would like to respond to, all of it brings to mind parallel or divergent, older and newer, etc. associations with various aspects of insights, knowledge and understanding.

I thought this contribution of Nick's would be a good place to 'jump in'.

I have an emerging thesis about all of this, which if it works for others could give all of it some useful shape that may be helpful in ordering some of our thinking in a fresh way. I have begun to introduce the related themes in various posts in various places.

I think I would like to introduce this 'thesis' (simply a working theory) again here and, possibly, if there is sufficient interest in more detail in a new thread (triplethesis?) in a much longer first post where I can be more comprehensive and then let whatever discussion follows really scrutinize those ideas to see if that raft will float.

Nick's point here is a very good place to link the ways I have been looking at all of this, to the other ideas, those with which most may be more familiar to those they may be less so familiar. Any point in the discussion so far would have been as good, this one is suited to what is most clear in my mind at this moment in light of the last few weeks of considerations.

I will present what follows by adopting a premise which I will hope we can simply assume for the moment - this being that stream entry is old news for me and that I have been spending this lifetime floating upstream on my back and watching the scenery behind me go by. So here goes:

The reason I prefer this particular premise is that this matches my 'knowns' better than any other variations we might opt for. A premise to in the same ways consider where I may be at regarding this path and where I might be placed on that path. From my perspective this scenario matches more closely and precisely than any other premise when considering how this life's qualities, conditions, circumstances and day to day experience have been in my case.

Based on this distinction between a path of seeing (as one of attention) and a subsequent path of volition (as one of attending to) completely matches the nature of how my life has unfolded.

If we can accept for the purpose of consideration that I was 'born into and on the path of volition' I can present how this has 'looked' to someone who has always 'seen' in this way, with a dhamma eye or wisdom eye, a third eye, built right in from day one.

I can tell you this is a somewhat different view than the one most struggle with for any time after stream entry, when they make a transition from 'blind' to 'sighted' at any point later on in a lifetime.

What I 'see' - as samsara- certainly has not changed its overall appearance, by nature, at all since 'go'. So when I turned to reading about dhamma/dharma it was simply as though I had finally found 'my family'. No one in "Mundania", {and honestly, this is exactly how I referred to the worldly, commonly held or samsaric perspective I encountered in everyone else I'd ever known, (until say, 1998) for decades before I had ever heard of sutta's. I'm sure I could contact more than a few people I hung out with as a teen to confirm this much.} no one in the world I knew could 'relate' to me and I could not at all 'relate' to them. It was as if I was an entirely different species entirely. I looked the same on the outside, but the mind was entirely different in how it was and is wired.

Concentration is not an issue, insight is not an issue, none of that is work to turn on at all.

'What is dhamma near impossible', to coin a phrase, is to turn any of that off!


So taking these conditions as a given, any claim to 'stream entry' is not true. It would be more appropriate to say I am 'the inheritor of such kamma. So simply as a premise, a best guess about what happened, this is where I begin. Otherwise it does not make sense to me. This fits perfectly, nothing else really can be made to fit the conditions.

You can trust that I have considered every possible alternative, for a very long time, and will continue to do so. I prefer to simply take this as the most suitable explanation but in many senses I can not treat it as a known fact simply because I (who I am in this life) did not exist at that time when a stream entry most likely occurred. If it ever becomes clear when and how that did happen in a different body and mind, in another life, I will certainly note it and pass that along as well. However even if I knew now more clearly what happened or to whom precisely it happened to I do not think I would be willing to 'claim it'. Instead, if I was certain of who or how or where or when, I would say 'so and so' accomplished this task and I am the 'fortunate inheritor' of such 'wealth'.

So, now if we can all simply suppose this much {as if I have (tentatively) scrawled all of this up on a blackboard or a whiteboard} then I would like to pause and make what I think is another important point which follows from this next.

No less than the Buddha himself has said that what most concerns all of you, this is to say, your 'view', this radical break with the way that you look at everyone and everything and the new way that you see all of this now. This new view, this completely different view is, all of it, for me, simply a given.

I accept it totally, I cannot do otherwise, it is the only such 'view' I have ever had. So much so that to me it isn't even a view anymore. For me it is all, simply so.

Now, I would like to say also that I have the greatest of respect for any and all of you who have accomplished this. The Buddha himself has also said that this change, this entering the stream, is most all of the work. So I have seen and so to have others. So BRAVO ladies and gentlemen, KUDOS, CONGRATS, etc.. You are almost there. No less than the Buddha himself has also said that if wandering on for all time is what is behind you then what lies ahead is much more like watching the credits at the end of that movie. So if you are sure, if you are certain you are honestly in this stream, relax. Relax little and just look around and appreciate this, this new view and new vista with these new eyes, when you can.

Because you are not going back there again, ever. It is all onward and then done from here.

So no less so, in this sense, all the more so why not store up great merit and conceivably now enjoy what time remains in some far far better worlds than this one?

I can't promise anyone it will be so but, no less than before, why not afford and allow for the opportunity to at least find out?

I'm not saying one can find out by slacking off, not at all, I think it will require real serious efforts, but now, for any such a one, any such an investment is far more likely to pay out very rich dividends. Something to consider anyways.

So again, having paused to insert these considerations I can move on with this kind of a 'view in the rear view mirror'.

I would like also to explain what and why I am reluctant to speak and what and why I am keen to say. Not in particular what but in particular why.

Because I have never met anyone like me I have never been able to compare notes. Consider for a moment also how much more readily all of you can and do. So even though I am on the inside of this view with all of you, I am much more like this view is all that was ever inside of me. So what is amazing and fresh and holds your attention so fully for me is all simply a given and I have other concerns.

So this is an introduction to the difference one can expect between this path of seeing and the path of volition. These similarities and these differences also matches perfectly what I know of all of this as the contemporary ways you see this and as Dhamma by the book and as all of my life has always been.

In some ways, as seeing, it is most familiar, in other ways, as volition, I feel entirely alone in it most of the time. So there are aspects that can only be exactly the same but in just this way, in what is to be done about seeing in this way, we are more often not in agreement.

But the seeing is most of it, even in practice. So again, relax, and don't think of me as someone wagging a finger, think of me as someone who is laughing with you and not as some who is laughing at you. Ok?

Again, with all of this, I am not keen to 'claim' any of it, however you can accept, if you like, that I can not ever 'be' otherwise. Ok?

At the same time I am not adverse in any way to 'challenges' or 'refutations' or 'disregard' of such 'reputations'. Because again, no matter what anyone else says, no matter what I say or do, I cannot "be" otherwise. So why should I care? Why should I be concerned? I have been considered mad as often as sane. By professionals no less. But I am sure I can get them to testify as well that they have no clue whatsoever about 'why' or in 'what ways' I am "out of my mind". hahaha : )

Sorry, couldn't stop it there. Yes I can still laugh, and more often, and perhaps I will be back here, in this world for doing so.

But perhaps then that most fortunate one will at least have these few pages, right here, for comfort and for an explanation, and he will also feel, as though he had written these words himself. But I don't think he will be alone in feeling that way if what this life is like for any reason at all is what anyone else here might also be in another lifetime to come. So all of this is here now, for you and for your purposes, but it is also for whomever however might follow.

I would be far more comfortable to hear someone, anyone with the same story to tell. That would be most comforting. But so far, no luck, in that. Still, there may be very good reasons. Perhaps they are in a better place or no place at all. Or even more likely, should they have been in the east, long in the robes already and far more comfortable in silence. Which would also be well.

So, no biggie.

This has already grown long and I don't want to drag this out but too much more but I would like to add one more thought about this and it is also, I think, very important to add in light of the immediately above thoughts.

If there were, should there be, five, or four, or even one other person who can tell this same story, a 'born in the stream story', then I would be far more comfortable, even here, but otherwise, even here, I feel somewhat 'different' from others. Not that this is in anyway a problem in itself. Not at all.

Yet if there was one more, (likewise, born as a) 1, 2, or 3 or 4 here, we could compare notes in great detail - In every minute or broad senses, how this/these is/are the same story(s). However, considering I am alone in this particular way, I am not nearly so comfortable to do so, to go into all of my life's minutia. It simply makes no difference. I can tell one, two ten a hundred stories or one, two ten a thousand details and still most everyone here will be looking at details. Some will say, I see no such details, others will say I see such a thing or other and so on. And in all of it I will be thinking, but all of that is simply the same, simply what is, as it is. So for me, from this view, nothing has moved anywhere, the volition of this view is not really yet quite seen for what it is.

I would like to speak, precisely to that, and at length, but perhaps elsewhere in a new thread even or later in this one. For now, lets just chew this up a bit, get the taste of it, spit it out, swallow it, savor the sweetness, gag on the flavor, whatever, it is enough to consider. There is much more as well.

[If you return to the quote Nick provided which I have quoted again from his post you will see that I have underlined what I think is the key concern. I do not think, once it changes the seeing changes very much. The emphasis shifts entirely from attention to attending to; in the ways similar to how the duties change from those of a watchman to those of a guardian. Now one sees, now one can no longer say the enemy is not at the gate, now one must keep the enemies well outside of that gate. Something to consider.]

I return the discussion then to all of you. Thank you for any and all attention. I look forward to each and every one of each and all of your thoughts and words.

yours
another heap
remains to be seen
nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/27/13 6:49 AM as a reply to triple think.
Tripleops Post 35 11/27/13

One more no less important note:

About Sainthood, Today.

And this is not from the Buddhadhamma, but no less true.

I do not wish to be a saint today or yesterday or tomorrow. Or ever, IN THIS WORLD.

I think this, if by or from no one else, has been more than amply demonstrated, and more than adequately documented

that: if you are a perfect saint, in this world, as such, your days are numbered, and numbered very few.

It has been known and so proclaimed for some 2000 years.

That if you should so demonstrate, a perfection, of your being, if you clean first, as such a one said, the inside of your bowl, entirely, so that it is perfectly clean, and still go forth and wander,

then there is no place for you here.

Such days are gone from us all.

Since one man, and one tree did so cruelly and completely show.

No less so, the very many saintly women and men, who since have burned up in the fires of this world.


So no, it would be very nice, as always to be a perfect saint, or any kind of a saint.

But no.

One may then be recognized, as such. So no.

NO FUCKING THANK YOU VERY MUCH !

So, if that is a criteria for stream entry, then perhaps I should be hiding better than I am.

I'm very sorry about this. But it is true.

_________

and one last thing

if you have the heart to bear it

so if it is too broken already do not read on

I am merely, this kind of animal. This, even this, terrifies me.

For is it not also said that perfected saints, only and always, give away everything and ask for nothing?

So, should the animals too, all burn up in the fires of this world, what good will it be then, what is left to any who remain?

So again, my apologies, for even mentioning this, as well.

nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/27/13 12:07 PM as a reply to triple think.
Nathan, that is beyond fascinating. I do have a few questions, and pardon me if they seem impertinent because they are coming from curiosity, not disrespect:

1. Do you believe your condition is the result of a reincarnation, of the inheritance of this view from another lifetime, or do you think it may be a quirk of biology, neurology, or a naturally occurring phenomenon of some kind?

2. When, and how, did you discover that your view was so different from the vast bulk of the human beings you encounter in your present lifetime? How old were you when you figured this out? Did the figuring out require an introduction to introspection, meditation, of Buddhist doctrine?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/27/13 4:22 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Tripleops Post 37 11/27/13

Chris Marti:
Nathan, that is beyond fascinating. I do have a few questions, and pardon me if they seem impertinent because they are coming from curiosity, not disrespect:
hi Chris,
Not at all impertinent, seem obvious enough, and not far from my own. Even with the kinds of respect or absences thereof, as long as I catch which one it is so I am responding to the right one, and there is no heat coming from either side, respect what or disrespect what? Four quarters for my dollar? Why bother? This is it, what I have on any of it that is clear at all, anything else to the contrary of what I do know and do see is simply not true or available to my knowledge. Unless or until this or that which is new arises to my awareness and presents itself otherwise and such. If so, you are all the only people who seem to want to even know. I'm amazed this is even so in any way at all. It was well beyond my hopes, So thank you to Daniel and to everyone and Wow! I am likewise fascinated.

Chris Marti:
1. Do you believe your condition is the result of a reincarnation, of the inheritance of this view from another lifetime, or do you think it may be a quirk of biology, neurology, or a naturally occurring phenomenon of some kind?
Well this is the truth of this really, it could be any of these or none.

So on the first one I've already tried to say, this would be the easiest way to sum all of it up, so far as I know. But I don't know what else I might know about it in days or years to come and as before, now and in the future I will cast as wide a net as possible to catch even one more glimpse of what might better reveal it or explain it, I don't care from where or from who. I kind of 'need' to better know. So there would probably always be more I could add, even only from the past, but that would take a long, long time.

A model I am spending more and more time comparing is, a high functioning autism of some kind, to give you some sense of the overall ranges in at least one direction.

I have looked at this through a lot of lenses, and considered a lot of models, if anyone has, almost desperately, for a over three decades. I had read a few zen books which I could relate to but didn't really tell me anything about anything that I might even think about very much. A few tibetan books which were interesting but I couldn't make any sense of it. The Buddhadhamma was almost a complete unknown for me until about 1998. I found and read a beat up old copy of the Visuddhimagga which was alright, but even so, a bit of a stretch for me at the time.

Then I found the Nikayas and it was all entirely, so far as I do see it, samsara, at all, exactly what I see, word for word. Why say again what no one, as I see this stuff, can beat for precision already. I can't begin to imagine why they try in this dharma business. I suppose it is like any other business so far as it is one, (which the DhO is not nor has it ever been thanks to the ministrations of one very excellent Doctor, to all my knowledge of such things, thank you again Daniel!). Many people can't see the quality of this or that even when it is in their hands.

The Nikayas all matches up to fact, from everything I know and have ever seen. Way past what anyone is going to believe these days, so I am under no illusions about that. Sorry, don't intend to sound like a preacher, simply remaining honest. I can dress it up or dress it down, so I will go at it both ways here ok, for the moment? Brace yourself for future self censure, (I have been pressed to do so, simply by life, more often than not) and if you must know, read it now.

I do know, for sure, stuff like where it was said, 'where fire and air and water and earth find no footing, etc..'

But a lot of people around here do know this also, so, no big whoop. Also about the intermittent nature of ongoing perception, how it flashes on and off so fast that unless we crank down the rpms, so to speak, we can't even catch that this is going on. Right?

So I know right from there, there is what is available to perception, and what proceeds from being like this, and beyond this and that which can be percieved, zip. So anything else, in this universe, or not, that I cannot perceive, no frigging way I even could know about it. Unless this again changes. And with that I am entirely open to it happening at any time, what do I have to loose?

Not only this though, every measure or machine we have so far thought up and slapped together only finds that all of it is even more insubstantial and temporary and empty and that there is even less again that we can even imagine about what else might be than the next to nothing we even can know. So until some new genius finds some completely novel new way to find out otherwise, so shall it be, and that is it. Kind of hit a metaphoric wall there, and some other places and ways, just like anybody who cares to look any of it over.

So the rest is simply, whatever else is happening, which always has an upside and a downside and it is just a coin toss in way too many ways to make me comfortable, honestly. I would like to get what little I do see, of what otherwise is demonstrably and verifiably in any other ways not at all clear, better in perspective, about the day to day, figured out and deal with any of that. Mostly, that is the stuff that grinds on me day to day. Otherwise, not sure why I should be especially concerned as it makes its own perfect sense. This, or nothing, hmmm, kind of crappy either way, if you ask me. Not saying I don't see it in a lot of colors. I do too. But for all practical purposes, this is the world and life and being that we have and we seem collectively dedicated to little else but putting an end to all of this as soon as possible anyways, so that is probably the biggest mystery of this world I would like to have explained to me by the people who have more or less bought and paid for all of it and all of us and own the whole friggin mess at this point. Sorry to say. No response yet from that pinnacle of human development yet either. Another void it would seem, a much hungrier one and coming for me as opposed to my heading for it, is my sense.

So it goes with the rest of 1. a body, a mind, except for 'accidents' of 'birth' all just like the next accident over. All kinds of quirky, all kinds of the same as well. Same old, same old, and, very strange in some respects. Which is why I am here, nail down that strangeness long enough to look it over, and presto, more of the same old, same old.

Which is not to say that any of these more direct questions have not turned my head from all of this much of the time, these most certainly have. So, if anything will help, I am all for full disclosure, of everything I know, because it doesn't add up to much in the face of what is coming for me, you, us all as I see it, and looming closer daily. That is freaking me out more all the time.
Since I am doing my best to be entirely truthful and not overstep that and not sell any song and dance show at all.

The way I look at it, I am an open book, to open to be pleasant to read, but no secrets, just this strangeness also. That in other ways I do not understand and only becomes weirder from here. So these are the bricks and mortar, that if anyone will believe they could believe is true of me. If you want the super strange stuff, that most people would not want to believe, then that takes off in another way from here. But that is more what catches the eye and is flashy in the second hand view. This is the nuts and bolts that anyone can apply for themselves and see at some point that I am not attempting to mislead anyone.

Chris Marti:
2. When, and how, did you discover that your view was so different from the vast bulk of the human beings you encounter in your present lifetime?
Sure, but is it really? No silver spoon, don't float above the ground or anything, have to brake in traffic. You know.

Yeah, maybe this is evasive in a lot of other ways. So back to it.

Well I have been laying it all out in plain view, to the extent that people will even tolerate me to begin, from day one.

This has been about the best treatment I've ever seen from 'humanity', so far, all of you here, I am keen to have you all know.

Consider what I have written so far, in the two weeks I have been back 'on board' so far.

When Daniel started this forum, the great enlightened minds around at the time wouldn't even hear of it. (No offense intended, to any of you then or now, but...never mind then.)

So if you like, back to day one.
In my baby pictures, that I have seen, I sit like a Buddha. By all accounts also behaved much the same. Never cried out, a little angel boy. I'm not the one to ask for adult, first hand observations of those times.

Its been all downhill from there. Getting closer to everyone else's world every day, scares me to say it too, but it all rubs on and it all rubs off, in much the same ways. Just about rubbed through to the other side already. So I'm counting the days off now, blessedly.

I've gotten the same treatment as I mostly have for thirty-five years, since the first day I saw it for real, like it is, inside here and started asking these same questions that anyone else who sees this and that would ask.

Of which (my 'treatment') has been, "We would like to increase your prescription and add a couple even more seriously nasty drugs. To which, because I can not even fathom the point of this, much less why they would always, as a hard and fast rule, not ever even speak to me or advise me or consult me at all, but prefer always first, to drug me into yet another kind of oblivion and throw me in a box..., I have replied, "F--k you m-------er f------kers, (my profound apologies but I am again simply being frank and honest about how any man feels when he is treated like an animal) I am out of here!", and head back out for the woods and as deep into them as possible for as long as I can.

So yeah, people who have it all figured out 'for me' are simply 'in-credible' (look it up) enough as it is, most of them with any real power or control over me, in far less pleasant days past, of any kind. So no thanks again to any respects, I'm sorry to say again, not in my 'values system'. Respect who, for what exactly, lately? I have spent far more time with disrespectful people and understand these people more directly.

Mom, dad, sure they earned it all and more respect that I can muster now, no doubt. Most of the others I have met, on the whole, not quite so much overall. But this is not news to anyone who really cares for truth or peace or sense in a senseless world like this. Which is not at all to say that I have not met exceptional and wonderful people as well, very many too.

So my prayer, if any, is that I am not only from out of this world, but from out of this entire universe, and soon will be so again.
My expectation however, is that I will have to figure out the way out, entirely on my own in the most important ways. So I put everything I have into that, and gather up any help I can find. Anyone who thinks it all ends here, when this life does, can take that bet if they prefer. I do not expect it will be nearly so simple and that it will never be easier than to work with all due haste on that problem right now.

So these are honest and straight up sentiments, locked and loaded, and pointed, at my own head, if any,

Not that if you search long enough and hard enough you won't make a few friends as I have also attempted to do here and now in each and every day with every one I meet. But you can count on me for honesty, and to be so if that honesty kills me, (so far, so often, so close, but no cigar) and frankly, all I want out of any deal like that is to shake that hand and kiss that bullet first.
Chris Marti:
How old were you when you figured this out? Did the figuring out require an introduction to introspection, meditation, of Buddhist doctrine?
The first memorable nirodha, et al, about 15, the obvious otherwise, all along. The really spooky mysteries, still scrutinizing, but I have more insight, slowly, every day, if I continue staring into it. I can be very stubborn if I take an interest. Not in taking views, or even a parking spot, but about knowing what truth is to be seen and known.

Chris Marti:
Thank you in advance for your answers.
No problem, and, if you still feel that way, fire away, I just so happen to be burning little but time away today. Have a few really messed up old posts of mine to scratch away on and plod on with and maybe think of a few better words for stuff and so on. I have some other ideas to share if I can even find the right words for them at some point, ongoing projects to think about right here.

There was a real storm of posts when I showed up and "faced the music" again initially, and I was thinking of any ways I could to keep it all straight and deal with it fairly, but it has "mellowed out" for now. Otherwise, thank you all again for your patience.

Now it looks, like it always does, sorry to say, that the whole truth and nothing but the truth, turns more people off than it turns people on. Then again, communication is my weakest link, again always because of the honest and direct ways I speak to the truth, if at all possible. I make friends easily, I have to be very very quiet to keep them for a long time. I hope I was minimally offensive, its all been as true as I can say without a lot more offense, but it makes a huge difference how one puts things. This is also something I am 'demonstrating' as much as possible.

If you have more you would like me to respond to, just point me at it and I will sound off on it. Otherwise,

all the best with all the rest
carry on Chris, however you see is best.

remnants and regards
nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/27/13 4:36 PM as a reply to triple think.
Nathan, I take from your reply that you have sought some kind of explanation or assistance from the medical community? I assume this because you mention the drugs and such. Do you perceive them to be of no help at all these days? Do you feel that approaching the neuroscientists that seem to be interested in the same kind of things we are, but more from a biological/neurological perspective, might provide you with some increased insight into how this happened to you?

I'd be interested in hearing about these other, more "out there" experiences of yours, if you feel comfortable sharing. Maybe on another topic?

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/28/13 4:17 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
tripleops Post 39 triplethink

now occupied by - triplethink - for reading at present and for future use in better organized versions of posts 39-40

re: Psychological and Psychiatric Models

Chris Marti:
Nathan, I take from your reply that you have sought some kind of explanation or assistance from the medical community?
No, one should never assume, it only makes... more pharmaceutical psychiatrists and pharmaceutical corporate lobbyists.

[ Space Reserved for a future listing of:

All Known Pharmaceutical Compounds Known, Investigated and Understood Via Satipatthana in This System
aka
How to FUCK IT BAD and How to FUCK IT GOOD


Including

Will have to look up the Pharmie's Names and #s, etc.

Lets say 50 some

Know the Names, Forms and Functions and most Properties of most of the Commonly Used Entheogens, et at. and likewise sufficiently up to speed.

Although not with the same enthusiasm as was displayed by various oppressors regarding the former.

Should any interest in such a list ever arise in future.

Otherwise, moving on.]

Chris Marti:
I assume this because you mention the drugs and such.

Well I sure as heck have now, haven't I?! Better not cross that border now, sorry 'Merca.

Chris Marti:
Do you perceive them to be of no help at all these days?

Well this is a complex compound of social issues pretty much requiring an exceedingly long thread of its own, if any subject does.


Chris Marti:
Do you feel that the neuroscience is interested in the same kind of things we are,..
It would be if it could see what we see and know what we know. But this will take more time at this point if it is to happen at all. These are two very young fields of research.

Chris Marti:
Would this provide you with some increased insight into how this happened to you?

Hmmmm, I would be very thankful if you, or someone else who is interested could re-write this passage either in your post or elsewhere. Sounds like it is worth commenting on, whatever it was saying. Anyhow I could comment on neuroscience, been keeping an eye on the literature, what is affordable, journals being as they presently are and so forth. Whole other worm can...

Given that they have quantum technology at their disposal, I suspect they could learn astounding things if they knew what to look for, this would require making the equivalent of Stream Entry into required coursework for any neuroscience graduate course. That sounds like an awesome idea to me. I have been looking into their present entry requirements and the curricula, so no not at present at all likely to help us much at all. Would all be very peripheral for our purposes kinds of data at best for now. Unfortunate, but this is the current state of affairs. Better to look to the Quantum Physicists at this point. Neuroscience wouldn't much exist now except for that body of work and it's byproducts.

I don't feel that the medical community is at all useless and given the present arrangement of many other conditions I would expect anyone else, as I do, to consider this field of knowledge to be one of our most valuable today - as human beings. Any knowledge, art or science is valuable, all of these however should be viewed as two edged swords by the wise. To put psychological theorists into the mix and consider these people for a minute, I would say they don't appear to know the first things they would need to know to form adequate knowledge to speak to the realities of the circumstances. That said, this is why the 'sword' of modern day psychiatry is so heavily inclined to becoming an instrument of death in the hands of madmen. That is the short answer, somewhat metaphorically in those regards, throw in the widespread misconceptions of a self - quality(ies) and or property(ies) of any kind(s) and we have "hell on wheels", as such, fully manifest and coming right atcha baby!

Chris Marti:
I'd be interested in hearing about these other, more "out there" experiences of yours, if you feel comfortable sharing. Maybe on another topic?
No, I would prefer to keep to the few threads than set up many.

I can do a few minutes more and then I have to go, for a while, but if you want to continue why don't I simply add anything more on these questions and this story (Its funny, Matthew was chatting with me in the little chatbox there, never tried that, very cool, so in that chat I noted, how funny I thought it is, if the narratives are all toast, not important at all, why is this most all we put up to look at all the time? No offense intended, and I see many very useful and practical reasons of course... just also, seriously, funny...) on this post, if that is ok with you?

Ok, so for the moment, and if I have time later I will return to it tonight or tomorrow, ok? NO I HAVE NOT - asked to be forcibly confined, imprisoned and drugged into oblivion ever, but I have been, by either mental health care professionals, or else demons straight from hell, I'm not sure, one of those. None of that was ever my idea of 'how to deal with life or any living person' at all, ever, but for the moment, consider this;

'You are a child, the world for you has always been, not quite right. Considering this in such a light, as if you were a child 'born in the stream' (as someone who, 'for all practical intents and purposes' you may well someday be) as I appear to have been at that time, and you could easily see as you see "self" and "world" now, ('after stream entry' and whatever else you 'insight-fully perceive' and 'know' or 'cognize' now) and even your parents together with everyone else, sees only otherwise, (in other words - they see considerably less so, in these ways) only in those other "self-ly and worldly" ways - as you did before in this very life (prior to your present life's 'presumed' or indeed 'very real' 'stream entry').

This starts to 'get to you' (because none of it makes 'proper sense'- to you). So one day you do what only seems natural to you (samatha-vipassana), you look into the truth for yourself, within yourself, and (as any stream enter-er would, you do the work and in you go right? Except you have no clue what you are doing at this point and wham (8 Jhanas leads into Nirodha), the whole load of all of whatever this totally other view is (the Noble view or the 'accurate' and 'entirely objective perspectives') falls on you (fills your perceptions and conceptions completely), all in an hour in one afternoon. As if, instead of years of searching and meditation and toil, you simply do it, or attain all of this, effortlessly, all in about a half of or an hour, first time.

And then you know, whatever this is, this 'big splash', and it puts all of those other missing pieces that you felt but didn't know where to find together again and you have that whole picture of which you were only missing the missing center [that any and all of this is - either objective and objectify-able or it is not at all]. And you never did have any sense of a "self" or "a world" to begin with, like everyone else insists upon perceiving all of this 'as' and clinging to or invading or defending all of it 'as'.

As a child, no one could even explain what the "it" was, (the subjectively perceiving and perceptible individuated process of being and becoming aka-), the I, the me, the mine, the soul, the whatever, or why it was so important to everyone to begin with. But now you clearly see only that massive void (where any and all such mis-perceptions are expected to exist) and no such (in any other ways perceivable and or therefore conceivable) other thing(s).

With no other clue(s), whatsoever, what do you suppose you would think? With no guidance, with no teacher or teachings, and with no hope of any?

What then? You are still only a child, you have no independence or authority, you live in a world of souls and selves and satisfactions made only for all of that. What then happens then, to 'a child' such as 'this'?

Well, I can say, this (and then I will have to resume this some other time later) I had some difficulties... adjusting... to, to... any of the personal.... and social.... norms...

the above, first posted on 11/27/13 6:04 PM as a reply to Chris Marti
_______
the below, continues on 11/28/13

hello again everyone,

I'm back again. I have had my meal, spent some time in a common confidence and communion with my 'familiars', slept deeply and dreamlessly for a time, rested, and I am ready to return with a renewed energy and attention.

Before I resume this 'open and ongoing' 'investigation' into my particular 'case history' or any other such, I would like to add some more generalized notes about the 'nature of' and overall 'orientation of' the more 'generalized study' and any more 'specific focus' of these 'samsaric studies', which I hope we will all be able to learn from, here in the tripleops thread.

Ok.

I would like to make some very general comments about 'studies of samsara' and within this very broad field(s) the more specific area involved with 'developmental models of enlightenment'.

Wherever or whatever might occupy my attention(s), I find it generally very useful, to more carefully define the context of this functioning and become more fully cognizant and aware of:

- what and in what ways the attention is being applied.

- what and in what ways this brings more overall understanding to the field(s) in question, and the related forms and functions, qualities and properties, presently under investigation or review.

So, with these aims and purposes in mind then:

I will now attempt to add some additional comments about how I and I hope all others entering into these 'samsaric studies' together here in the tripleops thread might often proceed with this work; I, we, us - all together and working as a team towards achieving our common goals and purposes.

In the context of our times today, I think and feel it is most appropriate to work at this as Daniel and Kenneth most often appear to be doing.

Which is to say:

- as rationally and reasonably as might be possible,
and
- as much as can be done so, in accordance with the forms and functions of - the recently past and present day scientific models and modalities.

This much said then, I would like to make a very general statement about the vast body of work, or the considerable contributions Daniel and Kenneth, and all others alone or collectively have made, to just such studies, to date.

All together this is a considerable body of work. If viewed as 'a whole' it is very recent and ground breaking work, difficult as such, and it represents, as a whole, a considerable body of knowledge, regarding a great many things, with respect to or regarding, "things hidden since the foundations of this, the, our world."

So I, for one, hold all of this, beyond the seminal contribution of the Buddha, and those who have proceeded in much the same or similar ways, based upon his work, in the highest possible regard and esteem, and accord all of this together, the greatest possible respect(s).

However, given the size, scales and complexities of 'samsara' and related 'studies':

I do not expect such work, essentially - explaining the entire universe in whole and in part - to ever be complete, completed or completable. Given even what we may assemble, know and consider about all of 'this and that' now.

I will continue to add to this, interjectory note; however this much has been prepared and is ready to present now.

To which I will add, that I have enough space in preceding posts to refine and expand on my case history with a more 'Classically Oriented Theraveda Context' already.

This post will do so using primarily 'Psychological Model(s) or any Psychological or Psychiatric Model or Modalities', so now is the time, and or this is the place, to ask such questions and deal with such concerns and I am willing to continue to do so, in various ways, in this post, now and ongoing, in response to other posts, chat-box questions, PMs or emails, as I can today, ongoing as I can, and for so long as seems merited for all so concerned.

Ok? Good. If nothing else occupies, and nothing else draws me away, I will work on this note and return to the above and any of the following narrative case history throughout today, when and as I can.

I welcome Matthew, Chris and others already involved in this here, or who wish to be so, productively and with as much civility as is possible, to do likewise, now and in the future.

So then, on to it. If I am not elsewhere otherwise occupied, I will be writing or posting for a time(s) today.

I may lapse from this at points as presently I am experiencing some, - what might be described as - 'psychedilic fallout' which resembles 'visually impairing epileptic symptoms'. Ususally doesn't persist so don't be concerned, it represents 'no threat' but it makes it very difficult to read or write.


With respect to the Psychological Models and Modalities:

I have been a subject of, subject to, servant of or slave of these psychological or psychiatric models and modalities for some 35 years (as opposed to a ruler over, government of, or a governor of) these same models and modalities.

[So while others have been ideological theorists, or ideological totalitarians I have been merely subject to these, related and similar, 'Machinery and Machinations'.] As such I do not occupy the specific position of, or the accompanying views of or opinions of any Psychology or Psychiatric Regime. Rather, I occupy the specific position of its subjects or objects or data or datums, which is to say I am not even its instruments, but rather the materials with which it is concerned.

So as with a butcher, I am not the butcher or his knives per se, but rather, I am the meat. In these and all such similar regards and respects.

With this in mind I began my study of these Provinces and Principalities, Powers and Dominions, at about the age of 14 as it became clear, that these would soon be 'exerting considerable such power and dominion over my life', and did, and has to a considerable extent, in many ways, since.

I can contribute more detail and context to this kind of a more general interpretation and understanding of my case history now, today and ongoing in this post, in a more narrative form, and in a more general way, and then take up any related questions with all effort towards increasing detail and precision in an effort to improve my/our overall understanding by these means.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/28/13 3:09 PM as a reply to triple think.
Post 40 tripleops

now occupied by - triplethink - for reading at present and for future use in better organized versions of posts 39-40

re: Psychological and Psychiatric Models

hi Chris
Chris Marti:
Thank you, Nathan, for all your heavy listing in reply to my questions. Of course, I have a few more :-)
No problem, been waiting a long time for others with similar interests to take an interest as well. Very happy to do so.
Chris Marti:
1. It appears from what you write that you have never, from birth I assume, had a central "I/me/mine" perceptive or cognitive framework. Is that right? Did I misunderstand?
This is my perception/conception of the circumstances, to my knowledge.
Chris Marti:
2. If this is true, can you describe at least briefly how it is that you came to realize that the virtual entirety of the human race walks around all day, every day, with a central egoistic orientation to the world? What was it like to try to figure out how that worked as opposed to what you knew? It seems that would be a rather striking revelation, to say the least.
I am being brief so expect more detail as we go, later on today. Very scary, very interesting, very peculiar, very alien, very a lot of things compared to the given norms or (considering this is a two way complex arrangement of interrelationships) to whatever it might have been perceived to be like, given that it was taken as a given that I was/am the same.
Chris Marti:
Your framework, until you were a teenager, appears to have been as a "not-self" oriented being. It strikes me as, again, more than fascinating, that such a human being would be able to relate to the rest of humanity without some pretty serious difficulties, and the possibility of being diagnosed with mental illness or worse, as you have inferred several times now. I'm wondering what that realization, which is interestingly the OPPOSITE of what the rest of us have experienced (the realization that there is no findable "I/me/mine" as opposed to the realization that others indeed HAVE an "I/me/mine") as an operational base.
It is not an inference it is now historical fact. It is not an opposite realization, it is a continuation of the same realization and all that this entails under the same overall conditions. In this sense not so different from anyone else with the same modes of operation.

Chris Marti:
Do you see what I'm getting at? Your experience is in some ways the mirror of what we all have strived to do.
Not for anyone else who has accomplished what others have indicated they have so done, unless I have been taking all of that the wrong ways somehow, and for some time. It is by no means the end of the story to see the whole of samsara like this, it is then a question, as I took up with Matthew last night of, "so now what?" The machinery of desire, or of being or becoming does not just stop when you see it for what it is. It still functions and this presents a whole much more volitional set of concerns. A 'what do I do now?' set of concerns.

Think of the self as like a bad marriage that has lasted despite all of the difficulties. Later, after 5 children and two careers are well along there is a divorce and a split. The paradigm did not work, the same and new problems continue to be as real if not more real and much more serious. As they say, "marriage does not get serious until it is over".

I am more 'clear' on this than some people here, but I think it becomes obvious if not in this body/mind, it most definitely will in another somehow somewhere until the machinery of desire concludes its processes in all manifest or potentially manifestable ways. So the metaphorical "fires of passion" are much more perceptible as very real and affective and effective fires. Sometimes very obviously "fires".

I jumped back in to add this, because this might make it more clear. The 'worldling' sees lets say, like the conventional scientist or physicist does, 5% of the universe, the other 95% is a mystery. The stream enter-er sees 10% of the universe, as he sees, just as the scientist does how this is the same all the way in, as it is all the way out and on that basis s/he proceeds. The once returner has the volition to address and does address another say 30% of the universe more actively cognizing it by dealing with half of the affective/effective processes involved and attenuating these to zero input and output, effectively negating that much of the overall 'machinery of being and becoming so now 40% is seen and known and understood - as 'such' the non-returner deals with another 30% and now all the remains is the most obscure and subtle of involvements between all the way in and all the way out of the whole thing, so the anagami has only the most obscured and subtle concerns to 'attend to', when this is done, the ongoing viability of the entire inflowing and outflowing of form and function, quality and property is fully negated and the arahant sees the entirety of all of this 100% and knows how to shut it all off and is "done" has "lived the holy life", figured it all out, mastered it all and may, for 'his or her' part give all of it up at any moment.


Gotta go for now.

I have to take off for 3-4 hours at this point. approx. 10 am mst
I will be back at this later this afternoon and continue with whatever I can here at that point through the rest of the afternoon evening and whenever I, (this animal/machine) needs to power down again. Sometimes it shuts off easy sometimes it just goes on for days. I'll need to break at points but I want to add as much as I can to the presentation I am putting up in triplethunk - ask triplethink at, I think, post 95 or so. Also I will work on this psycho-dramatization stuff and those questions and whatever else is 'in my bowl' at these times. Ok? so if possible add any more thoughts on either the Classical Theravada Model, Developmental Model, and the PsychoDramatic or whatever it is model, on this post of yours here and I will take all of this that and the next thing up again at that point, ok?

If there is new stuff to consider or any related fallout from old stuff I've already dived into, wherever, it would be good to know how you or others are thinking/feeling about whatever I might have already said. That would be great, for my part today.

Thanks
nathan

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/28/13 10:30 AM as a reply to triple think.
Thank you, Nathan, for all your heavy listing in reply to my questions. Of course, I have a few more :-)

1. It appears from what you write that you have never, from birth I assume, had a central "I/me/mine" perceptive or cognitive framework. Is that right? Did I misunderstand?

2. If this is true, can you describe at least briefly how it is that you came to realize that the virtual entirety of the human race walks around all day, every day, with a central egoistic orientation to the world? What was it like to try to figure out how that worked as opposed to what you knew? It seems that would be a rather striking revelation, to say the least.

Your framework, unlit you were a teenager, appears to have been as a "not-self" oriented being. It strikes me as, again, more than fascinating, that such a human being would be able to relate to the rest of humanity without some pretty serious difficulties, and the possibility of being diagnosed with mental illness or worse, as you have inferred several times now. I'm wondering what that realization, which is interestingly the OPPOSITE of what the rest of us have experienced (the realization that there is no findable "I/me/mine" as opposed to the realization that others indeed HAVE an "I/me/mine") as an operational base.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Your experience is in some ways the mirror of what we all have strived to do.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/30/13 2:48 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
tripleops re: triplethink on 11/30/2013 - POST 42.2 - Life, the U and Everything/All & It

SUMMARY

So 11/15/13 8:26 PM To Date:

been meaning to ask?
ask.

Balanced and Totaled to Date on this I/Me/Coal Mine Subjective/ly.

Add
Saying go with brighter stars above or below today.
Thx for you patience, that was a lot of ketchup work.
Done with Venus & Mars from this end, thx.

Hopefully done and doner, threads totaled on the nature of I and Thou.
Thx & Welcome In and Out to R University in the Stars.

3b.

Here's the best guess on It's path & position with rest at present.

Re: ops studies. -me from the -thodology, unless more concerns to report from U 's, etc..

status report
smoke & embers, mirrors & void
nested bubbles out from mote
primary flow polarization 0 to +; - min. yet active; any & all due cautions required, given conditional & temporal status/
_______________
3 & 4 U 's? over 2 U 's.

Big add for checking and error correction via any fully retired U 's.

Otherwise done and over so far, until next Sat.for sure. This S-IT is taking the whole week off. Tempo-Retired.
__________________________________________________________________________
As Such PM where appropriate. Would prefer more sensitive internal inquiry to shift to PM or email at this point.

Would appreciate exiting the microscopic spotlight if this is adequate Transparency and Sincerity.
Will continue to refine existing at radically less Energetic Tempo than observed Thus far.

Will continue the Saturday Practice generally; checking, grooming, tweaking and fine tuning of triple-whatever threads.
Will attempt fill in blanks and error corrections at a much more relaxed and cautious pace.
Consider yourselves otherwise sufficiently appraised and up to speed for now, ok?
disclaimers, etc..

pleasant remains,
upekkha
-3b
______________________________________________________________________



tripleops Post 42 -11/28/13 - triplethink

real estate flagged for future development


- would like to post the following above, to tired to bother for now.


Ok, this will take a bit of reshuffling, but this subject is probably not over yet so the Models and Narrative will be in the preceding virtual real estate together with all related questions and answers re: the psychological stuff will go in the above space which is all very mutable at this point.

So for now, any further questions and answers to follow will also be found previously, as additions to the following format.
Chris Marti:
1. It appears from what you write that you have never, from birth I assume, had a central "I/me/mine" perceptive or cognitive framework. Is that right?
That describes it well.
Chris Marti:
2. If this is true, can you describe at least briefly how it is that you came to realize that the virtual entirety of the human race walks around all day, every day, with a central egoistic orientation to the world?
Age 5-6.
Chris Marti:
What was it like to try to figure out how that worked as opposed to what you knew?
Kind of a no brain-er, even a five year old human bodhisatta would see it as obvious, ignorant and delusional. Jeeziz.
Chris Marti:
It seems that would be a rather striking revelation, to say the least.
Dawns more gently than some other stuff, I'd say, but gets worse as you go towards the high noon of it all. I feel/think I was killed before age 4 as a human child more than a few times, so that would be the more common exception.
Chris Marti:
Your framework, until you were a teenager, appears to have been as a "not-self" oriented being. It strikes me as, again, more than fascinating, that such a human being would be able to relate to the rest of humanity without some pretty serious difficulties, and the possibility of being diagnosed with mental illness or worse, as you have inferred several times now. I'm wondering what that realization, which is interestingly the OPPOSITE of what the rest of us have experienced (the realization that there is no findable "I/me/mine" as opposed to the realization that others indeed HAVE an "I/me/mine") as an operational base.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Your experience is in some ways the mirror of what we all have strived to do.
Ok, I started to speak to this elsewhere so when I get this edited I will have quite a lot to say about this but for now refer back to whatever I wrote about it already.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
11/30/13 3:32 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:

I think you are very cool. I am cool and a bit odd at times so that is probably cool except when it is just plain weird. 'We' are just plain 'that's so cool man', which is very cool with me.


Greetings Mr. Think !

I wonder why I didn't think that earlier.

Firstly, I'm actually male (as explained in the little box) ! I'm sorry to not make it clear from the start. I guess the anonym has a more feminine flavor than I anticipated.. or maybe this "it machine" just not being manly enough.

I don't really know about my health or what is going to happen to my body except that it feels much closer to stopping working at all than it does to being a new and perfectly healthy body. I've never cared for this body much, it is an excellent body but there is a lot about my mind that would be much more pleased to find that it didn't have one. I've accepted that and I do my best for this body now, but I feel the same way about this as I ever did. I have no doubt I would be more pleased to give up bodies altogether, than to have to wear another one again another time. So if wearing a body happens again for a mind, such as might result from the perceptions of previous mind anything like this one, (and this is how all of this has been moving along in this life) it would probably be even more ambivalent about doing so. Anyhow, don't fret about this body, I don't at all (apart from treating it like a car at the shop for repairs). For me it is more like dragging a heavy stone behind me everywhere I go and always has been. It is hard for any of us to give something that is also always a heavy burden its full and proper respect.

Let's just say that I'm fine and leave it at that. As I have said this ease has very few, if any, concerns about this body. I am going to continue attempting to behave with others as if I am perfectly well until this body doesn't work at all. That will be the best and the simplest way for all of us to think about that, for this mind and body. So please, set any concerns like that aside. This is what I do.


I certainly dont know why either of us are here or anything else to be honest. I have no idea what the complete picture looks like, and whatever understanding I have stems from selective understandings of the perceptions I've glimpsed so far. I wish that things go smoothly and whatever is left to be done is done. I shall try to remember this when my car gets wrecked or needs some repairs.

I have been looking forward to our conversation continuing; simply because, so far, for my part, it has been the most easygoing and pleasant one I am having here at DhO. So when it is time for you to move on, I will wish you well. For so long as you would like to continue to converse and discuss the Dhamma, the Neo-Dhamma or life in general, I will welcome it. Ok?


So have I, so do I.


That little project of fixing the code is, so far, like the most difficult conversation (and with no one else involved in it at all yet) I am having (mostly with the kinds of people who read a lot more than they ever communicate by speech). I'm going to keep that on one or two posts of one or two threads for as long as I can continue to make changes to or add to one post. For now I suspect that little project doesn't even make a lot of clear sense to anyone else at all.

I need to contact Daniel or Carol and find out how long I can continue to do that. It would be great if I can simply continue adding to old posts instead of adding new posts to threads that otherwise could go on for many many posts in terms of what other people are doing there. (Threads are like various rooms in a big building, any number of people can do any number of the same or different things, in any given room.)


I'm not going to pretend that I understand much of it or I try to. However, I do wish the endeavor doesn't go futile. Maybe when a more complete picture starts to appear things will become more clear.

I think (so far as this has been since my return and involvement again) it already seems to me, it would be simpler, if for as long as I can add to or clarify old posts, it will keep everything simpler, for me. This would help to keep the threads I am involved in regularly to a minimum, and it will be easier for everyone if I can continue to add to past posts that are already taking up space. It only becomes more difficult to follow many different conversations otherwise especially when many conversations and various different conversations are going on involving many different writers and many different voices.

Hummmmmmmmmm.


I speak and use words in many different ways depending on the listener(s). Another aspect of this is that it can become confusing for others when I speak to some question two or three or more different ways. So if the question has already been asked one or two other ways it would be better to put all of the answers in one post and show more clearly where these are different answers to the same question or something similar to that. This way others will see that I am answering one question in three (or more) ways or can look at the subject in three or more ways or whatever.

You relate to the listener where they are at. That's what's unique about you. I like that.


I opted from the start to try to limit the threads I have started so that people can get a sense of 'my voice(s)' and how that differs from many of the normal kinds of 'voices' that people might generally adopt when they write. My voice can appear schizophrenic when discussion is linear because of one mind and writing voice considering and speaking to one subject (or whatever) in many ways. If all of the various kinds of responses can be placed together in relation to the same or a similar topic or theme it won't look like that nearly so much anymore. Also, with having one voice with many tones and timbres always coming from the same place it will sound much differently than when similar sounds pop up all over the place like bird sounds in a forest might do.

I guess this is where the part about containing multitudes comes in.

Also my points of views can be quite different from the general views with many things. In these ways, the differences can become more clear for others. This way people can either think, 'hmm, I prefer look at this in Mr. Thunks ways instead of the ways these or those others might do or the reverse or whatever. Also others can much more easily understand that often others are looking for a common voice (also for good reasons) when I am attempting to make clearer only one voice with many different qualities and so on. This way also they can simply count me out of a more commonly held view if there is any more obvious or important difference of some kind and so on.


The last few days have been rather cloudy in the head. It seems you have a great grip over the antics of the mind and you're really doing what needs to be done in a more efficient yet eccentric manner.


I'm doing that robot code job out in public so that in the long run maybe some people can have an idea how much work and time is involved in a project like that (as I am sure writing his book was and has been for someone like Daniel). In this case the task (sort of like translating a very old language into a very new language when, half of, it doesn't quite exist yet) and how long it takes to do this kind of task. It comes last in my priorities; after all of the other conversations, discussions, debates and other little projects that have already taken off for me here over a couple of weeks. It comes last after all of the other work and play for me here because I have the least hope for that kind of technical language serving most people as effectively and as well as any more every day language can. It could end up having much more precision and much better organization at some point closer to the other shore of that job and that is about all. I doubt I will ever write a book. I just like to whip up little ideas into some new confection of some kind. The I like to watch and see those kinds of novel conceptions or re-conceptions that I put together and tossed out into what I refer to as the general melt (the overall culture in any sense) get picked up by others who might never even guess where these notions popped up from, way back when. This has also been very, very instructive, for me, for a very long time.


I like the idea of the general melt. The biggest problem I've noticed with language is that it's just a bunch of symbols and it only points in certain directions. This is why, perhaps, you're using the symbols in as many ways as you can to show the travelers what you can show in ways directly perceivable to them. I'm not going to pretend to understand much of the code work. Consciousness studies is always good.

Phew, sorry to get so technical in the middle of our chat but the particulars in the nature of the person one is addressing and the way the questions are put has a lot to do with how clearly one can respond. Your voice is fresh and your interest open enough to make this very easy to explain here compared to when the conditions closer to the other end of the range. So, I may wander on with something longer than you would wish or may seem appropriate at times simply because others may well be listening to us converse as if we were sitting in a cafe or a park. So, my apologies again, for these little tangents to our immediate conversation, ok?


I'd prefer if you don't embarrass me by being so formal and apologetic about such basic stuff. I'm here to catch everything you can throw at me. I'm just surprised and a little flattered to know you find this humble, level zero, run of the mill it machine interesting. I think it has to do with what you suggested about making an effort to separate what I absolutely know as true from stuff that I absolutely dont know.. and it turns out there isn't much to put into the first category. The more I know the wider the horizons spread making that knowledge feel even smaller than before.


Nope, not at all, whatever we might notice, someone if not many others will have noticed it before us.


Was there ever, somewhere, a first (of its kind) or it's all in parallel ? Or is this the kind of question better left unanswered ?

Oh man! Now you have struck a note with me (like plucking a guitar string in my body/mind)(but not in any unpleasant way, only that I sure can hear it)!

Yeah, I don't sleep much and never did, often for the same or similar reasons (reasons to do with this body/mind). My father is 79 now and I am about thirty years younger. If I take a rough estimate of about 4 hours sleep per night (which is overly optimistic, about the amount of sleep) over 50 years vs. his 8 then my waking hours are almost the equal of his already! We are beginning to see things much more in the same ways now. This shows us how big of a factor time and experience actually are over one waking lifetime.


I've probably slept more than others of my bodily age. Especially much more than those born in less preferable conditions. Sometimes it's more pleasant to be asleep than to be awake. To not know anything at all than to know that there's so much to know. I like this quote from a movie called "Waking Life" : Most people are either sleep walking through their waking life or wake walking through their sleeping life. Either way they're not getting much out of it.

One more while I'm at it : They say that dreams are only real as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?

There's more where it came from : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243017/quotes

Some time ago I started a thread here complaining about dreams giving me more real itsy bitsy feelings than the waking life. It's more balanced now. Dreams do have their way of pulling my socks off while I'm asleep.. sometimes more.

I'm pleased to see that at least one person can see this, which is why I am so pleased to converse with you and I hope we can continue in this for a while. It will help with all of the conversations if people can see how I do relate as often as possible in plain language but that I am not at all distressed to try any other approach that also might work. I was very concerned before I returned that I would be speaking to a vacuum in these regards (merits, virtues, demerits, shortcomings), not because there aren't many people who can sense what you can or sense it even more strongly, but because this theme has been a bit of a hot potato around the DhO for various reasons.

I whole heartedly agree and the feelings are mutual. My guess is that as one pushes through ignorance then "one" automatically realizes what must be dropped in order to go further, and sometimes this takes a long time when someone is persistently holding onto certain things for various reasons. I like the parable expressed by Mr. Goenkaji at the end of his infamous Vipassana courses. It's like a child being presented with a delicious traditional Indian milk pudding, most lovingly prepared by his mother. The child refuses to eat the pudding because he cannot appreciate some of the garnishings and ingredients vital to the recipe. He feels they may be stones or some other inedible stuff and the mother is unable to reason with persistent toddler. So the mother, asks the Child to separate these things and eat the rest of the pudding realizing that eventually as the Child matures; he will understand why the other ingredients are vital, and that they have their own tastes, flavors and so on that must come together to complete the recipe.


This is very direct, which is another reason why I like how your writing voice sounds for me when I read you. Maybe more direct than most people would tolerate from me. So right away we can see how it helps simply to have someone else pick up on this and say this more directly as opposed to my simply offering it up in a more direct way to begin with.

I will slowly try to bring in more directness and clarity to any conversation, if I can, over time. More often than not if I begin that way more people are more likely to be very put off by my initial approach. Anything could as easily be put in a very direct but what then might well also appear as a very harsh way to some people.


I've felt from that start that honesty goes a long way. I've nothing to gain from validating or invalidating you, myself or anyone else. Truth is an axiom and is not subject to these mental impressions. What needs to be done needs to be done and there's no way sweet talking around it. When a child is sick and refuses to take the bitter medicine, then sometimes the mother/guardian must use force out of compassion for the child's own good.

This is something that, for all its secularity, does not change very much in a secular context. No matter what or how someone may say whatever they do say to you, they will be expecting a respectful response. This is usually the funniest when conversing with very secular minded people (and especially people who are very culturally unrefined themselves in one or another ways) who may like to think that they are past these kinds of issues. Especially when very often they haven't thought these issues through very far and maybe haven't even considered some of these sensitivities and difficulties as seriously as they could.
When you don't reflect the same way for long enough, then some steam is lost and maybe perception becomes more clear. Other than that, how ill fated of you to question the most refined members of society Mr Think !


As I've always been hinting, I'm not afraid to tackle this 'hot potato' if no one else will. We've heard the old saying, 'Fools rush in where Angels Fear to Tread?" I am just that sort of a fool. If there is something a saint would run away from talking about I will run right towards it because the last thing I want to be treated like it is as a saint.


This is why sometimes fools get done more than angels or saints. I assume they all have a place in the big picture.


Not much of anything is, I am sorry to say.

Perhaps we can only make the more compassionate choice as long as we feel we're making the choices. Ultimately subtle qualities of the mind are being cultivated which go a long way in the old haul. Back in time when I did consume meat, I noticed significant changes in my mind and body. There was a marked increase in craving, aversion, reaction, anger, greed. The only positive aspect was that my body mass significantly increased and it was much easier to build muscle back when I was still pumping iron and concerned with that kind of stuff.


This plucks a couple of other strings in my body/mind for sure. Food and bugs are subjects which, in a practical ways, start to look very different when you begin to see the many dimensions of what might be perceived about these interrelationships.

Very interesting areas of intellectual dwelling for me. Old orthodox me feels better to avoid gaining indirect knowledge of what is not yet directly seen to avoid speculation.

Just try to give balance to these perceptions because if it is not a misperception to begin with then it has a place in a more complete insight, knowledge and understanding which, as always, is more healthy if it includes many real or true or valid perceptions in an appropriate balance to what and how our conditions actually are arranged, at least at a given time and place.
Hmmm. Things kind of balance themselves out as more and more socks are removed.


Well, to be completely honest again, we can't really count on much of anything in samsara. This is simply its nature and it as true within us as it is without. So, we can expect changes all the time. But it is very helpful to understand our intentions, if we know these then we have a better sense of things regardless of the changes. My intention is to continue the conversations, especial with you for as long as this is generally wholesome and beneficial for all of us. So, again, I look forward to continuing our conversation for as long as you like. Much appreciation on this end as well.


In a less lazier time, I 'll combine all our talk in a single word file and keep it for reference later on when I need to look back.. as these threads have become a little exhaustive. I haven't been keeping up lately with all the stuff being posted around here.
My social camouflage has become rather demanding. All wholesome feelings are mutual.

In this part of Samsara I've rarely come across people who are so direct and so open. I find these moments less mundane, more exciting in general and always appreciate such encounters. Funny that we came here, in this little loka to amuse each other with this dubious form of communication in this moment. As you suggested, our path becomes more obvious as there's more to look at in the rear view mirror. There has been a higher force/intelligence protecting, guiding, showing and keeping safe distance away from the fires of the world. It does what needs to be done to ensure I do what needs to be done and avoid what needs to be avoided. As time passes by it's more obvious, more in plain sight, less subtle almost flirting with me.

One thing I was curious about.. I haven't been practicing much lately but I've been having those itchy sensations a lot lately, especially on the top of my head. It's been like this since I started. Sometimes when I'm motivated and go all in, it becomes so dandruffy that it's almost like snowfall when I rub my scalp. I've tried everything, including homeopathy but nothing really helps. An assistant teacher told me that this work feels stressful until upekkha is fully established and from there things are chilled out.

Yours truly, as far as reasonable,

Mr. N

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/4/13 3:53 PM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
> - new - triplethink - X 3

Sorry 'bout the volume. I realize I write long posts but I don't insert, again, as many code breaks. Better to quote a part of a longer text in general than break it up too much. This could make a good general announcement probably, feel free to shout back;

Cool to the Mr. Know, Dude. Exemplary stuff.

Ok, Brainstroke!

First off - there is way too much fraking code in this post to handle. Every time I hit send, half of my code repairs vanish.
So, smaller bytes, ok?

Lets not tip the bowl back and shove the whole thing bowl and all down my throat ok? I'm very so sorry about the gender gaff and I have addressed that in all posts where that could have been a concern so we should again be 'very cool'
ok?


For the purposes of this post;
your U (Mr. No) will be in regular size regular bold


this U<IT>U will be (3bird) will be in regular size regular type

quote fragments will be unmarked but assumed to be so unless marked as new mr. No or new 3bird.

>quote - triple think
I think you are very cool. I am cool and a bit odd at times so that is probably cool except when it is just plain weird. 'We' are just plain 'that's so cool man', which is very cool with me.

>new - 3bird
Also, finally saw daylight from the bottom of the snow cone and can stay indoors for the rest of, foreseeably, today, thx be unto Pajapatti!!!!!!! or who the freak ever! So freakishly fridgedly precipitatingly triple green chilli vanilli Corbin Dallas! Coooooooold outside.
And from now on;

If you keep the quotes to a line or two and the post # <---> I will shift any Ms. Nothing addresses to Mr. No. Or even Dr. No, if you want.

Deal?


>quote - mr. No

Firstly, I'm actually male (as explained in the little box) ! I'm sorry to not make it clear from the start. I guess the anonym has a more feminine flavor than I anticipated.. or maybe this "it machine" just not being manly enough.

>new - triple think
Well, three things, the inclusion of "Sweet Nothings, NS at one point" did throw me into questioning gender, to no avail I see now! In the online space/time ID as well as gender is nebulous at best and lastly I don't assume at all 'as sum' such may become otherwise, I was plainly mistaken. Also now I understand the gender comment in the Chat Box was a first person reference and not a second person online, so there is only One in U of "S. N.", not 2U's, so thx for clearing that up. I will go back through and amend to Mr.. My ass-pologies! Yikes. Cut/Paste/Cut/Paste...

Also I still haven't looked into my files re: Akasagarbha & Ksitigarbha the two Bodhisatta I mentioned in the chatbox. But toss 'em into the Googler web or it's image web and these ancients will arise as majic as majic can be.

I don't know that Sweet or Nothing indicates any gender either as sukkha is many things, neither does nothing - dependent on conditionality, etc..

> - quote - 3bird
I don't really know about my health or what is going to happen to my body except... .

...please, set any concerns like that aside. This is what I do.

> - new - 3bird

Yeah, I am obviously male on sight however I have been largely genderless and have to project that energy for the effect, I'm not saying there aren't women that can get that sort of affect/effect from me with effort but I have neither sought it nor used that effect/affect much with females or males beyond a minimal comfort level for others for maybe a dozen years now and have not troubled this IT machine about any of that beyond tests I run with images to note affect/effect. The gear all works very well, women are impressed, men are intimidated, yadayadayada. I simply don't give a fig beyond what might be needed in a moment, I have more interesting things to do.

For instance lately I have been honing com-skills on the interwebz, hows the output, I have more or less "mixed reviews" from all accounts so far. Samsara is merely, after all, only, a four way, 16 lane, 256 Level Mega-Highway System. & Now also online.

> - quote - Mr. No
I certainly don't know why either of us are here or anything else to be honest.


> - 3bird - interjects - Who does? Divine Nectar Drinkers in Tavattsima?

>quote - mr. No
I have no idea what the complete picture looks like, and whatever understanding I have stems from selective understandings of the perceptions I've glimpsed so far. I wish that things go smoothly and whatever is left to be done is done. I shall try to remember this when my car gets wrecked or needs some repairs.


>quote - 3bird
I have been looking forward to our conversation continuing; simply because, so far, for my part, it has been the most easygoing and pleasant one I am having here at DhO. So when it is time for you to move on, I will wish you well. For so long as you would like to continue to converse and discuss the Dhamma, the Neo-Dhamma or life in general, I will welcome it. Ok?

>3bird - new comment

Also the color coding in tripleplay posts or elsewhere are more to indicate internal perception/sensation/cognition status than indicate emotional affect or effect, nothing implied only allusions, so if off, notify for course corrections.


>3bird has lost the thread on who owns this line, feel free to make a Claim to it No vs. mr.no ( rotflmao )

So have I, so do I. > ( likely? ) - Mr. No

> - quote - 3bird
I speak and use words in many different ways depending on the listener(s). Another aspect of this is that it can become confusing for others when I speak to some question two or three or more different ways. So if the question has already been asked one or two other ways it would be better to put all of the answers in one post and show more clearly where these are different answers to the same question or something similar to that. This way others will see that I am answering one question in three (or more) ways or can look at the subject in three or more ways or whatever.

> - quote - Mr. No

You relate to the listener where they are at. That's what's unique about you. I like that.

> - new - 3bird -
Unique? Not hereabouts, I don't think so at all. I am perhaps, at least, "unique"; relate to "where they are at", no, not so much, for either party.

I can readily enough observe how other U's don't relate easily to this U.

The onus is on me then, to make up that distance, if there is to be beneficial multilateral communication at all, right?

> - quote - 3bird
I opted from the start to try to limit the threads I have started so that people can get a sense of 'my voice(s)' and how that differs from many of the normal kinds of 'voices' that people might generally adopt when they write.

My voice can appear 'schizophrenic' ( once a trendy psychobabble cop out ) or 'bi-polar' ( more recently popular and now remains a trendy psychobabble cop out ) when discussion is linear because of one mind and writing voice considering and speaking to one subject (or whatever) in many ways. Which can hardly be a disorder or dysfunction, if each mode makes it's own kind of reasonable statements.

If all of the various kinds of responses can be placed together in relation to the same or a similar topic or theme it won't look like that nearly so much anymore.

Also, with having one voice with many tones and timbres always coming from the same place it will sound much differently than when similar sounds pop up all over the place like bird sounds in a forest might do.

> - new - Mr. No ? or old > - quote - 3bird ?
I guess this is where the part about containing multitudes comes in.


> - quote 3bird
Also my points of views can be quite different from the general views with many things. In these ways, the differences can become more clear for others. This way people can either think, 'hmm, I prefer look at this in Mr. Thunks ways instead of the ways these or those others might do or the reverse or whatever. Also others can much more easily understand that often others are looking for a common voice (also for good reasons) when I am attempting to make clearer only one voice with many different qualities and so on.

This way also they can simply count me out of a more commonly held view if there is any more obvious or important difference of some kind and so on.

> - quote - Mr. No
The last few days have been rather cloudy in the head. It seems you have a great grip over the antics of the mind and you're really doing what needs to be done in a more efficient yet eccentric manner.


> - quote + amendments - triplethink - 12/04/13
I'm doing that Perfectly Free Robot Code job & building the Moral Nautical Compass stuff out in the full light of the public.

This is so that in the long run maybe some people can have an idea how much work and time is involved in a project like that (as I am sure writing his book was and has been for someone like Daniel).

On behalf of every other appreciative person here and no less so, this U, THANK YOU DANIEL, KENNETH, ET AL.


In this case the task is sort of like translating a very old language into a very new language ( when, half of, it doesn't quite exist yet ) and it takes a long time to do this kind of task.

It comes last in my priorities; after all of the other conversations, discussions, debates and other little projects that have already taken off for me here over a couple of weeks. It comes last after all of the other work and play for me here because I have the least hope for that kind of technical language serving most people as effectively and as well as any more every day language can.

It could end up having much more precision and much better organization at some point closer to the other shore of that job and that is about all. I doubt I will ever write a book.

I just like to whip up little ideas into some new confection of some kind. Then I like to watch and see those kinds of novel conceptions or re-conceptions that I put together and tossed out into what I refer to as the general melt (the overall culture in any sense) get picked up by others who might never even guess where these notions popped up from, way back when. This has also been very, very instructive, for me, for a very long time.


I like the idea of the general melt. The biggest problem I've noticed with language is that it's just a bunch of symbols and it only points in certain directions. This is why, perhaps, you're using the symbols in as many ways as you can to show the travelers what you can show in ways directly perceivable to them. I'm not going to pretend to understand much of the code work. Consciousness studies is always good.

Phew, sorry to get so technical in the middle of our chat but the particulars in the nature of the person one is addressing and the way the questions are put has a lot to do with how clearly one can respond. Your voice is fresh and your interest open enough to make this very easy to explain here compared to when the conditions closer to the other end of the range. So, I may wander on with something longer than you would wish or may seem appropriate at times simply because others may well be listening to us converse as if we were sitting in a cafe or a park. So, my apologies again, for these little tangents to our immediate conversation, ok?


I'd prefer if you don't embarrass me by being so formal and apologetic about such basic stuff. I'm here to catch everything you can throw at me. I'm just surprised and a little flattered to know you find this humble, level zero, run of the mill it machine interesting. I think it has to do with what you suggested about making an effort to separate what I absolutely know as true from stuff that I absolutely dont know.. and it turns out there isn't much to put into the first category. The more I know the wider the horizons spread making that knowledge feel even smaller than before.


Nope, not at all, whatever we might notice, someone if not many others will have noticed it before us.


Was there ever, somewhere, a first (of its kind) or it's all in parallel ? Or is this the kind of question better left unanswered ?


> - new - 3bird
No question lasts long at all if you keep looking for better questions. I've picked up some model kits now that I am working on models of kamma and of being and becoming.

One is the 1804 Steam Loco [108 plastic pcs.] Box quote - "Richard Trevithick was a young engineer who was responsible for one of the most important of all inventions - the first steam locomotive. In 1795 when he was only 25 years old." Next...

'What about if we include 'string theory....'


> - quoted - 3bird
Oh man! Now you have struck a note with me (like plucking a guitar string in my body/mind)(but not in any unpleasant way, only that I sure can hear it)!

Yeah, I don't sleep much and never did, often for the same or similar reasons (reasons to do with this body/mind). My father is 79 now and I am about thirty years younger. If I take a rough estimate of about 4 hours sleep per night (which is overly optimistic, about the amount of sleep) over 50 years vs. his 8 then my waking hours are almost the equal of his already! We are beginning to see things much more in the same ways now. This shows us how big of a factor time and experience actually are over one waking lifetime.


I've probably slept more than others of my bodily age. Especially much more than those born in less preferable conditions. Sometimes it's more pleasant to be asleep than to be awake. To not know anything at all than to know that there's so much to know. I like this quote from a movie called "Waking Life" : Most people are either sleep walking through their waking life or wake walking through their sleeping life. Either way they're not getting much out of it.

One more while I'm at it : They say that dreams are only real as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?

There's more where it came from : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243017/quotes


> - Would U expect that to be a certain bet? I 'liked' that movie.

> - quote - Mr. No
Some time ago I started a thread here complaining about dreams giving me more real itsy bitsy feelings than the waking life. It's more balanced now. Dreams do have their way of pulling my socks off while I'm asleep.. sometimes more.


> - Neu/Neo - 3bird
You are quite, by way of comparison, young, correct? If so much is all still new by default. Attentiveness focusing, and always in as relaxed a state as possible helps a lot, don't take it so serious but you have the organic basis to stay on top of things. It will not be easier as you go as far as energy stamina, etc, etc.. It is not so important what you give attention to if you give full attention. So long as it is not a harmful or non-beneficial practice but no one explains to the young any more that this is a race against yourself. You have to make the yardage when you are young, when you get older time will f___ with you and you will NOT BE ABLE to do what you can easily do now and then you will be TOTALLY F___KED. That locker room enough for you?


Well, to be completely honest again, we can't really count on much of anything in samsara. This is simply its nature and it as true within us as it is without. So, we can expect changes all the time. But it is very helpful to understand our intentions, if we know these then we have a better sense of things regardless of the changes. My intention is to continue the conversations, especial with you for as long as this is generally wholesome and beneficial for all of us. So, again, I look forward to continuing our conversation for as long as you like. Much appreciation on this end as well.

> -quote - Mr. No
In a less lazier time, I 'll combine all our talk in a single word file and keep it for reference later on when I need to look back.. as these threads have become a little exhaustive. I haven't been keeping up lately with all the stuff being posted around here.
My social camouflage has become rather demanding. All wholesome feelings are mutual.


> - new 3bird -
Go for it, just send me back bits and bytes at a time, puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.

> -quote - triplethink
I don't really know about my health or what is going to happen to my body except that it feels much closer to stopping working at all than it does to being a new and perfectly healthy body. I've never cared for this body much, it is an excellent body but there is a lot about my mind that would be much more pleased to find that it didn't have one. I've accepted that and I do my best for this body now, but I feel the same way about this as I ever did. I have no doubt I would be more pleased to give up bodies altogether, than to have to wear another one again another time. So if wearing a body happens again for a mind, such as might result from the perceptions of previous mind anything like this one, (and this is how all of this has been moving along in this life) it would probably be even more ambivalent about doing so. Anyhow, don't fret about this body, I don't at all (apart from treating it like a car at the shop for repairs). For me it is more like dragging a heavy stone behind me everywhere I go and always has been. It is hard for any of us to give something that is also always a heavy burden its full and proper respect.

Let's just say that I'm fine and leave it at that. As I have said this ease has very few, if any, concerns about this body. I am going to continue attempting to behave with others as if I am perfectly well until this body doesn't work at all. That will be the best and the simplest way for all of us to think about that, for this mind and body. So please, set any concerns like that aside. This is what I do.

I certainly don't know why either of us are here or anything else to be honest. I have no idea what the complete picture looks like, and whatever understanding I have stems from selective understandings of the perceptions I've glimpsed so far. I wish that things go smoothly and whatever is left to be done is done. I shall try to remember this when my car gets wrecked or needs some repairs.

I have been looking forward to our conversation continuing; simply because, so far, for my part, it has been the most easygoing and pleasant one I am having here at DhO. So when it is time for you to move on, I will wish you well. For so long as you would like to continue to converse and discuss the Dhamma, the Neo-Dhamma or life in general, I will welcome it. Ok?


> -quote - Mr. No
So have I, so do I.

I'm not going to pretend that I understand much of it or I try to. However, I do wish the endeavor doesn't go futile. Maybe when a more complete picture starts to appear things will become more clear.

I think (so far as this has been since my return and involvement again) it already seems to me, it would be simpler, if for as long as I can add to or clarify old posts, it will keep everything simpler, for me. This would help to keep the threads I am involved in regularly to a minimum, and it will be easier for everyone if I can continue to add to past posts that are already taking up space. It only becomes more difficult to follow many different conversations otherwise especially when many conversations and various different conversations are going on involving many different writers and many different voices.

Hummmmmmmmmm.


I speak and use words in many different ways depending on the listener(s). Another aspect of this is that it can become confusing for others when I speak to some question two or three or more different ways. So if the question has already been asked one or two other ways it would be better to put all of the answers in one post and show more clearly where these are different answers to the same question or something similar to that. This way others will see that I am answering one question in three (or more) ways or can look at the subject in three or more ways or whatever.

You relate to the listener where they are at. That's what's unique about you. I like that.


I opted from the start to try to limit the threads I have started so that people can get a sense of 'my voice(s)' and how that differs from many of the normal kinds of 'voices' that people might generally adopt when they write. My voice can appear schizophrenic when discussion is linear because of one mind and writing voice considering and speaking to one subject (or whatever) in many ways. If all of the various kinds of responses can be placed together in relation to the same or a similar topic or theme it won't look like that nearly so much anymore. Also, with having one voice with many tones and timbres always coming from the same place it will sound much differently than when similar sounds pop up all over the place like bird sounds in a forest might do.

I guess this is where the part about containing multitudes comes in.

Also my points of views can be quite different from the general views with many things. In these ways, the differences can become more clear for others. This way people can either think, 'hmm, I prefer look at this in Mr. Thunks ways instead of the ways these or those others might do or the reverse or whatever. Also others can much more easily understand that often others are looking for a common voice (also for good reasons) when I am attempting to make clearer only one voice with many different qualities and so on. This way also they can simply count me out of a more commonly held view if there is any more obvious or important difference of some kind and so on.


> -quote - Mr. No
The last few days have been rather cloudy in the head. It seems you have a great grip over the antics of the mind and you're really doing what needs to be done in a more efficient yet eccentric manner.


I like the idea of the general melt. The biggest problem I've noticed with language is that it's just a bunch of symbols and it only points in certain directions. This is why, perhaps, you're using the symbols in as many ways as you can to show the travelers what you can show in ways directly perceivable to them. I'm not going to pretend to understand much of the code work. Consciousness studies is always good.


> - quote + amendments - triplethink
It's a question of what attracts the touch; eye, ear, nose, mouth, skin, mind, etc.. isn't it?

Phew, sorry to get so technical in the middle of our chat but the particulars in the nature of the person one is addressing and the way the questions are put has a lot to do with how clearly one can respond. Your voice is fresh and your interest open enough to make this very easy to explain here compared to when the conditions closer to the other end of the range. So, I may wander on with something longer than you would wish or may seem appropriate at times simply because others may well be listening to us converse as if we were sitting in a cafe or a park. So, my apologies again, for these little tangents to our immediate conversation, ok?


> - quote - Mr. No
I'd prefer if you don't embarrass me by being so formal and apologetic about such basic stuff. I'm here to catch everything you can throw at me. I'm just surprised and a little flattered to know you find this humble, level zero, run of the mill it machine interesting. I think it has to do with what you suggested about making an effort to separate what I absolutely know as true from stuff that I absolutely dont know.. and it turns out there isn't much to put into the first category. The more I know the wider the horizons spread making that knowledge feel even smaller than before.


quote + amendments - triplethink
Nope, not at all, whatever we might notice, someone if not many others will have noticed it before us.

Am I amp-ing up the testosterone levels and adding a hint of irascibility adequately yet?


Was there ever, somewhere, a first (of its kind) or it's all in parallel ? Or is this the kind of question better left unanswered ?

Oh man! Now you have struck a note with me (like plucking a guitar string in my body/mind)(but not in any unpleasant way, only that I sure can hear it)!

Yeah, I don't sleep much and never did, often for the same or similar reasons (reasons to do with this body/mind). My father is 79 now and I am about thirty years younger. If I take a rough estimate of about 4 hours sleep per night (which is overly optimistic, about the amount of sleep) over 50 years vs. his 8 then my waking hours are almost the equal of his already! We are beginning to see things much more in the same ways now. This shows us how big of a factor time and experience actually are over one waking lifetime.


I've probably slept more than others of my bodily age. Especially much more than those born in less preferable conditions. Sometimes it's more pleasant to be asleep than to be awake. To not know anything at all than to know that there's so much to know. I like this quote from a movie called "Waking Life" : Most people are either sleep walking through their waking life or wake walking through their sleeping life. Either way they're not getting much out of it.

One more while I'm at it : They say that dreams are only real as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?

There's more where it came from : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243017/quotes

Some time ago I started a thread here complaining about dreams giving me more real itsy bitsy feelings than the waking life. It's more balanced now. Dreams do have their way of pulling my socks off while I'm asleep.. sometimes more.

I'm pleased to see that at least one person can see this, which is why I am so pleased to converse with you and I hope we can continue in this for a while. It will help with all of the conversations if people can see how I do relate as often as possible in plain language but that I am not at all distressed to try any other approach that also might work. I was very concerned before I returned that I would be speaking to a vacuum in these regards (merits, virtues, demerits, shortcomings), not because there aren't many people who can sense what you can or sense it even more strongly, but because this theme has been a bit of a hot potato around the DhO for various reasons.

I whole heartedly agree and the feelings are mutual. My guess is that as one pushes through ignorance then "one" automatically realizes what must be dropped in order to go further, and sometimes this takes a long time when someone is persistently holding onto certain things for various reasons. I like the parable expressed by Mr. Goenkaji at the end of his infamous Vipassana courses. It's like a child being presented with a delicious traditional Indian milk pudding, most lovingly prepared by his mother. The child refuses to eat the pudding because he cannot appreciate some of the garnishings and ingredients vital to the recipe. He feels they may be stones or some other inedible stuff and the mother is unable to reason with persistent toddler. So the mother, asks the Child to separate these things and eat the rest of the pudding realizing that eventually as the Child matures; he will understand why the other ingredients are vital, and that they have their own tastes, flavors and so on that must come together to complete the recipe.


This is very direct, which is another reason why I like how your writing voice sounds for me when I read you. Maybe more direct than most people would tolerate from me. So right away we can see how it helps simply to have someone else pick up on this and say this more directly as opposed to my simply offering it up in a more direct way to begin with.

I will slowly try to bring in more directness and clarity to any conversation, if I can, over time. More often than not if I begin that way more people are more likely to be very put off by my initial approach. Anything could as easily be put in a very direct but what then might well also appear as a very harsh way to some people.


I've felt from that start that honesty goes a long way. I've nothing to gain from validating or invalidating you, myself or anyone else. Truth is an axiom and is not subject to these mental impressions. What needs to be done needs to be done and there's no way sweet talking around it. When a child is sick and refuses to take the bitter medicine, then sometimes the mother/guardian must use force out of compassion for the child's own good.

This is something that, for all its secularity, does not change very much in a secular context. No matter what or how someone may say whatever they do say to you, they will be expecting a respectful response. This is usually the funniest when conversing with very secular minded people (and especially people who are very culturally unrefined themselves in one or another ways) who may like to think that they are past these kinds of issues. Especially when very often they haven't thought these issues through very far and maybe haven't even considered some of these sensitivities and difficulties as seriously as they could.
When you don't reflect the same way for long enough, then some steam is lost and maybe perception becomes more clear. Other than that, how ill fated of you to question the most refined members of society Mr Think !


As I've always been hinting, I'm not afraid to tackle this 'hot potato' if no one else will. We've heard the old saying, 'Fools rush in where Angels Fear to Tread?" I am just that sort of a fool. If there is something a saint would run away from talking about I will run right towards it because the last thing I want to be treated like it is as a saint.


This is why sometimes fools get done more than angels or saints. I assume they all have a place in the big picture.


Not much of anything is, I am sorry to say.

Perhaps we can only make the more compassionate choice as long as we feel we're making the choices. Ultimately subtle qualities of the mind are being cultivated which go a long way in the old haul. Back in time when I did consume meat, I noticed significant changes in my mind and body. There was a marked increase in craving, aversion, reaction, anger, greed. The only positive aspect was that my body mass significantly increased and it was much easier to build muscle back when I was still pumping iron and concerned with that kind of stuff.


This plucks a couple of other strings in my body/mind for sure. Food and bugs are subjects which, in a practical ways, start to look very different when you begin to see the many dimensions of what might be perceived about these interrelationships.

Very interesting areas of intellectual dwelling for me. Old orthodox me feels better to avoid gaining indirect knowledge of what is not yet directly seen to avoid speculation.

Just try to give balance to these perceptions because if it is not a misperception to begin with then it has a place in a more complete insight, knowledge and understanding which, as always, is more healthy if it includes many real or true or valid perceptions in an appropriate balance to what and how our conditions actually are arranged, at least at a given time and place.

Hmmm. Things kind of balance themselves out as more and more socks are removed.


Well, to be completely honest again, we can't really count on much of anything in samsara. This is simply its nature and it as true within us as it is without. So, we can expect changes all the time. But it is very helpful to understand our intentions, if we know these then we have a better sense of things regardless of the changes. My intention is to continue the conversations, especial with you for as long as this is generally wholesome and beneficial for all of us. So, again, I look forward to continuing our conversation for as long as you like. Much appreciation on this end as well.


In a less lazier time, I 'll combine all our talk in a single word file and keep it for reference later on when I need to look back.. as these threads have become a little exhaustive. I haven't been keeping up lately with all the stuff being posted around here.

My social camouflage has become rather demanding. All wholesome feelings are mutual.

> - new - 3bird
Yeah, the 'social camouflage' has been a 44 year project for me, since, age 5, and a very steep uphill learning curve on a course that only gets steeper in a program that I will never get paid for in anything but spit and knuckles, I had braces in high school and ate a lot of blood...

In this part of Samsara I've rarely come across people who are so direct and so open.

> - new - 3bird -
Well, one moment please... profanity sensitive types please remove small children or click away. I don't either, so although I have nothing but tolerance for irritating and unpleasant beings from people to bugs if it isn't an issue or concern of U's F-them, right?

I find these moments less mundane, more exciting in general and always appreciate such encounters. Funny that we came here, in this little loka to amuse each other with this dubious form of communication in this moment. As you suggested, our path becomes more obvious as there's more to look at in the rear view mirror. There has been a higher force/intelligence protecting, guiding, showing and keeping safe distance away from the fires of the world. It does what needs to be done to ensure I do what needs to be done and avoid what needs to be avoided. As time passes by it's more obvious, more in plain sight, less subtle almost flirting with me.

> - new - 3bird -
Yes, we have to meet in the middle somewhere, somehow or else........ ...... .... .. . . . .

One thing I was curious about.. I haven't been practicing much lately but I've been having those itchy sensations a lot lately, especially on the top of my head. It's been like this since I started. Sometimes when I'm motivated and go all in, it becomes so dandruffy that it's almost like snowfall when I rub my scalp. I've tried everything, including homeopathy but nothing really helps. An assistant teacher told me that this work feels stressful until upekkha is fully established and from there things are chilled out.

Yours truly, as far as reasonable,

Mr. N - Sweet Nothing


> - new - 3bird
Itching as Objects of Meditation - Tips for Life, on and off the Mat

Cold water washing, less hot or cold in shower, soap that is very simple, no scents or exotic oils, such as found in soap making supply shops, goat milk base, maybe a couple other ingredients. When lying down, sitting standing or walking make a note of not scratching, make that a first step in practice, no touching and just note "itchy", do not touch ever and watch the sensations. It is a discipline.

Wicked Workout Dude!

whew, let's take a more 'measured' approach ongoing, agreed?
-triplethink

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/4/13 4:25 PM as a reply to triple think.
tripleops - Post 45 - 12/04/13 - triplethink

CLAIMING IT BABY!

"""""""""FOR """""""""DIGITAL"""''HINTERLAND"""""""EIGHTEENTH""""""BIRTHDAY """" PARTY"''INVITATION""""""""

So this will be short pants and sukkha.

Post it notes

Re: The interesting side note that I went onto the internet in 1986.

Lad writes letter to NASA, gets ID ACCESS CODE

Lad writes letter to NRC (National Research Council) of CANADA, gets ACCESS CODE

Lad contacts various still unknown to the public industrial sectors.

Lad locates one store in one city that can sell him one of the two 'Modems' that they have to hand.

Salesman says, "Huh, we never sold one of these, what is it?"

Lad states, "Modulator/Demodulator"

Lad locates immigrant from Hong Kong with the correct degrees in Electronic Engineering to configure IBM 8088 and Modem.

Lad is 2nd private citizen in the nation to "Log On", first citizen such ever who is not a CEO, CFO, et al.


So, anyone else here be celebrating an 18th Online Birthday Yet?

I'm old enough to Drive you there Baby!

FORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PANOPTICON

-triplethink

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/5/13 11:23 AM as a reply to triple think.
post 46 staked & diggin' it

_______________________________

Ok so tech talk re: this 'board' & my 'style's will be in post 45.

Now, after 2 Solid knights of sleep have taken me down and blurried me sufficient,

I can see straight enough to get organized somewhat better so that is the porpoise 'til the Satchatsansdeiowzzzzzz

In this post I am gonna tacko my shot at assesment on the 01234s

I still suspect it is clouded enough to be 0-0.5 iddhi-0-t
but
I also have good reason to go with up to 2.5 because on the Jacobb's Ladder Test I am = acceptor is >0 yet < infinity
as to
typical testing for Dhamma Eye I put it at 1-2.5

I go with this because

I see 'IT' + thereby KIN If 'n' When I so 'Desire' = 'Know' 'IT' 'ALL' !

and could at times be as the old man local has said appear "Smarter than God"

I prefer "smarter than God, when he was my age" in ALL Due = Humility. ,,, <<<__________ --- --- --- _____________________ .

So my best guess is 2.5 and on the fence

because as to saint-hoodzz on the block goes

I ,,, ... '''

May well bend over backwards to pick up 'your dirty laundry'

or

May yet be so moved as to

"kick your ass up and down both sides of the street"

So that is this U<ALL Know IT from this side of the street and will leave further comment re: U's>U to the rest of you and we can continue with other assessments as we go.

thx"90125" is probably a "YES" 1-2.5

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>3Bird> In + Out..................................= + not over = > IT ALL yet.

Calculus to date 12/05/13
_________________________________

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/5/13 12:03 PM as a reply to triple think.
:\
wat

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/5/13 2:09 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
1.5 update this date: to post 1.
______________
Adam . .:
:\
wat
if :\ =| then /=v + = Gold mining? Keep digging in this one hole ongoing and examine entire thread for ongoing mutation due to ongoing MAJOR WORK UUU'S HAVE EXISTING CLAIMS so stay in your staked and given work areas.

pls+thx

Standing By ++=>3Bird>..}''''''''''''''''''''''''''//?///////?.<?>/ ............................../


if the above wrk becomes tedious see:

tripleplay doxologies for r+r -=+ RRRRRRRRRzzzzzzzzzzz


r+r & RRr to 0's, 1's & to All ____________ ALL .

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/6/13 1:59 AM as a reply to triple think.
Hi nathan,

All good. To be honest, I really am experiencing a reducing urge to participate on these forums. I was simply going to say "carry on", but now that I'm typing an urge suddenly arose to ask you for your opinion. I have been finding this passage to be of inspiration of late.

[Anuruddha & Sariputta discuss meditation]

Anuruddha: “Brother Sariputta with the divine eye, which is clarified and supernormal, I am able to perceive a thousandfold world system. My energy is strong and inflexible; my remembrance is alert and unforgetful; my body is calmed and unexcited; my mind is collected and unified. Yet my mind is still not freed, without clinging, from the defiling taints (asava).”

Thereupon Sariputta replied: “When you think, brother Anuruddha, that with your divine eye you can perceive a thousandfold world system, that is self-conceit in you. When you think of your strenuous energy, your alert mindfulness, your calmed body and your concentrated mind, that is agitation in you. When you think that your mind is still not liberated from the cankers, that makes for scruples in you. It will be good if the revered Anuruddha would discard these three things, would not pay attention to them and would instead direct his mind towards the Deathless-element (Nibbana).”

Having heard Sariputta’s advice, Anuruddha again resorted to solitude and earnestly applied himself to the removal of those three obstructions within his mind (AN 3:128), more: Wheel 262, BPS.


And have been exploring ways to go about it.

One way is to see how there is a force or habitual movement of mind to move and at the same time create shapes and form for aspects of experience, like a sensation in the chest, a thought/s, an image, an object to desire, and object to avert from. It's like the field of experience is a one of these


and the mind moves and when it moves it gives shape and this at the same time creates some 'thing', that is purely mental and overlays the field of experience which would simply be a flat bed of nails without that movement. So I observe this movement to create and give shape to 'objects' of mind. And when this is done, they lose some aspect of their continuance, something about the looking at zaps the movement of momentum. And that bed of nails will exhibit sublter movements that don't give full shape to some 'thing'. Like a half 'object' that as soon as it arises sinks back down and the nail bed is flat again.

When doing this, I will recall the cessations of the senses (the infamous blip) although the middle of the blip , I really don't remember what it is like cos the whole harddrive shuts down for that blip. But for some reason just recalling how it was a moment of shutdown sort of inclines the mind away from those mental movements even more and thenthe mind stops, though it is not a shutdown of the senses. It is simply the mind not making 'objects'.

Does this make any sense? I thought I had a question, I really don't. I think I'm just going with the flow or rather there are fingers typing bythemslves on the keyboard and this interaction may trigger something useful for me, you or someone elese. Who knows? This practice has been makign it very obvious that those movements of mind are very habitual, and seem to come from some eternal pit of past habitual movements building upon eachother. And yet, it's so nice to incline away from it all.

Anwhoo,

I'm rambling, or rather my two fingered typing is rambling. This current baseline although seen as normal these days by myself, alccimatised, would perhaps be perceived as being on LSD by someone just borrowing it for a few moments.

Nick, there ya go.

A question just arose: How do you relate to the notion of 'inclining towards the deathless' in your own practice? PM me if this is too sensitive for public discussion.

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/6/13 2:34 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
______________________________________
tripleops Post 50 - triplethink 50 ( approx. 150 posts ) at 50 ( years of age ) in 3 ( weeks! ) - not bad for an old online fellah ( 18 years internet wise in the .edu, .etc. ways ) [ 06 / 12 / 13 ]

Nikolai .:
I'm rambling, or rather my two fingered typing is rambling. This current baseline although seen as normal these days by myself, alccimatised, would perhaps be perceived as being on LSD by someone just borrowing it for a few moments.

Nick, there ya go.

A question just arose: How do you relate to the notion of 'inclining towards the deathless' in your own practice? PM me if this is too sensitive for public discussion.
hi Nick,
Good ramble, for this thread any-who.

Yeah, I got a lot of comments like that before I studied what actors do more carefully, via the abundant source materials.

Now I think I can 'represent' more appropriately. If I understand correctly you are a teacher and have effectively been studying the same sort of skill sets in another way.

So, yeah, be-ing useful is work, and not always completely successful but we do what we can right?

I've had a rough road, so if anyone feels they are an arahant when they are actually a stream entrant or what have you then consider my story a "don't let this happen to you story" and make every effort to get to a solid 3 on the scale. That takes you to a 'very magical place' if my experience is representative of that. If I am, as seems more likely, a 2.5-3 then I don't have much work to do to be a 3, with some adjustment and should not have to do it in this realm in any case, so this then is more or less my last chance to put this all on the record for the benefit of others.

Yeah, I got a lot of "Hey Smiley" comments or "Does he ever come down" comments and so on, a lot of friction because of indefatigable joy and love pouring out of me a lot of the time. Also, focus was always close to 100 percent for me, so jhana is something I avoid because it pumps up the 'majic for me' big time.

So I keep the mix on the dry side, if possible. But I get a lot of psychic/psychedelic bleed through non-the-less, and I pick up on a lot that people in general miss.

Lets do an inclining towards the deathless thread Nick, if you are game, you begin and I will follow your lead on it.

For starters, I simply take the 'sign' after the 'blip' and off I go....

So that is whatever is perceived during the 'bliss wave' immediately after the blip. I like "Void Logos" for bliss wave.

Not sure why it appears, suspect that the 'body' 'witnesses' the absence of the 'consciously percipient mind'.

Thots?

Added:

In the first approach to Daniel I attempted to describe the sign to Daniel as sukkha and unchanging and mistook it for the void.

Since then I have only been able to come closer to agreement with him that it is not the Void but rather the bodies response to the Void.

So I would say the Logos, of the body, for me is as said, Pure Sukkha and Pure Permanence. The actual void, is.....

Who the heck could know? Game over?______________________________________________

thots?

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/7/13 1:17 PM as a reply to triple think.
Things did get a little mixed up. I will try to honor your request of limiting myself to bytes and bits. How about a fresh start?

The gender wasn't that much of an issue, sorry for all the trouble. I might still be female for all you know,you internet people !

Keeping it simple from hereon.

Mr Think :
You are quite, by way of comparison, young, correct? If so much is all still new by default. Attentiveness focusing, and always in as relaxed a state as possible helps a lot, don't take it so serious but you have the organic basis to stay on top of things. It will not be easier as you go as far as energy stamina, etc, etc.. It is not so important what you give attention to if you give full attention. So long as it is not a harmful or non-beneficial practice but no one explains to the young any more that this is a race against yourself. You have to make the yardage when you are young, when you get older time will f___ with you and you will NOT BE ABLE to do what you can easily do now and then you will be TOTALLY F___KED. That locker room enough for you?

Me: Comparatively, yes. I try to keep it easy and simple but curiosity has a way of overpowering. I am beginning to realize the consequences of the path I'm on.

Before I started in this life, I did not have even the slightest hint what I was getting into. Even if I was told how serious this whole thing is, I still would not have fathomed it's depth. It's literally me against me and you rightly say that sooner the better when it comes to these things. I suppose there is no way to know what's coming because what comes for one does not necessarily come for another in the same way, and whatever has passed is exactly how it was supposed to. I will heed your advice and try my best to relax and focus when the tides are calm and when the tides are rough. Nice one.

Mr Think :
..........Akasagarbha & Ksitigarbha........


Well produced mythology as far as I am concerned. I dont know much about Mahayana other than that I view it as a fusion of the traditional Indian spiritual system, the noble eightfold path, and whatever was happening in Tibet before Mahayana came in.

On and off the mat advice was particularly useful. I tried some slow walking meditation and it was relatively calming compared to the mat.

So on,

SN

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/7/13 2:19 PM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
Sweet Nothing:
1.Q. Things did get a little mixed up. I will try to honor your request of limiting myself to bytes and bits. How about a fresh start?

2.A. The gender wasn't that much of an issue, sorry for all the trouble. I might still be female for all you know,you internet people ! Keeping it simple from hereon.

3.Q. Mr Think :
You are quite, by way of comparison, young, correct?

If so much is all still new by default. Attentiveness focusing, and always in as relaxed a state as possible helps a lot, don't take it so serious but you have the organic basis to stay on top of things. It will not be easier as you go as far as energy stamina, etc, etc.. It is not so important what you give attention to if you give full attention. So long as it is not a harmful or non-beneficial practice but no one explains to the young any more that this is a race against yourself. You have to make the yardage when you are young, when you get older time will f___ with you and you will NOT BE ABLE to do what you can easily do now and then you will be TOTALLY F___KED. That locker room enough for you?


3. A. Yes. Me: Comparatively, yes. I try to keep it easy and simple but curiosity has a way of overpowering. I am beginning to realize the consequences of the path I'm on.

3. A+ Before I started in this life, I did not have even the slightest hint what I was getting into. Even if I was told how serious this whole thing is, I still would not have fathomed it's depth. It's literally me against me and you rightly say that sooner the better when it comes to these things. I suppose there is no way to know what's coming because what comes for one does not necessarily come for another in the same way, and whatever has passed is exactly how it was supposed to. I will heed your advice and try my best to relax and focus when the tides are calm and when the tides are rough. Nice one.

4. Q. Mr Think :
..........Akasagarbha & Ksitigarbha........


Well produced mythology as far as I am concerned. I don't know much about Mahayana other than that I view it as a fusion of the traditional Indian spiritual system, the noble eightfold path, and whatever was happening in Tibet before Mahayana came in.

3. A+ On and off the mat advice was particularly useful. I tried some slow walking meditation and it was relatively calming compared to the mat.

So on,

SN
=++Good Dr. KNow,
Keeping this Island Cruisin', steady, sweet, all ahead, full impulse speed.

Re: the 1A: ALL WAYS
Re: the 4Q's: Never underestimate the ancients Dr. Know, they have had their shit together for a long long long long time.

++===+>
-triplethinkops

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/8/13 2:22 AM as a reply to triple think.
________________________________________________________________
the below index and Rant posted to all active triplethink threads as of the above posted date:

Triplethink:
- for the moment, here is a supplementary index to triplethink threads throughout the DhO.
This list will be amended to the first post of any and all active triplethink initiated threads.

threads about triplethink

triplethunk: ask triplethink

tripleops - methodology

tripleplay

tripleslam - Welcome to the Arena

triplethink initiated threads

? = Atman ><?> Zoo Station<? = .Camp Concentration =>


KAMMA SURFER SUTTA - How to work to 0 - Outflow and Inflow

Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS => VOID STATION => the Deathless

Universal Scalar Bubble Nesting

SIT Tank - Tank Time - Tank Talk - Tank Tips

DOB - Dhamma Oceanic Bestiary

See Also:

Karmic view of war

______________________________________________________________________________________

A note about the ever slower-ness of computers and computer networks


It is a shame, but computers just get dumber. I could see it coming as the stuff got rolling but I have to admit I was disappointed at first.

I don't know if anyone else is old enough to remember this, but there was a time when transistors were "new" and we used tubes to do what transistors do now.

Anyways I was already into electronics (in grade 5, age 10) when the first silicon chip became available ( the 555 timer chip ).

I don't remember what I paid for it at radio shack but I had a bag full and I well understand what this technology is and is not.

I remember holding it in my hand at the time, kid that I was, bag full of marvel comics in the other hand ( circa. 1973 ) and I could "see it", see it all, all of this, that IS, right now. The 52 inch plasma screen that I am watching a re-run of an old SNL
Christmas Special on right now, the Mac Book Pro, the digital audio playing "George Winston's - December", the remote controls, the whole ninety-nine yards. I could see way back then, in an instant, what digital tech was/is capable of, and also I could just as easily see what it was/is not capable of. The net, the tech, all of it, right down to the laser temperature meter, all OBVIOUS.

It has it's uses, many uses, but it is not capable of bringing any human being even a hairs width closer to AWAKENING TO THEIR OWN NATURE.

Just saying, it does nothing for that. Not a thing.

AWAKENING
IS
A RETURN TO YOUR SENSES
AND
A RETURN TO SENSIBILITY

I highly recommend it, almost urge people to do it, but I won't ever push or insist or compel anyone to do or think or feel or imagine ANYTHING.

Right now I have state of the art computers. I have a direct Fibre Optic Line into the backbone of the Net.

My Computer has NEVER BEEN SLOWER.

Take note of this, it is worth knowing.

OK, RANT COMPLETED resume normal life...........

- triplethink

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/13/13 3:08 AM as a reply to triple think.
: Never underestimate the ancients Dr. Know, they have had their shit together for a long long long long time.


You're right, sir.

The problem is, I haven't got my shit together and I dont know what to make of anything other than to imagine, and false imagination leads one astray.

So, other than meditation practices which I find are similar among all ancient traditions, there is nothing more I can discern at this moment.

The way it appears to me, the noble eightfold path enfolds within it the essence of awakening. All other traditions that have focused on awakening, also encompass most of the eight limbs of the path and then go on to further elaborate into areas and practices which are not spoken of in the essential teaching.

The Buddha himself conveyed that the knowledge he attained from his full awakening is comparable to a forest and the knowledge that he passed on in this comparison, would be equivalent to some leaves of the forest. So even going by what he said, it seems he passed on only what was necessary for others to reach awakening.

If these two and all the other Bodhis are actually around, then my highest reverences to them. I share with them whatever merits I may have acquired and will acquire. To my logical, rational and ignorant mind the resolution to abstain from full awakening conditionally or unconditionally, and continue to burn over and over, does not seem appealing at all.

Probably, I just dont know enough and there is no other way than to know for myself, whenever that time comes.. as everything else is just spiritual fiction.

In lesser peril,

SN

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/13/13 5:51 AM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
Sweet Nothing:
: Never underestimate the ancients Dr. Know, they have had their shit together for a long long long long time.


You're right, sir.

[ 3bird - I wouldn't make assumptions about me either, right or wrong, simply take note of what appears noteworthy and continue examining and reviewing... the usual abc123ish stuff. Who knows where I'm coming from / going to? ]

The problem is, I haven't got my shit together and I don't know what to make of anything other than to imagine, and false imagination leads one astray.

So, other than meditation practices which I find are similar among all ancient traditions, there is nothing more I can discern at this moment.

[ For better or worse friend, we still have streets to cross, trials and trails. Going to have to brave the traffic, regardless. I take a 'risk assessment' and 'best practices' types of approaches. I have suffered some considerable trials and errors, innumerable blind alleys, many imponderable misjudgements, etc., etc.. You will too, no less so, in time, unless you loose at the 'Frogger' game before when. So I can save you some time... I hope...

Apparently the Buddha was focused more or less exclusively on this mega-puzzler for a great many sequential universes spans of time, so I would consider that kind of investment, significant, or at the least, worth looking into. Any other 'founders' among the 'ancients' with noteworthy and well noted accomplishments available for similar extensive review, with this kind of quality and quantity of presentation? I am Totally interested in any that come to mind for you... or anyone else. Seriously. ]

The way it appears to me, the noble eightfold path enfolds within it the essence of awakening. All other traditions that have focused on awakening, also encompass most of the eight limbs of the path and then go on to further elaborate into areas and practices which are not spoken of in the essential teaching.

The Buddha himself conveyed that the knowledge he attained from his full awakening is comparable to a forest and the knowledge that he passed on in this comparison, would be equivalent to some leaves of the forest. So even going by what he said, it seems he passed on only what was necessary for others to reach awakening.

If these two and all the other Bodhis are actually around, then my highest reverences to them. I share with them whatever merits I may have acquired and will acquire.

[ Sorry bud. Simply going to interject here and mention this tip. The Bodhi' don't need anything from our minor lights. Save your merits, every mote, until you are sure, absolutely sure that you have merits to burn... just saying, never know when you will be in a dark place and need a spark... ]

To my logical, rational and ignorant mind the resolution to abstain from full awakening conditionally or unconditionally, and continue to burn over and over, does not seem appealing at all.

[ It doesn't seem more appealing as you go forth, simply more... passionate... or perhaps... calm... and passionate... ]

Probably, I just don't know enough and there is no other way than to know for myself, whenever that time comes.. as everything else is just spiritual fiction.

[ Enjoy the Narratives as Such and as 'Narrow'. Take up the bullet points and note where and how the arrows landed, relative to the given targets. Best we can do. ]

In lesser peril,

[ Lucky you, I'm not sure if I'm making headway or slipping away... ]

SN
best of all the rest, have fun til your done,
triplethink

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/13/13 7:04 AM as a reply to triple think.
Are merits not multiplied by being shared ?

Any other 'founders' among the 'ancients' with noteworthy and well noted accomplishments available for similar extensive review, with this kind of quality and quantity of presentation? I am Totally interested in any that come to mind for you... or anyone else. Seriously.


I dont know of any other founder who has presented so extensively or whose works have spread and been preserved so widely.
However, in more recent times, there have been good teachers such as Swami Vivekananda and J. Krishnamurti.

Even today, there is a "Guru" called Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev. I find no discrepancies between what he says and what the Buddha taught. You can find his foundation's youtube channel here :

http://www.youtube.com/user/ishafoundation?feature=watch

The Yoga Sutras, which are the basis of Yogic philosophy, are entirely compatible with Buddhist thought with some minor exceptions.

There is this other guy called Mooji, who is also pretty sound.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Moojiji

You probably know of Deepak Chopra ..he has many videos on youtube. I feel he's got some good insight too.

When observing these references, it is necessary to understand what they say in their context. They may often refer to "God", but they do so because that's how most of the audience relates with the infinite/void.

You will too, no less so, in time, unless you loose at the 'Frogger' game before when. So I can save you some time... I hope...

Hope is all I have... and infinite lives.


Lucky you, I'm not sure if I'm making headway or slipping away...
best of all the rest, have fun til your done,


Hard to say anything here.
Will try to have "fun", friend.

Passing by,
SN

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/13/13 9:52 AM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
Sweet Nothing:
Are merits not multiplied by being shared ?

[ It certainly would appear so, as multiplied among many who likewise share freely, not within one who is especially well endowed and generous. However for those who are simply defined as "endless fields of merit for the world(s)", what need have they of our puny mortal merits? That appears to approach an affront to the sensibilities... I'm not attempting to discourage you, simply suggesting there will typically always be obvious and 'to hand' enough of those who are clearly and demonstrably 'In Need of Your Merits' ( which I understand to mean that you are actively willing and capable of lending them some sort of needed assistance right now ) and those who do not so appear to be in any need whatsoever. ]


Any other 'founders' among the 'ancients' with noteworthy and well noted accomplishments available for similar extensive review, with this kind of quality and quantity of presentation? I am Totally interested in any that come to mind for you... or anyone else. Seriously.


I don't know of any other founder who has presented so extensively or whose works have spread and been preserved so widely.
However, in more recent times, there have been good teachers such as Swami Vivekananda and J. Krishnamurti.

Even today, there is a "Guru" called Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev. I find no discrepancies between what he says and what the Buddha taught. You can find his foundation's you tube channel here :

http://www.youtube.com/user/ishafoundation?feature=watch

The Yoga Sutras, which are the basis of Yogic philosophy, are entirely compatible with Buddhist thought with some minor exceptions.

There is this other guy called Mooji, who is also pretty sound.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Moojiji

You probably know of Deepak Chopra ..he has many videos on youtube. I feel he's got some good insight too.

When observing these references, it is necessary to understand what they say in their context. They may often refer to "God", but they do so because that's how most of the audience relates with the infinite/void.

You will too, no less so, in time, unless you loose at the 'Frogger' game before when. So I can save you some time... I hope...

Hope is all I have... and infinite lives.

And Eternity in an hour. ...so if sages aren't doing it for you, check with poets...


Lucky you, I'm not sure if I'm making headway or slipping away...
best of all the rest, have fun til your done,


Hard to say anything here.
Will try to have "fun", friend.

Passing by,
SN

[ Thanks for the references and links. When I wrote 'founders' I was implying more like Buddha - buddhists, Christ - christians, Mohamed - Islamics, Zoroaster -zoroastrians, Kepler - astronomers, Darwin - evolutionary biologists... that sort of stuff... ( I was trying to avoid list making because that inclines towards leaving out important figures and which names precede or follow other names... sorry EVERYONE. ) Again, the word fun was chosen specifically for it's 'vagueness', have a tolerable day, how's that? I'm typically content with 'tolerable' days, meals, company, weather...
Passing through...
-3bird ]

It occurred to me to add this, in case you still find me too grand eloquent...
and because I am typically a pesky bug to the largest of heads and faces I can find...
Simply beware, not all wide faces and smiling eyes are those of Buddhas and Bodhisattas...
Some are simply those of very large frogs and snakes...
So just keep dancin' when you're buzzin' around those eyes and mouths...

-nat the gnat

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/13/13 1:31 PM as a reply to triple think.
[ Thanks for the references and links. When I wrote 'founders' I was implying more like Buddha - buddhists, Christ - christians, Mohamed - Islamics, Zoroaster -zoroastrians, Kepler - astronomers, Darwin - evolutionary biologists... that sort of stuff... ( I was trying to avoid list making because that inclines towards leaving out important figures and which names precede or follow other names... sorry EVERYONE. ) Again, the word fun was chosen specifically for it's 'vagueness', have a tolerable day, how's that? I'm typically content with 'tolerable' days, meals, company, weather...
Passing through...
-3bird ]

Have you read the book titled 'Autobiography of a Yogi' ? It pours lights on many things misunderstood in the East and even more in the west. In the book, there is a part where the author's "guru" comes back for a brief meeting after he has mortally passed away. He claims that he has been reborn into the highest deva loka to guide those in need of guidance towards the formless lokas and the whole chapter is dedicated to all the different dimensions of life/samsara as perceived by this 'entity', Yukteswar Giri He goes on to say that few return even after transcending all 3 major realms, and Jesus was one of those. Of course, we must take this account with a pinch of salt and it is as credible as any other account of the kind.

I also feel that Jesus was Enlightened and his teachings were more poetic or symbolic rather than straight forward, because that is what was more suitable for the people who were around him. I will refrain from making any comparisons between different 'teachers' until my discernment is strong enough to cheerfully commit blasphemy.

That's a very nice poem you've shared and it does pluck a few strings here and there.

As for the Bodhis, lets turn the tables around, become more realistic and pray to them for guidance and protection.

Passion + Calm = Compassion overdose ?

B Buzzing,

SN

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/13/13 4:00 PM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
hey again, Mr. kNow;

I'm not trying to be a downer at all, if you are into praying, go for it. Personally, having been raised by some right rabid pray-ers and having walked out on the lot of 'em long before they were keen to let me go, I know what it is like to have a few thousand people "pray on me", I'm just hoping you never have the pleasure of that kind of "passionate concern".

I talk to Jesus a lot, personally I find his sense of humor unsurpassed and his patience imponderable. I frequently suspect he has been like 'my boss' for a few mil·len·ni·um if not longer and like with any job, as the years go by, it starts to wear on a guy.

I was saying one time, not so much as a prayer but rather simply 'out there' - to whomever it might concern - "why don't I just drop all of this, find a nice girl and raise rabbits." I turned, y'know Buddha-wise and got that usual stoney silence ( at least that is what I get, I dunno what you get back from that end ) and then letting my gaze wander towards JC I got this smooth response, "Go fish." I laughed my buttocks off, that guy is... one of a kind...

Yeah, I've read Autobiography of a Yogi, and about ten thousand other books more or less like it. I dunno, my life is a lot weirder so...

Whatever "works for you" man, that is all I am saying, just attend to your being you, best you can, live and learn, we all have to travel onwards starting from wherever it is that we are at, right? One thing I have found so far is that there is always more to it...

please have a 'tolerable' response from 'your' service providers, your 'calling' is important to us, thank you,
-triplethink

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/13/13 11:59 PM as a reply to triple think.
Hi again Mr 3 !

When I was small, I was taken to a Temple in Nepal. The name literally means "Minds desire" and I was told that any desire asked here is fulfilled. I had asked the dear goddess to let me go for white water rafting on my way back home from the temple. On the way back we did come across an enterprising lad who agreed to take us rafting for a tad higher price than what my dad felt was reasonable, and so the session never materialized. Since that day, I've lost faith in prayer, partially also because I feel it's one of the more selfish things to do to limit god to such a wish fulfilling mechanism.

What I do like about Jesus are the exceptional qualities he reflected through his narrative, such as forgiveness, compassion, metta, patience and the like.

Now, I haven't read the bible or any other scripture for that matter. I just like a few excerpts here and there in a poetic sense.
Eg:
Be still so you may know
The Kingdom of Heaven is within you
..and so on.

You can say my current view of things is a mix of everything out seen through my premature understanding of Dharma.

was saying one time, not so much as a prayer but rather simply 'out there' - to whomever it might concern - "why don't I just drop all of this, find a nice girl and raise rabbits." I turned, y'know Buddha-wise and got that usual stoney silence ( at least that is what I get, I dunno what you get back from that end ) and then letting my gaze wander towards JC I got this smooth response, "Go fish." I laughed my buttocks off, that guy is... one of a kind...


That's an interesting one.

Whatever "works for you" man, that is all I am saying, just attend to your being you, best you can, live and learn, we all have to travel onwards starting from wherever it is that we are at, right? One thing I have found so far is that there is always more to it...

please have a 'tolerable' response from 'your' service providers, your 'calling' is important to us, thank you,


Waiting in que until my 'call' is 'answered'..

Something

Nothing

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/14/13 7:45 AM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
Sweet Nothing:
Hi again Mr 3 !

When I was small, I was taken to a Temple in Nepal. The name literally means "Minds desire" and I was told that any desire asked here is fulfilled. I had asked the dear goddess to let me go for white water rafting on my way back home from the temple. On the way back we did come across an enterprising lad who agreed to take us rafting for a tad higher price than what my dad felt was reasonable, and so the session never materialized. Since that day, I've lost faith in prayer, partially also because I feel it's one of the more selfish things to do to limit god to such a wish fulfilling mechanism.

[ What Day was it? Omega One = God Almighty = Percipience = State of neither percipience nor non percipience Takes Sundays Off - from what I hear. ]

What I do like about Jesus are the exceptional qualities he reflected through his narrative, such as forgiveness, compassion, metta, patience and the like.

Now, I haven't read the bible or any other scripture for that matter. I just like a few excerpts here and there in a poetic sense.
Eg:
Be still so you may know
The Kingdom of Heaven is within you
..and so on.

You can say my current view of things is a mix of everything out seen through my premature understanding of Dharma.

[ Buddha Dhamma is the Master Code Book the Bible is the story of his(human) story/history from the perspective of Omega One = Pure Percipience = the almighty love of creation or Be-ing and Be-coming ]

was saying one time, not so much as a prayer but rather simply 'out there' - to whomever it might concern - "why don't I just drop all of this, find a nice girl and raise rabbits." I turned, y'know Buddha-wise and got that usual stoney silence ( at least that is what I get, I dunno what you get back from that end ) and then letting my gaze wander towards JC I got this smooth response, "Go fish." I laughed my buttocks off, that guy is... one of a kind...


That's an interesting one.

[ It was. Made me look! ]

Whatever "works for you" man, that is all I am saying, just attend to your being you, best you can, live and learn, we all have to travel onwards starting from wherever it is that we are at, right? One thing I have found so far is that there is always more to it...

please have a 'tolerable' response from 'your' service providers, your 'calling' is important to us, thank you,


Waiting in que until my 'call' is 'answered'..

Something

Saturday Again, gOoD to go........chatboxingloveson......... >3Bird)))>


Nothing

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/14/13 8:15 AM as a reply to triple think.
Hey, where did all the peeps and arahant's go? I thought we were going to get stuff sorted? No love...

wah...

I get bored in the No-Thing-Ness... Mara...

Back to infinite space and infinite time then...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee.......................

: : : : : : : : : : : : >)))>

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/15/13 12:59 PM as a reply to triple think.
Greetings Mr Think,

Have you also come across "The Book of Mirdad" ?

I am interested in knowing your more educated opinions on the stuff they write in books such as "Autobiography of a Yogi".

The way I understand things, practices like 'Kriya Yoga' start working from the branches of Kamma and the effects are immediately apparent whereas Vipassana starts working directly from the root levels and it's immediate effects are harder to discern.

Also what's your take on the kind of "Samadhi"s mentioned there ? 360 degree vision is intriguing.

Regards,

SN

RE: tripleops - methodology
Answer
12/15/13 1:36 PM as a reply to Sweet Nothing.
Sweet Nothing:
Greetings Mr Think,

Have you also come across "The Book of Mirdad" ?

“Too vast is Man and too imponderable his nature. Too varied are his
talents, and too inexhaustible his strength. Beware of those who
attempt to set him boundaries. Live as if your God Himself had need of
you His life to live. And so, in truth, He does.”

- Mikhail Naimy, The Book of Mirdad: The Strange Story of a Monastery Which Was Once Called the Ark

No, I hadn't, thank you very much, but it looks great! It's on my ABEbooks short list now.

I am interested in knowing your more educated opinions on the stuff they write in books such as "Autobiography of a Yogi".

Ugh, gosh, really? Can you simply quote from it? I don't want to read that one again, no offense intended. There are all kinds of 'yogic autobiographies' now, ongoing, all over this site, including now, yours...

The way I understand things, practices like 'Kriya Yoga' start working from the branches of Kamma and the effects are immediately apparent whereas Vipassana starts working directly from the root levels and it's immediate effects are harder to discern.

Not sure anymore who the boss is, which way is up or down, plus it's Sunday and I am doing some thinking of my own while the Almighty Fires of Creation takes a day off. I rented a room for half a year from a Kriya Yoga guy one time on the Sunshine Coast. He seemed fairly nice, real great dancer, gay as a three dollar bill, french Canadian guy.

Also what's your take on the kind of "Samadhi"s mentioned there ? 360 degree vision is intriguing.

Yeah, 360 or spherical vision is quite stunning when it occurs. Nothing ventured...nothing...never mind...

I'd say, build a good foundation, set it in stone and see what comes of it.

merry holy daze
triplethink

Regards,
SN