Open Heart Bhumi Model

Rist Ei, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
Your own bhumi invention. Does it have resemblance to the tibetan bhumis described in wikipedia?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhūmi_(Buddhism)
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Rist EiYour own bhumi invention. Does it have resemblance to the tibetan bhumis described in wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhūmi_(Buddhism)

Actually not my own but from masters I work and study with. Does it have resemblance to Tibetan bhumis? Maybe. Probably. Difficult to say based on quite vague descriptions that are usually available, as that at Wikipedia. It's the same kind of thing with the descriptions of paths in theravada which was critisized by Daniel Ingram in his book.

The Open Heart-bhumi model is based on the chakra system of man, which therefore is universal: bhumis 1-6 inside the head between the level of the eyes until the top of the head, and bhumis 7-13 above the crown, related to the 7 chakra system there. I have explained this in the Stages of spiritual attainment-text linked above all parts of Bhumi Study Series. That is also how all these lamas and teachers have been ranked. It is an in-depth study. One really has to study empiripically what this study says and shows in pictures in order to understand it.

I once had a chat with a man (who shall go nameless here) who was asked to teach dzogchen by his Tibetan master and who also is fluent in Tibetan language. I was able to squeeze him enough for him to say that,

"However, there is a correspondence between between levels of realization [the thirteen bhumis] and the location at which the prāṇa vāyu remains stably within thecentral channel. But this is attendant with the realization of emptiness through
completion stage practice and is not purely a function of vāyu's ascent and descent in the central channel."


Other than that I have no experience or knowledge from the orthodox Tibetan tantra or dzogchen camp. But based on this it is likely that there are great similarities. Study the pictures. Put people of the same bhumi right next to each other and try to figure out what is identical.

Rist Ei, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
The chakra isn't somewhere nor you percieve it, if you can thats not the point.
There is cause for why eyes are blinking or heart is beating. As long there is blood in body there is desire, that means if someone claims high realization then if he still bleeds then you can fairly tell his body still has desire for nutrition and it also will be a ground for coming angry and can cause evil karma like killing for food.
solid "30+" years of "knowing what you are doing" the past famous masters did so long and got some physical evidence and showed them.
If one can't then only thing we can do is to spread high standards and what is possible and what masters can do if they have high realization is a way to gauge what to follow.
So in sort Physical evidence is what matters at the end if choosing someone who knows what he or she is doing.
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
People here might find this interesting. Copied from a discussion:

The thing with the theravadan/non-tantric approach is that they almost never reach bhumis higher than 6th or 7th. I never came across an ajahn or a sayadaw (referring to theravadan or non-tantric teachers) who was 8th bhumi or higher (refer to the Open Heart Bhumi Model). I suppose this is because they don't utilise the help of a guru or deities which are designed to take one through that terrain. But in case the goal is to reach the 6th bhumi then I guess they do OK.

Based on my own experience I can't imagine how one could neutralise the subtlest bond. By the subtlest bond I refer to what Jigme Lingpa referred to as kun gzhi. I call it "interface of collective subconscousness" which becomes neutralised at the 9th bhumi.

Here is what a friend from a dzogchen-tradition wrote about it:
"There are powerful instances of the category of states called kun gzhi which trick even experienced yogis into thinking this when it is isn't the case. These powerful instances often appear transpersonal (apparently ending self-delusion), non-dual, entail a total relaxation and often no fear, often a panoramic awareness and a lack of concrete percepts. These instances are also extremely sturdy and aside from the rarest experiences, seem permanent and unshakable, some instances can last decades. Dzogchen warns of this as the great danger, and Jigme Lingpa, one of the greatest masters of the last thousand years, warned that in our era, this would be the greatest obstacle any yogi would face, namely confusing particularly powerful instances of kun gzhi for freedom. Kun gzhi is so removed from typical instances of samsara, that though very technically it still is samsara, Dzogchen considers it legitimately a third category, where neither nirvana nor samsara are active nor functioning. As such the danger of its capacity to imitate freedom is well expressed, as any state where samsara isn't active nor functioning obviously entails a propensity for being mistaken for definitive freedom."  

I recently had a nice chat with a teacher colleague of mine, who shall go anonymous here, who has strong theravada buddhist background and has reached 6th bhumi (which corresponds to the 4th path of the theravada model). He got to the 6th bhumi over a decade ago and is still there. That is quite a long time. Based on my analysis of his progress, yes there is some progress (between the 6th and the 7th) but considering the time passed and continued practiced, progress has significantly slowed down since the 6th bhumi (to which he got to reasonably quickly in 7 or 8 years of theravada practice). So it could well be that these states of kun gzhi as described in traditional dzogchen by Jigme Lingpa could "last decades" without specific kind of instructions and knowledge. And 6th bhumi is nowhere near full maturation, buddhahood, mahasiddha-state. In traditional dzogchen there are "category of states of kun gzhi" but I simply put this under 6th through 8th bhumis. It is very difficult to verbally describe the differences of experience between 6th to 8th bhumis so I prefer not to do that. You will know it yourself when you get there. And you will with correct kind of instructions and practices.

They say that these bhumis are neither nirvana and neither samsara (though technically it is samsara). It is precisely like that. I often say that "heavy lifting" is required up the the 6th bhumi and then it gets significantly easier but there is also this weird energetic stuff happening because your energy body is connected to the collective subconscious. You are still connected to humanity by being a human with your own mind which has now been neutralised but because it's still connected to other people, it somehow still operates like the minds of other humans, though at this point without any self-charge. Once you neutralise this interface entirely you enter nirvana and become a buddha, a fully enlightened one. The mind of a buddha is very different to the mind of a human being. Being an 8th bhumi myself, I'd testify that yes this is very different than it was before the 6th, not to even mention before the 1st bhumi, but I know perfectly well that I haven't yet fully returned home.

Chi, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 36 Join Date: 4/23/16 Recent Posts
I really don't think a bodhisattva who has reached the "8th bhumi" would constantly think about other people's attainments, thinking he knows what's in a being's heart by looking at a photograph.

What are you trying to prove? Why consistently create an image of yourself as spiritually superior than all these revered teachers who have spent many decades practicing the true Dhamma? How does it benefit all beings by showing you are somehow more spiritual than these beings?
The thing with the theravadan/non-tantric approach is that they almost
never reach bhumis higher than 6th or 7th. I never came across an ajahn
or a sayadaw (referring to theravadan or non-tantric teachers) who was
8th bhumi or higher (refer to the Open Heart Bhumi Model). I suppose
this is because they don't utilise the help of a guru or deities which
are designed to take one through that terrain. But in case the goal is
to reach the 6th bhumi then I guess they do OK.

This is laughable. All the true monastic Theravadin teachers I've met and watched on youtube and heard about (Sayadaw U Pandita, Ajahn Mahabua, Ajahn Chah, Sumedho, Sucitto, Brahm, Bhante G, Sayadaw U Thuzana, etc.) are kind, generous, and wise. They are carefree and light-hearted. They don't take themselves so seriously. They don't have to advertise all day to attract students. They'd rather practice and be peaceful. They might not live up to your standards, but they surely aren't spending all day comparing themselves with others.

EDIT: Sorry, if any of this was said without compassion. I'll leave the text as it is, just for the sake of being true to what I felt at the moment of writing. I'm still a beginner and quite often feel offended when I feel teachers I revere are being judged or belittled. I still often struggle with this instruction by Master Yin Guang: "One should see oneself as mundane and everyone else as Bodhisattvas." In fact some of his teachings are so touching, I might as well share them:

"Whether one is a layperson or has left the home-life, one should respect elders and be harmonious to those surrounding him. One should endure what others cannot, and practice what others cannot achieve. One should take others' difficulties unto oneself and help them succeed in their undertakings. While sitting quietly, one should often reflect upon one's own faults, and when chatting with friends, one should not discuss the rights and wrongs of others...Constantly maintain a humble and repentful heart; even if one has upheld true cultivation, one should still feel one's practice is shallow and never boast. One should mind one's own business and not the business of others. Only look after the good examples of others instead of bad ones. One should see oneself as mundane and everyone else as Bodhisattvas...."
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Chi:
I really don't think a bodhisattva who has reached the "8th bhumi" would constantly think about other people's attainments, thinking he knows what's in a being's heart by looking at a photograph.

What are you trying to prove? Why consistently create an image of yourself as spiritually superior than all these revered teachers who have spent many decades practicing the true Dhamma? How does it benefit all beings by showing you are somehow more spiritual than these beings?
The thing with the theravadan/non-tantric approach is that they almost
never reach bhumis higher than 6th or 7th. I never came across an ajahn
or a sayadaw (referring to theravadan or non-tantric teachers) who was
8th bhumi or higher (refer to the Open Heart Bhumi Model). I suppose
this is because they don't utilise the help of a guru or deities which
are designed to take one through that terrain. But in case the goal is
to reach the 6th bhumi then I guess they do OK.

This is laughable. All the true monastic Theravadin teachers I've met and watched on youtube and heard about (Sayadaw U Pandita, Ajahn Mahabua, Ajahn Chah, Sumedho, Sucitto, Brahm, Bhante G, Sayadaw U Thuzana, etc.) are kind, generous, and wise. They are carefree and light-hearted. They don't take themselves so seriously. They don't have to advertise all day to attract students. They'd rather practice and be peaceful. They might not live up to your standards, but they surely aren't spending all day comparing themselves with others.

EDIT: Sorry, if any of this was said without compassion. I'll leave the text as it is, just for the sake of being true to what I felt at the moment of writing. I'm still a beginner and quite often feel offended when I feel teachers I revere are being judged or belittled. I still often struggle with this instruction by Master Yin Guang: "One should see oneself as mundane and everyone else as Bodhisattvas." In fact some of his teachings are so touching, I might as well share them:

"Whether one is a layperson or has left the home-life, one should respect elders and be harmonious to those surrounding him. One should endure what others cannot, and practice what others cannot achieve. One should take others' difficulties unto oneself and help them succeed in their undertakings. While sitting quietly, one should often reflect upon one's own faults, and when chatting with friends, one should not discuss the rights and wrongs of others...Constantly maintain a humble and repentful heart; even if one has upheld true cultivation, one should still feel one's practice is shallow and never boast. One should mind one's own business and not the business of others. Only look after the good examples of others instead of bad ones. One should see oneself as mundane and everyone else as Bodhisattvas...."
It's OK Chi. I respect you, your teachers, and all the teachers I've rated. It's not about judging or belittling them. It's not about them on a personal, actually. Or me. I have introduced way of mapping attainments. That's all. It's measuring stick that I've applied to people out there. And I didn't want to leave me out because I didn't want to seem like shouting from the bushes. Once again, I'd advice people to study this mapping system, to go beyond the level of thought or emotional reaction.

I've mapped many teachers by now and will do more, including those theravada buddhists you mention. I will also map more of my own teachers. Just like your teachers, my teachers have been wonderful, honest and understanding people who have spent decades in practice and teaching. However, it is just a fact, measurable with this measuring stick, that decades of dharma work does not directly mean that someone has experientially attained high levels. Of course, anyone who has spent decades in study and practice are joyous and wonderful to be around. They are also wise and helpful. Wonderful. But all this still may or may not mean great things seen from the perspective of bhumis.

I wish you nothing but the best in your study with your teachers.
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkoaVh6q4fE&feature=youtu.be
neko, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 756 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:
Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkoaVh6q4fE&feature=youtu.be

Assuming you have Daniel's permission to publish this dialogue, I think it deserves its own thread emoticon 
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
neko:
Kim Katami:
Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkoaVh6q4fE&feature=youtu.be

Assuming you have Daniel's permission to publish this dialogue, I think it deserves its own thread emoticon 

Of course, I have permission. OK.
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Droll Dedekind, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 634 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
Looking at all of this agnostically for best effect. From that point of view I share Daniel's amusement.

I laughed when I read the two 0/10s at the beginning of the Zen list. Omission or do you know something we don't?

It seems to me that Chogyam Trungpa is conspicuously missing from your list. He's one of these guys that's brought up in these kinds of heated debates. Also, along that same line, Aleister Crowley. I see that you referenced Shinzen on your blog, but you haven't done him or any Western teachers as far as I saw. Sup with that? This story is a little boring unless you do some teachers who are alive and active in the West.

Have you heard of John C. Pierrakos? He worked with Alexander Lowen from the Bioenergetics tradition then went on and did his own thing, combining bodywork with reading auras. Barbara Brennan, who's probably the most well-known Westerner in this area, was heavily influenced by Pierrakos. So, curiously, Bioenergetics/Reichian therapy has a direct connection to this stuff in the West.

...Mahasi Sayadaw?
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Droll Dedekind:
Looking at all of this agnostically for best effect. From that point of view I share Daniel's amusement.

I laughed when I read the two 0/10s at the beginning of the Zen list. Omission or do you know something we don't?

It seems to me that Chogyam Trungpa is conspicuously missing from your list. He's one of these guys that's brought up in these kinds of heated debates. Also, along that same line, Aleister Crowley. I see that you referenced Shinzen on your blog, but you haven't done him or any Western teachers as far as I saw. Sup with that? This story is a little boring unless you do some teachers who are alive and active in the West.

Have you heard of John C. Pierrakos? He worked with Alexander Lowen from the Bioenergetics tradition then went on and did his own thing, combining bodywork with reading auras. Barbara Brennan, who's probably the most well-known Westerner in this area, was heavily influenced by Pierrakos. So, curiously, Bioenergetics/Reichian therapy has a direct connection to this stuff in the West.

...Mahasi Sayadaw?
DD,

What do you mean by omission? In case these people were awakened, they'd be 1st bhumi.

I'm adding people into bhumi study series when I have time. I wanted to start with very well known teachers from these traditions, mostly who are passed now. The reception has been difficult enough with them as well. Had I included Mooji and other such well known modern gurus instantly I'm sure the villagers would have come after me with torches and a rope... Joking a bit. But yeah I will include recent teachers. Trungpa, Shinzen, sure.

I've also done an episode on theravada buddhists which waits for few other people before publishing it. Mahasi Sayadaw would be there but I haven't been able to find a sharp picture of him. I could do it without a clear photo as well but in that case it might be difficult for the reader to see and study himself.

Daniel's there too. He was kind to give permission for that as well. I'm very impressed by his attitude, openness and pragmaticality in allowing these to be published. So thanks again Dan...

Don't know Pierrakos.
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Droll Dedekind, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 634 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
By omission I meant, did you really rate them 0 or have you just not gotten around to rating them?

I'm sure most people on this forum in particular wouldn't be that interested in the New Age or Hindu gurus, fwiw. Probably more so the pragmatic Western people.

Well, if you're interested in this auric/energy stuff in the West I'd check out Pierrakos and Barbara Brennan.
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Droll Dedekind:
By omission I meant, did you really rate them 0 or have you just not gotten around to rating them?

I'm sure most people on this forum in particular wouldn't be that interested in the New Age or Hindu gurus, fwiw. Probably more so the pragmatic Western people.

Well, if you're interested in this auric/energy stuff in the West I'd check out Pierrakos and Barbara Brennan.

If I haven't rated someone yet, there's no number at all. Zero is a number.

I'm planning to do a study of comparison of Kenneth Folk's jhanic arc (documented on video at YouTube with one of his student's) and the bhumis/chakras. He clearly emulates them in his jhana practice. That might be interesting for some here. I haven't received his answer reg. this.

Brennan's book I know. When it comes to bhumis, one of my friends said it well. It's not "aura reading" to be exact.

Bhumi mapping has been something I have been doing for around 3 months now. I starting doing it to try and figure out how my personal practice was progressing then started testing it on others. I find the process quite simple. One observes the body-space as you hold another person or photo of a person in your awareness (that is you simply look at it). Your body-space will show you were that person is at.

If we are open in our looking/observing, our own bodymind and awareness automatically catches up the state of the bodymind-awareness of the studied recipient. One's own bodymind becomes a "measure stick".

I wrote elsewhere about this sort of observing, known in traditional zen calligraphy as "wisdom looking".

Terayama Tanchu Sensei was a very meaningful teacher for me. In fact, I always felt he was a father to me and I think that he felt the same towards me, although we knew each other only for 3 years before he died. He was a dharma heir of the famous Omori Sogen Roshi, founded the Japanese Zen-Calligraphy community (Hitsuzenkai), created his own form of body and awareness exercises (Yokiho) and was well known on his own right throughout Japan. He was also a professor of calligraphy (shodo) and taught in Sophia University in Tokyo.

Wisdom looking or kansho hannya is a very important thing that he taught me. Wisdom looking is something that is done in hitsuzendo, zen
calligraphy. It means to observe and feel calligraphies brushed by meditators or non-meditators to see their state of mind from the ink
trace. There is a long tradition in the East where yogis and awakened people have created some peace of art, whether calligraphy, sculpture or
whatever, so express their clarity of mind. Sensei's method was not to teach students how to write Japanese poems with Chinese characters but
to teach them the very essence of art, which is to observe the clarity of mind transmitted by the piece itself. This skill, wisdom looking, is
what he taught me... And this in turn has been in a central role when it comes to mapping bhumis. In order to map bhumis we have to observe wisely to be able to see clearly what we have at hand.


So, this sort of observation skill has been cultivated in the Buddhist art tradition in Japan for hundreds of years. It's the radiance of the ink, why people ask calligraphies from monks and priests from. I don't know the history of it in China but it's likely they've done it there too, during the roughly 5000 year old history of calligraphy there. However, zen art really became zen art in Japan, after zen buddhism was imported there from China about 1000 years ago. Radiance of the black preserves the mind/the attainment/the bhumi of the calligrapher and can be observed from there. Basicly, whenever you attend teachings of some teacher and you let your body hear what the body, mind and awareness of the teacher, tells you can momentarily simulate the attainment of that person. If you know to observe how it feels in the enters inside or above the head, you can figure out bhumis as well.

In our discussion Daniel said that within the pragmatic dharma scene 4th paths disagree with what 4th path actually is. He also said he personally knows about twenty 4th paths, around the world. I realise this is probably something these people, or most of them, have no interest but a solid way to compare if these people really are on the same or different levels (bhumis) in their 4th path, is to observe their bhumi. I'd be happy to map these people, in case I got their permission to do it and their photos. And as always, I invite people to study this system. Many of my students, even after a short casual study of few months, are able to do this with bhumis 1-6. After the 6th bhumis it gets more difficult because it gets so subtle but surely they'll figure it out too.
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Noah, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 1532 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Kim:

He was a dharma heir of the famous Omori Sogen Roshi,


Funny connection, my mom stayed in Omori Roshi's monastary while she was abroad during her college years.  

In our discussion Daniel said that within the pragmatic dharma scene 4th paths disagree with what 4th path actually is. 


Yes!!  Thanks for sharing this.  Daniel's 4th path is different from 'technical 4th path.'  This is why I hate the term 'MCTB 4th path,' because to me it implies Daniel's 4th path, which is super rare, and most people on the forums haven't gotten it!  Good clarifications.
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CJMacie, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 863 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Kim Katami (5/6/16 5:23 AM as a reply to Chi)
"I have introduced way of mapping attainments. That's all. It's measuring stick that I've applied to people out there."
and (5/13/16 6:05 AM as a reply toDroll Dedekind)
"I'm adding people into bhumi study series when I have time."
Quite understandably you're rather cautious in how you proceed in publishing surveys of all sorts of subjects, as your rating system can be also seen as measurement of YOUR perception of a picture. (As you imply: "One's own body mind becomes a 'measure stick'.") The result gives information about your perception, which can be self-revealing, and possibly beyond what you may be prepared to reveal. Especially due to this relative ranking idea, comparison to vaguely defined standards. The findings provide information about the measuring stick, as least much as about the people's images.

Remains to be shown whether there's something standardizable to the system – producing agreed-upon and reproducible results beyond what just you and your close students come up with. Will others (i.e. from other theoretical and practical systems) be emulate such a "skill", and accept the corrolary emphasis on comparison, on ranking? What if there are multiple, additional axes of measurement (of "attainment") which others can claim to perceive, such that one process (say your or your students reading) yields such and such a ranked list, while some other teacher (and perhaps their students) yields a ranked list of the same images with very different value assignments? Or someone attempts a multiple-dimensional correlation of such different lists? Starts to resemble scientific procedures, perhaps. With that arises the distinction between skills that can be considered as "science" (knowledge), and others more properly considered as "art" (technique).

But back to your (perceived) hint of hesitancy… There are skads of photos of Mahasi Sayadaw, many at least as sharp as those you've already used. (Just google "Mahasi Sayadaw" and open the page of images (often hundreds) that google routinely offers.) There's even a well-know video (from 8mm film) of Mahasi, in some versions together with footage of DiPa Ma. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez-NqcGM14Q and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez-NqcGM14Q at 5' 32")

btw: Does your "bhumi-reading" work also on videos? on seeing a person in action?

This could go on and on, but rather let's see what you might come up with if you attempt to rate pictures of (some sampling of), say, Sayadaws Mahasi, Pandita, Silananda, PaAuk; or Ajahns Thanissaro, Chah (you did use his picture, unrated), Mun, Lee, Sujato; or Bhikku Bodhi, Analayo, Jagara; or Nyanatiloka Mahathera, Nyanaponika Thera, Ayya Khema,… -- all of whom being represented in readily available pictures. (These all Theravadan heavies)

Then there might be Daniel Ingram, Kenneth Folk*, ShinzenYoung… (are there photos of William Hamilton?); Culadhasa, Bodhipaska, Vimalaramsi, maybe even Jay Michaelson, and other DhO favorites. Or some un-favorites, like "Dharmasar" (David Bruce Hughes -- of the vengeful "Lion'sRoar")? Not to mention Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, Jack Kornfield, Shaila Catherine, Gil Fronsdal, etc.

Anything along these lines would be sure to spark attention and further discussion here.

* His "jhana" demonstration would be quite interesting. You're surely also requesting permission from the "student" (Nikolai), who is a "moderator" here on DhO.
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svmonk, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 392 Join Date: 8/23/14 Recent Posts
Well look. In principle we could solve this dispute by having Kim train a image classification AI and then run it on a collection of photos randomly selected from a set including folks that he's verified and folks that he hasn't. There's tons of open source software out there to do image classification, for example http://caffe.berkeleyvision.org/.
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CJMacie, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 863 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: svmonk (5/15/16 10:32 PM as a reply to CJMacie)

"... There's tons of open source software out there to do image classification…

After all, HAL could do human psychological profiling, and read lips to boot -- and that was already 15 years ago.
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
svmonk:
Well look. In principle we could solve this dispute by having Kim train a image classification AI and then run it on a collection of photos randomly selected from a set including folks that he's verified and folks that he hasn't. There's tons of open source software out there to do image classification, for example http://caffe.berkeleyvision.org/.
After having gained some amount of experience with this mapping method I'd like to offer my 2 cents on this proposal!

As far as I understand, the mapping is not about "visual information".  It's more like you know your own experiental reality and what changes in your subtle mind states as you go through the bhumis in your mind. I'm fairly strongly sceptical that machine learning can do this. I understand that you can probably train AI to detect subtle, hidden emotions on pictures and bhumi mapping might seem like a similar task. But I have this hunch that it is not quite so. That is does require an awareness and then checking how these two mind correspond to each other (the person who is doing the mapping, and the person who is being mapped). Can AI learn to detect a living sentient being from photo and not be confused about artificial, created images that look like real people but are actually not portraying anyone who has ever lived? If that is the case them maybe then bhumi mapping AI could be possible. The challenge would then be that you need loads of pictures. Not sure how many, but I'm guessing tens of thousands. Anybody know? My relatively unskilled mapping takes about 15 minutes, and I need to redo it on different days, maybe 4 time before I have any confidence in that.
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svmonk, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 392 Join Date: 8/23/14 Recent Posts
Hi Jehanna,

Most image classification problems require lots of photos, some on the order of tens of thousands, to train the neural net. Training means someone needs to label the photos to tell the classifier if the person was enlightened or not.  Then you run the experiment on photos that have not been labelled. I suppose there aren't that many people studying this technique to supply the training data.

I guess I sort of said this tongue in cheek, but my point is that if the claim is you can recognize someone as having some level of spiritual development from a photo sent over the Internet, then a machine could do it. Now, that isn't to say that you could not recognize someone in person, teachers do this all the time. But there is some intangible quality to the student's presence that tips the teacher off, or at least that's what teachers tell me (I am not one myself).

Or maybe the claim is that the photo just acts in some fashion to focus some kind of psy sense or third eye or whatnot? And the teacher really isn't getting the information from a photo? There I would have to be even more skeptical.
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
svmonk:

I guess I sort of said this tongue in cheek, but my point is that if the claim is you can recognize someone as having some level of spiritual development from a photo sent over the Internet, then a machine could do it. Now, that isn't to say that you could not recognize someone in person, teachers do this all the time. But there is some intangible quality to the student's presence that tips the teacher off, or at least that's what teachers tell me (I am not one myself).

I undestand the tongue in cheeck element, but something in this has intrigued me and continues to do so, so I'll keep on exploring! It's a difficult issue and I'm really thinking as I'm writing, so would also love to hear any thoughts people might have!

There's two statement you made, that I'd like to start with. 1) Teacher can see the level of attainment in person and this is accepted as something the teacher is capable of doing 2) If attainment can be evaluated from a picture, a machine can learn to do it.

Ok, regarding the first point, I find it interesting that a teacher would descibe it this way, being able to sense something from the student. It might be actually a similar thing that is occurring on OH bhumi mapping. I really don't have much experience on how different teachers evaluate students but I've understood that it has to do with some verbal accounts from students on their experience and then this other subtle element that tips the teacher off, an element that is seldom talked about. What might that other factor be? Is it some sort of relaxedness of the body, when the mental knot's get untied? Or something more invisible than mere physical appearance?

I still struggle a bit with statement 2. My intuition tells me that it's not possible, but there is no personal investment in here, so maybe I could relax on that point. In fact, I have no problem if one would train a machine to automatically detect attainment. That would be fantastic actually! The fact is that I cannot know for sure, since the experiment is impossible to make with these resources (that is, not enought time to train the classifier) . And now, given statement 1, I'm more interested in the possibility of extending this teachers ability to detect something when meeting the student face to face, into detecting the same thing from a picture. Possible to do? I personally think so.

svmonk:

Or maybe the claim is that the photo just acts in some fashion to focus some kind of psy sense or third eye or whatnot? And the teacher really isn't getting the information from a photo? There I would have to be even more skeptical.
I don't think there is anything special in a picture as such. You could to this sort of mapping also when meeting a person. The only requirement I untderstand there to be is that you need to be able to relax and keep your  focus on this person, forget yourself and be aware of the type of vibe this person has on your own awareness.

I'd be really interested to hear other teachers (and experienced meditators, too) applying this method of analysing progress from pictures as well. As they are already getting some subtle tips from the student's appearance face to face, what would happen if those teachers would try to apply this mapping from pictures? It takes a bit of practise, sure, but would be really interesting. And with extensive meditation background it's not that hard to gain an understanding on your own mind and seeing how that mind is changing when it is fused and focused on the student. I don't want to use the term body-mind, but I can't find a better term to describe the entire being of the student.
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Kim Katami, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
A bit from my upcoming book on post-awakening practice.

Mikko's Account, Opening and Perfecting Bhumis

I’ve mostly practiced Theravada Buddhist techniques: Vipassana, Samatha
and the Brahma Viharas. These practices took me all the way to the
fourth path or Arhatship as it’s defined in pragmatic dharma.
Afterwards, I felt like the itch had been scratched but, at the same
time, it was obvious that the train didn’t stop there. Also, I had
become more and more curious about Tantric practices as I had learned
that there are really no limits to the ways of working with the mind.
I had known about Open Heart for a while and seen Kim Katami do his
best to explain the practices to people online that were, let’s
say, less than receptive to them. It was probably Kim’s patience
that encouraged me the most to give OH practices a try.The
way I did the practices was very simple: once a day every day exactly
as instructed. This was new to me since my approach towards
Theravadan techniques had been very improvised and trial-and-error.
In any case, OH practices seemed to work. I immediately noticed that
during a session my mind became clearer and dualistic tensions were
relaxed. I started to become more familiar with Rigpa which I had
previously been able to touch just briefly. A little later, I also
started to understand what was meant by Alaya Vijnana or substrate
consciousness. Eventually, Rigpa grew to be my default mode of
experience. Although, it’s still a seesaw battle between clarity
and spontaneity and old conditioned patterns, I now consider
Buddhahood to be a very real possibility.From
the time I started OH practices to when, according to Kim, I opened
my 13th Bhumi, there were 10–15 significant changes in
my everyday experience. Some of them were more significant than
others, and the most significant ones seemed to correspond to
descriptions of specific Bhumi openings of other practitioners as
well. These were the openings of the 9th, 11th
and 13th Bhumis. Below are short descriptions of the
effects of these openings. I’ve also included the first and fourth
paths of the Theravadan model as they have clear correlates in the OH
Bhumi model.

Stream Entry/1
st Bhumi – 1/2016: An identity
made out of thoughts suddenly disappeared. This left an emptiness
that the mind kept poking at for a while like your tongue checking
for a missing tooth pulled by a dentist. Eventually, the mind relaxed
as it realized that nothing was really lost. In addition to starting
a new path and slowly going through the stages of insight again,
repeated cycling began with every cycle taking less and less time.

Fourth Path/6
th Bhumi – 3/2017: The reference
point in the middle of experience was seen for what it is. In a
striking way, the Buddha’s saying “In seeing, there’s only the
seen…” became an accurate description of everyday experience. The
endless obsessive chase after anything referring to a sense of self
stopped, and practice was now on a different basis. Sense of being
shifted from thoughts, feelings and bodily sensations to the entirety
of experience. Otherwise, life continued with little change.

9
th Bhumi – 12/2017: The difference between Rigpa and
not-quite-Rigpa became clear. Before, it had been possible to
practice Atiyoga without noticing that some subtle something was
still obscuring experience. After what I would consider to be the
opening of the 9th Bhumi, this was no longer an issue.
Soon afterwards, the opening was verified by Kim as well.

11
th Bhumi – 3/2018: There were many shifts and changes around this
time, but one left behind a feeling that Rigpa had become a permanent
way of being. This wasn’t exactly the case and maybe a more
accurate description would be that Rigpa became easily accessible
even off-the-cushion. Based on what I had heard of other practioners’
experiences, I considered this to be the opening of the 11th
or 13th Bhumi. It felt unlikely that there could be more
significant openings left as emptiness was already such a pronounced
feature of experience.

13
th Bhumi – 4/2018: The opening of the 13th Bhumi
happened on a solo retreat, towards the end of which I was doing
multiple sessions of Open Heart Yoga a day. At some point, there was
a shift, and I felt that whatever I had set out to do when I decided
to give OH practices a go had been done. Afterwards, the practices
seemed exhausted and letting them go felt natural. Rigpa had turned
from being barely recognized to something everyday experience quietly
rested on. Soon, Kim verified that the 13th had indeed
opened. One peculiar thing that started during the retreat and
continued after was spontaneous Mudras. I was already very familiar
with Kundalini Kriyas, but stories of spontaneous Mudras had always
sounded incredible to me. Little did I know. Although I felt that the
practices had run their course, by no means did it feel like the end.
It was just that the basis of practice had shifted once again.

*Kundalini Kriyas are known by different names such as Spontaneous Kriya and
TRE. In Open Heart it is called Rushen which is a whole practice of
its own that begins with chaotic movements and sounds but over time
develops into spontaneous mudras, yogic movements, dances, mantras
and chants of the various tantric buddhist deities.

This account was written 4 months after the opening of the 13
th bhumi.
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Kim Katami, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
I have never heard any other meditation teacher get as close to what we do in OH on daily basis than Shinzen Young in his talk.

”I was at a student's house and I see this book. Its one of these photo books that people would put on coffee tables. What's interesting is that there's nothing by the photographer, the author of the book, but there is an intro, a preamble by Tony Morrison who is a fairly important person in the world of art and literature. This tells you that this is a significant book but there is nothing by the person who actually took the photos, in other words the photos have to speak for themselves. Its this huge book of photographs and I start to look through these photographs. These are all portraits and I'm like freaking out because its very evident to me what this book is about and I had never seen a book like this, ever. I go to my friend and say, ”This book is amazing!” and she says, ”The photographer, is a distant relative of mine”. ”Well, can you get his telephone number?”, I asked. We called him up and he was there. I told him what I thought his book was about and he freaked out. He said that I was the only person who ever understood what the book was about, of all the people that had seen it at exhibitions or whatever. The name of the book is A Kind of Rapture by Robert Bergman. He went through the rust belt of United States, the old decaying cities, photographing street people, who for whatever reason, usually a combination of hard life and physical, and mental illness, had been thrust into a no-self state, in other words, people for whom the blows of life had driven them to a rapturous no-self experience. He went around the country looking for those kind of people, catching them at the moment when they manifested the non-ego, that their hard life had taken them to. You know, if you see one or two pictures like that it doesn't have an impact like that but if you see 50 pictures like that, picture after picture after picture, then it hits you, what the whole thing is about. The reason why I thought they were so extraordinary is that althought there is a lot of books about enlightenment or no-self coming about through practice, and there are number of books written by people who have had spontaneous enlightenment experiences, what no one has looked at is this whole thing, this whole other aspect. In terms of a subject matter it is very unsual and the message is very unsual, and the medium is very unsual, instead of writing a book, talking about this phenomena, he shows it to you and you either get it or you don't.”

- Shinzen Young

https://youtu.be/HGmU1oVroLM?t=1499
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Ward Law, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 123 Join Date: 9/7/15 Recent Posts
Beside the point, but now we want to know the title of the book.
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Scott, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 27 Join Date: 10/24/17 Recent Posts

It'sA Kind of Rapture by Robert Bergman

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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
I was so blown away by Shinzen's comment of the portraits that I sent him links to the blog posts depicting the bhumis progress of few OH practisioners. Would be really cool if he had the time to take a look and give his impressions on the pictures there! I haven't heard anything from him but I hope my message reaches him eventually, it was forwarded to his community manager. It's a little bit annoying (although understandable) that the more famous techers are hard to get in touch with.
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Kim Katami, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Senior practitioners discuss Opening and Perfection of Bhumis.

Karl and Jonathan, and Helena.
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
CJMacie:
re: Kim Katami (5/6/16 5:23 AM as a reply to Chi)
"I have introduced way of mapping attainments. That's all. It's measuring stick that I've applied to people out there."
and (5/13/16 6:05 AM as a reply toDroll Dedekind)
"I'm adding people into bhumi study series when I have time."
Quite understandably you're rather cautious in how you proceed in publishing surveys of all sorts of subjects, as your rating system can be also seen as measurement of YOUR perception of a picture. (As you imply: "One's own body mind becomes a 'measure stick'.") The result gives information about your perception, which can be self-revealing, and possibly beyond what you may be prepared to reveal. Especially due to this relative ranking idea, comparison to vaguely defined standards. The findings provide information about the measuring stick, as least much as about the people's images.

Remains to be shown whether there's something standardizable to the system – producing agreed-upon and reproducible results beyond what just you and your close students come up with. Will others (i.e. from other theoretical and practical systems) be emulate such a "skill", and accept the corrolary emphasis on comparison, on ranking? What if there are multiple, additional axes of measurement (of "attainment") which others can claim to perceive, such that one process (say your or your students reading) yields such and such a ranked list, while some other teacher (and perhaps their students) yields a ranked list of the same images with very different value assignments? Or someone attempts a multiple-dimensional correlation of such different lists? Starts to resemble scientific procedures, perhaps. With that arises the distinction between skills that can be considered as "science" (knowledge), and others more properly considered as "art" (technique).

But back to your (perceived) hint of hesitancy… There are skads of photos of Mahasi Sayadaw, many at least as sharp as those you've already used. (Just google "Mahasi Sayadaw" and open the page of images (often hundreds) that google routinely offers.) There's even a well-know video (from 8mm film) of Mahasi, in some versions together with footage of DiPa Ma. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez-NqcGM14Q and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez-NqcGM14Q at 5' 32")

btw: Does your "bhumi-reading" work also on videos? on seeing a person in action?

This could go on and on, but rather let's see what you might come up with if you attempt to rate pictures of (some sampling of), say, Sayadaws Mahasi, Pandita, Silananda, PaAuk; or Ajahns Thanissaro, Chah (you did use his picture, unrated), Mun, Lee, Sujato; or Bhikku Bodhi, Analayo, Jagara; or Nyanatiloka Mahathera, Nyanaponika Thera, Ayya Khema,… -- all of whom being represented in readily available pictures. (These all Theravadan heavies)

Then there might be Daniel Ingram, Kenneth Folk*, ShinzenYoung… (are there photos of William Hamilton?); Culadhasa, Bodhipaska, Vimalaramsi, maybe even Jay Michaelson, and other DhO favorites. Or some un-favorites, like "Dharmasar" (David Bruce Hughes -- of the vengeful "Lion'sRoar")? Not to mention Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, Jack Kornfield, Shaila Catherine, Gil Fronsdal, etc.

Anything along these lines would be sure to spark attention and further discussion here.

* His "jhana" demonstration would be quite interesting. You're surely also requesting permission from the "student" (Nikolai), who is a "moderator" here on DhO.
I have no problem with anything regards my own understanding or lack of it being revealed. To put myself out there, together with anyone else in the Bhumi Study Series, is because I have nothing to hide and anyone can see who this guy this. Unfortunately, many got provoked by it because my bhumi is higher than of many famous teachers. But if you look closely there are a bunch of teachers there who are way beyond (my) 8th bhumi. 8th bhumi is still an immature state compared to mahasiddha bhumis 11-13.

The whole point of this bhumi model is that anyone can learn it and apply it. I've been applying this art for over a decade so I'm pretty confident about it because 1. it correlates with the energy body and 2. because this training has given me an eye for it (which anyone can develop). I'm cool with people taking this model, investigating it and developing it further in the way they wish.

I once tried to find a photo of Mahasi Sayadaw on Google but could only find small and smudgy ones. I'll try again because I'd like to include him too.

Like I said earlier bhumi reading can be done without a picture or a video, with distance tuning, if one got the skills for it. I can and have done it. I referred to this in discussion with Daniel. This is also something that anyone can learn but it might take a while. Meeting the person face-to-face, whether in person, photo or video are the best conditions for bhumi mapping.

You list over 25 names and suggest these people to be rated. I'll do 6-7 people in the Theravadan Buddhists episode of the Bhumi Study Series. This is enough reference to get you started yourself. I say that it's enough reference because about 20 people have already told me of their basic observations of the Bhumi Study Series available, I mean they have already seen first hand that there are notable differences with teachers because of the bhumi differences, and they have mapped easily bhumis 1-6. So if you have to have the Theravada-episode to get started, it will be online in a week or two. Then you can map the rest yourself.

I've emailed Folk about using his Jhanic Arc-video, and Daniel said he'd say a word for me to him (which I think he probably forgot). I don't know him at all so I might not get even a reply.

>Anything along these lines would be sure to spark attention and further discussion here.

I suppose very few here at DhO have actually even tried this bhumi model. This is my assumption because none other than Daniel from this forum have messaged me or given me any feedback here. It's fine with me that people discuss it but it will never make sense to you if you never try it out and see for yourself. It simply never will. So if this discussion is purely theory-based, I don't have interest in it. Practice-based discussion on the other hand is entirely different thing. That I'd love to do.
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:


I suppose very few here at DhO have actually even tried this bhumi model. This is my assumption because none other than Daniel from this forum have messaged me or given me any feedback here. It's fine with me that people discuss it but it will never make sense to you if you never try it out and see for yourself. It simply never will. So if this discussion is purely theory-based, I don't have interest in it. Practice-based discussion on the other hand is entirely different thing. That I'd love to do.


I agree that theory-based discussion on this matter is of no interest. For what it's worth, I've been interested in this and have actually tried to do this bhumi reading myself. I used the three zen masters you have on your blog, the ones that don't have any rating yet. I found that trying to rate people with numbers I was always unsure how much of my evaluation was affected by the given number and what part of it was genuine. Ofcourse it was useful to first look at the faces and the numbers, but I'm not skilled enough to verbalize what I saw, apart from some very crude differences which might just as well be due to facial features and not bhumis.

The biggest tip for me (in addition to the instructions on your blog) was when you said in the discussion with Daniel that it takes time to get the feeling of the bhumi. I had thought that you simply look and see it somehow immediately. But inspired by this comment I really took the time to look at the pictures and after some time (maybe 5 to10 minutes?) I somehow could feel that there was a specific number coming to mind.

This is my first time trying, but it will definately be interesting to find out what the answer will be according to you. emoticon
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Jehanne S Peacock:


I agree that theory-based discussion on this matter is of no interest. For what it's worth, I've been interested in this and have actually tried to do this bhumi reading myself. I used the three zen masters you have on your blog, the ones that don't have any rating yet. I found that trying to rate people with numbers I was always unsure how much of my evaluation was affected by the given number and what part of it was genuine. Ofcourse it was useful to first look at the faces and the numbers, but I'm not skilled enough to verbalize what I saw, apart from some very crude differences which might just as well be due to facial features and not bhumis.

The biggest tip for me (in addition to the instructions on your blog) was when you said in the discussion with Daniel that it takes time to get the feeling of the bhumi. I had thought that you simply look and see it somehow immediately. But inspired by this comment I really took the time to look at the pictures and after some time (maybe 5 to10 minutes?) I somehow could feel that there was a specific number coming to mind.

This is my first time trying, but it will definately be interesting to find out what the answer will be according to you. emoticon
One has to be able to distinguish the bhumi-factor from secondary factors. Secondary factors include things like:

- The person concerned might momentarily be in a high energy state, like after a chanting session, deep meditation or tantric initiation. This does not affect the bhumi. I haven't yet published the Theravada Buddhist-episode but the elder ajahns there are perfect example of this. However they just emulate the Three Jewels which energetically speaking deals with the highest centers above the head, that is, the mahasiddha bhumis, 11-13.
- The person might be sick or lack vitality. This neither affects the bhumi.
- Persons mind might be busy and because of many thoughts the person might appear messy. This neither affects the bhumi.

WHen I said that "it takes time to get the feeling of the bhumi" I meant both in an immediate session (especially for a beginner) and in the long run when learning the system in general. When one gets skilled, that is have good attention skills and silent mind without a chatter, one can see the bhumi pretty quickly, sometimes "immediately".

Do you mean you get actual numbers appearing in your mind? If you know well where the bhumis are in the head and above it, then sure it might come in as a number. But if you don't know the locations, then these numbers might be only imagination.

The key is to let the body, mind and awareness of the person concerned show it to you, your body, mind and awareness. Don't try too much. Rather, allow the mouse come to you emoticon By mouse I mean the mind state.
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Jehanne S Peacock, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 167 Join Date: 2/14/14 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:


Do you mean you get actual numbers appearing in your mind? If you know well where the bhumis are in the head and above it, then sure it might come in as a number. But if you don't know the locations, then these numbers might be only imagination.

The key is to let the body, mind and awareness of the person concerned show it to you, your body, mind and awareness. Don't try too much. Rather, allow the mouse come to you emoticon By mouse I mean the mind state.


Yeah, I don't think I was trying too hard. My approach was more like gently and curiously look at the thing and let whatever to reveal itself. I had very little expectations, mainly curiosity. I was actually a bit surprised that some answers came to me, as I expected to not really be able to say anything. Now I'm rather eager to do the comparison of my guesses to your evaluation. Although I realize that even if I get it completely wrong the first time doesn't mean I'm necessarily doing it wrong, I just need some practice...

To add some detail to my "method": I was trying to concentrate on each of the bhumis at their locations and gently inquire whether maybe this bhumi was "open" or not, whatever that means ( as I really don't know any of this stuff). After some time there became this feeling that it was this certain bhumi that was open, and not one above it. So it wasn't like there was a number 5 for example, appering in my mind, but more like certain feeling that imagining the person to be in a certain bhumi felt more right than otherwise. Some pictures were easier than others, that is, the answer came quicker. I will also emphasize that I do not know this chakra system at all. I was sometimes actually measuring with by fingers where the 3rd chakra would be located, and then trying to feel whether that was somehow open or not.

Oh, and since you mentioned that the bhumis above 6 are harder to get than the lower ones, I only considered the possibility that these people are between 1-6 and wen't from there. This is not to say anything about the people in the pictures, I simply did it to make matters easy to myself.
Chi, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 36 Join Date: 4/23/16 Recent Posts
I watched bits of a couple of your videos and you clearly are completely dedicated to the path.

I am quite ashamed and apologize for how I reacted to some of your actions.

I'm very interested in what you come up with for the "Theravadin heavies" and some other popular non-dual teachers as well. 

I still find it completely unbelievable that Thich Nhat Hanh and Suzuki Roshi are 0/13....
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Chi:
I watched bits of a couple of your videos and you clearly are completely dedicated to the path.

I am quite ashamed and apologize for how I reacted to some of your actions.

I'm very interested in what you come up with for the "Theravadin heavies" and some other popular non-dual teachers as well. 

I still find it completely unbelievable that Thich Nhat Hanh and Suzuki Roshi are 0/13....
Don't worry about it Chi. Apology accepted.

I still haven't found a theravadan ajahn beyond 6th bhumi, although they magnificently emulate the highest bhumis through taking refuge in the Three Jewels. Maybe Jigme Lingpa was right when he said that in this time many get stuck in alaya vijnana/interface of collective subconscious. That's where I'm stuck too at the moment but hopefully (fingers crossed) not for decades ahead.

I've liked Thich Nhat Hanh and Shunryu Suzuki Roshi over the years. Wonderful men and wonderful teachers to many. But if you really start listening what Hanh talks about, it becomes clear that no this can't be the words of an awakened person. With all respect to him and his followers. It's the same thing with many out there.

One of the things that happens to many, me too for years and years, is that we assume people with title, reputation, lineage and following are automatically valid in the sense of living nondual dharma. But if we strip all these things and start to listen with our bodies and really think what these people say, often we get surprised because few deliver, in the strictest sense of the word.

One of my friends said, after learning the basics of the Open Heart Bhumi Model:
"It's very good but it has ruined my romantic mind about teachers and how great they are and how much I suck as practitioner. I thought earlier that they are so good and can talk so great. And now its just the reality and I can't listen anymore certain teacher."

This model which you use to know where you are yourself and where others, including well known teachers are, is not to point fingers at anyone or any system. It is a tool of systematical experience-based study and understanding. Having said that it also points out if there are some problems or deficiencies in teachers or methods.

Imagine had people known it and been able to apply it to all the cheating and hustling gurus out there throughout last decades and centuries... Would have saved a lot of heart break and accumulation of negative karma.


 
Chi, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 36 Join Date: 4/23/16 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:
Chi:
I watched bits of a couple of your videos and you clearly are completely dedicated to the path.

I am quite ashamed and apologize for how I reacted to some of your actions.

I'm very interested in what you come up with for the "Theravadin heavies" and some other popular non-dual teachers as well. 

I still find it completely unbelievable that Thich Nhat Hanh and Suzuki Roshi are 0/13....
Don't worry about it Chi. Apology accepted.

I still haven't found a theravadan ajahn beyond 6th bhumi, although they magnificently emulate the highest bhumis through taking refuge in the Three Jewels. Maybe Jigme Lingpa was right when he said that in this time many get stuck in alaya vijnana/interface of collective subconscious. That's where I'm stuck too at the moment but hopefully (fingers crossed) not for decades ahead.

I've liked Thich Nhat Hanh and Shunryu Suzuki Roshi over the years. Wonderful men and wonderful teachers to many. But if you really start listening what Hanh talks about, it becomes clear that no this can't be the words of an awakened person. With all respect to him and his followers. It's the same thing with many out there.

One of the things that happens to many, me too for years and years, is that we assume people with title, reputation, lineage and following are automatically valid in the sense of living nondual dharma. But if we strip all these things and start to listen with our bodies and really think what these people say, often we get surprised because few deliver, in the strictest sense of the word.

One of my friends said, after learning the basics of the Open Heart Bhumi Model:
"It's very good but it has ruined my romantic mind about teachers and how great they are and how much I suck as practitioner. I thought earlier that they are so good and can talk so great. And now its just the reality and I can't listen anymore certain teacher."

This model which you use to know where you are yourself and where others, including well known teachers are, is not to point fingers at anyone or any system. It is a tool of systematical experience-based study and understanding. Having said that it also points out if there are some problems or deficiencies in teachers or methods.

Imagine had people known it and been able to apply it to all the cheating and hustling gurus out there throughout last decades and centuries... Would have saved a lot of heart break and accumulation of negative karma.


 

But Suzuki Roshi's books (Beginner's Mind, Not Always So) -- they point to the non-dual and completely blow the mind away. 

Are humility and gentleness and true kindness not signs of awakening? How does awakening manifest in terms of personality or does it have nothing to do with personality? Can a being be awakened and still be more self-centered than non-awakened beings? 
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Chi:

But Suzuki Roshi's books (Beginner's Mind, Not Always So) -- they point to the non-dual and completely blow the mind away. 

Are humility and gentleness and true kindness not signs of awakening? How does awakening manifest in terms of personality or does it have nothing to do with personality? Can a being be awakened and still be more self-centered than non-awakened beings? 

What can I say... I recall Suzuki's wife making jokes that Suzuki never had kensho. I don't know if these were meant as jokes which were not actual or as jokes which were true but anyway. I know soto zen priests with much longer practice than Suzuki who neither were awakened but who obviously had become very skilled in just sitting. Whether Suzuki was awakened or not, I think his work still deserves a lot of credit.

Humility, gentleness and kindness as signs of awakening. Well, sure. These can be indications. But both my grandmothers are also like that and neither of them are/were awakened or spiritually advanced.

When one advances in the nondualistic sense, personality becomes engulfed by it. In my exp, one's personality does not become erased. You can still make the same stoopid jokes as you did before ever sitting down to watch your mind and be the same person, the same guy or gal.

>Can a being be awakened and still be more self-centered than non-awakened beings?

More self-centered? I don't know, I don't think so. But an awakened person can be a totally self-centered idiot and not see it easily. I know one case, awakened man and a guru who was bound for decades to foolish mental concepts which kept him self-centered, that is, they were not able to advance further from the 1st bhumi. I'm talking about Poonja a.k.a. Papaji. He is a fine example of this. 1st bhumi for 30-40 years after his initial awakening... up until his death because he didn't understand the relative aspect of life. This kept him self-centered because of childish concepts.
Derek, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 326 Join Date: 7/21/10 Recent Posts
Hi, Kim,

Would you like to do a reading for me? Photo on this page, here: http://xpu.ca

Derek.
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
DerekHi, Kim,

Would you like to do a reading for me? Photo on this page, here: http://xpu.ca

Derek.

Derek,

Guess how many people ask me for reading either of themselves or any teacher they might know? I must have received dozen requests like this this week, since publishing the bhumi series. It doesn't feel right to do it every time I am asked to, so thank you for asking but I have to say no. I've only done this to my close students, after hearing their own answer, and intend to keep it that way.

I think it would be very useful to discuss how this bhumi-spotting skill can be developed though. It's not difficult but it requires detailed study. After this study one can see directly who is who or who is not. This study may come with surprises as in some cases of the study series.

Basicly: There are 6 small chakras inside the head between the level of the eyes and the crown. These centers are in even intervals. Just observe from which level, corresponding to a number of the concerned bhumi, do you observe the external (or internal) world? Where does it open from? Check where it is open and where it is closed. With stream entry, the first bhumi is open, that's where your ground (bhumi) is right after awakening. And the open spot keeps climbing higher, pops up regularly with further mind purification/progress of vipashyana.

The same method of inspection applies with the higher bhumis but then one really has to have good skills to find out the exact one. The higher bhumis can, however, be divided into two main categories: bodhisattva bhumis and mahasiddha bhumis. When you study it and compare the subtle energy of the masters, it becomes evident that there is a significant difference between a bodhisattva and a mahasiddha. And that mahasiddhas, spiritual masters, are actually very rare in physical form.

I am very happy to present this type of mapping of spiritual attainments and offer it to anyone who is interested. If one has the skills, it is applicable to anyone. It doesn't matter which tradition, teacher or practitioner is concerned. This bhumi model transcends the differences in traditions and their respective terms and often difficult or even impossible to understand-descriptions. It gives a different spin on the whole thing. I feel, it is also a big step towards a more complete presentation of pragmatic dharma. But this is just me talking. It is others who have to learn it, apply it and either dump it or use it.

Cheers,
Baba Kim Katami

Open Heart,
www.openheart.fi


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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

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Find a diagram of the above mentioned chakra/bhumi-model here:

.
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

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Okeydokey Pawel.
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

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Found a related and interesting talk by Daniel Ingram. He mentions the very thing I have wondered myself that there is so much to be done and studied in order us to have an truly universal way to map the stages of attainment.

Listen to the whole talk here http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2012/10/bg-267-its-a-jungle-in-there/

16:28>

"Energetics. Can we actually see or feel the nadis or the energy channels. Can we actually play with those? There are people who can and there are people who do. How many people can do that? What did it take for them to actually get there? Can we ourselves have we ever done it? Do we occasionally go there? Have we momentarily burst channels or had energetic phenomena or do we live there? Are we someone who there are the channels and there we can see them and there we can move through. Again like we don’t even know what the realistic human range is. We don’t even know how many of these people out there who can do these things cause no one has actually done the hard survey work of tramping through the jungle and seeing what we find there. And it needs to be done so that we can reasonably figure out what the range is, how we study this people."
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

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nekoDear Baba,

I see you bring up the topic of "proof", as in:

A ) That your claims have been proved correct.

B ) Asking others to disprove your claims on the attainments of famous teachers, as well as yourself.

I would like to answer this specific point, because the notion of proof
is a very important one, and you are not doing the concept of proof
justice with these claims and challenges. Your statements lack a number
of characteristics to be considered proved - or even provable.

1) First of all, one could doubt the hypothesis behind your work: that attainments can be measured,
that is, that the classification of bhumis you propose makes sense, and
how it can be measured independently of looking at pictures.

2) Conceding (1) for argument's sake, you have not proved that there is a
correlation between what you see in a picture and the bhumi itself. If
the definition of the bhumi is "what is seen in the picture", this is of
course circular reasoning. We need two different ways to measure the
bhumi: The picture one, and a different one, e.g. an interview.

3) Assuming we have two different measures, one would have to test them
separately. This would require several different conditions. First of
all, the definition of a protocol that can be repeated by different
people, and which could potentially provide consistent values. Then, a
test population (for example, made up of people who practice and do not
practice meditation). Then, two or more different evaluators, who
evaluate the people's attainments blindly (independently,
without knowing what the other evaluators are doing). Next, the results
would need be compared, to see if there is any degree of coherence
between one evaluator's measure and another one's. Finally, these
measures would have to be repeated by different groups.

4) After (3) has been done for the two different measuring techniques separately
(the pictures one, and the other, as yet unspecified, one), yet another
study would be necessary, in which a good number of people are evaluated
using the two different measuring techniques, and the correlation
between the two measuring techinques is esitmated. This last study would
need to be double blind. This means several things,
for example, that the evaluator applying technique A should have no
access to the result from technique B. So if technique A involves
looking at pictures, and technique B requires an interview, the
interviews should be performed in a way that the interviewer has no way
of seeing person A's face - and the people looking at the pictures would
need to not know anything about the person.

This is just a very simplified explanation of what would be required for your claims to be
considered proved. There are tens of potential pitfalls in the
procedures I have outlined, and the experiments would need to be
repeated independently by different groups. This does not, of course,
mean that your claims are false: Just that they your claims are neither proved nor provable nor falsifiable at the current state of development of your method.

I do encourage you to try and devise a way to test your claims in a
scientific manner, and I would suggest that you try and get some
scientifically trained researcher, or, better, a scientific institution,
such as a university, involved. But, until you propose a scientifically
rigorous protocol, and this protocol is applied and verified by
independent sources, I think you should refrain from stating that your
claims are proved.
Neko-chan,

>A ) That your claims have been proved correct.

- This thread concerns Bhumi Study which is yet to be developed further. What I have presented in my study, is just the first step of it. And I hope for its further development for the benefit of many.

The proof about the awakening formula I employ, is in the minds and lives of those who have awakened through it. A free e-book and the text A"wakened on their experiences", after one year or more after their insight, clearly demonstrates this.

Many ask me what do I see from the pictures of people (here in the context of verifying or falsifying awakenings/stream entries). I've clarified this on number of occasions. As many teachers have said, the notion of "I", sits in between the eyes, inside the head. That is a knot of karmic energy. When that knot is opened, the illusion of self as an entity is seen through, the appearance of the eyes, face, head and one's whole being changes. When one becomes skilled in noticing the difference, it's pretty evident. I was introduced to this way of "bodymind reading" by a Japanese zen-master I studied with, Shodo Harada. Zen-masters such as him are great at that. They can smell what is going on in the minds of their students from distance, from the way people walk, hit the bell and so on. It is a skill. Also my zen calligraphy master, Terayama Tanchu, was great at this, reading the minds and attainments of various meditating calligraphers from the ink trace. He was very famous in Japan. So anyway, that was my introduction to this art over a decade ago. After that I have deepened my studies. I also train OH-teachers like this. So, in regards to awakening, that's bhumi number 1, in our map.

>B ) Asking others to disprove your claims on the attainments of famous teachers, as well as yourself.

- No. Initially I am asking people to look into this and study my representation. It is only for people who say "Oh OK, this is crap and self-promotion" without study, who I am encouraging to disprove me.

>1) First of all, one could doubt the hypothesis behind your work: that attainments can be measured,
that is, that the classification of bhumis you propose makes sense, and
how it can be measured independently of looking at pictures.

- An analogy. Let's say that we have a big room of 50 sq. meters (150 sq. feet), like a hall, with nothing in it except a floor covered with sand, spread evenly all over it. Now, if we walk into the center of this room and wipe the floor clean there, for say, 5 sq. meters (15 sq. feet), we can clearly observe that this space has been cleaned up and that there exactly 45 sq. meters still waiting to be cleaned. Then we wipe 5 sq. meters more and again, it is clear to us where is sand and where not. And as we keep going like this, we can clearly observe the whole cleaning of the room. This analogy describes well what happens between bhumis 1-6. The energy body of man is just like the floor covered with sand and when you have the skill in your eye, you can see precisely where the bodymind is still covered or where it is already clean of karmic sand, karmic energy. That's how this works. But it requires knowledge, practice and training. Quite a bit, in fact. But it is not difficult or vague when you know how it works.

So absolutely, attainments can be measured. With this system there is no doubt about it. 

>2) Conceding (1) for argument's sake, you have not proved that there is a
correlation between what you see in a picture and the bhumi itself. If
the definition of the bhumi is "what is seen in the picture", this is of
course circular reasoning. We need two different ways to measure the
bhumi: The picture one, and a different one, e.g. an interview.

- The thing is that this way of mapping attainments, as we do it in OH, is in it's baby stages. At the staff room of OH-teachers, we have discussed this to some degree and they, about 10 people of them, have done bhumi analysis of themselves, with good results. As a general rule, with each bhumi, there is a new, fresh and subtler field of clear awareness, from the 1. until 6. bhumi. With this process throughout 1. and 6. bhumis, there is energetic purification taking place in the limbs. At 6. bhumi there are no longer knots of karmic energy in the whole area of the physical body while "the root center lies at the crown", as it is sometimes said. But yes, I cannot yet produce a chart which says that "when this bhumi opens, it is exactly like this and not like that". In one way, I don't even see a need for that, because this is an empirical study. When you get the basics of the method, just apply and see if it works.  

>3) Assuming we have two different measures, one would have to test them
separately. This would require several different conditions. First of
all, the definition of a protocol that can be repeated by different
people, and which could potentially provide consistent values. Then, a
test population (for example, made up of people who practice and do not
practice meditation). Then, two or more different evaluators, who
evaluate the people's attainments blindly (independently,
without knowing what the other evaluators are doing). Next, the results
would need be compared, to see if there is any degree of coherence
between one evaluator's measure and another one's. Finally, these
measures would have to be repeated by different groups...

- Well, sure. There needs to be careful and detailed study.

>This is just a very simplified explanation of what would be required for your claims to be
considered proved. There are tens of potential pitfalls in the
procedures I have outlined, and the experiments would need to be
repeated independently by different groups. This does not, of course,
mean that your claims are false: Just that they your claims are neither proved nor provable
nor falsifiable at the current state of development of your method.


- Sure thing. I've been doing this long enough to be pretty sure about it but by no means I expect or want anyone to accept it without first hand experience. I am just suggesting to try and see. To me this Bhumi-model (in addition to the awakening formula) is proved but I can appreciate that others need their own experience and study to be sure that that's how it actually is. However, knowing the problems of there not being a truly universal way to map out spiritual attainments regardless of school, I feel this is it, as it is not just another model with many difficult-to-figure-out-terms and so on, and so on. This Bhumi-model is easy to figure out and apply, but it does require first hand study.

>I do encourage you to try and devise a way to test your claims in a
scientific manner, and I would suggest that you try and get some
scientifically trained researcher, or, better, a scientific institution,
such as a university, involved. But, until you propose a scientifically
rigorous protocol, and this protocol is applied and verified by
independent sources, I think you should refrain from stating that your
claims are proved.

- OK. This is sort of a secular point of view. Personally I do not care at all if any of what I say is scientifically tested or proved in a science laboratory. I'm just not interested in that but I do see the value of that to some doubtful people, especially those who are stuck in figuring things out with their minds alone and who are either not interested or inclined to consider other ways credible. Fine with me.

However, I have to ask, what are we doing with dharma, with teachings? What it's about? To me it has always been about ending my self-caused confusion and helping others do the same. So what is most important is what is going on in our minds and what is expressed through our bodies. What matters is how we live our lives and understand our present existence, possibly also past and future existences. Right? Looking at it, from this angle, scientific papers are sort of irrelevant but I do respect people who are built that way.

Thank Neko-chan for wonderful comments...


Baba
Eva Nie, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:


- OK. This is sort of a secular point of view. Personally I do not care at all if any of what I say is scientifically tested or proved in a science laboratory. I'm just not interested in that but I do see the value of that to some doubtful people, especially those who are stuck in figuring things out with their minds alone and who are either not interested or inclined to consider other ways credible. Fine with me.

You are the one who has repeatedly said that you had shown empirical proof that your studies were valid.  Neko was pointing out that you have not shown any proof and that your theories are not 'studies' in any way..  Basically, this thing is an explanation of a theory that you have said you got via intuitions that came from the spirits of the dead.  Since your mind has the only criteria of what is right or wrong, no one else has any way to prove or disprove in any way any of it, the only potential validation would be your opinion.  This is just what you believe to be true in your head.  If you are not interested in proof, might be a good idea to no longer claim you have any proof for the reason that you don't have any.  The concept that you have proven it to yourself does not actually constitute 'proof,' it's just another fancy sounding way to say that it is your belief.  A belief or theory that does not have any proof at all is just a belief. 

You have a belief that you can look at photos of people and tell certain things about them and if others try to do it, you are also the only arbitor of if they have done it right, basically if they agree with what you say they should see, then only that makes it right.  Just because people do not choose to believe your unproven claims does not mean they are "stuck in figuring things out with their minds alone and who are either not interested or inclined to consider other ways credible," as you have said.  It only means that they do not believe without question your particular beliefs that have been presented here with both zero proof and zero evidence of validity or supposed source of coming from the knowledge of great dead masters through your personal intuition (but for whatever reason also looking a lot like cobbled together parts of various other methods currently in vogue).  But of course it makes sense that you believe your own beliefs, that's pretty typical of people and their own beliefs.  ;-P
-Eva
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-- Timus --, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 47 Join Date: 5/17/10 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:
… The thing is that this way of mapping attainments, as we do it in OH, is in it's baby stages. …

Bhumi Study Series:
… This Bhumi Study Series has been made public in order to bring awareness, lucidity and clarity to the present spiritual culture of the world by explaining and showing what many of our well known teachers have actually been able to attain. There is much confusion and lack of clarity about this topic, so we wanted to clarify this matter from our part, for the benefit of all. …

I would advice against using baby-stage stuff to rectify worldwide confusion. It usually won’t pan out.

Kim Katami:
… It is an in-depth study. …

I fail to see how this qualifies as a ‘study’ at all. It’s a couple of photographs of more or less well-known ’spiritual teachers’ tagged with your opinion regarding their level of spiritual attainment (according to the system you are using). I expect a study to be a bit more, well, elucidating, revealing, thoroughly laid out, etc. But maybe that’s just a language thing, I’m not a native English speaker.

Kim Katami:
… One really has to study empiripically what this study says and shows in pictures in order to understand it. …

I’d like to point out, that what neko proposed here is pretty much how an empirical study is done properly. But in my perception, you actually avoided to address most of his/her points.
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
-- Timus --:
Kim Katami:
… The thing is that this way of mapping attainments, as we do it in OH, is in it's baby stages. …

Bhumi Study Series:
… This Bhumi Study Series has been made public in order to bring awareness, lucidity and clarity to the present spiritual culture of the world by explaining and showing what many of our well known teachers have actually been able to attain. There is much confusion and lack of clarity about this topic, so we wanted to clarify this matter from our part, for the benefit of all. …

I would advice against using baby-stage stuff to rectify worldwide confusion. It usually won’t pan out.

Kim Katami:
… It is an in-depth study. …

I fail to see how this qualifies as a ‘study’ at all. It’s a couple of photographs of more or less well-known ’spiritual teachers’ tagged with your opinion regarding their level of spiritual attainment (according to the system you are using). I expect a study to be a bit more, well, elucidating, revealing, thoroughly laid out, etc. But maybe that’s just a language thing, I’m not a native English speaker.

Kim Katami:
… One really has to study empiripically what this study says and shows in pictures in order to understand it. …

I’d like to point out, that what neko proposed here is pretty much how an empirical study is done properly. But in my perception, you actually avoided to address most of his/her points.

Timus,

With "baby stages" I was referring to a point someone said about how each bhumi is actually experienced. You know, detailed description and not just experience. This explanation is in baby stages. The principle of this model doesn't and cannot develop in itself because it is based on the universal structure of the energetic body.

By "in-depth" study I mean to say that this topic or study is deep going as in very thorough way to map attainments.
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bernd the broter, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 380 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:

Practical application of Bhumi Mapping 


So.There is a realistic way to map both yourself and others with this
bhumi model. It requires in-depth studies and practice but after
engaging in it for a couple of years (beginners)
, it surely starts to
make sense and you can begin to see with your own eyes, what I have
presented in the materials.[...]

And next time when a naked guy with a fish in his mouth
comes to your door, you can just look into his eyes, and see what his
bhumi is. In the case of a mahasiddha it should be one of the three
highest ones, bhumis 11-13. And if it's just a naked guy posing as a
holyman, trying to get you to believe that he is a yogi when he actually
isn't, by checking his bhumi you come to know this, the truth of it.
Simple as that. Wonderful, isn't it?

To sum up: It takes a couple of years to apply the Bhumi identification technology accurately.
Question: How easy is it for an enlightenment impostor to fake a Bhumi, i.e. pass your Bhumi 11-13 test, without having lots of enlightenment him/herself? Is "a couple of years" enough to learn to fake it accurately?

If you insist that it is impossible to fake the Bhumi test - what makes you so sure?
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Kim Katami, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
bernd the broter
Kim Katami

Practical application of Bhumi Mapping 


So.There is a realistic way to map both yourself and others with this
bhumi model. It requires in-depth studies and practice but after
engaging in it for a couple of years (beginners)
, it surely starts to
make sense and you can begin to see with your own eyes, what I have
presented in the materials.[...]

And next time when a naked guy with a fish in his mouth
comes to your door, you can just look into his eyes, and see what his
bhumi is. In the case of a mahasiddha it should be one of the three
highest ones, bhumis 11-13. And if it's just a naked guy posing as a
holyman, trying to get you to believe that he is a yogi when he actually
isn't, by checking his bhumi you come to know this, the truth of it.
Simple as that. Wonderful, isn't it?
To sum up: It takes a couple of years to apply the Bhumi identification technology accurately.
Question: How easy is it for an enlightenment impostor to fake a Bhumi, i.e. pass your Bhumi 11-13 test, without having lots of enlightenment him/herself? Is "a couple of years" enough to learn to fake it accurately?

If you insist that it is impossible to fake the Bhumi test - what makes you so sure?

Bernd,

I can only answer this from my own experience and how I've seen my close students be able to analyze bhumis. These close students who have prior varying practice history ranging from 0-10+ years, and 3-6 years with me, have been able to get their own bhumis correctly, with pretty much the same introduction that I've given in this thread. It's not that difficult to get bhumis 1-6 right but the higher bhumis are more difficult because the differences between bhumis get so seemingless. This requires one's own extensive meditation practice on each bhumi in order to get it right. 

What I wrote above is that for people who are beginners, not at all familiar with energy work, with regular meditation practice, it takes perhaps a couple of years to see that it makes sense, to get a basic understanding of it experientially. Such a person will not learn this mapping system inside out within that time, surely not. But to apply it accurately, add at least a another few years, 5 years or more in total of regular study. For tantrics and energy healers who are meditators it could make sense very quickly though.

Faking bhumis huh? Haha. One can borrow energy from a deity, a guru, a holy place or whatever, for sure, but it's not the same. It doesn't matter what subtle or gross energy charge you have going in your body, the bhumi doesn't change because of this. Bhumi only  progresses with emptiness insight. Often in spiritual and energy healing circles, some teachers borrow powerful and often grossly vibrating energy just to impress people. This happens in spiritual and energy healing circles all the time and people go "Wow! This is such a great healer or a great guru! Must be a mahasiddha! This type of Reiki is so powerful!". But if you have done this training, you  won't be fooled by them because all this stuff has nothing to do with bhumi, neither affects the bhumi. In other words, it is not possible to "fake a bhumi". Of course, people can claim anything but a skilled craftsman is not fooled by mere talk.


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Chris J Macie, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Bhumi Study Series

Posts: 863 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:
A series of photographs of people before and after awakening (0-1st bhumi) has been published here. I am not aware that such a documentation has ever been published before.

http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.fi/2016/03/bhumi-study-series-part-6-before-and.html


I've been wondering what you've been up to -- you hadn't run a new ad (or re-run an old one) here for several days.
Small Steps, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 247 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
This thread's pretty amusing and I enjoyed the chat between Kim and Daniel, so thanks.

I have no experience with any of this bhumi stuff, but I have heard talk of energetic centers above the head in martial arts circles. Across Asian martial arts though, you'll hear references to "heaven, earth, man," which one could loosely tie to the idea of energetic centers existing way above and below (extending into the ground).

I'm familiar with these types of wild claims from those martial circles too. You'll find more people who prefer to talk than walk, but you can't really hide your skill once you touch hands. In many ways, I prefer the solidity and surety of those more physical exchanges.
C P M, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 219 Join Date: 5/23/13 Recent Posts
Small Steps:
This thread's pretty amusing and I enjoyed the chat between Kim and Daniel, so thanks.

I have no experience with any of this bhumi stuff, but I have heard talk of energetic centers above the head in martial arts circles. Across Asian martial arts though, you'll hear references to "heaven, earth, man," which one could loosely tie to the idea of energetic centers existing way above and below (extending into the ground).

I'm familiar with these types of wild claims from those martial circles too. You'll find more people who prefer to talk than walk, but you can't really hide your skill once you touch hands. In many ways, I prefer the solidity and surety of those more physical exchanges.
I know what you mean.  I've encountered this in the martial arts as well, people can become delusional when their beliefs are untested in the real word.  Here is a really good illustration of that dynamic:

https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-pleasures-of-drowning
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Small Steps:
This thread's pretty amusing and I enjoyed the chat between Kim and Daniel, so thanks.

I have no experience with any of this bhumi stuff, but I have heard talk
of energetic centers above the head in martial arts circles. Across
Asian martial arts though, you'll hear references to "heaven, earth,
man," which one could loosely tie to the idea of energetic centers
existing way above and below (extending into the ground).

I'm  familiar with these types of wild claims from those martial circles too.
You'll find more people who prefer to talk than walk, but you can't
really hide your skill once you touch hands. In many ways, I prefer the
solidity and surety of those more physical exchanges.

I'm sure this thread has been amusing... Don't know whether to laugh or cry, ha.

Good that you mention the "hands on" perspective. This is one of my favourite topics. I've also practiced martial arts, both soft and hard, since I was a kid, during the time span of 30 years. I've also done shiatsu-massage professionally. Whenever possible I like to demonstrate things physically through touch or show how I meditate, concentrate, chant, create intention or am attentive or whatever topic concerned so that people who attend can see or feel an example.

Full contact fighting is of course one thing. There's no room for subtle things there. But soft martial arts have a lot to offer for spiritual practitioners. I mean there's a lot in aikido, ki-aikido, aiki, yiquan, tai chi, push hands and so on that could greatly benefit meditators by making it physically perceivable. This could include things such as energy centers and claims of spiritual attainments which gentlemen are doubtful about. These things can be studied and demonstrated through touch. I've done such sessions with martial art professionals and experienced amateurs for several years, in Japan and Europe. Some of them are very skilled, high ranks in internal martial arts. But it has to be said that I haven't met but a couple of martial artists who really understood nondual mind and awareness in relation to their art and meditation.

These people are really rare. My teacher, Terayama Sensei, who I mentioned earlier was one of them. So was Sunadomari Kanshu Sensei who has a book and video out. And there are some others. Anyway.

This is mainly off topic but wanted to pitch in.
Small Steps, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 247 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
Kim Katami:

I'm sure this thread has been amusing... Don't know whether to laugh or cry, ha.

I know, right? emoticon

Kim Katami:

Good that you mention the "hands on" perspective. This is one of my favourite topics. I've also practiced martial arts, both soft and hard, since I was a kid, during the time span of 30 years. I've also done shiatsu-massage professionally. Whenever possible I like to demonstrate things physically through touch or show how I meditate, concentrate, chant, create intention or am attentive or whatever topic concerned so that people who attend can see or feel an example.

Full contact fighting is of course one thing. There's no room for subtle things there. But soft martial arts have a lot to offer for spiritual practitioners. I mean there's a lot in aikido, ki-aikido, aiki, yiquan, tai chi, push hands and so on that could greatly benefit meditators by making it physically perceivable. This could include things such as energy centers and claims of spiritual attainments which gentlemen are doubtful about. These things can be studied and demonstrated through touch. I've done such sessions with martial art professionals and experienced amateurs for several years, in Japan and Europe. Some of them are very skilled, high ranks in internal martial arts. But it has to be said that I haven't met but a couple of martial artists who really understood nondual mind and awareness in relation to their art and meditation.

I'm not talking about full contact fighting, more so the internal martial arts. Great that you have 30 years, but until we touch hands, it's all just talk (from me too, fwiw; I'm just as full of sh*t words on a message board till then).

Kim Katami:

These people are really rare. My teacher, Terayama Sensei, who I mentioned earlier was one of them. So was Sunadomari Kanshu Sensei who has a book and video out. And there are some others. Anyway.

This is mainly off topic but wanted to pitch in.


Curious... since there's been mention of spirit gurus and the like, why not ask O Sensei or some other famous teacher to show you the real deal aikido, tai ji, yi quan, ba gua, <pick your practice> and then go show it to someone/try it out. Again, not talking about full contact fighting, but trying out some high level push hands, aiki practice, or what not. As one of my teachers likes to say, "Understand? Now, show me!" emoticon
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Small Steps:

I'm not talking about full contact fighting, more so the internal martial arts. Great that you have 30 years, but until we touch hands, it's all just talk (from me too, fwiw; I'm just as full of sh*t words on a message board till then).

Kim Katami:

These people are really rare. My teacher, Terayama Sensei, who I mentioned earlier was one of them. So was Sunadomari Kanshu Sensei who has a book and video out. And there are some others. Anyway.

This is mainly off topic but wanted to pitch in.

Curious... since there's been mention of spirit gurus and the like, why not ask O-Sensei or some other famous teacher to show you the real deal aikido, tai ji, yi quan, ba gua, <pick your practice> and then go show it to someone/try it out. Again, not talking about full contact fighting, but trying out some high level push hands, aiki practice, or what not. As one of my teachers likes to say, "Understand? Now, show me!" emoticon
When I referred to sessions with martial art professionals and experienced amateurs for several years, in Japan and Europe, I meant private sessions, just two guys in the dojo testing things out. I've done this already. I do not have technical expertise of arts which forms I have not studied but when it comes to internal stuff, it has worked OK. By "it" I mean things I have learned from O-sensei and other long passed martial artists, also from ancient China. I have gone to meet these professionals who I didn't know before, one-on-one at the dojo. People like 5th dan aikijujutsu, 6th dan aikikai aikido. I ended up teaching a fellow who was 2nd dan ki-aikido. I am talking about principles beyond form.

But it's like you say, until we touch hands. 
mla7, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 11 Join Date: 10/16/13 Recent Posts
Hello,

I am curious if your students who are attaining what you are calling 5th and 6th bhumi for instance arrive at around the same level of raw meditative ability (in terms of concentration) as people who arrive at a similar bhumi level through another tradition (Theravada for example).

Or, do they somehow acquire high levels of enlightenment without the need to become "expert meditators".

  Thanks,
    Mike
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
mla7:
Hello,

I am curious if your students who are attaining what you are calling 5th and 6th bhumi for instance arrive at around the same level of raw meditative ability (in terms of concentration) as people who arrive at a similar bhumi level through another tradition (Theravada for example).
Or, do they somehow acquire high levels of enlightenment without the need to become "expert meditators".
Thanks,
Mike
Mike,

This is a good question. These days, having done years of concentration practices early on in my path, I'm pretty much of the opinion that the path of concentration is a detour, like a mis-understanding, in the first place. I say this because open space-like mind is ever there for anyone to find with simple pointing out. And always available, with proper instructions to cut through the biased mind-stuff to recognise it again. You don't need to do thousands of hours and many retreats of concentration practices in order to at some point "get there". To me, a method that starts to "build up" with concentration, goes through different states (jhana) of meditative absorption, just to one day get to open awareness, is sort of upside down in it's view. To me, it would make a lot more sense to first cut through to open awareness, recognise it, and then if wanted/needed, do concentration practices (concerning the relative bodymind) from open cognisant awareness (ultimate perspective).

So. What makes an expert meditator? One who is able to do onepointed concentration for an extended period of time? Or one who simply isn't distracted from being open? Whether you get to this attainment of 4th path or 6th bhumi (OHBM) by the classical gradual theravadan concentration path or by the instant atiyoga/dzogchen-style path, makes no difference in regards to the attainment. The attainment is the same but the path behind is different, in size, length and quality. What makes the attainment is deconstruction of the self. At 4th path or 6th bhumi, one is no longer for a second chopped by dualistic frame of mind. Therefore this level of attainment is important. But there are plenty of subtle hindrances. That is another discussion, though.

If you ask me what makes one an adept in meditation, first we have to define the type of meditation. If we are talking about being nondistracted, then sure, anyone hitting 6th bhumi is a skilled meditator, inevitably. Now. If the factors of being distracted are mostly gone, it is only natural to be able to concentrate as well.

I'd actually like to conduct a little experiment with this and get my students to film a few minutes of their open minded sitting, looking straight at the camera, for you to see into their mind-awareness state. Among the students there is also one man who has attained 4th path with a pragmatic dharma teacher, trained by Kenneth Folk. His bhumi, by the way, is also 6th. I will ask him to film a video as well. If these people are up for it, I will link the videos here. Would you like them to demonstrate concentration, like watching the breath, as well?

Here's my video from two years back, at the same 6th bhumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qqbtQjOiI&index=9&list=PLqTm9fV9DGhtMC0mMJXwEytpxTVbpX2Q-
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
One thing that I keep hearing from people who have done some theravada, zen or gradual vajrayana (like ngondro/preliminary practices) training is that eventually they get tired, bored and demotivated of all that "doing" caused by repetitive aim to remain concentrated (cultivation of intention). People just wish to get their heads straight (in nondualistic sense) but then they are told to do this and that, persevere the training, often with too little information of the goal. It's dualism within nondualist frame. In pragmatic dharma scene there is no mushroom factor, which is wonderful, but still as I said above, I feel that the gradual bodybuilding of the concentration muscle is sort of a mis-understanding.

Padmasambhava's quote:
"At the end of kaliyuga,
dzogchen will burgeon and flourish
while the lower vehicles will wane".

Hooray! emoticon
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

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Kim Katami:
mla7:
Hello,

I am curious if your students who are attaining what you are calling 5th and 6th bhumi for instance arrive at around the same level of raw meditative ability (in terms of concentration) as people who arrive at a similar bhumi level through another tradition (Theravada for example).
Or, do they somehow acquire high levels of enlightenment without the need to become "expert meditators".
Thanks,
Mike
...

I'd actually like to conduct a little experiment with this and get my students to film a few minutes of their open minded sitting, looking straight at the camera, for you to see into their mind-awareness state. Among the students there is also one man who has attained 4th path with a pragmatic dharma teacher, trained by Kenneth Folk. His bhumi, by the way, is also 6th. I will ask him to film a video as well. If these people are up for it, I will link the videos here. Would you like them to demonstrate concentration, like watching the breath, as well?

Here's my video from two years back, at the same 6th bhumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qqbtQjOiI&index=9&list=PLqTm9fV9DGhtMC0mMJXwEytpxTVbpX2Q-

1. Here's the first one, by the mentioned gentleman with a theravada background: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubz5GPQuP_k&feature=youtu.be

2. Here's the second one of 6th bhumi OH-students: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDhCNO_pO3Y

3. Third video, 6th bhumi OH-student: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ-diFLzHdI&feature=youtu.be

First (about) minute, openly aware, second (about) minute focusing on the breath and third (about) minute again openly aware. The video is put together from three separate short clips.

EDIT: Added the third YouTube-video.
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Added the third YouTube-video link to my prev message.
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baba ganoush, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 36 Join Date: 6/8/16 Recent Posts
Hi Kim

just consumed by curiosity here wondering what these videos reveal to those skilled enough to read them.
I'm a complete beginner and know nothing about the OHBM, i've no idea what your message is with these.

I looked at yrself as 6th bhumi and noticed some NLP style eye accessing cues at 0:57 an 2:00 approx (down left) which is normally interpereted as 'digital' ie mental chatter (maybe you were looking at a timer to switch focus??).  There was another video as 5th bhumi which had more frequent down left access....

And i also looked at Pauliina... at 1:15 she does a big 'down right' access, normally this is interpreted as 'accessing feelings', immediately before closing her eyes momentarily ('processing the feelings'??).

However even though these responses are hard wired into human neurology, not everyone has the same pattern so we can't be sure, you'd have to calibrate the person first, so what i just wrote is an educated guess.

I kind of thought i could detect some rapid micro eye movements sideways (auditory, 2 kinds), but it's hard to tell with the resolution. The wide eyed staring is often interpreted as a visual access, but i've often used 'switch to peripheral vision' ie defocus eyes as a way to induce a light trance.

Maybe you have a different take on it, can you explain? What is it specifically that you pick up on?  What would a skilled observer notice from these?


Best regards
BG
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
baba ganoush:
Hi Kim

just consumed by curiosity here wondering what these videos reveal to those skilled enough to read them.
I'm a complete beginner and know nothing about the OHBM, i've no idea what your message is with these.
I looked at yrself as 6th bhumi and noticed some NLP style eye accessing cues at 0:57 an 2:00 approx (down left) which is normally interpereted as 'digital' ie mental chatter (maybe you were looking at a timer to switch focus??).  There was another video as 5th bhumi which had more frequent down left access....
And i also looked at Pauliina... at 1:15 she does a big 'down right' access, normally this is interpreted as 'accessing feelings', immediately before closing her eyes momentarily ('processing the feelings'??).
However even though these responses are hard wired into human neurology, not everyone has the same pattern so we can't be sure, you'd have to calibrate the person first, so what i just wrote is an educated guess.
I kind of thought i could detect some rapid micro eye movements sideways (auditory, 2 kinds), but it's hard to tell with the resolution. The wide eyed staring is often interpreted as a visual access, but i've often used 'switch to peripheral vision' ie defocus eyes as a way to induce a light trance.
Maybe you have a different take on it, can you explain? What is it specifically that you pick up on?  What would a skilled observer notice from these?

Best regards
BG
Hi BG,

Both in mine and Pauliina's videos looking at the lower right or left corners mean looking at the timer of the recorder.

The purpose of these videos is to show how a person at this attainment is 1. openly aware and 2. how his/her haitus changes slightly then concentration is introduced. I made a mistake in my instruction. I should have asked them to add slightly more concentration so that the change would have been more observable. For this purpose, where the change is more clearly seen, I filmed this video myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM-NmSpOQPs Of course, nobody sits for an extended period of time with the volume of concentration turned up 100% but to make a point between attention and intention, that's the only point of this video. 

Activating peripheral/panoramic vision is a mahamudra/dzogchen-technique. Coincidentally, I've heard Navy Seals and special ops are also taught this when they get scared or nervous, i.e. get tunnel vision. What happes is that localisation as an entity located in time and space evaporates. Great technique, simple and direct.

When observing people who meditate, one learns to see into the minds of the people. It's just a skill of making observations and greatly helpful for anyone, especially teachers.  Many things can be communicated verbally but many things can't.

I don't know how often in various traditions teachers say to students, "OK, show me how you sit, only the posture... Ok, then show me how you watch the breath... OK, now show me how you strip of all doing and just be open... Good. Now, I'll show you".

So watching people sit and meditate, or apply different aspects of meditation like this on video, the same observations of the body, mind and awareness can be done.
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Noah, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 1532 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
@Kim:

Just wanted to say... that I like these ideas of embodiment.  They are not spoken enough of on here.  My teacher talks about what people do with their hands, feet, and facial muscles.  How still they are when they sit around whilst not meditating.  How much they flow silently when they walk.  I love these as gauges, they make more sense the more I practice them.  This is not to say that these are the ones that you use, but just to beat the drum of embodiment and integration, in general....
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

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Noah:
@Kim:

Just wanted to say... that I like these ideas of embodiment.  They are not spoken enough of on here.  My teacher talks about what people do with their hands, feet, and facial muscles.  How still they are when they sit around whilst not meditating.  How much they flow silently when they walk.  I love these as gauges, they make more sense the more I practice them.  This is not to say that these are the ones that you use, but just to beat the drum of embodiment and integration, in general....

Oh yeah. One thing that I learned from my Japanese zen-masters, who both were very skilled with their bodywork (the other one is a tai chi-teacher and the other one even created his own form of chi gong after studying several forms of martials arts, yoga and dance for decades, see video here) is 1. integrating non-physical body with the physical body and 2. how to read the bodymind of oneself and others. Yeah, much of what I have talked in this thread comes from Japanese rinzai zen and zen calligraphy. I talked about this here, earlier in this thread. When Terayama Sensei walked it was sheer poetry, just beautiful...

One thing that I've noticed about practicing ati yoga is that this open mind space, related to the primary sense organ (eyes), slowly becomes automatically connected and embodied by the physical body. Wonderful. A natural unfolding. The dichotomy of non-physical awareness and physical body wears off. A video tip here.
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baba ganoush, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 36 Join Date: 6/8/16 Recent Posts
Baba Kim...
For this purpose, where the change is more clearly seen, I filmed this video myself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM-NmSpOQPs

many thanks for making the effort, it's a lot clearer in there that there's something going on and nice tonality BTW.
It's complicated and you can't describe it simply (lot of muscles in the face), so now i feel like Carlos Castaneda watching Don Genaro demonstrate how to magickally climb that rock face and not seeing a damn thing :o(.
It's all a bit over my head so i've stopped concerning myself, but that was useful.
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
baba ganoush:

many thanks for making the effort, it's a lot clearer in there that there's something going on and nice tonality BTW.
It's complicated and you can't describe it simply (lot of muscles in the face), so now i feel like Carlos Castaneda watching Don Genaro demonstrate how to magickally climb that rock face and not seeing a damn thing :o(.
It's all a bit over my head so i've stopped concerning myself, but that was useful.
BG,

I understand. You're not the first one to not get it on first try. When teaching, and if time allows, I always demonstrate the very thing of the video (attention-intention-attention) to students so that they can see and feel it sitting around me observing but also through taking their hand to my hand, like when shaking hands, and demonstrating how it feels through physical contact. The change is not in the grip of the physical muscles and yet there are differences to how it feels because of the changes in intensity of intention created by mental concentration and it's absence with bare attention. That always makes it more understandable for them, than without the physical contact. This is an application from some inner martial and healing arts.
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Kim Katami, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Open Heart Bhumi Model

Posts: 698 Join Date: 2/5/13 Recent Posts
Hi folks,

Here are bhumis documented on video of several people, including gradual progressions from the 1st to 4th or 5th bhumis, and three cases of 6th bhumi (equals pragmatic dharma 4th path) who have proceeded further to 7th bhumi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kQNFO0p_08&list=PLqTm9fV9DGhvQjdBRYAM45uWuLUwmbqiM&index=22

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