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Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else

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Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else IAMTHAT That Ami 12/14/13 12:13 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Tom Tom 12/14/13 12:37 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else IAMTHAT That Ami 12/14/13 1:16 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else (D Z) Dhru Val 12/14/13 12:43 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else IAMTHAT That Ami 12/14/13 1:21 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else (D Z) Dhru Val 12/14/13 1:56 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Psi 12/14/13 1:37 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Psi 12/14/13 10:13 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else triple think 12/14/13 7:48 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Richard Zen 12/14/13 11:31 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else triple think 12/14/13 11:37 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Nikolai . 12/14/13 1:07 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Banned For waht? 12/14/13 1:53 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else IAMTHAT That Ami 12/14/13 2:56 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Banned For waht? 12/15/13 11:01 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Psi 12/14/13 5:47 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else IAMTHAT That Ami 12/15/13 6:02 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Bill F. 12/15/13 7:13 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else IAMTHAT That Ami 12/16/13 12:45 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else triple think 12/16/13 3:42 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else IAMTHAT That Ami 12/16/13 4:14 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else triple think 12/16/13 4:49 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else triple think 12/15/13 7:17 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else triple think 12/15/13 8:06 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Psi 12/16/13 11:19 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else triple think 12/17/13 6:23 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Psi 12/17/13 11:43 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else triple think 12/17/13 12:12 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Psi 12/16/13 12:34 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Dream Walker 12/15/13 3:58 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else Ashit Singh Janeja 6/10/15 9:56 AM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else SeTyR ZeN 6/12/15 10:46 PM
RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else SeTyR ZeN 6/12/15 11:00 PM
Why the need for Mahasi Noting, Vipassana, retreats, chasing enlightenment, studying, etc....

EVerything already is the way it is.....but we are told it isnt the way it is and we need Enlightenment, that everything is illusion.

Who's to say Enlightenment isn't illusion. Just because it can be experienced by others.......so can imaginations, and those are clearly not real.

Of course, this is food for thought brought to you by the devils advocate. Hopefully someone can expand on this.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 12:37 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
Read the section on "nothing to do" and "already there" schools in mctb.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 12:43 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
Does it feel real to you ? Do you still have suffering ?

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 1:16 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom Tom:
Read the section on "nothing to do" and "already there" schools in mctb.

will give it go tomorrow and drop a line or 2

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 1:21 AM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
D Z:
Does it feel real to you ? Do you still have suffering ?


Does answering these questions the correct way, or in any way at all, influence or answer anything on reality being an Illusion and needing Enlightenment?

Does it Feel real to me? Anything I answer is illusion....."feel, real, you" all illusions. That can be the trick, the carrot to dangle..."Are you suffering and want it to end? Do you want to find out what is and isn't real? Just go down these Paths prescribed by those who have themselves gone down them, and you will be cured!!!!!"

Where you get to in the end, is right where you started from in the begining, everything still Is the way it Is

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 1:37 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
IAMTHAT That Ami:
Why the need for Mahasi Noting, Vipassana, retreats, chasing enlightenment, studying, etc....

EVerything already is the way it is.....but we are told it isnt the way it is and we need Enlightenment, that everything is illusion.

Who's to say Enlightenment isn't illusion. Just because it can be experienced by others.......so can imaginations, and those are clearly not real.

Of course, this is food for thought brought to you by the devils advocate. Hopefully someone can expand on this.


DNA patterns, all life has DNA, food, we absorb it from the environment, we turn it into us, so does all other life, we pass out the waste back into the environment, it gets recycled, reabsorbed, re-patterned into other of us patterns, the wheel keeps going round and round, of course that's just a physical level view, what do humans know? Even with our senses and all of our scientific might combined we can only observe a thin sliver of existence.

Illusion?

Let me answer your question with a question, since I have no answers:

Suppose there is a vast beach of sand, and from that sand there was a sand castle formed up from the surrounding sand, suppose even further the sand castle was conscious, is the sand castle caught by an illusion to think it is separate from the surrounding sand?

Sand Man

or is Absorbing Man more appropriate?

Nuf' Said

emoticon

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 1:56 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
IAMTHAT That Ami:
Does answering these questions the correct way, or in any way at all, influence or answer anything on reality being an Illusion and needing Enlightenment?

Does it Feel real to me? Anything I answer is illusion....."feel, real, you" all illusions. That can be the trick, the carrot to dangle..."Are you suffering and want it to end? Do you want to find out what is and isn't real? Just go down these Paths prescribed by those who have themselves gone down them, and you will be cured!!!!!"


Dogen Zenji wrote...
Emptiness is Form. Form is Emptiness. Therefore Form is Form. And Emptiness is Emptiness.

If all of reality is an illusion. Then all of illusion is reality. All designations are conventional. But conventionally we can still have functionally valid concepts of reality and illusion.

Logic is ultimately circular and not useful. So what do you do ?

Slap your face! How does it feel ?

What matters is your experience of life and how you impact the experience of those around you.


IAMTHAT That Ami:

Where you get to in the end, is right where you started from in the begining, everything still Is the way it Is


Not exactly. Minus suffering. Minus clinging to ignorance. You and your experience of reality are also completely transformed.

Your heart is opened up to life, and you are much more functional and happier human being.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 7:48 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
3 eyes are better than none
so long as one is set to wandering in the darkness

triplethink

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 10:13 AM as a reply to Psi.
Psi Phi:
IAMTHAT That Ami:
Why the need for Mahasi Noting, Vipassana, retreats, chasing enlightenment, studying, etc....

EVerything already is the way it is.....but we are told it isnt the way it is and we need Enlightenment, that everything is illusion.

Who's to say Enlightenment isn't illusion. Just because it can be experienced by others.......so can imaginations, and those are clearly not real.

Of course, this is food for thought brought to you by the devils advocate. Hopefully someone can expand on this.


DNA patterns, all life has DNA, food, we absorb it from the environment, we turn it into us, so does all other life, we pass out the waste back into the environment, it gets recycled, reabsorbed, re-patterned into other of us patterns, the wheel keeps going round and round, of course that's just a physical level view, what do humans know? Even with our senses and all of our scientific might combined we can only observe a thin sliver of existence.

Illusion?

Let me answer your question with a question, since I have no answers:

Suppose there is a vast beach of sand, and from that sand there was a sand castle formed up from the surrounding sand, suppose even further the sand castle was conscious, is the sand castle caught by an illusion to think it is separate from the surrounding sand?

Sand Man

or is Absorbing Man more appropriate?

Nuf' Said

Further along the shores, suppose the sand castle fully realises it is made of sand, just like all of the surrounding sand. Now, how then could sand ever have anger arise towards itself or other sand?

How then, could sand ever feel the greediness to have and aquire more and more sand to gather around the castle?

Would the sand castle then say what was before unrealised was an illusion?

I am not Sam, Sand I am.





emoticon

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 11:31 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
With cessations all you are trying to see is the fabrication of experience. Some Buddhists take that to mean everything is garbage (soiled rags:grinemoticon because of the three characteristics and some even go to the level that everything is a dream. Of course there are too many observers for everything to be a dream and it's irrelevant while you're alive and have to get on with your life.

A more realistic view is that the universe is complex and the brain is trying to simplify data for our survival interests. So the present moment is short-term memory, and we can't find a "source" for phenomenological experience so there are ways to reduce rumination/clinging/stress. The depth of that reduction in stress depends on how skilfully and how long you cultivate it.

As an eclectic I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater and just take what can be used in real life and put a question mark over anything that can't be verified (pari-nirvana/future lives etc). Being agnostic has the advantage in that I can take what is useful to me and discard what is not without feeling betrayed or having dashed expectations.

I think it's healthy to have some skepticism of claims to keep expectations realistic. Some of the practice has gone beyond what I expected and in this good article you can see where enlightenment expectations can go too far:

A realistic view of enlightenment

I would also recommend noticing how your skeptical thoughts feel in your body and notice that consistency in mindfulness is really necessary to go farther in practice. Mahasi noting can keep you honest when you are spacing out in views (including views and doubts about practice) and chasing enlightenment is stress if you just ruminate about enlightenment. Practice is the key. Reading is just to expand the skill of the practice and can be just a form of attachment if reading is all it is.

For you I would focus on the difference in stress when you're clinging versus not-clinging and make that your benchmark for progress. I haven't been on any retreats and still experience progress. I also don't think that stream-entry and enlightenment will solve all my problems and conventional wisdom still applies.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 11:37 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
Paweł K:
Buddha and other masters use catchy phrases as "end of all suffering" or "seeing world as it really is" and other... nonsense emoticon

every enlightened person still suffers both physical and mental pain. What is changed is reduction of few types of mental suffering types that come from clinging, aversion, ignorance, self referencing, denying own nature, etc. All that is very important but falls nowhere near 'end of all suffering' that enlightened people first claims when they feel good and later they invent bullsh*t like 'dependent origination' to justify their failure to end all suffering emoticon
One can decry others choices of words and or meanings all they wish Pawel, but it doesn't help any if what is said is not even more clear or if what is said is even more misleading.

For instance, I don't think you personally "know" every enlightened person. So I am simply going to say, that must be pure bullshit. Similarly I don't think you know the minds of all people and can make universal generalizations like this.

Also, when self is understood to be entirely a fabrication based on a particular viewpoint, it is obvious that what suffers is whatever is invested in that viewpoint, nothing more and nothing less. My thinking is, if one is going to come off as knowing something about 'enlightening' anyone about 'anything', then at least such a one should attempt to radiate some light upon some such thing instead of creating even more obscuration of the otherwise obvious truth or attempt to cast shadows up against the sun.

duh

triplethink

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 1:07 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
Paweł K:
Buddha and other masters use catchy phrases as "end of all suffering" or "seeing world as it really is" and other... nonsense emoticon

every enlightened person still suffers both physical and mental pain. What is changed is reduction of few types of mental suffering types that come from clinging, aversion, ignorance, self referencing, denying own nature, etc. All that is very important but falls nowhere near 'end of all suffering' that enlightened people first claims when they feel good and later they invent bullsh*t like 'dependent origination' to justify their failure to end all suffering emoticon
One can decry others choices of words and or meanings all they wish Pawel, but it doesn't help any if what is said is not even more clear or if what is said is even more misleading.

For instance, I don't think you personally "know" every enlightened person. So I am simply going to say, that must be pure bullshit. Similarly I don't think you know the minds of all people and can make universal generalizations like this.

Also, when self is understood to be entirely a fabrication based on a particular viewpoint, it is obvious that what suffers is whatever is invested in that viewpoint, nothing more and nothing less. My thinking is, if one is going to come off as knowing something about 'enlightening' anyone about 'anything', then at least such a one should attempt to radiate some light upon some such thing instead of creating even more obscuration of the otherwise obvious truth or attempt to cast shadows up against the sun.

duh

triplethink


I second what nathan said.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 1:53 PM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
you need to realize illusion of life and everything by becoming real(fully enlightened), otherwise its impossible to know that everything is illusion.
What you mean by everything? everything is your own perception. Your own karma. Your perception is shaped by past actions or your whatever, when you become enlightened fully you are settled in eternity/permanence.

So, how we change our reality if our perception is self-created/shaped, we can't, it seems we don't have a touch with reality, so yes we can tell that everything is illusion. I wish it could be same easy as in a movie "matrix".

What we can do, is give a birth to a real self(that what has zero karma, is not bound to everything). That means enlightenment. For now our perception is shaped automatically by nature/everything, so we need to defeat the nature(enlightenment) to allow our perception to change accordingly bit by bit.
Nature is our body, so we need to do some energy work, to do this we need to follow instructions. We need to scout and hijack the nature's headquarters and main computer and see whats there and put a virus(real self) in it. Its a onetime event put the "virus" will spread many(mayby tens) years to reach every bit and overwrite it.

We are part of the nature, we are carrying its cause with us. That means everybody has a potential to become enlightened. Yes everything is already the way it is but we can change it when we become immortal and realize other powers what allows us to change nature. Nothing will change with enlightenment, only it is complete opposite.

Apparently its possible to change the meaning of words that everything becomes true at some point..but its not real because our opinion is always biased on something. Enlightened beings opinion is too biased but usually he is aware of it. Usually also everything is already said somewhere else.

I agree,
everything is illusion, because it gets old. So is enlightenment an illusion, it will get realized, its then not there anymore, its one time event.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 2:56 PM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
you need to realize illusion of life and everything by becoming real(fully enlightened), otherwise its impossible to know that everything is illusion.

how do you know that becoming real/enlightened...isn't also illusion? By the very nature of saying all is illusion, includes enlightenment, any state, any realization also as an illusion. So you return back to where you started from, Existence, Being, Isness, etc
What you mean by everything? everything is your own perception. Your own karma. Your perception is shaped by past actions or your whatever, when you become enlightened fully you are settled in eternity/permanence.

If there is Eternity & permanence, then it is already inherent in what is now.

If everything is my own perception, & perceptions are illusions, then everything is illusion including karma, past, actions, etc

So, how we change our reality if our perception is self-created/shaped, we can't, it seems we don't have a touch with reality, so yes we can tell that everything is illusion. I wish it could be same easy as in a movie "matrix".

why change anything? That's creating this whole concept that you need to be changed and get enlightenment and we are not in touch with reality....all concepts, illusions ideas.

Reality is already here and you are a part of it. ANd yet it is all illusion....

What we can do, is give a birth to a real self(that what has zero karma, is not bound to everything). That means enlightenment. For now our perception is shaped automatically by nature/everything, so we need to defeat the nature(enlightenment) to allow our perception to change accordingly bit by bit.

Why the need to do any of that? You are then making a concept that there is a need for that. Everything already is as it is. Whatever has zero karma, has zero karma. Whatever has a bunch, has a bunch. So what?

Real self and unreal self is all illusions anyway.

Nature is our body, so we need to do some energy work, to do this we need to follow instructions. We need to scout and hijack the nature's headquarters and main computer and see whats there and put a virus(real self) in it. Its a onetime event put the "virus" will spread many(mayby tens) years to reach every bit and overwrite it.


Is this an absolute? Does this absolutely need to be done? If so, then why?

Apparently its possible to change the meaning of words that everything becomes true at some point..but its not real because our opinion is always biased on something. Enlightened beings opinion is too biased but usually he is aware of it. Usually also everything is already said somewhere else.

So everything is unrel then, whether its bias or unbias....all illusion

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/14/13 5:47 PM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
IAMTHAT That Ami:
Why the need for Mahasi Noting, Vipassana, retreats, chasing enlightenment, studying, etc.


Why indeed? Why practice right effort? Why would someone want to have a mindful skillset that enabled them to not let an unwholesome thought arise that has not yet arisen? Why would anyone want to have a mindful skillset that would enable them to abandon an unwholesome mind state that has already arisen? Why would anyone want to be able to arouse a wholesome state of mind and then maintain that wholesome state of mind? Why indeed is there a need to practice? Existence is just what it is as you say, why transcend the mundane existence?

Say someone heard people could ride bicycles, and read books about people riding bicycles, that they could
be balanced and move along nicely enjoying the scenery.
But if that someone could not ride a bicycle, and then one day just hopped on the bicycle, they could not immediately start riding the bicycle, they will wobble and fall down. But, if that someone were to practice, diligently, ardently, daily,, then one day they would be able to ride a bicycle. The spiritual path is a do it yourself job.

So yes, reality does not change, there is always suffering in the world, that is reality, skills are learned gradually, nothing is acquired without effort and practice. And no there is no need to practice anything, one can always continue on the way one always has, it's just that the journey is much more tedious without having taught yourself to ride a bike. Mind skills aren't always about full enlightenment, a little calm and a little insight goes a long way.

Irish Proverb I read today in a bookstore.

"Talking about plowing the field doesn't get the field plowed."

Anyway wishing the best for all, I have my own plowing to do, and my fields still have lots o' stones...

Ply Phi

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/15/13 11:01 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
IAMTHAT That Ami:
you need to realize illusion of life and everything by becoming real(fully enlightened), otherwise its impossible to know that everything is illusion.

how do you know that becoming real/enlightened...isn't also illusion? By the very nature of saying all is illusion, includes enlightenment, any state, any realization also as an illusion. So you return back to where you started from, Existence, Being, Isness, etc
What you mean by everything? everything is your own perception. Your own karma. Your perception is shaped by past actions or your whatever, when you become enlightened fully you are settled in eternity/permanence.

If there is Eternity & permanence, then it is already inherent in what is now.

If everything is my own perception, & perceptions are illusions, then everything is illusion including karma, past, actions, etc

So, how we change our reality if our perception is self-created/shaped, we can't, it seems we don't have a touch with reality, so yes we can tell that everything is illusion. I wish it could be same easy as in a movie "matrix".

why change anything? That's creating this whole concept that you need to be changed and get enlightenment and we are not in touch with reality....all concepts, illusions ideas.

Reality is already here and you are a part of it. ANd yet it is all illusion....

What we can do, is give a birth to a real self(that what has zero karma, is not bound to everything). That means enlightenment. For now our perception is shaped automatically by nature/everything, so we need to defeat the nature(enlightenment) to allow our perception to change accordingly bit by bit.

Why the need to do any of that? You are then making a concept that there is a need for that. Everything already is as it is. Whatever has zero karma, has zero karma. Whatever has a bunch, has a bunch. So what?

Real self and unreal self is all illusions anyway.

Nature is our body, so we need to do some energy work, to do this we need to follow instructions. We need to scout and hijack the nature's headquarters and main computer and see whats there and put a virus(real self) in it. Its a onetime event put the "virus" will spread many(mayby tens) years to reach every bit and overwrite it.


Is this an absolute? Does this absolutely need to be done? If so, then why?

Apparently its possible to change the meaning of words that everything becomes true at some point..but its not real because our opinion is always biased on something. Enlightened beings opinion is too biased but usually he is aware of it. Usually also everything is already said somewhere else.

So everything is unrel then, whether its bias or unbias....all illusion


you take words and everything too literally. Only what matters is potential what allows everything to be. First thing to do is get to know or insight what/where is the potential and how can i use it/activate it, then i investigate it and then i master it. Then i use it for everything.
How i find it, i use knowledge of that all dharma is eventually wrong and its what i am looking for is beyond all phenomena- beyond everything. And that is it, i play all variants in my mind and concentrate on the ideas, milking out the correct answers, i will get closer and closer to the truth i am looking for.
If your method(thing what you do) is beyond words and actually give tangible result, you have found it.
But if it is just noting sensations then its not it and won't get you there to the main things, that is for sure. Also saying that everything is illusion(relying only to this knowledge) is noobish(sorry) that show you have just started out or you have some kind of mayor block what you don't yet see by yourself.
I note too but i note for a reason(everybody does it, aware of it or not), to find out things and that means noting actually is concentration practice. If i just let go then it means i let go of clinging and energies(from potential) will flow freely to the head, now if i have figured out what letting go means then i can also figure out how to force these energies.

What i wanted to say now is that saying or knowing by logic that everything just is, does not make any breakthrough. If you have practiced long time and haven't seen any good then you are doing something wrong. If you found the way how to ignite the potential/source then you will see immediate result, after that you can figure out how to use it.

it probably takes long time to notice that all dharma books talk about the same things but with different words and angles. I have read that simple "letting go" is the highest practice but people does not understand what it means and therefore they have to start with noting and concentration practice(these are tools, and will not make you enlightened) so there is hundreds of books about noting and concentration and their different variations, there also are more people who don't understand these and will think that for example love will get you there, more books.
Of course one can get absorbed by thinking(concentrating about love in some degree, and that could be a holy sign for some. Imagine if some(with a belief that love is all there is) will have nice bliss wave while concentrating on love feeling, that person will be even more deeply away from path then...

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/15/13 3:58 PM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/15/13 6:02 PM as a reply to Psi.
Why indeed? Why practice right effort? Why would someone want to have a mindful skillset that enabled them to not let an unwholesome thought arise that has not yet arisen?

If an unwholesome thought has not yet risen, then it does not exist.

"Thinking" is normal. It is part of life, intellect, wisdom, it gives us art, books, poetry, engineering, technology, bridges, structure, roads, cars to drive on the roads. There is nothing wrong with thought.

What is "unwholesome thought" anyway? That is all relative and illusion based. What is unwholesome to you, is perfectly normal to somebody else, therefore since it is relative, there is not right/wrong about it.

You've created this whole story and idea of needing to get somewhere, to form some sort of skillset, which can possibly add to an idea that you are no complete until you gain some skillset based on relative concepts.

Why would anyone want to have a mindful skillset that would enable them to abandon an unwholesome mind state that has already arisen?

Who says mind is unwholesome? Again a relative idea!!! Notice how you are using that exact "mind" to partake in this discussion.

Why would anyone want to be able to arouse a wholesome state of mind and then maintain that wholesome state of mind? Why indeed is there a need to practice? Existence is just what it is as you say, why transcend the mundane existence?

More relative concepts & illusions. It's starting to sound like a religion: Your mind is unwholesome, but you need to gain wholesomeness, and existence is mundane so you need to transcend. All illusions.

Everything already Is as it is...without these ideas and needs and "relative" concepts. Why the need for anything? Soon as you have ideas of lack and need..that's when you start causing these problems, the search, the needs.

Say someone heard people could ride bicycles, and read books about people riding bicycles, that they could
be balanced and move along nicely enjoying the scenery.
But if that someone could not ride a bicycle, and then one day just hopped on the bicycle, they could not immediately start riding the bicycle, they will wobble and fall down. But, if that someone were to practice, diligently, ardently, daily,, then one day they would be able to ride a bicycle. The spiritual path is a do it yourself job.

We're all, already riding bicycles. Life is spiritual, existence is spiritual, the present moment is spiritual

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/15/13 7:13 PM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
Hello I am that AMI,

Not sure that I got your name right. The idea that enlightenment is just a concept does resonate with me, but the idea that enlightenment is just a concept is empty as well. That's the thing about emptiness, it's empty. You appear to be attached (i.e giving solidity) to your idea that everything is empty. Kind of funny when you think about it.
But enough with concepts, being as they are empty. What is your experience? If your experience is that everything is just as it is, why post? Further, why disagree with what others are posting. Why not let that just be what it is, instead of pushing back against it. It would suggest that this is merely an idea you are attached to, and that you have a full range of concepts of your own that you are invested in. I counted maybe ten in one of your posts. Thank you for posting, and sharing your thoughts.

Bill

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/15/13 7:17 PM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
I think the commonality of perceptions of an illusoriness that is allegedly somehow unique to life and being alive these days is that there is not enough charnel ground meditation taking place at western "retreat centers".

- T3 /// the machine that is comin' ta gitcha'



RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/15/13 8:06 PM as a reply to triple think.
From the Basic Buddhism.Org website:

Mahasatipatthana Sutta (II)

The Foundations of Mindfulness (Mahasatipatthana Sutta)

1. Thus have I heard. Once the Lord was staying among the Kurus.
There is a market-town of theirs called Kammasadhamma.
And there the Lord addressed the monks : "Monks !"
"Lord", they replied, and the Lord said :
"There is, monks, this one way

for the purification of beings,
for the overcoming of sorrow and distress,
for the disappearance of pain and sadness,
for the gaining of the right path,
for the realisation of Nibanna.

That is to say the four foundations of mindfulness.

What are the four ?

Here, monks, a monk abides contemplating body as body, ardent, clearly aware and mindful, having put aside hankering and fretting for the world.

He abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, clearly aware and mindful, having put aside hankering and fretting for the world.

He abides contemplating mind as mind, ardent, clearly aware and mindful, having put aside hankering and fretting for the world.

He abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects, ardent, clearly aware and mindful, having put aside hankering and fretting for the world.

Contemplation of the Body
(a. Mindfulness of Breathing)

2. "And how, monks, does a monk abide contemplating the body as body ?

Here a monk,
having gone into the forest, or
to the root of a tree, or
to an empty place,

sits down cross-legged,
holding his body erect,
having established mindfulness before him.

Mindfully he breathes in,
Mindfully he breathes out.

Breathing in a long breath,
he knows that he breathes in long breath, and
Breathing out a long breath,
he knows that he breathes out long breath

Breathing in a short breath,
he knows that he breathes in short breath.
Breathing out a short breath,
he knows that he breathes out short breath.

He trains himself, thinking :
"I will breathe in, conscious of the whole body."
He trains himself, thinking :
"I will breathe out, conscious of the whole body."

He trains himself, thinking :
"I will breathe in, calming the whole bodily process."
He trains himself, thinking :
"I will breathe out, calming the whole bodily process."

Just as a skill turner, or his assistant,
in making a long turn, knows that he is making a long turn,
or in making a short turn, knows that he is making a short turn.

so too a monk,
in breathing in a long breath, knows that he breathes in a long breath
or in breathing out short breath, knows he breathes out short breath.
so trains himself, thinking
"I will breathe out, calming the whole bodily process."

(Insight)

"So he abides contemplating body as body internally,
contemplating body as body externally,
contemplating body as body both internally and externally.

He abides contemplating arising phenomena in the body,
He abides contemplating vanishing phenomena in the body
He abides contemplating both arising and vanishing phenomena in the body

Or else, mindfulness that "there is a body" is present to him
just to the extent necessary for the knowledge and awareness.
And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world.
And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body."

(b. The Four Postures)

3. "Again, a monk,

when walking, he knows that he is walking,
when standing, he knows that he is standing,
when sitting, he knows that he is sitting,
when lying down, he knows that he is lying down.

In whatever way his body is disposed, he knows that that is how it is.

(Insight)

"So he abides contemplating body as body internally,
contemplating body as body externally,
contemplating body as body both internally and externally.

He abides contemplating arising phenomena in the body,
He abides contemplating vanishing phenomena in the body
He abides contemplating both arising and vanishing phenomena in the body

Or else, mindfulness that "there is a body" is present to him
just to the extent necessary for the knowledge and awareness.
And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world.
And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body."

(c. Clear Awareness)

4. "Again, a monk,

when going forward or backwards,
he is clearly aware of what he is doing,
in looking forward or backwards,
he is clearly aware of what he is doing,
in bending or stretching,
he is clearly aware of what he is doing,
in carrying his inner and outer robe and his bowl,
he is clearly aware of what he is doing,
in eating, drinking, chewing and savouring ,
he is clearly aware of what he is doing,
in passing excrement or urine,
he is clearly aware of what he is doing,
in walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep and waking up, in speaking or in staying silent,
he is clearly aware of what he is doing.

(Insight)

"So he abides contemplating body as body internally,
contemplating body as body externally,
contemplating body as body both internally and externally.

He abides contemplating arising phenomena in the body,
He abides contemplating vanishing phenomena in the body
He abides contemplating both arising and vanishing phenomena in the body

Or else, mindfulness that "there is a body" is present to him
just to the extent necessary for the knowledge and awareness.
And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world.
And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body."

(d. Reflection on the Repulsive : Parts of the Body)

5. "Again, a monk reviews this very body
from the soles of the feet upwards and from the scalp downwards,
enclosed by the skin and full of manifold impurities:

"In this body, there are head-hair, body-hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, mesentery, bowels, stomach, excrement, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fats, tears, tallow, saliva, snot, synovic fluid, urine."

Just as if there were a bag, open at both ends, full of various kinds of grain such as hill-rice, paddy, green gram, kidney-beans, sesame, husked rice and a man with good eyesight were to open the bag and examine them, saying :

"This is hill-rice, this is paddy, this is green gram,
these are kidney-beans, this is sesame, this is husked rice."

So too a monk reviews this very body :
"In this body, there are head-hair, body-hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, mesentery, bowels, stomach, excrement, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fats, tears, tallow, saliva, snot, synovic fluid, urine."

(Insight)

"So he abides contemplating body as body internally,
contemplating body as body externally,
contemplating body as body both internally and externally.

He abides contemplating arising phenomena in the body,
He abides contemplating vanishing phenomena in the body
He abides contemplating both arising and vanishing phenomena in the body

Or else, mindfulness that "there is a body" is present to him
just to the extent necessary for the knowledge and awareness.
And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world.
And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body."

(e. The Four Elements)

6. "Again, a monk reviews this body, however it may be placed or disposed, in terms of the elements:
"There are in this body

the earth-element
the water-element
the fire-element
the air-element

Just as if a skilled butcher or his assistant, having slaughtered a cow, were to sit at a cross roads with the carcass divided into portions, so a monk reviews this very body, however it may be placed or disposed, in terms of the elements :
"There are in this body

the earth-element
the water-element
the fire-element
the air-element

(Insight)

"So he abides contemplating body as body internally,
contemplating body as body externally,
contemplating body as body both internally and externally.

He abides contemplating arising phenomena in the body,
He abides contemplating vanishing phenomena in the body
He abides contemplating both arising and vanishing phenomena in the body

Or else, mindfulness that "there is a body" is present to him
just to the extent necessary for the knowledge and awareness.
And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world.
And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body."



[ Better to do this path work now than to leave it out and wait to do it in the first person pov later...
- triplethink ]

(f. The Nine Charnel-Ground Contemplations)

7. "Again, a monk, as if were to see a corpse thrown in a charnel-ground,
one, two or three days dead, bloated, discoloured, festering,
compares this body with that, thinking ;
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from the fate."

(Insight)

"So he abides contemplating body as body internally,
contemplating body as body externally,
contemplating body as body both internally and externally.

He abides contemplating arising phenomena in the body,
He abides contemplating vanishing phenomena in the body
He abides contemplating both arising and vanishing phenomena in the body

Or else, mindfulness that "there is a body" is present to him
just to the extent necessary for the knowledge and awareness.
And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world.
And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body."

8. "Again, a monk, as if he were to see a corpse in a charnel-ground, thrown aside, eaten by crows, hawks or vultures, by dogs or jackals, or various other creatures,
compares this body with that, thinking :
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from that fate."

9. "Again, a monk, as if he were to see a corpse in a charnel-ground, thrown aside,
a skeleton with the flesh and blood, connected by sinews
compares this body with that, thinking :
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from that fate."

a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected by sinews,
compares this body with that, thinking :
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from that fate."

skeleton detached from flesh and blood, connected by sinews,
compares this body with that, thinking :
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from that fate."

randomly connected bones, scattered in all directions, a hand-bone here,
a foot-bone there, a shin-bone here, a thigh-bone there, a hip-bone-bone here,
a spine there, a skull there, compares this body with that, thinking :
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from that fate."

10. "Again, a monk, as if he were to see a corpse in a charnel-ground, thrown aside, the bones whitened, looking like shells,
compares this body with that, thinking :
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from that fate."

the bones piled up, a year old, compares this body with that, thinking :
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from that fate."

the bones rotted away to a powder, compares this body with that, thinking :
"This body is of the same nature, it will become like that,
it is not exempt from that fate."


(Insight)

"So he abides contemplating body as body internally,
contemplating body as body externally,
contemplating body as body both internally and externally.

He abides contemplating arising phenomena in the body,
He abides contemplating vanishing phenomena in the body
He abides contemplating both arising and vanishing phenomena in the body

Or else, mindfulness that "there is a body" is present to him
just to the extent necessary for the knowledge and awareness.
And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world.
And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body."

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/16/13 12:34 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
IAMTHAT That Ami:



If an unwholesome thought has not yet risen, then it does not exist.

(Right and the correct effort is to keep it that way)

"Thinking" is normal. It is part of life, intellect, wisdom, it gives us art, books, poetry, engineering, technology, bridges, structure, roads, cars to drive on the roads. There is nothing wrong with thought.

(Did not say there was anything wrong with thought)

What is "unwholesome thought" anyway? That is all relative and illusion based. What is unwholesome to you, is perfectly normal to somebody else, therefore since it is relative, there is not right/wrong about it.

(Not to recognize what is unwholesome is an illusion, so in that sense I agree, you are in an illusion))

You've created this whole story and idea of needing to get somewhere, to form some sort of skillset, which can possibly add to an idea that you are no complete until you gain some skillset based on relative concepts.

(Who is going where? Again you are speaking from the standpoint of still being in an illusion)


Who says mind is unwholesome? Again a relative idea!!! Notice how you are using that exact "mind" to partake in this discussion.
(No, I said an unwholesome mind state, I did not say an unwholesome mind, again, you speak as if in an illusion)

[
More relative concepts & illusions. It's starting to sound like a religion: Your mind is unwholesome, but you need to gain wholesomeness, and existence is mundane so you need to transcend. All illusions.

(Why take things personally, I did not say "you" had an unwholesome mind state. I did not say you need to gain anything. Have you had a wholesome mind state? What was that like? Have you had an unwholesome mind state, and what was that like? Or are you saying you have zero discernment and comprehension and can not discern your own mind states?)

Everything already Is as it is...without these ideas and needs and "relative" concepts. Why the need for anything? Soon as you have ideas of lack and need..that's when you start causing these problems, the search, the needs.

(Who said I have ideas of lack and need, are you projecting your own thought processes onto others, thinking all minds perform like yours?)



We're all, already riding bicycles. Life is spiritual, existence is spiritual, the present moment is spiritual
(Sounds like an illusion)

“It would be better if there were nothing. Since there is more pain than pleasure on earth, every satisfaction is only transitory, creating new desires and new distresses, and the agony of the devoured animal is always far greater than the pleasure of the devourer”
― Arthur Schopenhauer

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/16/13 12:45 AM as a reply to Bill F..
William Golden Finch:
Hello I am that AMI,

Not sure that I got your name right. The idea that enlightenment is just a concept does resonate with me, but the idea that enlightenment is just a concept is empty as well. That's the thing about emptiness, it's empty. You appear to be attached (i.e giving solidity) to your idea that everything is empty. Kind of funny when you think about it.
But enough with concepts, being as they are empty. What is your experience? If your experience is that everything is just as it is, why post? Further, why disagree with what others are posting. Why not let that just be what it is, instead of pushing back against it. It would suggest that this is merely an idea you are attached to, and that you have a full range of concepts of your own that you are invested in. I counted maybe ten in one of your posts. Thank you for posting, and sharing your thoughts.

Bill


no attachments to the solidity of ideas...they are indeed, simply ideas in the end.

My experience is everything as it Is. Why Post? Why not?

I too was once wrapped up in the whole chase for mindfulness, stages, enlightenment, etc.... playing a bit of devils advocate here, cause someone has to, or everyone can if they want. I'm pushing back for the sake of bringing anything of value to this thread, besides just relative opinions< and an unquesioned status quo. Whether I post/reply or not, does not change the Isness of all things. If these threads are of devil's advocate quality, that doesn't mean there are ideas & concepts I am attached to. And yet if I was, is there anything wrong in that? It would be just like everyone here attached to seeking and getting Enlightened....same deal

People take all this stuff as if its on a holy high horse of some sort. No one questions any of it. If we didn't question the roundness of the earth, it would still be flat.

I remember the story of Buddha (after enlightenment)...upon hearing that his family was killed in war, was saddened & grieved. People think they will reach some transcendent state beyond everything, but there is nothing wrong with grieving, sadness, suffering, happiness, etc. It's part of the human experience, part of reality, part of existence itself.

Just like the pressures in the earth change carbon to diamonds, or rushing waters soften stone to carve paths, so to does all the ranges of what we go through here in Existence/Reality create diamonds and rivers out of people.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/16/13 3:42 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
IAMTHAT That Ami:
William Golden Finch:
Hello I am that AMI,

Not sure that I got your name right. The idea that enlightenment is just a concept does resonate with me, but the idea that enlightenment is just a concept is empty as well. That's the thing about emptiness, it's empty. You appear to be attached (i.e giving solidity) to your idea that everything is empty. Kind of funny when you think about it.
But enough with concepts, being as they are empty. What is your experience? If your experience is that everything is just as it is, why post? Further, why disagree with what others are posting. Why not let that just be what it is, instead of pushing back against it. It would suggest that this is merely an idea you are attached to, and that you have a full range of concepts of your own that you are invested in. I counted maybe ten in one of your posts. Thank you for posting, and sharing your thoughts.

Bill


no attachments to the solidity of ideas...they are indeed, simply ideas in the end.

My experience is everything as it Is. Why Post? Why not?

I too was once wrapped up in the whole chase for mindfulness, stages, enlightenment, etc.... playing a bit of devils advocate here, cause someone has to, or everyone can if they want. I'm pushing back for the sake of bringing anything of value to this thread, besides just relative opinions< and an unquesioned status quo. Whether I post/reply or not, does not change the Isness of all things. If these threads are of devil's advocate quality, that doesn't mean there are ideas & concepts I am attached to. And yet if I was, is there anything wrong in that? It would be just like everyone here attached to seeking and getting Enlightened....same deal

People take all this stuff as if its on a holy high horse of some sort. No one questions any of it. If we didn't question the roundness of the earth, it would still be flat.

I remember the story of Buddha (after enlightenment)...upon hearing that his family was killed in war, was saddened & grieved. People think they will reach some transcendent state beyond everything, but there is nothing wrong with grieving, sadness, suffering, happiness, etc. It's part of the human experience, part of reality, part of existence itself.

Just like the pressures in the earth change carbon to diamonds, or rushing waters soften stone to carve paths, so to does all the ranges of what we go through here in Existence/Reality create diamonds and rivers out of people.
Yo, paper tiger that am;

Sounds like another job for
Adorno, but where to begin when the ice is so thin... I suppose anywhere that serious thought might...

132
Expensive reproduction. – Society is integral, before it ever becomes ruled as totalitarian. Its organization encompasses even those who feud against it, and normalizes their consciousness. Even intellectuals who have all the political arguments against bourgeois ideology handy, are subjected to a process of standardization which, whether in crassly contrasting content or through the readiness on their part to be comfortable, brings them closer to the prevailing Spirit , such that their standpoint objectively becomes always more arbitrary, dependent on flimsy preferences or their estimation of their own chances.

What appears to them as subjectively radical, objectively belongs through and through to the compartment of a schema, reserved for them and their kind, so that radicalism is degraded to abstract prestige, the legitimation of those who know what today’s intellectuals should be for and against. The good things, for which they opt, have long since been acknowledged, their numbers accordingly limited, as fixed in the value-hierarchy as those in the student fraternities. While they denounce official kitsch, their sensibility is dependent, like obedient children, on nourishment already sought out in advance, on the cliches of hostility to cliches.

The dwellings of young bohemians resemble their spiritual household. On the wall, deceptively original color prints of famous artists, such as Van Gogh’s Sunflowers or the Café at Arles, on the bookshelf derivative works on socialism and psychoanalysis and a little sex-research for the uninhibited with inhibitions. In addition, the Random House edition of Proust – Scott Moncrieff’s translation deserved a better fate – exclusivity at reduced prices, whose exterior alone, the compact-economic form of the omnibus, is a mockery of the author, whose every sentence knocks a received opinion out of action, while he now plays, as a prize-winning homosexual, the same role with youth as books on animals of the forest and the North Pole expedition in the German home. Also, the record player with the Lincoln cantata of a brave soul, which deals essentially with railroad stations, next to the obligatory eye-catching folklore from Oklahoma and a pair of brassy jazz records, which make one feel simultaneously collective, bold and comfortable.

Every judgment is approved by friends, they know all the arguments in advance.

That all cultural products, even the non-conformist ones, are incorporated into the mechanism of distribution of large-scale capital, that in the most developed lands a creation which does not bear the imprimatur of mass production can scarcely reach any readers, observers, or listeners, refuses the material in advance for the deviating longing.

Even Kafka is turned into a piece of inventory in the rented apartment. Intellectuals themselves are already so firmly established, in their isolated spheres, in what is confirmed, that they can no longer desire anything which is not served to them under the brand of “highbrow” [in English in original].

Their sole ambition consists of finding their way in the accepted canon, of saying the right thing.

The outsider status of the initiates is an illusion and mere waiting-time. It would be giving them too much credit to call them renegades; they wear overlarge horn-rimmed glasses on their mediocre faces, solely to better pass themselves off as “brilliant” to themselves and to others in the general competition.

They are already exactly like them. The subjective precondition of opposition, the non-normalized judgment, goes extinct, while its trappings continue to be carried out as a group ritual.

Stalin need only clear his throat, and they throw Kafka and Van Gogh on the trash-heap.


devil's horn,
furballs & verbals,
- triplethink

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/16/13 4:14 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
IAMTHAT That Ami:
William Golden Finch:
Hello I am that AMI,

Not sure that I got your name right. The idea that enlightenment is just a concept does resonate with me, but the idea that enlightenment is just a concept is empty as well. That's the thing about emptiness, it's empty. You appear to be attached (i.e giving solidity) to your idea that everything is empty. Kind of funny when you think about it.
But enough with concepts, being as they are empty. What is your experience? If your experience is that everything is just as it is, why post? Further, why disagree with what others are posting. Why not let that just be what it is, instead of pushing back against it. It would suggest that this is merely an idea you are attached to, and that you have a full range of concepts of your own that you are invested in. I counted maybe ten in one of your posts. Thank you for posting, and sharing your thoughts.

Bill


no attachments to the solidity of ideas...they are indeed, simply ideas in the end.

My experience is everything as it Is. Why Post? Why not?

I too was once wrapped up in the whole chase for mindfulness, stages, enlightenment, etc.... playing a bit of devils advocate here, cause someone has to, or everyone can if they want. I'm pushing back for the sake of bringing anything of value to this thread, besides just relative opinions< and an unquesioned status quo. Whether I post/reply or not, does not change the Isness of all things. If these threads are of devil's advocate quality, that doesn't mean there are ideas & concepts I am attached to. And yet if I was, is there anything wrong in that? It would be just like everyone here attached to seeking and getting Enlightened....same deal

People take all this stuff as if its on a holy high horse of some sort. No one questions any of it. If we didn't question the roundness of the earth, it would still be flat.

I remember the story of Buddha (after enlightenment)...upon hearing that his family was killed in war, was saddened & grieved. People think they will reach some transcendent state beyond everything, but there is nothing wrong with grieving, sadness, suffering, happiness, etc. It's part of the human experience, part of reality, part of existence itself.

Just like the pressures in the earth change carbon to diamonds, or rushing waters soften stone to carve paths, so to does all the ranges of what we go through here in Existence/Reality create diamonds and rivers out of people.
Yo, paper tiger that am;

Sounds like another job for
Adorno, but where to begin when the ice is so thin... I suppose anywhere that serious thought might...

132
Expensive reproduction. – Society is integral, before it ever becomes ruled as totalitarian. Its organization encompasses even those who feud against it, and normalizes their consciousness. Even intellectuals who have all the political arguments against bourgeois ideology handy, are subjected to a process of standardization which, whether in crassly contrasting content or through the readiness on their part to be comfortable, brings them closer to the prevailing Spirit , such that their standpoint objectively becomes always more arbitrary, dependent on flimsy preferences or their estimation of their own chances.

What appears to them as subjectively radical, objectively belongs through and through to the compartment of a schema, reserved for them and their kind, so that radicalism is degraded to abstract prestige, the legitimation of those who know what today’s intellectuals should be for and against. The good things, for which they opt, have long since been acknowledged, their numbers accordingly limited, as fixed in the value-hierarchy as those in the student fraternities. While they denounce official kitsch, their sensibility is dependent, like obedient children, on nourishment already sought out in advance, on the cliches of hostility to cliches.

The dwellings of young bohemians resemble their spiritual household. On the wall, deceptively original color prints of famous artists, such as Van Gogh’s Sunflowers or the Café at Arles, on the bookshelf derivative works on socialism and psychoanalysis and a little sex-research for the uninhibited with inhibitions. In addition, the Random House edition of Proust – Scott Moncrieff’s translation deserved a better fate – exclusivity at reduced prices, whose exterior alone, the compact-economic form of the omnibus, is a mockery of the author, whose every sentence knocks a received opinion out of action, while he now plays, as a prize-winning homosexual, the same role with youth as books on animals of the forest and the North Pole expedition in the German home. Also, the record player with the Lincoln cantata of a brave soul, which deals essentially with railroad stations, next to the obligatory eye-catching folklore from Oklahoma and a pair of brassy jazz records, which make one feel simultaneously collective, bold and comfortable.

Every judgment is approved by friends, they know all the arguments in advance.

That all cultural products, even the non-conformist ones, are incorporated into the mechanism of distribution of large-scale capital, that in the most developed lands a creation which does not bear the imprimatur of mass production can scarcely reach any readers, observers, or listeners, refuses the material in advance for the deviating longing.

Even Kafka is turned into a piece of inventory in the rented apartment. Intellectuals themselves are already so firmly established, in their isolated spheres, in what is confirmed, that they can no longer desire anything which is not served to them under the brand of “highbrow” [in English in original].

Their sole ambition consists of finding their way in the accepted canon, of saying the right thing.

The outsider status of the initiates is an illusion and mere waiting-time. It would be giving them too much credit to call them renegades; they wear overlarge horn-rimmed glasses on their mediocre faces, solely to better pass themselves off as “brilliant” to themselves and to others in the general competition.

They are already exactly like them. The subjective precondition of opposition, the non-normalized judgment, goes extinct, while its trappings continue to be carried out as a group ritual.

Stalin need only clear his throat, and they throw Kafka and Van Gogh on the trash-heap.


devil's horn,
furballs & verbals,
- triplethink


Honest question..... isn't there a simpler way to say everything in the above post?

Life, existence, Being is actually quite simple

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/16/13 4:49 PM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
IAMTHAT That Ami:
triple think:
yada yada yada etc...
...furballs & verbals,
- triplethink
Honest question..... isn't there a simpler way to say everything in the above post?

Life, existence, Being is actually quite simple
Yams w/Jams;

usually, maybe not...

"...some people never see the light, until it shines through bullet holes..."

from: A Buddhist Response to Contemporary Dilemmas of Human Existence by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi © 1994

(5) The Preservation of the Human Community


The last challenge I will discuss is the need for religions to re-affirm and to actively demonstrate those values that are particularly critical for the human race to attain the status of an integrative, harmonious community. They must translate into concrete programs of action the great virtues of love and compassion. Because the world has become more closely knit than ever before, we have to recognize the enormous responsibility that we each bear for the welfare of the whole. What all religions need to stress, in the face of so much cruelty and violence, is the development of a sense of global responsibility, a concern for the welfare and happiness of all living beings as well as for the protection of our natural environment. Love and compassion must issue forth in active endeavor to alleviate the sufferings of others and to ensure that the oppressed and afflicted are granted all the opportunities that have hitherto been denied them.

This is an area where Christianity, with its Social Gospel, has shown far greater initiative than Buddhism, which too often has subscribed to a false, fatalistic interpretation of the karma doctrine that stifles social action. But the foundation for a socially oriented expression of Buddhism is already found in the Dhamma, especially in its formula of the four Brahma Viharas, or "Divine Abodes," as the ideal social virtues: loving kindness towards all beings, compassion for those who suffer, altruistic joy for those who are well, and equanimity as freedom from arbitrary discrimination. Already a socially engaged form of Buddhism has emerged and no doubt it will become an important development in the future of the religion.

I wish to conclude this talk by drawing attention to the fact that religion today has two crucial tasks to accomplish in responding to the vital problems of our time. One is to help the individual fathom the ultimate truth about his or her own personal existence, to move in the direction of the Ultimate Good, the Unconditioned Reality, wherein true liberation is to be found. The other task is to address the problem of the Manifest Good: the problem of the human community, of promoting peace, harmony and fellowship. The urgency of combining these two tasks was beautifully summed up by the Buddha in a short discourse in the Satipatthana Samyutta. There the Blessed One said:

"Protecting oneself, one protects others,
Protecting others, one protects oneself"


He then explains that the expression "protecting oneself, one protects others" refers to the practice of meditation, which purifies the mind of its defilements and gives insight into the real nature of the world. By "protecting others, one protects oneself" he means the development of the virtues of patience, loving kindness and compassion, by which one safeguards others from harm and suffering. I believe that a commitment to these two great principles — pañña and karuna in Buddhist terms, gnosis and love in Christian terms — is essential if religion today is to guide humanity from the brink of darkness and despair to the realm of spiritual light and freedom.

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/16/13 11:19 PM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
I think the commonality of perceptions of an illusoriness that is allegedly somehow unique to life and being alive these days is that there is not enough charnel ground meditation taking place at western "retreat centers".

- T3 /// the machine that is comin' ta gitcha'




Thanksgiving Strikes Back

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/17/13 6:23 AM as a reply to Psi.
Psi Phi:
Thanksgiving Strikes Back


If it makes you happy

then why are you

so sad?

triplethink /// 2REM / 2WIT / Touche'd & a microphone

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/17/13 11:43 AM as a reply to triple think.
triple think:
Psi Phi:
Thanksgiving Strikes Back


If it makes you happy

then why are you

so sad?

triplethink /// 2REM / 2WIT / Touche'd & a microphone


When I saw the picture I admit I was happy for the birds, sad? Yes, that humans manipulate the food chain to satisfy hungers for greed and taste sensations, sad that I have yet to transcend such base desires and hardwired instincts, maybe not so much sad, but rather disappointed, happy to know it is possible to transcend, we literally can change our minds.

It is not so much that humanity are despicable nasty creatures eating and consuming all in it's path like a mindless viral outbreak encompassing the planet, but that as humans we have the capacity to transcend those same unwholesome tendencies, yet as a whole, humanity remains in a dumbfounded mindless stupor. Just trying to break off from the herd, there's a cliff up ahead. Guess that's why I am on this message board, seeking and finding fellow people that have also chosen to break from the pack, to take the seldom used path...

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
12/17/13 12:12 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi Phi:
...that's why I am on this message board, seeking and finding fellow people that have also chosen to break from the pack, to take the seldom used path...
Noble enough.
Walk on.
When you find the Truth,
become as a Rock
and never Roll away from this Suchness.

- T3

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
path to enlightenment enlightenment intensives enlightenment illusion delusions
Answer
6/10/15 9:56 AM as a reply to IAMTHAT That Ami.
IAMTHAT That Ami:
Why the need for Mahasi Noting, Vipassana, retreats, chasing enlightenment, studying, etc....

EVerything already is the way it is.....but we are told it isnt the way it is and we need Enlightenment, that everything is illusion.

Who's to say Enlightenment isn't illusion. Just because it can be experienced by others.......so can imaginations, and those are clearly not real.

Of course, this is food for thought brought to you by the devils advocate. Hopefully someone can expand on this.



From long I have had the same question if Enlightenment is an illusion too.
Then I stumbled upon a text called the Diamond Sutra.

But first one should study a bit about Emptiness. Emptiness to see things without label. It is like withdrawing your pre-conceived idea about this world, the illusion that we see to the lesser illusionary state in within that is no dependent on our external senses such as eys, nose, tongue , touch and ears.  

For example if we look at the wooden table. We cannot pin point which part gives it a label "Table". Is it the 4 legs, or the top or is the assembly of wood parts that is joined in such a way with nails that makes the top rests on the 4 legs?  If we go further we will see that the wood itself is collection of atoms structured in a particular that gives it a label "wood". Then is assembly of wooden parts or atoms? Atom itself is a label given to collection of electrons, protons and neutrons. We can keep dividing it even further as our technology advances. We may come to a conclusion called the energy that may be again made up of something else. 

So, I can also label the table as an energy. But energy again merely a label. Therefore how to define what we see? 

The table is dependent on 4 legs and a top, the legs dependent on the wood in turn dependent on atoms and so forth is called "interdependence" since there is no such thing as table that exists independently without the help of smaller structures.  This act of deciphering leads to emptiness in everything.

Something that does not exists independently is not concrete hence empty by nature. Empty may also mean that it is a hollow label. A name/label does define what it really is.


Now if we use this analogy on let us say a person whose name is William, then we still can't point out which part is William. The answer would may be that William exists nowhere but in your mind, and through your reference in his mind as well. This reference of giving a picture to oneself is our "Ego" or the idea of "Self" that again is empty in nature. This body is set of chemical reactions but our attachment to it is through our mind. The body is empty.

To realize this one has to let go of all the labels including the idea of self. This emptiness then leads the first step out of illusion. Eventually to a realization called the enlightenment.

Now Enlightenment truly is just a label as well. So is the word Buddha. The Enlightened being choses the illusionary drape called a Buddha for benefit of other deluded sentient beings like humans who feel that something isn't right. Why? Because our true nature is empty and beyond labels. 

In truth Enlightenment is an empty process by the empty Buddha to help (help=is a label for an action in reality cosmos) to rescue the empty beings and move (move=label) to this realization. Then a Buddha even exists the stage of Enlightenment and transcends as beyond truth and false. The duality ends. So does the nature of labelling.

All the retreats like Vipasna discourses and Buddhist Retreats help in quitting the basic muck to at least clear waters. Everything is step by step.The only reason to why enlightenment is preferred because it is one reality that will only cause empty benefits in this empty creation. This is the best thing to do unless you just want to exit this dream like state in one go. You can but when you can have pleasant dream like state where you are in control of certain aspects to benefit others in their dream state then why not?

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
6/12/15 10:46 PM as a reply to Ashit Singh Janeja.
uber important point you explain Ashit; great !

RE: Enlightenment is an Illusion, as is everything else
Answer
6/12/15 11:00 PM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
A professional explanation of Ashit's point by Ven Robina Courtin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fb7ZMNYgmo

listen at least 16minutes , the intro is important . the cup example comes around 15minutes
She prefers using a cup to explain , but its as the table .. empty of inheritent self.