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No-Self mode + Self mode = Interpreter mode

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RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
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12/30/13 12:27 AM as a reply to P K.
Not sure about that experience. But I agree that self and no-self are both problematic if we take them literally.

Just because we construct the self out of interdependent linkages between phenomenon doesn't mean that it isn't there.

There is no need to suppress the self. Just penetrate through illusions of it as something having a true essence.

To see the way the world and the self are constructed interdependently is enough, to dispel ignorance and stop suffering.

The self that disappears through insight is in my opinion just the aspects of grasping our brain has associated together as 'self'.

If think about it, there has never been a self to disappear or a no-self to appear.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
12/30/13 11:31 PM as a reply to P K.
Paweł K:

And why so much attention on removing all traces of self from everything if there is so much ecstatic bliss to get from accepting self as equal partner to no-self so both can disappear and/or fill each other?

Sounds like you haven't learned much from your insight meditation if what you perceive is a preference for "ecstatic bliss." This cannot be nibbana, can it. Keep pondering and examining the root of your experience. Sooner or later it will dawn on you.

Paweł K:

From this perspective permanently changing Self to no-Self looks like only changing apples for oranges...

It shouldn't. If it's done without self knowledge, then, maybe so – maybe it gives the illusion of "changing apples for oranges." And you are accepting that view as your reality.

If done with self realization (gnosis), it should be just the realization that there is no self in phenomena. Your life, as it was, still continues. You still have responsibilities, obligations and what not. It's just that now you know (have become aware) what you are doing each and every moment rather than experiencing everything as though in a dream over which you have little control.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
12/31/13 8:55 AM as a reply to P K.
At some point there will no longer really be either option, as the thing will just be the thing, the field as the field of sensations, of manifestation, of qualities, textures, colors, and aspects

call it True Self

call it no-self

regardless, it is happening, as it always has

and there are various modes of attention, as there always have been

and various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, it seems

and there is nobody to decide that this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field is either

but thoughts that it might be one or the other can still arise, as they did before

and in that direct perception, the divisionlessness of it eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes

though the sense of those apparent choices and decisions arising on their own may still occur

and this lack of a split, this lack of an illusion of some separate, permanent, continuous something that could truly stand outside of all of this and make such choices is seen through as part of the whole of the flickering, shimmering, transient thing

so look carefully at the patterns that seem to be deciding between those various modes and notice them and just get to know them, such that what is getting to know them and them are both clearly comprehended on their own, by themselves, aware/manifest where they are

and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception

spend time enjoying the nice ones if you wish, as all modes of attention reveal the universal truths if perceived clearly, so if the nice modes happen, perceive them clearly, and if the modes you don't like as much happen, perceive them clearly, though it is true that the most pleasant and unpleasant ones as well as the least interesting ones are not as easy for some to just see as they are, as our reactions of enjoyment, aversion and boredom may seem to cloud clear perception

but with clear comprehension from good practice, the fundamental truths reveal themselves, and a fluent clarity and facility in all states of manifestation becomes natural and habituated

such that apparent exceptions and finally the sense of fundamental options become finer and more subtle and may eventually vanish

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
12/31/13 10:24 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
At some point there will no longer really be either option, as the thing will just be the thing, the field as the field of sensations, of manifestation, of qualities, textures, colors, and aspects

regardless, it is happening, as it always has

and there are various modes of attention, as there always have been


and various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, it seems

and there is nobody to decide that this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field is either

but thoughts that it might be one or the other can still arise, as they did before

and in that direct perception, the divisionlessness of it eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes

though the sense of those apparent choices and decisions arising on their own may still occur


and this lack of a split, this lack of an illusion of some separate, permanent, continuous something that could truly stand outside of all of this and make such choices is seen through as part of the whole of the flickering, shimmering, transient thing

so look carefully at the patterns that seem to be deciding between those various modes and notice them and just get to know them
, such that what is getting to know them and them are both clearly comprehended on their own, by themselves, aware/manifest where they are

and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception

spend time enjoying the nice ones if you wish, as all modes of attention reveal the universal truths if perceived clearly, so if the nice modes happen, perceive them clearly, and if the modes you don't like as much happen, perceive them clearly, though it is true that the most pleasant and unpleasant ones as well as the least interesting ones are not as easy for some to just see as they are, as our reactions of enjoyment, aversion and boredom may seem to cloud clear perception

but with clear comprehension from good practice, the fundamental truths reveal themselves, and a fluent clarity and facility in all states of manifestation becomes natural and habituated

such that apparent exceptions and finally the sense of fundamental options become finer and more subtle and may eventually vanish

Well said. There's nothing to add to that.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/1/14 10:38 AM as a reply to Ian And.
The common way of looking at this is as you said, that there are zillions of sensations but we can only comprehend a limited number of them.

Except that perspective actually misses a really essential point that is strangely obvious once you think about it and yet also quite slippery, given how we are so used to not seeing things this say, or so we think.

That point is that each sensation already knew itself when it arose. If it arose, then the comprehension was build into it, intrinsic to it, the same as it.

We have this notion that there is some central comprehender, some liner processor of all of that stuff out there, and yet all of the stuff out there already processed itself it as it arose, as that arising was the processing, and what the seeming central processor does is to make some additional secondary impression (that is also just more sensations that are aware where they are and of themselves), but we actually believe that this secondary impression, this echo, this stand-in, is actually the awareness, the comprehension, when it is actually just a secondary effect from the first cause, that being the first sensation that the second sensation follows.

Said another way:

All of the sensations know themselves as and when and where they are, always have, always will, couldn't be any other way. Awareness and phenomena just always are not n a 1:1 ratio, they are actually just the same thing.

When reality seems filtered through this odd secondary central processing habit, it appears that some middleman, some potentially overburdened one-at-a-time system, is perceiving them, when actually it is just making poor copies one at a time of something that is vast and rich and already comprehended itself and never really actually needed any poor copies made to already be known.

So, just let the field in all of its richness speak for itself, including the small, central, limited copying process, and, seen thusly, the knot of perception that doesn't realize that the things already happened and already knew themselves will eventually and perhaps in stages shift to the whole thing knowing itself directly, as it actually always has but just somehow failed to know that at the level that makes the difference.

I, for one, see no reason not to enjoy the state you are able to get into, as, done well, most such things get boring after a time, no matter how amazing, and eventually familiarity with it will, if you are lucky and when the thrill and novelty wear off, lead to better and more clear senate comprehension, which is the first basis of insight.

Dukkha is a power hog only because it fails to realize that the work was already done, that phenomena already knew themselves naturally, and so it is when that overcompensation stops that the whole thing fully knows that it shines on its own without having to do anything.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/1/14 8:57 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

That point is that each sensation already knew itself when it arose. If it arose, then the comprehension was build into it, intrinsic to it, the same as it.


Great stuff. This post seems to answer a question I wanted to ask you about whether a customised form of Advaita practice could possibly lead to the same/similar results as hardcore dharma. Based on this post, it seems like it might.

Bear in mind that all this is strategy designed to undermine dualistic illusions, not metaphysics / ontology.

Start with the notion that awareness is that to which phenomena appear. Think of it as the unseen seer. Discover that awareness can never be located as a phenomenon. It can never have the properties of an object, gross or subtle. Yet its presence can't be doubted.

Next, discover that objects of awareness can't truly be distinguished from awareness itself. No such distinction is ever actually experienced. Objects, in that sense, "are" awareness. (Again, not talking metaphysics here, talking strategy).

This leads to the discovery that nonduality is not a special experience, it's actually inescapable. All experience is already undivided. But the fact that attention is continually echoing and bouncing around between notions of "the world" and a central comprehender -- (both of which are 'objects') -- seemingly obscures the effortlessly 'self-luminous' quality of phenomena. And when that settles down and becomes clear, one can rest. It's happening by itself. (And then the scaffolding ideas are no longer needed... and it'd be foolish to cling to them).

Again, I'd emphasise that, as metaphysics, this sucks. But as a strategy for reducing dualistic illusions and the needless tensions, frustrations and thwarted efforts that arise from them, it seems to work pretty well. (I did this for a while back in 2006, but didn't take it all the way... ie. didn't take it to the point that it became the effortless default).

--

Edited to add: To pre-empt any queries as to whether I conceive this to be a PCE.... no. It's different. (Not just because it includes feelings but because it includes that whole 'dimension' in which feelings and other psychic elements arise).

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/2/14 7:33 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I am actually talking about something much more fundamental than the way you seem to read me, as I interpret your words.

It can be hardwired, become the way all sensate phenomena are perceived, which is to say perceive themselves, as it actually always was the way all phenomena were manifesting, but this can finally be known directly and automatically without exception and regardless of things like states, modes, chakras, insight stages, and all of that, as, being the way things are, is intrinsic to however the specifics manifest in all their rich occurrence.

RE: No-Self mode + Self mode = ???
Answer
1/3/14 2:37 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception


Thank you! Just wanted to say that this was very relevant for me. Good stuff in this thread!