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Fruition and stream entry?

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Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 5/31/14 12:44 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? J C 5/31/14 1:08 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 6/1/14 8:36 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? sawfoot _ 6/1/14 4:04 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 6/2/14 8:26 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Jenny 7/8/14 6:12 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? ftw 7/8/14 6:38 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Daniel M. Ingram 7/9/14 3:54 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 7/10/14 11:35 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Eric M W 7/10/14 9:40 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 7/11/14 9:55 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Eric M W 7/11/14 1:58 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 7/11/14 2:58 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? b man 3/6/15 2:22 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Jenny 8/14/14 2:30 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Daniel Moretti 8/14/14 1:34 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 7/11/14 3:01 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Jenny 8/9/14 3:27 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Jenny 8/9/14 3:41 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Jenny 8/2/14 11:36 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Dream Walker 6/1/14 11:04 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Not Tao 6/2/14 7:01 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 6/3/14 7:53 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Not Tao 6/3/14 2:01 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 6/5/14 10:21 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 6/30/14 1:57 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Dream Walker 6/30/14 5:35 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 7/3/14 8:06 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 7/8/14 11:48 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 8/1/14 2:38 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 8/15/14 8:36 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Daniel Moretti 8/15/14 1:04 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 8/16/14 1:59 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/2/14 8:43 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Small Steps 10/2/14 7:07 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/3/14 9:55 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Eric M W 10/3/14 10:36 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/3/14 11:48 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/5/14 2:53 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/5/14 4:05 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/9/14 10:31 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 1/6/15 11:42 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 2/24/15 8:43 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Jenny 2/24/15 9:08 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 2/24/15 11:34 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Incandescent Flower 2/24/15 2:25 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 2/25/15 8:02 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 3/14/15 11:58 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Not Tao 3/14/15 1:23 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 3/15/15 7:45 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 3/21/15 1:29 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 4/1/15 8:49 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 5/4/15 10:17 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 6/12/15 10:16 AM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Dream Walker 10/3/14 1:49 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/3/14 2:40 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Daniel Moretti 10/5/14 1:10 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/5/14 2:16 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/10/14 5:44 PM
RE: Fruition and stream entry? Ernest Michael Olmos 10/2/14 9:18 AM
Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
5/31/14 12:44 PM
Yesterday I tried, like every other day to keep noticing every sensation, etc. Unlike the other days, this time I was succeeding all the time.
Sounds became "bassier" and louder. Panoramic vision was a lot wider.
There was a lot of space, like I could accomodate thoughts, vision, sound and feelings in a room that suddenly was bigger.
I could see that I was not my thoughts or body (which I couldn't do earlier, at least not with that certainty).
I could accomodate thoughts and, if I didn't like them make them pass.

So, at night, when I meditate, I go to nothingness, like the mind is nowhere (as I usually do).
But this time, attention went to the middle of the head.
I began to feel like someone was pouring water through the front of the head (between the eyes), going backwards to the back of the head. It felt really good.
At some point, attention went to breathing (I really dont know if voluntarily or not) , and I returned (I guess I didnt complete the process?).
Afterwards, pressure in the back of the head. Subtle but constant for some hours.

Anyway, the changes from yesterday remain today, in everything I do.
They are really cool and they help in my daily life in.....everything.

I've been to EQ before and this is different. There is no bliss. Just more room and control of sensations.
EQ feels good but forced, in fact, I could detect suffering in EQ.

The question:
Was that fruition (there was no blip, no loss of conciousness)? Did I attain stream entry?

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
5/31/14 1:08 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
Yesterday I tried, like every other day to keep noticing every sensation, etc. Unlike the other days, this time I was succeeding all the time.
Sounds became "bassier" and louder. Panoramic vision was a lot wider.
There was a lot of space, like I could accomodate thoughts, vision, sound and feelings in a room that suddenly was bigger.
I could see that I was not my thoughts or body (which I couldn't do earlier, at least not with that certainty).
I could accomodate thoughts and, if I didn't like them make them pass.

So, at night, when I meditate, I go to nothingness, like the mind is nowhere (as I usually do).
But this time, attention went to the middle of the head.
I began to feel like someone was pouring water through the front of the head (between the eyes), going backwards to the back of the head. It felt really good.
At some point, attention went to breathing (I really dont know if voluntarily or not) , and I returned (I guess I didnt complete the process?).
Afterwards, pressure in the back of the head. Subtle but constant for some hours.

Anyway, the changes from yesterday remain today, in everything I do.
They are really cool and they help in my daily life in.....everything.

I've been to EQ before and this is different. There is no bliss. Just more room and control of sensations.
EQ feels good but forced, in fact, I could detect suffering in EQ.

The question:
Was that fruition (there was no blip, no loss of conciousness)? Did I attain stream entry?

If there was no blip or loss of consciousness, it wasn't a fruition and you didn't attain stream entry.

It's possibly high Eq, or an A&P event. I think people often forget that until you hit stream entry, A&P comes after Eq, so you're cycling A&P -> DN -> Eq -> A&P.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/1/14 8:36 AM as a reply to J C.
Yoday I had it again, looks like kundalini (very weird kundalini).
I'm probably back in AP.
Definitely gaining insight.

Thanks for the response.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/1/14 11:04 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
“Everything that happens once can never happen again. But everything that happens twice will surely happen a third time.”Paulo Coelho
Just a quote that came to mind.....
If your getting to EQ read this - http://contemplativefitnessbook.com/book-two-theory/the-progress-of-insight-map/#Knowledge_of_Equanimity_Stage_11
Good Luck
~D

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/1/14 4:04 PM as a reply to J C.
J C:

The question:
Was that fruition (there was no blip, no loss of conciousness)? Did I attain stream entry?

If there was no blip or loss of consciousness, it wasn't a fruition and you didn't attain stream entry.

It's possibly high Eq, or an A&P event. I think people often forget that until you hit stream entry, A&P comes after Eq, so you're cycling A&P -> DN -> Eq -> A&P.
You know this for sure because...?

I say this because you do hear reports of yogi's who don't get a blip (that they noticed) yet later their teacher or whoever decide they got stream entry (e.g. suddenly they have access to all the jhanas etc...)

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/2/14 8:26 AM as a reply to sawfoot _.
Thanks for the info.

For what I can see, I'm in high EQ or very near to stream entry.

I'll try the jhanas and see what happens.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/2/14 7:01 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Actually, what you describe here is incredible similar to what I've been seeing lately. There is pressure in the forehead and the back of the skull (under the ledge area) and I get a very strange bubbling or "trickling" effect at the back of the head.

A few weeks ago one of those trickles caught hold and I lost awareness of everything except a kind of complete stillness...

So, at night, when I meditate, I go to nothingness, like the mind is nowhere (as I usually do).


I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you referring to the 7th jhana (sphere of nothingness) or a kind of choice-less awareness meditation?

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/3/14 7:53 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
The nothingness I think is choice-less awareness. I just let go. It's not 7th jhana although it looks like the higher jhanas. Concentration is strong, but diffused, with no focus.

Unfortunately, I have a huge muscle contracture on the left side (jaw-neck-shoulder), so I use some of the time of my sitting to do some stretches.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/3/14 2:01 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
That's very interesting. I'd say we're in the same boat, whatever that boat might be. Maybe this is equanimity - there's definately been a profound change in my perspective.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/5/14 10:21 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
That's very interesting. I'd say we're in the same boat, whatever that boat might be. Maybe this is equanimity - there's definately been a profound change in my perspective.
If we are in the same boat, then try looking closely at thoughts, specially when you are about to do something. Look to the drive thought, to the doer. Look at the thought that resist doing things. Let it carry on. You´ll find it all resolves without your input!

Hope it helps.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/30/14 1:57 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Well, time has passed and it certainly wasn't stream entry.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/30/14 5:35 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
Well, time has passed and it certainly wasn't stream entry.
More feedback might be useful for others who experience similar things.
Whats happening now?
~D

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/3/14 8:06 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Ernest Michael Olmos:
Well, time has passed and it certainly wasn't stream entry.
More feedback might be useful for others who experience similar things.
Whats happening now?
~D
Some unity, no self experiencies (like I cannot move or I'm not myself). More flickering, impermanence.
But the most important is drop of effort or attachment to states or goals. More spontaneity.
The recognition of some insights that were unpleasant.

Impermanence is begining to erode structures of thought. Sometimes the mind is melted into the present. The habit of solidifying things is weakening. At the peak of impermanence (strong), no self happens (weak) and some suffering understanding (weak) that produces deep compassion towards everyone in daily life.

Meditation subtly changed my attitudes towards certain things in daily life. I'm trying to organize my daily life to be able to meditate better.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/8/14 11:48 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Sleep reduced from 8-9 hours to 6 hours a day (for a week now).
I always slept a lot, so this is really weird.

Not so attached to panoramic vision, unity experiences, etc.
It's like I'm missing something and not only I don't know what it is but also I don't know how to find it.

I've experienced formations (or so I think) for a day long. I'm pretty sure they were formations because of there was no thought for a long time (10 hours), only relations between phenomena. I even had long talks without thinking. Everything seemed.....logical, obvious and determined.

So I think I'm in equanimity.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/8/14 6:12 PM as a reply to J C.
I'm really confused by this notion that one falls back to AP from EQ before SE. I was chatting here with someone yesterday who said one falls back to A&P instead of the very beginning only AFTER stream entry. I think that the source of confusion is MCTB itself. I never could get this straight, even during my fifth reading of the book. I guess I need to post this as a separate question; maybe Daniel can clear up what MCTB is saying about this topic.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/8/14 6:38 PM as a reply to Jenny.
Yeah,
wtf

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/9/14 3:54 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Well, some people cross the A&P, hit the Dark Night, get to Equanimity, and get Stream Entry. They are the very lucky ones, as this is extremely unusual.

The vast majority of people who cross the A&P and then subsequently hit the Dark Night won't get to Equanimity in any easily recognizable way the first (or even second or third...) time around, and will then fall back, and later on recross the A&P, hit the Dark Night again, and at some point will get to Equanimity.

The vast majority of those will not get stream entry after attaining Equanimity, but will again fall back and likely recross the A&P again at some point.

Walking up and down this territory again and again is very common before getting stream entry, as the lessons at each stage are subtle, not easily learned, and they must be learned sufficiently for stream entry to arise.

I personally crossed the A&P at least 6 times in daily life before going on retreats, and so had at least 6 Dark Night episodes during that time, wasn't sure I ever crossed to Equanimity during that period, and then on retreat crossed the A&P on my first two retreats and hit the Dark Night again, also without an obvious Equanimity phase, and then crossed the A&P on my third retreat, hit the Dark Night, got to Equanimity, retreat ended, and then I fell back into the Dark Night, and then finally, on my fourth retreat, crossed the A&P, hit the Dark Night, got to Equanimity, and finally landed Stream Entry. This is a very normal sort of general pattern, and I call it the Standard Pattern for this reason. Notice descriptions here of very similar things by many, many practitioners.

Helpful?

Daniel

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/10/14 11:35 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I agree.

I'll give an impression that I have, consider it as an opinion, nothing more.

There seems to be a "Jhana factor" in the background of every phase.
AP=Jhana 1, DN=Jhana 2-3, EQ=Jhana 4.

I do notice that when I fall into AP, and I get into Jhana 4, that Jhana 4 is different (it has qualities of AP) from the same Jhana 4 when I'm on Equanimity.
When I'm on AP and I get to Jhana 1, that Jhana is very "impressive" and the others are "softer", the same happens when I'm on EQ and I get to Jhana 4.

About progress, I don't have the options of retreats. I have a job, a wife and pets. I have a stiff spine (hours of working with a PC in a bad posture).
So, my progress won't be as "fast" as others.

Two days ago I hit again a very strong AP. I think I'm still in it.

One easy way for me to determin in which phase I am is the sex drive.
AP=Need, DN=Aversion, EQ=No need, no aversion.

I'm not so sure about the lessons thing. If each stage carried lessons, you should stop cycling after SE (all lessons learned).

Also, I would not consider EQ>DN>AP as a mark of progress. I would consider how much insight you got from that stages.
So, for me:
AP (no insight) - DN (no insight) - EQ (some insight) is worse than AP (lots of insight).
In fact, for me at least, insight is the only thing that matters.

An analogy here (not sure a useful one). You can pass an exam without learning or studying too much. In fact you can pass a lots of exams and get a degree without studying too much. The exams are sequential in time, inevitable. What you learn is not.
That said, the amount learned and the things that you learned that made a difference are the things that count in the long term.

Again, just an opinion.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/10/14 9:40 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
There seems to be a "Jhana factor" in the background of every phase.
AP=Jhana 1, DN=Jhana 2-3, EQ=Jhana 4.

Yes, the vipassana jhanas and samatha jhanas are closely related. EQ and jhana 4 occur in the same stratum of mind, using KF's terminology. You can actually slide back and forth between concentration and insight stages with some practice, it's a matter of how much you allow the 3C's to show themselves, if that makes sense. Jhana 1 is actually associated with the pre-vipassana stages due to the whole sustained effort aspect, AP is jhana 2, DN is jhana 3, etc...
About progress, I don't have the options of retreats. I have a job, a wife and pets. I have a stiff spine (hours of working with a PC in a bad posture).
So, my progress won't be as "fast" as others.

I don't have the option of retreats either. I have three kids, one on the way, a wife, and a full-time job. The good news is, I made it all the way to EQ in these circumstances, and I actually didn't even know what the Progress of Insight was. It only took me a couple of months from A&P to EQ. How many hours a day do you watch TV? Are you mindful at work? Do you note throughout the day? Do you practice any kind of sleep or dream yoga or do you just hit the sack and conk out? All these are important considerations. Enlightenment for householders is very possible, check out the book on Dipa Ma for some inspiration.

Some people spend years on retreat and yet fail utterly at insight practice.

I'm not so sure about the lessons thing. If each stage carried lessons, you should stop cycling after SE (all lessons learned).

I can't speak for Daniel, but I think what he meant was, insight has to mature before you can move on to the next insight stage. That's the way it is referred to in more traditional texts, insight maturing. It's difficult to describe how this happens. You just have to "get it." The best way to do this is practice, practice, practice, and a sense of surrendering to the process.\

Cycling is related to the way the mind relates to phenomena, not necessarily to whether you have learned every lesson of the stages.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/11/14 9:55 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Thank for the book on Dipa Ma idea. I'll read it.
Good idea about yoga sleep (I'll check that out).

Regarding progress, I've noticed that insight momentum is better that insight dispersed. Daniel said something somewhere about rolling a boulder over a hill. I agree with him.
That's not to say that I haven't been moving forward with my practice and getting results.

About the cycling, I don't know for sure.
There seems to be some energy thing related to them.
Stages are VERY useful to know where you are and keep practicing.
They are also useful in the morality area, so you don't wreck your life. I can't thank Daniel enough for the descriptions of them.

Now, stages as THE mark of insight progress, I'm still not so sure.
They do relate to insight progress (i'm not saying that they don't), but they are not the only markers.
My opinion anyway.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/11/14 1:58 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Here's the link to the book about Dipa Ma on amazon. She believed you could get enlightened while ironing the laundry, and apparently she taught a few students who did just that. Good stuff.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/11/14 2:58 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
Thanks a lot. I'll read it. Seems good.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/11/14 3:01 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Well, some people cross the A&P, hit the Dark Night, get to Equanimity, and get Stream Entry. They are the very lucky ones, as this is extremely unusual.

The vast majority of people who cross the A&P and then subsequently hit the Dark Night won't get to Equanimity in any easily recognizable way the first (or even second or third...) time around, and will then fall back, and later on recross the A&P, hit the Dark Night again, and at some point will get to Equanimity.

The vast majority of those will not get stream entry after attaining Equanimity, but will again fall back and likely recross the A&P again at some point.

Walking up and down this territory again and again is very common before getting stream entry, as the lessons at each stage are subtle, not easily learned, and they must be learned sufficiently for stream entry to arise.

I personally crossed the A&P at least 6 times in daily life before going on retreats, and so had at least 6 Dark Night episodes during that time, wasn't sure I ever crossed to Equanimity during that period, and then on retreat crossed the A&P on my first two retreats and hit the Dark Night again, also without an obvious Equanimity phase, and then crossed the A&P on my third retreat, hit the Dark Night, got to Equanimity, retreat ended, and then I fell back into the Dark Night, and then finally, on my fourth retreat, crossed the A&P, hit the Dark Night, got to Equanimity, and finally landed Stream Entry. This is a very normal sort of general pattern, and I call it the Standard Pattern for this reason. Notice descriptions here of very similar things by many, many practitioners.

Helpful?

Daniel
I'll give another thought, just food for thought.

It seems to me that the stages and jhanas relate to attitudes that we have regarding things that are important to us or blockages. Like a learning process.
For example, lets say we have an negative attitude regarding money. So:

We change that attitude, the mind feels released and focus on how to get money and how good it is (AP).
We find that we cannot make that much money and we even loose some (DN).
We find that we did our best effort and gained some and loosed some (EQ).

Now, these stages apply the same to insight (3Cs), even more because insight really changes the way we look at things.

So, if you are at EQ in insight but something changes drastically in your life you instantly focus and go back to AP.
It seems that the mind doesn't keep "multitasking" like: Money = AP, Insight = EQ.

The other difference is that, for some people the same attitude is used for everything and some make compartments. And sure there is leakage.

So, the stages of insight are the same stages that we happen for everything and it has to do with how the mind copes with disruptional information.
And, for sure, insight is disruptional information.

Most of the problems occur because insight stages leak that state into a lot of important things in our life (not insight related), where we are in a different "stage".

Again, just food for thought.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/1/14 2:38 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Reorganizing. Adding more "virtue" in activities and kicking bad habits (mind habits too).

Not noticing any improvements (in fact, all "wow" experiencies vanished or I do not pay attention to them), but seems like something is moving "right". Like I'm doing what I was supposed to be doing from a long time.

Very hard to explain or put into words.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/2/14 11:36 PM as a reply to J C.
I thought MCTB said that pre-path one falls all the way back to Mind&Body, that only after First Path does one start at A&P after falling from EQ. I find this topic unclear in MCTB, and people on the forum keep saying different things. emoticon

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/9/14 3:27 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Thanks, Daniel. I think SE happened today. If not, it was a really good impression of it. I'm going to take the advice of not drawing firm conclusions, but wait and see.

I had a very clear A&P phase and culminating A&P event last July (2013). Then DN promptly ensued, where I cycled around and around and around until the second week of June 2014. I had barely grazed low EQ a few times. But after second week in June, the EQ just took hold, formations showed themselves at every sit.

My apprehension of formations is usually visual, but until today I wasn't seeing the beginnings and endings clearly. Today they became crystal clear, very regular, much more slowed down than usual, and I effortlessly stayed with each arising and each passing away. These are visual for me--though it can occur in the dimension of sound and even tactile feeling, too. In a kind of pre-verbal way, today I saw the arisings almost as blooms. And then I watched the passings-away, and the passings-away seemed like black, inverted blooms. So I had the sense that the "gone!" was also, still, a kind of arising, and I had the sense that this was so precisely because of the contextual frame that was the "real" arising, now known to be "gone." So, several more of these arisings and passings and then--what the hell was that? I don't know if I can even find words. But "I" was just gone as sense recognition returned from . . . where? And that "nothing in the seeing but the seen" now makes perfect sense!

Now, this said, I don't recall a "bliss wave." But something was very strange after all this. I was in a group setting, and right when sensory experience was kicking back in, the mediation bell rang, and I had the strangest feeling of not being able to come out of meditation. I even walked up to the cafe with my meditation friends, totally in a diffused meditative way. . . . This strangeness lasted about 10 minutes, and then I felt normal.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/9/14 3:41 AM as a reply to Jenny.
I must be one of the "lucky ones," because if this was SE, it was ridiculously easy and fast to attain. I've been meditating only 3 years, never been on retreat, seldom sit more than 30 minutes, have dropouts bad during DNs, and generally have been comparatively half-assed about the whole practice, for reasons I don't know. I had A&P phenomena at my second or third sit ever. I have had a lot of weird experiences since a teenager, some terrifying, and think I was an unwitting DNY for decades. I don't want to get hung up on the story of how this was fast and easy for me once I read MCTB, but I would like to figure out, if possible, why it may have been that way--in case it could help others.

But first I better shut up and wait to see if this seeming SE was for real.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/14/14 2:30 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
One easy way for me to determin in which phase I am is the sex drive.
AP=Need, DN=Aversion, EQ=No need, no aversion.

I've noticed this, too, as a clear way to tell. I think SE happened for me last Friday, and return of sex drive, and a kind of heady exuberance, is telling me that I'm now back at A&P. 

I'm not so sure about the lessons thing. If each stage carried lessons, you should stop cycling after SE (all lessons learned).

I never know what to make of it when people say that the "lessons" of the Dark Night have to be learned before stream entry can happen. I went through two rounds of really horrific Dark Night from last August till this past June. I pretty much quit practicing, went on antidepressant medication so as not to end up on a psych ward, and wanted only to escape the Dark Night and consciousness itself. So, if by "lessons," one means learning that the Dark Night sucks . . . then, yeah, I "got" that lesson loud and clear. But I really don't recall anything else as a grand lesson or insight. Maybe that is what Review is for. I came to the Desire for Deliverance when I finally figured out that this abject horror could stop no other way than by Path. Maybe the lesson pre-SE is just that extreme suffering points the way out. I don't know.



RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/14/14 1:34 PM as a reply to Jenny.
Jen Pearly:
I never know what to make of it when people say that the "lessons" of the Dark Night have to be learned before stream entry can happen.

The only thing you can really "learn" from dark night experiences is that a) they suck, and that b) you have to surrender to them. This is how you progress from dark night to equanimity. The knowledge that deepens is that you have nowhere to run from these dark night feelings. Instead, you must choose to surrender to them-- after all, they're here to stay. If you push them away, they will stay. If you observe them and allow them to be, they will pass very soon.

Of course, other ideas might strike you at the intellectual level though, they just won't really progress your insight forward. I often get very aware of karmic patterns of thought during the dark night, and make personal commitments to avoid those patterns as best as possible moving forward.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/15/14 8:36 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Still cycling.

Someone said that when you fall back you go back to "Mind and Body" (if you haven't got SE).
I tend to agree with that.

Two new experiences. When walking on open spaces, the mind get "spacefull", panoramic vision and two things happen:
- I kind of seem like observing from the distance all experience, usually from a higher position (visually).
- There is a "deja vu" moment when experience "catches" with yourself, like a time displacement of part of the experience that gets slower and then it "catches on". Like a slow motion thing that accelerates and melts into the present time.

I'm pretty sure I have hit equanimity (I can definitely relate to the James Bond thing when I'm in it) and I'm cycling back and forth.

A thing I found useful when in daily life is to alternate between noting, effort in seeing sensations, feelings, thoughts, etc and deep breathing, relaxing.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/15/14 1:04 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Two new experiences. When walking on open spaces, the mind get "spacefull", panoramic vision and two things happen:
- I kind of seem like observing from the distance all experience, usually from a higher position (visually).
- There is a "deja vu" moment when experience "catches" with yourself, like a time displacement of part of the experience that gets slower and then it "catches on". Like a slow motion thing that accelerates and melts into the present time.
I'm pretty sure I have hit equanimity (I can definitely relate to the James Bond thing when I'm in it) and I'm cycling back and forth.
A thing I found useful when in daily life is to alternate between noting, effort in seeing sensations, feelings, thoughts, etc and deep breathing, relaxing.

Keep going! You'll undoubtedly attain stream-entry very shortly. Looking back, those experiences of "space" are what will grow and ripen with stream-entry-- at least in my experience. You're on the cusp!

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/16/14 1:59 PM as a reply to Daniel Moretti.
Daniel Moretti:
Two new experiences. When walking on open spaces, the mind get "spacefull", panoramic vision and two things happen:
- I kind of seem like observing from the distance all experience, usually from a higher position (visually).
- There is a "deja vu" moment when experience "catches" with yourself, like a time displacement of part of the experience that gets slower and then it "catches on". Like a slow motion thing that accelerates and melts into the present time.
I'm pretty sure I have hit equanimity (I can definitely relate to the James Bond thing when I'm in it) and I'm cycling back and forth.
A thing I found useful when in daily life is to alternate between noting, effort in seeing sensations, feelings, thoughts, etc and deep breathing, relaxing.

Keep going! You'll undoubtedly attain stream-entry very shortly. Looking back, those experiences of "space" are what will grow and ripen with stream-entry-- at least in my experience. You're on the cusp!
Thanks. I'll keep meditating.
I'm moving forward on a lot of fronts, and I have to be careful with my knees.

Congratulations for getting SE!

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/2/14 8:43 AM as a reply to Daniel Moretti.
Something happened today. I was meditating in the early morning (5am).
My mind got caught in a story (as usual when I'm very quiet). I was beliving the story and suddenly there was a shift and I "woke up".
There was a discontinuity.
I felt extremely still. I somehow could understand something about making stories, beliefs.
I could (and still can) "feel" the process of "painting" my life with beliefs.
I felt a lot lighter and felt a lot of confidence. So, I made some resolutions.

While having breakfast I knew something had changed. It felt unimportant at first but it continues to shine. I felt kind of stupid too. Like, "this was it?".

Now, the things that have changed:

- I now "believe" in meditation. Before this, I always had some doubts.
- I can't "harden" stories, assumptions, beliefs. The mind is lighter.
- I can concentrate better. A joyful concentration.
- The mind has this tendency of "waking up", of being "brighter" on its own. Before it had the tendency to "sleep", "doubt".
- There's no effort whatsoever. In fact, I feel I could not go back to the way I was before even if I wanted.
- I feel a lot more my emotions.
- I do feel some pressure in the back of my head, but there is little effect on the body (compared to other experiences).
  It's all about the mind, about understanding.

In a sentence, the mind seems lighter, a lot lighter.

Another important point. I wasn't looking for that experience. It happened completely on its own.

I think it could be stream entry.
I'll give it some time to be sure anyway.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/2/14 9:18 AM as a reply to Daniel Moretti.
Another thing.

Today I have this tendency to smile, to laugh. I can't contain some deep feeling of joy or grattitude. I cried of joy (really, the feeling is that strong). It's a very profound sense of relief. I even had trouble breathing.

This is very rare because I'm not the emotional kind of person.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/2/14 7:07 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
I think it could be stream entry.
I'll give it some time to be sure anyway.
From what you've written, things are different, and hopefully you can use the objective sense of that to help demark this moment in time. Don't worry so much about whether it was specifically stream entry or not, and you'll sleep (even) easier emoticon

I think many of us feel the need to have the attainment confirmed, but at some point you may come to see that this confirmation is really pretty irrelevant. If it results in making the experience fit the description, it could even be very counter-productive (I wish I wouldn't have spent so much time wondering/researching/enumerating "signs" of stream entry). Rather, take the experience as an experience, enjoy whatever fruits may have resulted from it, continue to practice diligently and with good purpose.

I'm a much happier meditator for having dropped the need to categorize my experiences on (and really, off) the cushion.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 9:55 AM as a reply to Small Steps.
Thanks for the advice.

The most amazing, weird experiences I had were in the a&p phase, by far. I learned a lot from them.

I was very dissapointed when I realized that a very powerful experience that I had was not SE.
It sort of downgraded it like: "nah, thats just a&p". On the other hand, I knew it wasn't SE.
I could feel it fading, each up less strong than each down. They were also inestable.

I had given up on SE. I meditated out of habit.

Regarding the experience I had, it was very different from all other experiences:

It was unexpected. I was still. There was nearly no body phenomena. I felt like falling in the story and then I "woke up", staring at something in front of me (the wall?).
There was no rapture, no bliss, no EQ. Just this very profound relief that some paradox in the mind was finally resolved. The grattitude for this relief is inmense.

In daily life, the mind feels "softer", yet brighter, like when you stare at a picture, the stars or clouds and the lines between you and the thing you see or think about begin to blur.
The connections between things, thoughts, etc are "difussed". It's not that you see them difusse or blur, they already appear or feel difussed, softer, lighter.
It's a definite change of perspective and I can't go back even if I wanted. I can feel a lot less stress, but I really don't know how did it dissapear.

Categorizing experiences is useful if you can manage the hit on the ego, comparisons, neurotic stuff, and use the information to your advantage.
It depends a lot on how you feel. The latest cycles I didn't know in what stage I was.
If you feel categorizing is not good for your practice, don't do it.

For now, I do claim SE, not carved in stone but pretty sure. I don't worry too much about it, anyway.

Good luck with your practice and congratulations for the experiences that you had.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 10:36 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 11:48 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
No more blips or discontinuities.
I do feel some continued light pressure in the back of my head (every moment) that intensifies with time.
I'm trying not to force the mind to do anything (I'm not even noting) to understand what had changed (which is very subtle yet pervasive).

My eyes are more open. I really feel more awake.
The shift between things (thoughts, visions, hearing, etc) in the mind is a lot faster and smoother now because there is less "conceptualizing".
This results in better concentration and, when in a place with a lot of people an inmense joy.
The joy comes because now I can focus on many things faster and the vision is brigther. And the most important thing, for some reason, the mind doesn't get tired of doing so.
The mind delights more on things.

No sense of cycling yet.

I'm going to try to incline my mind towards a blip and I tell you how it goes.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 1:49 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
For now, I do claim SE, not carved in stone but pretty sure. I don't worry too much about it, anyway.


hey congrats! (claps with one hand)
I'm glad you are enjoying where you have gotten to.
Good work, whether carved or not.
~D

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 2:40 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Ernest Michael Olmos:
For now, I do claim SE, not carved in stone but pretty sure. I don't worry too much about it, anyway.


hey congrats! (claps with one hand)
I'm glad you are enjoying where you have gotten to.
Good work, whether carved or not.
~D
Thanks. I'm still trying to integrate and understand.

From time to time I "check" if it dissapears.
I want to use this time well because soon, as I get used to it, I won't remember how it was perception before.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/5/14 1:10 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Congrats! Enjoy having the same life problems with exponentially more capacity to handle them calmly!

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/5/14 2:16 PM as a reply to Daniel Moretti.
Daniel Moretti:
Congrats! Enjoy having the same life problems with exponentially more capacity to handle them calmly!
Thanks a lot.

This forum helped a lot in the process.
To all that have posted in it, thanks a lot.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/5/14 2:53 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?
Change in perspective holding. Still no blips or discontinuties. Tried to incline my mind towards a blip....nothing happened.
About cycling, yesterday I thought I was in a&p, but not sure.

Yesterday something happened. All day long there was "building up concentration". I could easily "see" impermanence or no self at will. At night, before sleep, concentration was "solid", rock solid stillness of mind, like I could not handle that much concentration. 

Woke up in the middle of the night (2am) and the mind start feeling like "posibilities", like some things that you normaly cant change can.
There was no deep fear, no sense of being with somebody, just this "will energy".
Began to meditate, tried to shift the "will power" to metta (didnt work, at least not completely), then made some resolutions, then focus on the breath and the body. I do have a glass of water with me and I could hear a movement, like a drop of water in it (at least I think so).

The thing is, I had the "fruition like" certainty that things that arent so rational are possible. Like, "I dont understand how it is happenning but it is happening". No rational things include: voices, future, doing things to others, etc. I was really freaked out.

Didn't sleep all night long. In the morning I slept two hours (very, very deep rest) and I woke with a kind of hangover. Like drained but not rested. I still have this headache.
Now concentration is building again (and now I'm not so sure thats a good thing). I can feel the stillness, "moving".

The worst of all is that you would think that with this much concentration, jhana would be a piece of cake, but for some reason I can't do the pleasure thing, like it doesn't feel right.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/5/14 4:05 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
I'd like to add one thing that I remember.

When I was in the middle of the night, after metta (didn't work), resolutions, irrationals things, etc.
I put my hands wide open in the floor and tried to "feel grounded". I think some energy moved doing good to the body.
The experience was not only mental but physical as well.

Yesterday morning, in yoga, the relationship between body-mind was a lot better. I thought it all was about better mind-power. But now I'm not so sure. Mind cannot make a muscle strech more without pain. Concentration cannot change the body in significant ways (right?)

I'm moving on a lot of fronts in the "morality-lifestyle" thing.

I do not post about physical things, because physical things (yoga, diet, exercise, etc) help on meditation but are not a requirement, and are usually ruled out as causes or consequences. Besides, they are very personal.

But yesterday experience makes me take notice that the body-mind relationship is not that simple described when strong concentration is accessed.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/9/14 10:31 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?
Change in perspective remains, strong.
Regarding the blip, the other day I almost got one. I felt the stillness, and it was like someone was looking at me, right in front of my face.

I have to be careful because I feel so good (superman thing).
In my opinion, humility and honesty are great assets in the path (and I really should cultivate more of those).

I've been noticing differences when I focus on senses (eyesight, hearing, etc) and when I focus on feelings (noting practice).
I'm pretty sure I have to notice feelings to move forward, and I guess noting senses could make a review of the previous path up to fruition?

I guess it's a good idea to notice everything (and I do that), but with special focus on feelings (specially when with people), to move forward.

I've been reading the dho regarding the middle paths.
I thank all who have posted there (found very good tips).

Regarding the claim, I'm still pretty sure about it (evidence very strong), but if at some point evidence suggest otherwise (long time without any new fruitions?), I will "unclaim it", have no problem with that.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/10/14 5:44 PM as a reply to Daniel Moretti.
Daniel Moretti:
Congrats! Enjoy having the same life problems with exponentially more capacity to handle them calmly!
Ironically, the problem I have is that I can't share any of this with anybody but you (thank you guys).
Today I even had to "dissimulate" the big smile i've been wearing all week. People look at me and think (why so happy?).
Even worse, I can feel the ego, the "I'm know something that you don't" thing, and I have to keep it under control.

To anyone with doubt about how (or if) to talk to people who are not into this about practice:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/98527?_19_redirect=%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fdiscussion%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fsearch%3F_19_redirect%3D%252Fweb%252Fguest%252Fdiscussion%26_19_breadcrumbsCategoryId%3D0%26_19_searchCategoryIds%3D0%26_19_keywords%3Dtoxic

One of Daniels best threads. I could't agree more.

Today I carefully approached telling someone and reaction wasn't good (no harm done).
Won't happen again.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
1/6/15 11:42 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?
Well, it's been two months.
No more blips or discontinuities (even when I incline my mind towards one pretty hard).
Still pretty sure it was SE. Still not written in stone.

Now I'm pretty sure I'm in EQ (my guess is medium-high EQ). Solving my back-neck problems. Concentration is improved. I do have this "lightness" toward things.

For me there are two possibilities:
- I didn't get SE and I am still cycling towards SE.
- I had the resolution to move towards second path, so I may be in new territory and may have skipped review.

Now some opinions I have nowdays:

"From my point of view nowadays, I do realize that insight is about understanding or learning and, as such, is different from pleasure.
When you learn to ride a bike or understand a difficult equation you have a moment of profound pleasure, then the pleasure subsides but the understanding or learning remains.
Insight meditation is about understanding something profound about our senses, ourself, the world and the relationship of the three."

"A dog can feel profound pain and pleasure (in fact, most of the pain and plesure is due to lack of understanding).
There is pain in not understanding something that is so close and fundamental to us.
That pain, from my point of view, is not physical, but similar to be in a place and not knowing whats going on, or having some theory that is constantly refuted by experience."

So, regarding SE, I'll have to wait and see.
I'll keep practicing, thats for sure.

I lost the habit of waking up and meditating in the early morning. It was a very good habit.
Even if you feel you are wasting your time because you feel sleepy and can't concentrate well, somehow in the early morning there is some clarity or lack of barriers that can be most useful for insight meditation.
My opinion anyway.

Oh, and happy new year to  everyone who is reading this thread!

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
2/24/15 8:43 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?
Well, some time has passed and I didn't have anything like another cessation (I had what looked like one the 02/Oct/14).That said, things have moved along.

On the couch:

All the usuals: bliss, stillness, flickering, low jhana, some let go and out of body experiences.
However, these have been sporadic. Lots of aversion to meditation and difficulty in concentration.
Definitely I have been in the Dark Night for some time.

I've been using breath counting to start. And really trying not to move and be quiet. And body scanning.
I didn't use any mantras or mandalas (I do miss the bliss-concentration states they easily produce).

From time to time I can feel the clinging to experience, the rejection of suffering.
However, when I feel the clinging, I get in a no clinging (aversion to clinging) which doesn't produce much insight.
Sometimes, when I'm very still, I can feel the suffering, the distortion and great compassion arises.

Nowadays, it does seem like something has ended (DN?) and I can concentrate more. I have this feeling that no matter what you do, you can't move along if you're not ready to.
Still not sure what makes you ready.
I do think that the moment that you understand the nature of the suffering of the DN, the DN is over.
So, to move along, you have to feel the suffering completely (and a lot of it is hidden).

Still consider very good habits to meditate in the early morning and to make open air walks.

From time to time, when frustated to make progress, I tried to feel the "who am I" question which did produce some insight.

Also, when really still, I felt a flow-pressure moving from the front of my head to the back of my head, to the middle of the chest. Back and forth. It was very...solid, like something was really moving there.

Never had something like that, ever. All the energy flows I had have been...flows. This was very slow and solid.
Some kundalini flows also (those are usuals for me).

Off the couch:

Some "right speech" experiments that lasted a week (and that I recommend).
Lots of habit changes. Lots of clinging-aversion to all sort of things (specially common pleasures and pain).

The usuals have happened too: panoramic vision, stillness, falling like experiences, doer - no doer and fast noting.
However, I have not been attracted to them, so I couldn't make them last or produce anything.

I really have been trying to integrate meditation with daily life in a way that produce some synergy and benefits both.
While I haven't achieved a lot, it is still a lot more that if I have not been trying, emoticon.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
2/24/15 9:08 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
I got stream entry Aug. 8, 2014. I never had another fruition until second path, which just happened Jan. 29.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
2/24/15 11:34 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Jenny:
I got stream entry Aug. 8, 2014. I never had another fruition until second path, which just happened Jan. 29.
Thanks a lot for the info.

I'll just have to keep moving then.
I'm pretty sure I am moving towards second path because the weeks after SE (if it was SE) were very, very intense (AP?).
I also had the strong resolution to move forward.
The other possibility is that I didn't get SE.

Did you get the SE t-shirt and frappucino? emoticon 
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5631263

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
2/24/15 2:25 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
All evidence points to SE for me.

The intense effects are also referred to as the afterglow. You notice that the relationship you have with your senses and sense of self is changed; some of that will fade with the subsiding of the afterglow, some of that will be permanent. You mentioned that feelings (good/bad/neutral) seem to be the next area of investigation; for me, 2nd Path was very much based in that aggregate more than any other. This idea that you saw ahead where you would have to investigate for the next path (feelings) also agrees with my experience of afterglow. There will be no telling "for sure" until you have a grasp of fruition, but even then, after 2nd Path the maps and concepts start breaking up, so get used to things being a little up in the air! And don't worry too much about fruition. There's no need to push for it, it's more about being able to let it happen.

So, as I see it, congrats!

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
2/25/15 8:02 AM as a reply to Incandescent Flower.
Incandescent Flower:
All evidence points to SE for me.

The intense effects are also referred to as the afterglow. You notice that the relationship you have with your senses and sense of self is changed; some of that will fade with the subsiding of the afterglow, some of that will be permanent. You mentioned that feelings (good/bad/neutral) seem to be the next area of investigation; for me, 2nd Path was very much based in that aggregate more than any other. This idea that you saw ahead where you would have to investigate for the next path (feelings) also agrees with my experience of afterglow. There will be no telling "for sure" until you have a grasp of fruition, but even then, after 2nd Path the maps and concepts start breaking up, so get used to things being a little up in the air! And don't worry too much about fruition. There's no need to push for it, it's more about being able to let it happen.

So, as I see it, congrats!
Thanks a lot. I too still believe it was SE.
However, as you very accurately mentioned, I feel a lot "up in the air".
I'll have to get used to it.

I've been reading a lot in the dho of the middle paths, and while it has been very helpful, there isn't as much advice as there is for SE.
Besides, what I experienced after the afterglow ended was not in the maps, it was complete disorientation.

Again, thanks to all who have posted, you've been very helpful.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
3/6/15 2:22 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Here's the link to the book about Dipa Ma on amazon. She believed you could get enlightened while ironing the laundry, and apparently she taught a few students who did just that. Good stuff.

haha! I'd always hoped there would be more to ironing than met the eye :-)))

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
3/14/15 11:58 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?
Well, I'm at EQ now. It's a flat EQ, similar to the one I got before the blip.
Like before, there is a tendency to take care of my life, etc and not to worry about meditation that much.

My practice is very calm. Like I can get muy mind empty and be at peace, but it's a "too calm peace".

Walking I had, like before, this sense that everything moves in slow motion. Unlike before, it is tranquil. Before there was a little bit of excitment. 

Now, I do know that some time after this "stage", fruition came (if it was a fruition), and the deciding factor was to not to want it.

But, remembering that experience, I can definitely not NOT want it (it was a really good experience).

For anyone not keeping up with the messeges, the experience involved a blip, not looking after it, huge relief, the experience itself was quiet, I "woke up" staring at something. I was about to think about something, and then there was a transition, like something moving, and then I woke up.
For some time after the experience I was really happy. Then massive concentration happened (2nd AP?), that involved the powers. It was 4 months ago and I haven't had any other blip. I had the resolution to go after 2nd (not sure if it was a good idea...)

I'm not sure if I shoud try to do things, or just stay with things. I'm not sure if I shoud make an effort to "note" the "unsureness".

If I do need to forget or not want another fruition, well, that's not going to happen. I do rememeber it, I do remember that it came after a stage just like this (this time this stage is "flatter", calmer).

How can you incline the mind towards something without wanting it?

About the stage I'm in, it feels good, like normal. But there is some expectation that I can simply cannot understand or drop.
Besides, I still have some doubts about disclosure, about what really changed, about what it really meant.
Some part of me saying, "it not a big deal, you're still the same, a regular person, be humble" and some part saying.... well, the opposite.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
3/14/15 1:23 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Why not just let go of this idea that you can't want it?  Isn't that just effort to control experience?  Of course you want good feelings to happen!

Equanimity can be a paradox if you look at it as a kind of acceptance or letting go.  You have to let go of everything to get equanimity, but you want equanimity because it feels good!  Right?  I think this happens because we lie to ourselves, though.  The thing we call "equanimity" isn't really equanimity, which is the ability to bear stress and pain with grace, it's just complete contentment to the point where we don't care much what happens.  So it isn't about letting go at all, it's more like transcending unpleasantness.

I had an insight into this a little while ago that might be helpful.  Equanimity happens when you can see, very clearly, that thoughts and feelings are two separate processes.  I.e. thinking happens in one place, feelings happen in another place, and you don't have to connect them at all.  The reason acceptance or letting go can trigger this split is because you can hit a sort of magic middle where neither one is affecting the other and they are both allowed to go on separately.  You can think any thought and there are no reactions, and you can let go of any need to control your feelings because the thought stream isn't disrupting anything.  The feelings even out into a perfect rest, and the thought stream is allowed to go on unimpeded.  It's perfect freedom.  I can't tell you exactly how to use this insight at the moment, haha, but it seems to point to something else besides acceptance.  Maybe a better way to think of it is like stopping reactions to thoughts.  So the thought that's bothering you right now is, "I want a fruition."  Maybe just watch for reactions to that thought and drop the reaction rather than the thought.  EDIT: Also, if you can "inhabit the body" this will help see the feelings in action and let you lose track of the thought stream in relation.  It seems to free up the feelings for me.

All that said, I haven't had any fruitions, so maybe I'm talking about something else, but it might be worth re-examining this idea that you have to convince yourself not to want something.  IME, it just creates frustration and confusion.  I think it stems from the fact that we think of "craving" as the central issue.  It does seem to be, but then we attach to craving and say, "this craving has to go!"  That's just another craving, so we need to find a method around all that.

Anyway, I hope this was helpful. emoticon

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
3/15/15 7:45 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
Expectation is a problem. So is craving.
However, I don't think the sensations of expectation or craving are the problem.

There is some structure, unconciously built around that sensations that give them solidity, reference, belief.
Some parts of that structure are made councious at SE and some at later paths.
For me at least, it's like when you grab a something very hot. Unconciously you tend to drop it, and you don't know why you did that. It's a reflex.
This belief is built by reflex to protect us but, like many defensive reflexes, create more problems that they solve and distort our reasoning.

So, while I do enjoy making theories about thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc, they usually blind me from whats going on with them. If you want answers you must question the thing, moment by moment. Question the structures that are built on top of the first one.

So.....back to step 1, no more abstractions, lets try to watch the thing moving.

Thanks a lot for your response, it forced me to think from a different angle.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
3/21/15 1:29 PM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
Why not just let go of this idea that you can't want it?  Isn't that just effort to control experience?  Of course you want good feelings to happen!

Equanimity can be a paradox if you look at it as a kind of acceptance or letting go.  You have to let go of everything to get equanimity, but you want equanimity because it feels good!  Right?  I think this happens because we lie to ourselves, though.  The thing we call "equanimity" isn't really equanimity, which is the ability to bear stress and pain with grace, it's just complete contentment to the point where we don't care much what happens.  So it isn't about letting go at all, it's more like transcending unpleasantness.

I had an insight into this a little while ago that might be helpful.  Equanimity happens when you can see, very clearly, that thoughts and feelings are two separate processes.  I.e. thinking happens in one place, feelings happen in another place, and you don't have to connect them at all.  The reason acceptance or letting go can trigger this split is because you can hit a sort of magic middle where neither one is affecting the other and they are both allowed to go on separately.  You can think any thought and there are no reactions, and you can let go of any need to control your feelings because the thought stream isn't disrupting anything.  The feelings even out into a perfect rest, and the thought stream is allowed to go on unimpeded.  It's perfect freedom.  I can't tell you exactly how to use this insight at the moment, haha, but it seems to point to something else besides acceptance.  Maybe a better way to think of it is like stopping reactions to thoughts.  So the thought that's bothering you right now is, "I want a fruition."  Maybe just watch for reactions to that thought and drop the reaction rather than the thought.  EDIT: Also, if you can "inhabit the body" this will help see the feelings in action and let you lose track of the thought stream in relation.  It seems to free up the feelings for me.

All that said, I haven't had any fruitions, so maybe I'm talking about something else, but it might be worth re-examining this idea that you have to convince yourself not to want something.  IME, it just creates frustration and confusion.  I think it stems from the fact that we think of "craving" as the central issue.  It does seem to be, but then we attach to craving and say, "this craving has to go!"  That's just another craving, so we need to find a method around all that.

Anyway, I hope this was helpful. emoticon
I wasn't in EQ. I was probably in "Desire for Devilerance" or "Re-Observation" (DN).

Reread MCTB on the 3Cs, back to noting.
Had some interesting experiences.

In one, I could track all the sensations in my body when walking. Suddenly, the "center" (usually the chest or head) of myself began to move and go to each sensation. For a moment I was nowhere in my body, there were just sensations. There was a WTF? moment in my mind and I came back.

A change from that experience is that now I have the complete certainty that every sensation is sequencial. Fast noting gave me that idea too, but in this experience there was no I in the body, just the sensations. The certainty from this experience is not like, "I'm sure this is this way" but like, "it couldn't be any other way".

Anyway, just felt like sharing.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
4/1/15 8:49 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
Why not just let go of this idea that you can't want it?  Isn't that just effort to control experience?  Of course you want good feelings to happen!

Equanimity can be a paradox if you look at it as a kind of acceptance or letting go.  You have to let go of everything to get equanimity, but you want equanimity because it feels good!  Right?  I think this happens because we lie to ourselves, though.  The thing we call "equanimity" isn't really equanimity, which is the ability to bear stress and pain with grace, it's just complete contentment to the point where we don't care much what happens.  So it isn't about letting go at all, it's more like transcending unpleasantness.

I had an insight into this a little while ago that might be helpful.  Equanimity happens when you can see, very clearly, that thoughts and feelings are two separate processes.  I.e. thinking happens in one place, feelings happen in another place, and you don't have to connect them at all.  The reason acceptance or letting go can trigger this split is because you can hit a sort of magic middle where neither one is affecting the other and they are both allowed to go on separately.  You can think any thought and there are no reactions, and you can let go of any need to control your feelings because the thought stream isn't disrupting anything.  The feelings even out into a perfect rest, and the thought stream is allowed to go on unimpeded.  It's perfect freedom.  I can't tell you exactly how to use this insight at the moment, haha, but it seems to point to something else besides acceptance.  Maybe a better way to think of it is like stopping reactions to thoughts.  So the thought that's bothering you right now is, "I want a fruition."  Maybe just watch for reactions to that thought and drop the reaction rather than the thought.  EDIT: Also, if you can "inhabit the body" this will help see the feelings in action and let you lose track of the thought stream in relation.  It seems to free up the feelings for me.

All that said, I haven't had any fruitions, so maybe I'm talking about something else, but it might be worth re-examining this idea that you have to convince yourself not to want something.  IME, it just creates frustration and confusion.  I think it stems from the fact that we think of "craving" as the central issue.  It does seem to be, but then we attach to craving and say, "this craving has to go!"  That's just another craving, so we need to find a method around all that.

Anyway, I hope this was helpful. emoticon
Definitely I wasn't in EQ. I'm sure I was in DN. I'm probably now in EQ or back in AP.

I had some quietness, panoramic, bliss, etc.
But today I began sensing this things as the other senses.
I could feel quietness, expectation, effort, grasping, aversion, solidification and many other things as sensations.
As I went deeper, I took out everything exept some cognizant, understanding thing. I really tried to leave nothing grasping anything.

As I focused on experience, it hit me. There is nothing there. The moment I do something with the present experience, it is in the past. The present experience is devoid of....everything that I could consider as something.
Even the word nothing doesn't describe what I felt, because nothing is an idea, is something.

I'm not sure where this kind of insights happen in the maps. It was pretty weird because it felt like something similar to what happened before the blip.

In any case, any frustation and expectation have completely disappeared as problems at least (and that is a great relief).

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
5/4/15 10:17 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?
Still no more blips (that I'm aware of). I'm cycling, that's for sure.

Change in perspective remains. When I stare at something, there is something missing that existed before the blip.
What is missing is dificult to explain.

These days I can concentrate better. I can notice "noticing" better. I can notice when I get into "states", bliss, panoramic vision, etc.

Before I could rest my attention in the breath, but now I can also rest the alertness to keep noticing the breath.
Before, I had to find a pleasant body sensation to enter jhana, but now the absorption is getting so steady that everything dissapears. I'm not there yet, but progress is being made.

I had very, very profound insights about pain when I was sitting. The disconfort, the struggle, everything.
As usual, insights in suffering create a lot of compassion for everyone.

Some time displacements also happen.

The stage I'm now is very similar to the one I was before the blip.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/12/15 10:16 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Eric M W:
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?
Well, it's been some time.
Sense of cycling: definitely yes. More blips of discontinuities: No.

Still consider the experience to be SE.

However, I'll update my progress in a log and only post here if I have an experience that confirms SE or if I have to "unclaim it".

The URL of the log is:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5740881