Thanissaro Against Non-duality - Discussion
Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 2:13 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 2:13 AM
Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I read some pf his book on romanticism and it really caught my attention how he always points out that the True Dhamma™ is NOT AT ALL about non-duality. If Thanissaro is enlightened, he must have some other kind of enlightenment than Daniel Ingram and company, then, right? I personally really can't see how anatta does not equal advaita.
The worst thing is that Thanissaro kinda has grounds for this view (hehehe bad word) in the suttas, at least in his translation.
please take a look at his fore word to the Water-Snake Simile sutta:
you can skip to the paragraph starting with "Two mistaken inferences..."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html
and then in the sutta, there is this quote:
:
"Yes, lord."
"Or, monks, where there is what belongs to self, would there be [the thought,] 'my self'?"
"Yes, lord."
"Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?"
Thanissaro uses this to show how the True Dhamma™ is completely different than non-duality mysticism like tantra, sufism, chrostian esoterism etc. But a) I can't see the big diffetence between "I'm not" and "I'm everything". b) a lot of you guys seem quite eclectic and see the goal of all spiritual traditions as the same. I really want this to be true haha
And also, I heard from a guy who is a tantrika, magician, alchemist, everything and he looked at the quote and went "yeah he's got a point". And then he refused to explain what he meant because "you shouldn't build yourself constructions about a deconstruction".
I'm confused. How does Not-Self and Self=God (not) go together? I think they do but Thanissaro and the sutta he quotes seems to say the opposite. What do you think? I know you guys aren't into hermeneutics a lot but can you see any other way to interpret the sutta than the way Thanissaro does it?
If non-duality is real and the suttas speak against it, maybe they're just full of shit haha
The worst thing is that Thanissaro kinda has grounds for this view (hehehe bad word) in the suttas, at least in his translation.
please take a look at his fore word to the Water-Snake Simile sutta:
you can skip to the paragraph starting with "Two mistaken inferences..."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html
and then in the sutta, there is this quote:
:
"Yes, lord."
"Or, monks, where there is what belongs to self, would there be [the thought,] 'my self'?"
"Yes, lord."
"Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?"
Thanissaro uses this to show how the True Dhamma™ is completely different than non-duality mysticism like tantra, sufism, chrostian esoterism etc. But a) I can't see the big diffetence between "I'm not" and "I'm everything". b) a lot of you guys seem quite eclectic and see the goal of all spiritual traditions as the same. I really want this to be true haha
And also, I heard from a guy who is a tantrika, magician, alchemist, everything and he looked at the quote and went "yeah he's got a point". And then he refused to explain what he meant because "you shouldn't build yourself constructions about a deconstruction".
I'm confused. How does Not-Self and Self=God (not) go together? I think they do but Thanissaro and the sutta he quotes seems to say the opposite. What do you think? I know you guys aren't into hermeneutics a lot but can you see any other way to interpret the sutta than the way Thanissaro does it?
If non-duality is real and the suttas speak against it, maybe they're just full of shit haha
tom moylan, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 2:50 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 2:50 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Posts
howdy Pal,
i subscribe to the KISS school. (Keep It Simple Stupid) ... the stupid one being myself of course.
I like the phrase / word non-dual because it doesn't really take a stand. it eschews the splitting of the world
along subject / object lines. it holds to the no-self tenets but doesn't go the half step farther of saying what it is. it is a non view View. Pfew.
when goeff takes a stand and says its wrong or not complete or misleading thats a view too or? i like the 'middle wayness' of non-dual.
if the 3Cs apply to every thing, why would "the cosmic Self" be excepted? even if we want to believe in such a thing what would that be? consiousness is compounded and dependent. karmic tendencies are also conditioned and dependent right? are the part of 'the cosmic Self'.
to ask about whether geoff's enlightenment is different goes against my personal grain. i BELIEVE that we are all playing by one set of fundamental rules irrespective of our worldling 'take' on it.
i subscribe to the KISS school. (Keep It Simple Stupid) ... the stupid one being myself of course.
I like the phrase / word non-dual because it doesn't really take a stand. it eschews the splitting of the world
along subject / object lines. it holds to the no-self tenets but doesn't go the half step farther of saying what it is. it is a non view View. Pfew.
when goeff takes a stand and says its wrong or not complete or misleading thats a view too or? i like the 'middle wayness' of non-dual.
if the 3Cs apply to every thing, why would "the cosmic Self" be excepted? even if we want to believe in such a thing what would that be? consiousness is compounded and dependent. karmic tendencies are also conditioned and dependent right? are the part of 'the cosmic Self'.
to ask about whether geoff's enlightenment is different goes against my personal grain. i BELIEVE that we are all playing by one set of fundamental rules irrespective of our worldling 'take' on it.
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:39 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 7:12 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Pål(12/15/15 2:13 AM)
"… he [Thanissaro Bhikkhu] always points out that the True Dhamma™ is NOT AT ALL about non-duality."
What if he's saying it's at all not about non-duality, just as it's not at all about duality?
"The conceptual framework upon which … dichtomies .. are based has ceased to function for the sage [unbound, released one], even when he is alive." (Alexander Wynne's paraphrase of Sutta-Nipata, 1075-1076)
"… Thanissaro uses this to show how the True Dhamma™ is completely different than non-duality mysticism like…"
"… a) I can't see the big difference between "I'm not" and "I'm everything". b) a lot of you guys seem quite eclectic and see the goal of all spiritual traditions as the same."
Than-Geoff deals with this in detail in the section on the Perennial Philosophy, as you may recall.
"… How does Not-Self and Self=God (not) go together? I think they do but Thanissaro and the sutta he quotes seems to say the opposite…."
Understanding views, how they can be used skilfully, and when they become useless, along the way to understanding suffering and attaining release from it.
Alexander Piatagorsky (The Philosophy of Buddhist Thought, 1984)* observed that ALL the Western attempts to grasp Buddhist thought (up to 1982), going back a couple of centuries, and in all the languages, could only cope by shoe-horning it into some kind of Western conceptual framework; that is to say, completely missing the point – the radical suspension of all conceptual frameworks as essential part of the goal (as in Than-Geoff's sense of the Buddha's teaching).
Big surprise that little has changed since 1984?
*http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/The%20Buddhist%20Philosophy%20of%20Thought_Piatigorsky.pdf
"… he [Thanissaro Bhikkhu] always points out that the True Dhamma™ is NOT AT ALL about non-duality."
What if he's saying it's at all not about non-duality, just as it's not at all about duality?
"The conceptual framework upon which … dichtomies .. are based has ceased to function for the sage [unbound, released one], even when he is alive." (Alexander Wynne's paraphrase of Sutta-Nipata, 1075-1076)
"… Thanissaro uses this to show how the True Dhamma™ is completely different than non-duality mysticism like…"
"… a) I can't see the big difference between "I'm not" and "I'm everything". b) a lot of you guys seem quite eclectic and see the goal of all spiritual traditions as the same."
Than-Geoff deals with this in detail in the section on the Perennial Philosophy, as you may recall.
"… How does Not-Self and Self=God (not) go together? I think they do but Thanissaro and the sutta he quotes seems to say the opposite…."
Understanding views, how they can be used skilfully, and when they become useless, along the way to understanding suffering and attaining release from it.
Alexander Piatagorsky (The Philosophy of Buddhist Thought, 1984)* observed that ALL the Western attempts to grasp Buddhist thought (up to 1982), going back a couple of centuries, and in all the languages, could only cope by shoe-horning it into some kind of Western conceptual framework; that is to say, completely missing the point – the radical suspension of all conceptual frameworks as essential part of the goal (as in Than-Geoff's sense of the Buddha's teaching).
Big surprise that little has changed since 1984?
*http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/The%20Buddhist%20Philosophy%20of%20Thought_Piatigorsky.pdf
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 7:26 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 7:23 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
I think you may be missing the point of the article. He starts it with the first words, "This is a discourse about clinging to views (ditthi)" With the argument that YOU SHOULD NOT CLING TO VIEWS and that right view is not clinging to views. So if you read that and then your next question is 'Yeah but which view should I cling to, ie which view is right?' then IMO you have missed the main tenant of the article, ie not to cling to views.
If you look up the wiki for ditthi, it says:
"View or position (Palidiṭṭhi, Sanskritdṛṣṭi) is a central idea in Buddhism.[1]
In Buddhist thought, in contrast with the commonsense understanding, a
view is not a simple, abstract collection of propositions, but a charged
interpretation of experience which intensely shapes and affects
thought, sensation, and action.[2] Having the proper mental attitude toward views is therefore considered an integral part of the Buddhist path.[3]
Views are produced by and in turn produce mental conditioning. They are symptoms of conditioning, rather than neutral alternatives individuals can dispassionately choose.[4] The Buddha, according to the discourses, having attained the state of unconditioned mind, is said to have "passed beyond the bondage, tie, greed, obsession, acceptance, attachment, and lust of view."[5]
Those who wish to experience nirvana must free themselves from everything binding them to the world, including philosophical and religious doctrines.[9]Right view
as the first part of the Noble Eightfold Path leads ultimately not to
the holding of correct views, but to a detached form of cognition.[10][11]"
So anyway to say that Thanissaro is AGAINST Non-duality is IMO quite inaccurate, IMO he is against clinging strongly to any views, in any particular direction, to do that would be neither for or against nonduality. In other articles I have read by him, he takes a strong position that the teaching of Gautama have an emphasis of something like 'if you think of things this and that way, then it leads you to enlightenment but that those ways of thinking are merely tools to lead to a particular outcome' so Thanissaro basically argues, and I think with many good examples from Gautama's teaching, that Gautama's instructions on how to think are tools that when used, are more likely to lead to enlightenment.
An example in modern times would be that they say if you are very nervous when giving a public speech, you can think of the audience as all being in their underwear and this will help you be less nervous. The point is the idea that people might be in their underwear is just a tool to lead to a certain wanted outcome, but no one suggests you should cling to the idea that they truly have no outer clothes or think about people all the time like that (or even to dig deeper and hypothesize that every one in public is also in their underwear at a deeper level). All that would be taking the thought tool too far and beyond being no longer useful, would probably be detrimental. You just use the idea in specific circumstances to help you get to a wanted state of mind, but once you are able to get comfortable public speaking, ie the wanted state of mind, then you will no longer need that thought tool crutch and you should let it go.
But here is the tricky part, I think Thanissaro makes the same argument for ideas of not self, he explains often that specific ideas of not self (along with other teachings) were used by Gautama to yield a certain state of mind, that stage of mind would be enlightenment. But Gautama also warned not to cling to ideas of not self too strongly in a more overarching universal way, but just to use them as tools to get to the other side. Thanissaro says about Gautama, "Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the idea that there is no self." Thanissaro also often tries to point out the diff between no self and not self. To say a bunch of things are not self is not the same as saying there is no self at all anywhere ever and that 'right view,' as is clearly said in many of Gautama's words is NEITHER clinging to the idea of self, NOR clinging to the idea of not self. The way to enlightenment is to cling to neither idea. The way to enlightenment is to cling to neither view.
So again, if you make an argument for or against self as the ultimate reality, then you may be missing the point of the article. He uses Gautama's simile of the raft as an example. The right view ways of thinking, such as not self, are like a raft that you assemble and use to cross the river and get to the far shore (ie enlightenment), but once you get to the far shore, you do not cling to the raft but you let it go, you do not cling to any particular view and you do not cling to disbelieving any particular view either. The ways of thinking that Gautama taught were just tools to get to the far shore, once you cross the river and get to the far shore, it's silly to try to carry that old raft around, once the tools have done their job, they are no longer needed. Use the tools as tools but don't cling to them beyond that.
So does Gautama advocate no self or does he advocate self or does he advocate nonduality or not nonduality? The argument is no, in his words , "Both formerly and now monks, I advocate only stress and the cessation of stress" The rest are just tools! THought methods he advocates are only tools to be used to reach the far shore, after that they have no use and would be a burden and so should not be clinged to.
From my own perspective, what I see is that most people really want to have a view on most things and then cling to it. People like to have 'the answer,' even if the answer seems largely unknowable and would IMO be a wild hairy guess, people like to pick one and then defend it anyway. Maybe people feel very uncomfortable with not having a strong view? Even when Thanissaro tries to make a whole article about how one should not cling to views, almost everybody seems to immediately turn that into an argument of which view is correct. Seems like the desire to cling to views is so amazingly strong that people have immense difficulty even conceiving of not doing it. Even after a whole article aimed at telling people not to cling to a view, the first thing people seem to do is immediately clasp more tightly to their view and make an argument for one of the views being right or wrong. ;-P
Well anyway, people may not agree with Thanissaro's interpretation but he has done a heck of a lot of research and backed his statements very very well with examples of Gautama's teachings. I have yet to read any good refutations of Thanissaro's arguments with even half the backing and evidence that he gives. I suspect the main issue is that people really like their views and clinging to them so Thanissaro's words have a hard time sinking in past that clinging. People tend to respond best when they are told something they want to hear and Thanissaro is telling people something they probably don't want to hear.
-Eva
If you look up the wiki for ditthi, it says:
"View or position (Palidiṭṭhi, Sanskritdṛṣṭi) is a central idea in Buddhism.[1]
In Buddhist thought, in contrast with the commonsense understanding, a
view is not a simple, abstract collection of propositions, but a charged
interpretation of experience which intensely shapes and affects
thought, sensation, and action.[2] Having the proper mental attitude toward views is therefore considered an integral part of the Buddhist path.[3]
Views are produced by and in turn produce mental conditioning. They are symptoms of conditioning, rather than neutral alternatives individuals can dispassionately choose.[4] The Buddha, according to the discourses, having attained the state of unconditioned mind, is said to have "passed beyond the bondage, tie, greed, obsession, acceptance, attachment, and lust of view."[5]
Those who wish to experience nirvana must free themselves from everything binding them to the world, including philosophical and religious doctrines.[9]Right view
as the first part of the Noble Eightfold Path leads ultimately not to
the holding of correct views, but to a detached form of cognition.[10][11]"
So anyway to say that Thanissaro is AGAINST Non-duality is IMO quite inaccurate, IMO he is against clinging strongly to any views, in any particular direction, to do that would be neither for or against nonduality. In other articles I have read by him, he takes a strong position that the teaching of Gautama have an emphasis of something like 'if you think of things this and that way, then it leads you to enlightenment but that those ways of thinking are merely tools to lead to a particular outcome' so Thanissaro basically argues, and I think with many good examples from Gautama's teaching, that Gautama's instructions on how to think are tools that when used, are more likely to lead to enlightenment.
An example in modern times would be that they say if you are very nervous when giving a public speech, you can think of the audience as all being in their underwear and this will help you be less nervous. The point is the idea that people might be in their underwear is just a tool to lead to a certain wanted outcome, but no one suggests you should cling to the idea that they truly have no outer clothes or think about people all the time like that (or even to dig deeper and hypothesize that every one in public is also in their underwear at a deeper level). All that would be taking the thought tool too far and beyond being no longer useful, would probably be detrimental. You just use the idea in specific circumstances to help you get to a wanted state of mind, but once you are able to get comfortable public speaking, ie the wanted state of mind, then you will no longer need that thought tool crutch and you should let it go.
But here is the tricky part, I think Thanissaro makes the same argument for ideas of not self, he explains often that specific ideas of not self (along with other teachings) were used by Gautama to yield a certain state of mind, that stage of mind would be enlightenment. But Gautama also warned not to cling to ideas of not self too strongly in a more overarching universal way, but just to use them as tools to get to the other side. Thanissaro says about Gautama, "Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the idea that there is no self." Thanissaro also often tries to point out the diff between no self and not self. To say a bunch of things are not self is not the same as saying there is no self at all anywhere ever and that 'right view,' as is clearly said in many of Gautama's words is NEITHER clinging to the idea of self, NOR clinging to the idea of not self. The way to enlightenment is to cling to neither idea. The way to enlightenment is to cling to neither view.
So again, if you make an argument for or against self as the ultimate reality, then you may be missing the point of the article. He uses Gautama's simile of the raft as an example. The right view ways of thinking, such as not self, are like a raft that you assemble and use to cross the river and get to the far shore (ie enlightenment), but once you get to the far shore, you do not cling to the raft but you let it go, you do not cling to any particular view and you do not cling to disbelieving any particular view either. The ways of thinking that Gautama taught were just tools to get to the far shore, once you cross the river and get to the far shore, it's silly to try to carry that old raft around, once the tools have done their job, they are no longer needed. Use the tools as tools but don't cling to them beyond that.
So does Gautama advocate no self or does he advocate self or does he advocate nonduality or not nonduality? The argument is no, in his words , "Both formerly and now monks, I advocate only stress and the cessation of stress" The rest are just tools! THought methods he advocates are only tools to be used to reach the far shore, after that they have no use and would be a burden and so should not be clinged to.
From my own perspective, what I see is that most people really want to have a view on most things and then cling to it. People like to have 'the answer,' even if the answer seems largely unknowable and would IMO be a wild hairy guess, people like to pick one and then defend it anyway. Maybe people feel very uncomfortable with not having a strong view? Even when Thanissaro tries to make a whole article about how one should not cling to views, almost everybody seems to immediately turn that into an argument of which view is correct. Seems like the desire to cling to views is so amazingly strong that people have immense difficulty even conceiving of not doing it. Even after a whole article aimed at telling people not to cling to a view, the first thing people seem to do is immediately clasp more tightly to their view and make an argument for one of the views being right or wrong. ;-P
Well anyway, people may not agree with Thanissaro's interpretation but he has done a heck of a lot of research and backed his statements very very well with examples of Gautama's teachings. I have yet to read any good refutations of Thanissaro's arguments with even half the backing and evidence that he gives. I suspect the main issue is that people really like their views and clinging to them so Thanissaro's words have a hard time sinking in past that clinging. People tend to respond best when they are told something they want to hear and Thanissaro is telling people something they probably don't want to hear.
-Eva
Mark, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 9:30 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 9:30 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 554 Join Date: 7/24/14 Recent PostsChris J Macie:
Alexander Piatagorsky (The Philosophy of Buddhist Thought, 1984)* observed that ALL the Western attempts to grasp Buddhist thought (up to 1982), going back a couple of centuries, and in all the languages, could only cope by shoe-horning it into some kind of Western conceptual framework; that is to say, completely missing the point – the radical suspension of all conceptual frameworks as essential part of the goal (as in Than-Geoff's sense of the Buddha's teaching).
Big surprise that little has changed since 1984?
*http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/The%20Buddhist%20Philosophy%20of%20Thought_Piatigorsky.pdf
Western attempts to grasp Buddhist thought, missing the point, seems fair. But isn't the idea of "radical suspension of all conceptual frameworks" about Eastern thought missing the point or maybe just more Western missing of the point ?
The Dhamma is a conceptual framework and an experience of a "suspension of all conceptual frameworks" is influenced by that framework.
This idea of a "pure experience" just seems like more "missing of the point". Maybe I'm just in a grumpy mood
Mark, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 9:42 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 9:42 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 554 Join Date: 7/24/14 Recent Posts
When I see non-duality on DhO I typically think of a change in experience. Then people can lay various concepts over that e.g. god, the absolute (the list is quite long it seems). An analogy is an OBE, this might convince someone they have a soul but the concept of soul is not part of the experience it is a concept added into an experience to make a coherent story. I don't see the contradiction with the notion of a non-dual experience and the passage cited.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:01 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:01 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
So are you saying that the point that the Buddha tries to make in the sutta quote is "don't interpret your experience, however advanced it may be"?
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:12 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:12 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
That might be tha case. Maybe I'm just reading this in but what really disturbs me in both his "Buddhist Romanticism" and his comments on the sutta is the grumpy tone of "only the True Dhamma™ is a valid path to the Real Enlightenment™ and all other mystical traditions don't get it and are just trying to become "One with God" which is completely irrellevant".
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:16 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I'm not satisfied with the way he deals with the topic in the part about Perennial Philosofy..
Please see my post to Eva.
Please see my post to Eva.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:34 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:34 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsPål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:40 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 10:40 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Yes it goes against my grain too, which is why I find his writings provocative. My grain, in this case, might be affected by the fact that I really want the hermetic tradition to lead to the same enlightenment as the buddhist.
Noah, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 11:11 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 11:11 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Chris:
+1... This is the sutta view, methinks.....
Pal:
....Which is to avoid interpreting what your experience says about who you are, or what the universe is. Always interpret your experience based on what works for happiness and what does not.
the radical suspension of all conceptual frameworks as essential part of the goal (as in Than-Geoff's sense of the Buddha's teaching).
+1... This is the sutta view, methinks.....
Pal:
So are you saying that the point that the Buddha tries to make in the sutta quote is "don't interpret your experience, however advanced it may be"?
....Which is to avoid interpreting what your experience says about who you are, or what the universe is. Always interpret your experience based on what works for happiness and what does not.
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 12:37 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 12:34 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsPål:
I can't see the big diffetence between "I'm not" and "I'm everything"
So, from that view there would be no difference between I'm not and I'm everything, because , perhaps, there never was an I to be or not to be anyways.
Psi
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:02 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:02 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsPål:
That might be tha case. Maybe I'm just reading this in but what really disturbs me in both his "Buddhist Romanticism" and his comments on the sutta is the grumpy tone of "only the True Dhamma™ is a valid path to the Real Enlightenment™ and all other mystical traditions don't get it and are just trying to become "One with God" which is completely irrellevant".
-Eva
Mark, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:09 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:09 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 554 Join Date: 7/24/14 Recent PostsPål:
So are you saying that the point that the Buddha tries to make in the sutta quote is "don't interpret your experience, however advanced it may be"?
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:16 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:16 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsNoah:
Chris:
+1... This is the sutta view, methinks.....
Pal:
....Which is to avoid interpreting what your experience says about who you are, or what the universe is. Always interpret your experience based on what works for happiness and what does not.
the radical suspension of all conceptual frameworks as essential part of the goal (as in Than-Geoff's sense of the Buddha's teaching).
+1... This is the sutta view, methinks.....
Pal:
So are you saying that the point that the Buddha tries to make in the sutta quote is "don't interpret your experience, however advanced it may be"?
....Which is to avoid interpreting what your experience says about who you are, or what the universe is. Always interpret your experience based on what works for happiness and what does not.
The only caveat I would have is that it may not be possible pre enlightenment to operate with zero conceptual frameworks and interpretations as those are what the mind likes to do. But if you hold those ideas lightly with the attitude of something like that they are just tools to get you across the river and you are not thinking you know for sure they are correct or incorrect, only that they (hopefully) are working for you right now, then that is the right way to successfully get across the river. From my perspective, to hold them only lightly makes you safe from clinging onto something that might be hindering you. IMO, the universe is not simple or cut and dry, to strongly hold beliefs that are simple and cut and dry may in fact block you from a larger understanding. But if you do not cling to beliefs too strongly, then your mind is free to expand to new levels of understanding. Then you might think these new levels of conceptualization are more right and may feel inclined to cling to them, but beyond are even more expanded levels of understanding and so it's still in your best interest not to cling. IMO, clinging blocks progress and makes you not open to change and expansion. There's that old saying, "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know." ;-P
-Eva
Chuck Kasmire, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:31 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:31 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 560 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent PostsEva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:35 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 1:35 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsPsi:
Pål:
I can't see the big diffetence between "I'm not" and "I'm everything"
So, from that view there would be no difference between I'm not and I'm everything, because , perhaps, there never was an I to be or not to be anyways.
Psi
I find Thanissaro's interpretation very interesting. IMO it paints Gautama as the ultimate and original pragmatic Buddhist. He says don't hold dogmatically to ANY views, instead you are just going to use various views as tools that seem to help lead to lack of suffering. He is not saying we know for sure these views are entirely correct in the universe exactly, he only is saying they seem to work to get you across the river, after that, you cut them loose, let the raft go, which will be much easier if you aren't clinging with a death grip to it, as you are there and you don't need those crutches any more. If you cling to the raft (which IMO is heavy) then you may not be able to get out of the river even if you are close to shoreor you will be dragging the raft around with you on your back which will slow you down considerably. The views are tools that you should choose and make use of with control of thought, but if you just grab them by the tail and let the views control you and swing you around then this would not be right view according to Thanissaro's interpreation of Gautama (IMO).
-Eva
Noah, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 2:41 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 2:41 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
@OP:
Came across this, it seemed relevant.
DN 9.31:
Then the wanderers, as soon as the Lord had left, reproached,
sneered and jeered at Potthapada from all sides,
saying: 'Whatever the ascetic Gotama says, Potthapada agrees
with him: "So it is, Lord, so it is, Well-Farer!" We don't
understand a word of the ascetic Gotama's whole discourse:
"Is the world eternal or not? - Is it finite or infinite? - Is the
soul the same as the body or different? - Does the Tathagata
exist after death or not, or both, or neither?"'
Poffhapada replied: 'I don't understand either about whether
the world is eternal or not. . .or whether the Tathagata exists
after death or not, or both, or neither. But the ascetic Gotama
teaches a true and real way of practice which is consonant
with Dhamma and grounded in Dhamma. And why should
not a man like me express approval of such a true and real
practice, so well taught by the ascetic Gotama?'
Came across this, it seemed relevant.
DN 9.31:
Then the wanderers, as soon as the Lord had left, reproached,
sneered and jeered at Potthapada from all sides,
saying: 'Whatever the ascetic Gotama says, Potthapada agrees
with him: "So it is, Lord, so it is, Well-Farer!" We don't
understand a word of the ascetic Gotama's whole discourse:
"Is the world eternal or not? - Is it finite or infinite? - Is the
soul the same as the body or different? - Does the Tathagata
exist after death or not, or both, or neither?"'
Poffhapada replied: 'I don't understand either about whether
the world is eternal or not. . .or whether the Tathagata exists
after death or not, or both, or neither. But the ascetic Gotama
teaches a true and real way of practice which is consonant
with Dhamma and grounded in Dhamma. And why should
not a man like me express approval of such a true and real
practice, so well taught by the ascetic Gotama?'
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 3:15 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 3:15 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I guess my main problem is that I've gotten in touch with a Golden Dawn-ish group (the rosicrucian tradition, not the nazi party) and something screams for me to walk that path and jump on that train to enlightenment before it's too late. That tradition is all about the HGA and union with some higher self as well as the idea that at the core all religions have the same goal. I just need some Buddha figure to pop up and give approval and say "yes that will lead to the same enlightenment as what I taught 2500 years ago, your next ten years of practice will not be a waste if time". While Daniel actually recommended that kind of practice (Golden Dawn magick) in an earlier thread he seems to be all about nonduality/true self=anatta and here comes one of my main buddhist inspirations Thanissaro Bhikkhu and all over his book (buddhist romanticism) he says that ideas of monism (non-duality) is irrellevant to the dhamma. It's not just a view to let go of after having used it, like the raft, it's even straying from the path.
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 3:42 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 3:42 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsEva M Nie:
Psi:
Pål:
I can't see the big diffetence between "I'm not" and "I'm everything"
So, from that view there would be no difference between I'm not and I'm everything, because , perhaps, there never was an I to be or not to be anyways.
Psi
I find Thanissaro's interpretation very interesting. IMO it paints Gautama as the ultimate and original pragmatic Buddhist. He says don't hold dogmatically to ANY views, instead you are just going to use various views as tools that seem to help lead to lack of suffering. He is not saying we know for sure these views are entirely correct in the universe exactly, he only is saying they seem to work to get you across the river, after that, you cut them loose, let the raft go, which will be much easier if you aren't clinging with a death grip to it, as you are there and you don't need those crutches any more. If you cling to the raft (which IMO is heavy) then you may not be able to get out of the river even if you are close to shoreor you will be dragging the raft around with you on your back which will slow you down considerably. The views are tools that you should choose and make use of with control of thought, but if you just grab them by the tail and let the views control you and swing you around then this would not be right view according to Thanissaro's interpreation of Gautama (IMO).
-Eva
But, I do seem to be going a step further than Thanissaro on No Self. I am stating that Anatta is more than just a technique, method, or a belief. Though there are methods and techniques that point to Anatta, but one should not confuse the finger for the moon. In other words, one should not confuse the techninques or methods of pointing to Anatta as being Anatta. That is indeed a good example of clinging to views. This would be hanging on to a raft, a heavy raft.
What I am pointing to may be better explained by this excerpt below.
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."[2]
The Buddha never used the word for "bare attention" in his meditation instructions. That's because he realized that attention never occurs in a bare, pure, or unconditioned form. It's always colored by views and perceptions — the labels you tend to give to events — and by intentions: your choice of what to attend to and your purpose in being attentive.
So, there is that...
No big deal to me, I have nothing to prove to anyone.
Psi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/foodforawakening.html
Noah, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 3:53 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 3:53 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent PostsPål:
I guess my main problem is that I've gotten in touch with a Golden Dawn-ish group (the rosicrucian tradition, not the nazi party) and something screams for me to walk that path and jump on that train to enlightenment before it's too late. That tradition is all about the HGA and union with some higher self as well as the idea that at the core all religions have the same goal. I just need some Buddha figure to pop up and give approval and say "yes that will lead to the same enlightenment as what I taught 2500 years ago, your next ten years of practice will not be a waste if time". While Daniel actually recommended that kind of practice (Golden Dawn magick) in an earlier thread he seems to be all about nonduality/true self=anatta and here comes one of my main buddhist inspirations Thanissaro Bhikkhu and all over his book (buddhist romanticism) he says that ideas of monism (non-duality) is irrellevant to the dhamma. It's not just a view to let go of after having used it, like the raft, it's even straying from the path.
I recently asked Ron Crouch if my desire for further insight progress beyond where he had trained me was craving, or a legitimate goal. He said that I should seek further insight progress either way, because if it is craving, then I will learn more about myself and my craving in the process, and if it is a legitimate goal, it means a deeper part of my mind is trying to tell me something, and I will learn about that.
So either way, you can't lose. The most skillful thing might be to fabricate a sense of certainty, surrendering to the ideas of the Golden Dawn, which will ultimately expedite your journey.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 7:47 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 7:47 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsPål:
and here comes one of my main buddhist inspirations Thanissaro Bhikkhu and all over his book (buddhist romanticism) he says that ideas of monism (non-duality) is irrellevant to the dhamma. It's not just a view to let go of after having used it, like the raft, it's even straying from the path.
Except he is not saying that non duality is irrelevant, he is saying clinging tightly to any one view is not a good idea. You see this all the time with other things, to have some interest is one thing but when you cling to an idea such that something contrary to that idea causes angst, then such clinging is causing angst. The idea may or may not have some percentage of validity but who can know anyway, but the main issue is that clinging to anything tightly causes angst. The prob is not the idea itself, it is the clinging. So a car is not a bad thing by itself as a tool, but clinging to it with strong desire is a detriment to the path and causes angst. So also is clinging to other things like ideas. Fine to use them as tools but if you are emotionally invested in their validity, then what you want to work on is letting go of some of that emotional attachment.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 8:13 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/15/15 8:13 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsPsi:
Eva M Nie:
Psi:
Pål:
I can't see the big diffetence between "I'm not" and "I'm everything"
So, from that view there would be no difference between I'm not and I'm everything, because , perhaps, there never was an I to be or not to be anyways.
Psi
I find Thanissaro's interpretation very interesting. IMO it paints Gautama as the ultimate and original pragmatic Buddhist. He says don't hold dogmatically to ANY views, instead you are just going to use various views as tools that seem to help lead to lack of suffering. He is not saying we know for sure these views are entirely correct in the universe exactly, he only is saying they seem to work to get you across the river, after that, you cut them loose, let the raft go, which will be much easier if you aren't clinging with a death grip to it, as you are there and you don't need those crutches any more. If you cling to the raft (which IMO is heavy) then you may not be able to get out of the river even if you are close to shoreor you will be dragging the raft around with you on your back which will slow you down considerably. The views are tools that you should choose and make use of with control of thought, but if you just grab them by the tail and let the views control you and swing you around then this would not be right view according to Thanissaro's interpreation of Gautama (IMO).
-Eva
Pretty much all beliefs are views and as such are fabrications. There is a view, as in objectivity, yet no viewer.
Then there is the definition of view, as an opinion or a way of looking at something.
But, I do seem to be going a step further than Thanissaro on No Self. I am stating that Anatta is more than just a technique, method, or a belief.
Though there are methods and techniques that point to Anatta, but one should not confuse the finger for the moon. In other words, one should not confuse the techninques or methods of pointing to Anatta as being Anatta.
The Buddha never used the word for "bare attention" in his meditation instructions. That's because he realized that attention never occurs in a bare, pure, or unconditioned form. It's always colored by views and perceptions — the labels you tend to give to events — and by intentions: your choice of what to attend to and your purpose in being attentive.
Finally out of curiosity, I locked my mind onto a bright red bulbous looking thing and concentrated really hard to remember and with great effort I remembered the concept that it was a Kong dog toy. But it was much easier to just enjoy the show instead of trying to dig up all those concepts. I do often wonder if that is how it is for autistics. That was a very interesting experience of the world but at the same time, I would be hesitant to say that for sure I was operating with complete and pure bare awareness. So although I like the idea of practicing bare awareness as potentially being useful, I can't be sure that the purest form can be achieved with human consciousness. As for what Gautama said himself, I don't even know the phrases of his used to try to interpret it.
Again, I seem to be going a step further, and I would state that there is a state that is bare, pure, and unconditioned. There is a state before one gives labels to events. This can be done. And I would state that the Buddha did indeed realize the unconditioned.
-Eva
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 1:56 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 1:56 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsPål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 2:10 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 2:10 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Thanks for the approval
Well, an important thing for me is attaining suttaic stream entry so that I don't get reborn in hell if rebirth is real. This tradition seems to offer the possibility of transcending the ten fetters (which doesn't nessecarily equal erasing them of course). Some people in the group in question practice goenka vipassana too it seems. As stated in earlier threads I've started doing some of their practices already. We'll see where it leads to. Will have to fix some logistics before I can commit to it fully.
Well, an important thing for me is attaining suttaic stream entry so that I don't get reborn in hell if rebirth is real. This tradition seems to offer the possibility of transcending the ten fetters (which doesn't nessecarily equal erasing them of course). Some people in the group in question practice goenka vipassana too it seems. As stated in earlier threads I've started doing some of their practices already. We'll see where it leads to. Will have to fix some logistics before I can commit to it fully.
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:32 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:28 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Mark (12/15/15 9:30 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie)
"Western attempts to grasp Buddhist thought, missing the point, seems fair. But isn't the idea of "radical suspension of all conceptual frameworks" about Eastern thought missing the point or maybe just more Western missing of the point ?"
I agree with you, I think, and as you hinted in another recent thread: Western or Eastern thought – whatever one's native bias – it worth radicalizing, recognizing how it shapes one's approach and views. I guess my understanding of Buddha's teachings (his view about views, so to speak) is that they stand outside of any cultural context. Remember that Buddhism was erradicated in India (by invaders, about 1000 years ago), but to this day isn't much present there (except in a modern movement among lower castes, followed by only around 1% of the population). And that passage inThan-Geoff's book (perhaps in the section on Perennial Philosophy) where that pioneer Indian/Hindhu activist, the guy who invented the modern idea of Hindhuism, is said to have said, in effect, good riddance that they're free of Buddhism.
re: Mark (12/15/15 9:42 AM as a reply to Pål.)
"When I see non-duality on DhO I typically think of a change in experience. Then people can lay various concepts over that e.g. god, the absolute (the list is quite long it seems). ..."
Apropos, in a thread I just created,there's a rather strange simile for the Buddhist sphere of"viewpoints", so to speak, that I venture resembles the pragmatic milieu here in DhO.
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5807183
"Western attempts to grasp Buddhist thought, missing the point, seems fair. But isn't the idea of "radical suspension of all conceptual frameworks" about Eastern thought missing the point or maybe just more Western missing of the point ?"
I agree with you, I think, and as you hinted in another recent thread: Western or Eastern thought – whatever one's native bias – it worth radicalizing, recognizing how it shapes one's approach and views. I guess my understanding of Buddha's teachings (his view about views, so to speak) is that they stand outside of any cultural context. Remember that Buddhism was erradicated in India (by invaders, about 1000 years ago), but to this day isn't much present there (except in a modern movement among lower castes, followed by only around 1% of the population). And that passage inThan-Geoff's book (perhaps in the section on Perennial Philosophy) where that pioneer Indian/Hindhu activist, the guy who invented the modern idea of Hindhuism, is said to have said, in effect, good riddance that they're free of Buddhism.
re: Mark (12/15/15 9:42 AM as a reply to Pål.)
"When I see non-duality on DhO I typically think of a change in experience. Then people can lay various concepts over that e.g. god, the absolute (the list is quite long it seems). ..."
Apropos, in a thread I just created,there's a rather strange simile for the Buddhist sphere of"viewpoints", so to speak, that I venture resembles the pragmatic milieu here in DhO.
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5807183
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:40 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:34 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Pål (12/15/15 10:12 AM as a reply to Eva M Nie)
"…what
really disturbs me in both his "Buddhist Romanticism" and
his comments on the sutta is the grumpy tone of "only the True
Dhamma™ is a valid path to the Real Enlightenment™ and all other
mystical traditions don't get it and are just trying to become "One
with God" which is completely irrellevant"."
I can see how that impression comes across. It's perhaps part of of the polemic he's taking against what he sees as counterfeit dharma pretending (consciously or not) to be Theravadan Dhamma.
In the broader context, I wouldn't see Than-Geoff as arguing this as the single, supreme religion. Rather, given the nature of the goal – nibbanic awakening, to coin a phrase – he takes the Buddha's teaching as a proven, perhaps the only route to that specific goal.
Note that's a s/w specialized idea of "enlightenment". As you've investigated, there are many diverging views of, kinds of "enlightenment", which do seem to offer many people a way to greater "happiness", however they understand that. In fact, lots of people probably wouldn't consider a renunciate lifestyle, taking refuge in a viewless sort of mentality, a kind of purity of purpose and intense heedfulness around it, ending suffering, etc. – they might not consider that "happiness" at all.
The Buddha himself said, supposedly, that he has found this way (path) to attain that (nibbana), and it works; but also that it may not be for everyone; people can take it or leave it, in effect.
"…what
really disturbs me in both his "Buddhist Romanticism" and
his comments on the sutta is the grumpy tone of "only the True
Dhamma™ is a valid path to the Real Enlightenment™ and all other
mystical traditions don't get it and are just trying to become "One
with God" which is completely irrellevant"."
I can see how that impression comes across. It's perhaps part of of the polemic he's taking against what he sees as counterfeit dharma pretending (consciously or not) to be Theravadan Dhamma.
In the broader context, I wouldn't see Than-Geoff as arguing this as the single, supreme religion. Rather, given the nature of the goal – nibbanic awakening, to coin a phrase – he takes the Buddha's teaching as a proven, perhaps the only route to that specific goal.
Note that's a s/w specialized idea of "enlightenment". As you've investigated, there are many diverging views of, kinds of "enlightenment", which do seem to offer many people a way to greater "happiness", however they understand that. In fact, lots of people probably wouldn't consider a renunciate lifestyle, taking refuge in a viewless sort of mentality, a kind of purity of purpose and intense heedfulness around it, ending suffering, etc. – they might not consider that "happiness" at all.
The Buddha himself said, supposedly, that he has found this way (path) to attain that (nibbana), and it works; but also that it may not be for everyone; people can take it or leave it, in effect.
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:45 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:42 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Mark (12/15/15 1:09 PM as a reply to Pål)
"…Dependent origination seems insightful in regards to experience - it is always relative. The only exception I've heard of is some interpretations of nibbana where experience ceases."
Such interpretations I've run across in recent studies – in the writings of Paul Griffiths and others in the 1980s and 1990s – that it's an absolute black-out (the same group who came up with the notion of the "suttajhana-s"). Kenneth Folk also presented that argument about a year ago here in DhO, citing some Burmese sources too.
My suspicion is that that pertains to moments of what Daniel Ingram has compared to system or software "resets" in path experiences, which I think of as transition points (but haven't had the first hand experience to say for sure.)
I asked Than-Geoff about this at his last day-long at IMC (September). He replied that whatever paradoxical qualities there are, the presence of nibbana has awareness. IMO, he speaks from experience. We'll see, with luck.
"…Dependent origination seems insightful in regards to experience - it is always relative. The only exception I've heard of is some interpretations of nibbana where experience ceases."
Such interpretations I've run across in recent studies – in the writings of Paul Griffiths and others in the 1980s and 1990s – that it's an absolute black-out (the same group who came up with the notion of the "suttajhana-s"). Kenneth Folk also presented that argument about a year ago here in DhO, citing some Burmese sources too.
My suspicion is that that pertains to moments of what Daniel Ingram has compared to system or software "resets" in path experiences, which I think of as transition points (but haven't had the first hand experience to say for sure.)
I asked Than-Geoff about this at his last day-long at IMC (September). He replied that whatever paradoxical qualities there are, the presence of nibbana has awareness. IMO, he speaks from experience. We'll see, with luck.
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:47 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:47 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Psi (12/15/15 3:42 PM as a reply to Eva M Nie)
"And I would currently disagree when he says that the Buddha realized that attention never occurs in a bare, pure, or unconditioned form, or that it is always colored by views or perceptions. Again, I seem to be going a step further, and I would state that there is a state that is bare, pure, and unconditioned. There is a state before one gives labels to events. This can be done. And I would state that the Buddha did indeed realize the unconditioned."
I'm fairly certain that Than-Geoff directs that analysis of "bare" or "choiceless awareness" at the situation where the idea is used to teach beginners just learning meditation, with no where near the training to experience the unconditioned in the way you're referring to.
"And I would currently disagree when he says that the Buddha realized that attention never occurs in a bare, pure, or unconditioned form, or that it is always colored by views or perceptions. Again, I seem to be going a step further, and I would state that there is a state that is bare, pure, and unconditioned. There is a state before one gives labels to events. This can be done. And I would state that the Buddha did indeed realize the unconditioned."
I'm fairly certain that Than-Geoff directs that analysis of "bare" or "choiceless awareness" at the situation where the idea is used to teach beginners just learning meditation, with no where near the training to experience the unconditioned in the way you're referring to.
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:51 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 5:51 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
For those with a high tolerance for dense and subtle writing, I've posted a passage from Alexander Piatigorsky's book (mentioned above ).
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5807183
It relates to some of the ideas that have cropped up here, dichotomies in general, and, oddly, he presents a fascinating and elaborate simile that somehow reminded my of DhO in general.
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5807183
It relates to some of the ideas that have cropped up here, dichotomies in general, and, oddly, he presents a fascinating and elaborate simile that somehow reminded my of DhO in general.
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 2:54 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 2:54 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsChris J Macie:
re: Psi (12/15/15 3:42 PM as a reply to Eva M Nie)
"And I would currently disagree when he says that the Buddha realized that attention never occurs in a bare, pure, or unconditioned form, or that it is always colored by views or perceptions. Again, I seem to be going a step further, and I would state that there is a state that is bare, pure, and unconditioned. There is a state before one gives labels to events. This can be done. And I would state that the Buddha did indeed realize the unconditioned."
I'm fairly certain that Than-Geoff directs that analysis of "bare" or "choiceless awareness" at the situation where the idea is used to teach beginners just learning meditation, with no where near the training to experience the unconditioned in the way you're referring to.
"And I would currently disagree when he says that the Buddha realized that attention never occurs in a bare, pure, or unconditioned form, or that it is always colored by views or perceptions. Again, I seem to be going a step further, and I would state that there is a state that is bare, pure, and unconditioned. There is a state before one gives labels to events. This can be done. And I would state that the Buddha did indeed realize the unconditioned."
I'm fairly certain that Than-Geoff directs that analysis of "bare" or "choiceless awareness" at the situation where the idea is used to teach beginners just learning meditation, with no where near the training to experience the unconditioned in the way you're referring to.
Psi
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 4:00 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 4:00 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsEva M Nie:
[quote=What is the difference between Conclusions and clinging to a belief?
]
]
I would think that a Belief, could come from any idea about anything, it may or may not be based upon actual personal Investigation of phenomenon, and may include purely Intellectual Excercises. A Belief could be true, or it could be a Delusion.
Clinging is Clinging.
Then wouldn't believing there is no viewer also be a fabrication and so should not be clinged to?
Then there is the definition of view, as an opinion or a way of looking at something.
But, I do seem to be going a step further than Thanissaro on No Self. I am stating that Anatta is more than just a technique, method, or a belief.
Take for instance, a fingernail. A fingernail has the characteristic of Anatta.
Though there are methods and techniques that point to Anatta, but one should not confuse the finger for the moon. In other words, one should not confuse the techninques or methods of pointing to Anatta as being Anatta.
I don't know how you would know unless you experienced it but even then, hard to say if there are any filters that you are just not aware of that are still coloring you.
Again, I seem to be going a step further, and I would state that there is a state that is bare, pure, and unconditioned. There is a state before one gives labels to events. This can be done. And I would state that the Buddha did indeed realize the unconditioned.
I have experienced consciousness without labels but I don't think I could function in the Earth world like that, at least not the way I experienced it. Not sure if I could even process the spoken word when in such a state. I think I might just be more like an autistic if my day to day consciousness was like that. I could probably make it in some kind of hybrid state but IMO, that would probably be a more conditioned state (unless i don't understand the concept of unconditioned which is quite likely to be the case..)
-Eva
But, the mind is not always stilled, there are still daily agitations, unforseen circumstances, normal daily grind interactions, and all that. My biggest hindrance right now is maintaining a peaceful mind when forced into a lack of sleep, or when under the influence of physical exhaustion and fatigue. It is during these times that the old instinctual tendencies like to rear up. I am trying to train and seep he peaceful mind into those areas better, as I am able. Everything is grist for the mill.
And Eva, I am truly sorry if I do not explain things so well, or if I do have a quirky world view. If I have made any statements that are later shown to be false I am truly sorry, that is not my intention. My Investigation into Anatta has only come up with Anatta, each and every time. Some phenomenon do not lend well to Investigation, i.e Intention Thought Processes, and the Center of Awareness Sensation that allows us to move around three dimensionally. But, yes, even those sensations really are just sensations.
So, Eva, if I do have a view , it is probably wrong, it seems all views, as being filtered views are inherently wrong. And if this is so, then I would place a some questions before you. Like a brain teaser. You are pretty smart, so I expect you to prove to me the existence of a governing self behind all these questions and phenomeon...
Which sensation is a belief in a self based upon? If a self is based upon more than one sensation, who is receiving them, and where exactly is the sensation picked up by the I? If there are sensations, does there have to be a self involved in the process? For instance of you are receiving sensations and noticing them on your left foot, what about the stuff going on in the right foot at the same time? What about behind your ear? Who was doing the breathing when you read the very first line of this post, were you aware of that breath? Who was responsible for your breathing when you were asleep? If your breathing during sleep was due to involuntary systems, then is there a you , or self there at that time? When you are thinking about this, do the answers in thought form come to you fully formed, for the most part, or do you have to assemble the thoughts letter by letter to produce the language thought? If the thoughts come up faster than you can personally fabricate them, then who is actually doing the thinking, or is thinking due to an involuntary system?
Psi
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 4:03 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 4:03 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsPsi:
Eva M Nie:
[quote=What is the difference between Conclusions and clinging to a belief?
]
]
I would think that a Conclusion would come from Investigating pheomeon, Understanding what was Investigated, and Remebering what was actually Experienced.
I would think that a Belief, could come from any idea about anything, it may or may not be based upon actual personal Investigation of phenomenon, and may include purely Intellectual Excercises. A Belief could be true, or it could be a Delusion.
I would think that a Belief, could come from any idea about anything, it may or may not be based upon actual personal Investigation of phenomenon, and may include purely Intellectual Excercises. A Belief could be true, or it could be a Delusion.
Well, there could be False Conclusions, one does have to be wary of that.... Hmmmm....
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 9:22 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/15 9:22 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsPsi:
Psi:
Eva M Nie:
[quote=What is the difference between Conclusions and clinging to a belief?
]
]
I would think that a Conclusion would come from Investigating pheomeon, Understanding what was Investigated, and Remebering what was actually Experienced.
I would think that a Belief, could come from any idea about anything, it may or may not be based upon actual personal Investigation of phenomenon, and may include purely Intellectual Excercises. A Belief could be true, or it could be a Delusion.
I would think that a Belief, could come from any idea about anything, it may or may not be based upon actual personal Investigation of phenomenon, and may include purely Intellectual Excercises. A Belief could be true, or it could be a Delusion.
Well, there could be False Conclusions, one does have to be wary of that.... Hmmmm....
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 1:05 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 1:05 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsPsi:
Eva M Nie:
[quote=What is the difference between Conclusions and clinging to a belief?
]
]
I would think that a Belief, could come from any idea about anything, it may or may not be based upon actual personal Investigation of phenomenon, and may include purely Intellectual Excercises. A Belief could be true, or it could be a Delusion.
Clinging is Clinging.
Then wouldn't believing there is no viewer also be a fabrication and so should not be clinged to?
Then there is the definition of view, as an opinion or a way of looking at something.
But, I do seem to be going a step further than Thanissaro on No Self. I am stating that Anatta is more than just a technique, method, or a belief.
Take for instance, a fingernail. A fingernail has the characteristic of Anatta.
--A fingernail is an example of 'not self,' but does not prove 'no self.'
And Eva, I am truly sorry if I do not explain things so well, or if I do have a quirky world view. If I have made any statements that are later shown to be false I am truly sorry, that is not my intention.
-- Of course not! I know you are just describing your opinions as you know them, same as me. Sorry I guess I couldn't resist poking at what seemed to be a weak spot in your theory. But I am meaning to be super serious about it or anything.
My Investigation into Anatta has only come up with Anatta, each and every time.
--But if I were to investigate gluten, I'd probably always find gluten, and if I were to investigate hatred, I'd probably only ever find that. Cuz you tend to find what you look for and you tend to find what you already believe in. I do agree I can't see past a certain point in the development of conscious thoughts, to me that only means I don't know what is beyond that point, but it does not to me mean that for sure nothing exists beyond that point or that something specifically exists, to me it only means I don't know. To not be able to see and to not be able to find, to me does not mean 'does not exist.'
So, Eva, if I do have a view , it is probably wrong, it seems all views, as being filtered views are inherently wrong.
--Seems like you still don't understand what I am saying and I suspect Thanissaro is saying Gautama is saying. (or your method of word choice is perhaps not being fully understood by me). The thing is, I don't know if your view of no self is right or wrong as far as it being or not being the true nature of reality and self. I am not saying that view is or is not right. I do not know if the view itself is correct. What I am saying is that Gautama repeatedly cautioned against clinging to any one view, be it that self does not exist, that self does exist, etc. So if I were to argue against 'no self,' then I would be equally going against what Thanissaro is saying Gautama said, because to be against your view is still clinging to a view. Gautama seemed to think that clinging to ANY view before enlightenment was a detriment to enlightenment.
My personal suspicion is that the nature of reality is not simple and that we are bound to get it wrong at any pre enlightenment stages so better to just stay away from it and work instead on a more direct path to enlightenment and then maybe look at it again then if you feel like it (IF!). Sometimes my mind wanders at night when I sleep to all kinds of things, I think I've said before I used to experiment a lot with OBEs and whatnot and I can still fairly often have them or become lucid in dreams.
The one consistent thing I've found is that most of the stuff I encounter is so alien to my Earth consciousness that I am lucky if I can achieve a few percent understanding of them. Some kind of 'I' seems to understand a lot of stuff when I am out there, but the second I get back to regular Earth consciousness, the Earth consciousness 'I' can only grok a tiny tiny bit of it. That's a big reason why I suspect that any decent understanding via Earth consciousness of how 'it all' works may well be highly unlikely at best. Cuz out there, best I can tell, it's a giant pile of super weirdness! And I can only guess about how the 'I' that seems to be 'I' when out there knows so much more than the 'I' that is here, but certainly I can see how some might assume some kind of 'higher self' type deal as some of the the data I've seen does fit, but still, I think the data is too weak for me to be sure of any specific assumption other than stuff is just not at all like anything we can easily conceive of. Maybe the 'I' that I am out there is not much to do with this 'I' here and it's only that I can kind of piggy back ride in that consciousness and it seems like it's me when I am doing that? Or I am sure many would just assume I have some kind of really good imagination, which can't of course be ruled out but if so I have to be in complete awe as to the skill of imagination (and where the heck does imagination even come from anyway such that it can surpass the ability of the conscious mind so much?).
But look at quantum theory and then see how much of that you can understand and then go from there and let me know when you get it all figured out! ;-PP Personally I don't think I have much understanding of what 'I' is when here in Earth consciousness nor how it relates to other kinds of 'I' experienced when my mind travels at night. I also don't think I have much understanding of existence or it's nature. The one time I got closest felt like it was going to completely wash away my Earth consciousness and at that time long ago, it scared the hell out of me so much that I never ever tried it again. Just a tiny glimpse yieded the fear of complete obliteration. So not understanding the nature of 'I' and not understanding the nature of existence, it would seem rather unlikely I could have any sure feelings on if the 'I' truly exists or not. It's all just too freaky Friday for me! ;-P
-Eva
And if this is so, then I would place a some questions before you. Like a brain teaser. You are pretty smart, so I expect you to prove to me the existence of a governing self behind all these questions and phenomeon...
Which sensation is a belief in a self based upon? If a self is based upon more than one sensation, who is receiving them, and where exactly is the sensation picked up by the I? If there are sensations, does there have to be a self involved in the process? For instance of you are receiving sensations and noticing them on your left foot, what about the stuff going on in the right foot at the same time? What about behind your ear? Who was doing the breathing when you read the very first line of this post, were you aware of that breath? Who was responsible for your breathing when you were asleep? If your breathing during sleep was due to involuntary systems, then is there a you , or self there at that time? When you are thinking about this, do the answers in thought form come to you fully formed, for the most part, or do you have to assemble the thoughts letter by letter to produce the language thought? If the thoughts come up faster than you can personally fabricate them, then who is actually doing the thinking, or is thinking due to an involuntary system?
Psi
Philipp Puaschunder, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 5:05 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 5:05 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 2 Join Date: 12/10/15 Recent Posts
Frankly I don't even see where the problem is.
Nonduality is the statement that the universe and myself are not separate, that it ultimately makes no sense to try to find a line of demarcation where "self" ends and "all"/"other"/"the universe" begins.
Nonself is the statement that nothing that exists in reality is ultimately an entity (stable; eternal; sort of separate from experience, but somehow controlling it or utilizing it), that ultimately there is nothing real linking all the elementary events we tend to group and call "a person."
In my opinion, nonduality and nonself are related, but not identical, just as, for example, greed and unhappiness are related, but not identical: If I weren't unhappy, I wouldn't be greedy. If I weren't greedy, I wouldn't be unhappy. That doesn't mean greed and unhappiness are one and the same concept.
I feel what Thanissaro is saying here is just that it would be a misunderstanding of the Buddha's teaching to say, "There is no self. We tiny little people don't really exist. There is only the Universe. It gives us life and purpose according to its grand plan. If we submit to it, we will become happy and live forever, not as individuals, but as the One."
Nonduality is the statement that the universe and myself are not separate, that it ultimately makes no sense to try to find a line of demarcation where "self" ends and "all"/"other"/"the universe" begins.
Nonself is the statement that nothing that exists in reality is ultimately an entity (stable; eternal; sort of separate from experience, but somehow controlling it or utilizing it), that ultimately there is nothing real linking all the elementary events we tend to group and call "a person."
In my opinion, nonduality and nonself are related, but not identical, just as, for example, greed and unhappiness are related, but not identical: If I weren't unhappy, I wouldn't be greedy. If I weren't greedy, I wouldn't be unhappy. That doesn't mean greed and unhappiness are one and the same concept.
I feel what Thanissaro is saying here is just that it would be a misunderstanding of the Buddha's teaching to say, "There is no self. We tiny little people don't really exist. There is only the Universe. It gives us life and purpose according to its grand plan. If we submit to it, we will become happy and live forever, not as individuals, but as the One."
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 12:26 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 12:26 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsAnd if this is so, then I would place a some questions before you. Like a brain teaser. You are pretty smart, so I expect you to prove to me the existence of a governing self behind all these questions and phenomeon...
Which sensation is a belief in a self based upon? If a self is based upon more than one sensation, who is receiving them, and where exactly is the sensation picked up by the I?
If there are sensations, does there have to be a self involved in the process?
For instance of you are receiving sensations and noticing them on your left foot, what about the stuff going on in the right foot at the same time? What about behind your ear?
But I have had at least one mystical experience where consciousness/awareness was not like that, thought was quiet and I was aware of lots of things at once, not one by one. Then when I came back to Earth consciousness, during the transition between, it was like my Earth style mind was just struggling so hard to jump around fast and get pieces of it one by one and make sense of it enough that I could remember some aspects of it. So I don't think all awareness is confined to one by one perception. I think a lot of nightly travels, very likely for everyone, are like that, just that it's very hard for the Earth mind to process that info and remember it. Anyway, so I have memories of other kinds of awareness, assuming that was not all delusion too. ;-P It's a common theme in OBE circles that everyone probably has what we would consider super amazing experiences every night, the only hard part is remembering them. And if your world view runs contrary to any of it, IMO that makes for even more obstacles to remembering.
One of thing being hear did was point out some specific aspects of Earth conscious mind that I did not notice before, which allows me to notice differences in that and other experiences I've had. That made me a tiny bit better at realizing more specific differences, whereas before I could mostly only say something super vague like 'it was very different.'
Who was doing the breathing when you read the very first line of this post, were you aware of that breath? Who was responsible for your breathing when you were asleep? If your breathing during sleep was due to involuntary systems, then is there a you , or self there at that time?
-Eva
Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 3:13 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 3:13 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsEva M Nie:
I certainly cannot prove the existence of a governing self any more than I can disprove the existence of a governing self. I have never seen any proof by anyone else either way either. Maybe that is why Gautama said cling to neither view. ;-P
I could ask you the same about the sense of no self. ;-P
If there are sensations, does there have to be a self involved in the process?
For instance of you are receiving sensations and noticing them on your left foot, what about the stuff going on in the right foot at the same time? What about behind your ear?
But I have had at least one mystical experience where consciousness/awareness was not like that, thought was quiet and I was aware of lots of things at once, not one by one. Then when I came back to Earth consciousness, during the transition between, it was like my Earth style mind was just struggling so hard to jump around fast and get pieces of it one by one and make sense of it enough that I could remember some aspects of it. So I don't think all awareness is confined to one by one perception. I think a lot of nightly travels, very likely for everyone, are like that, just that it's very hard for the Earth mind to process that info and remember it. Anyway, so I have memories of other kinds of awareness, assuming that was not all delusion too. ;-P It's a common theme in OBE circles that everyone probably has what we would consider super amazing experiences every night, the only hard part is remembering them. And if your world view runs contrary to any of it, IMO that makes for even more obstacles to remembering.
One of thing being hear did was point out some specific aspects of Earth conscious mind that I did not notice before, which allows me to notice differences in that and other experiences I've had. That made me a tiny bit better at realizing more specific differences, whereas before I could mostly only say something super vague like 'it was very different.'
And who was driving your car when your conscious mind was thinking about plans for xmas dinner or some such and suddenly you find yourself pulling into your driveway? Who operates your feet when you are daydreaming as you walk in the forest? I have often wondered about those things and I don't know the answer. But just because I cannot see any cause or origin does not mean I know there is no origin though, it only means I cannot see any origin, nothing more and nothing less. As I said before, i do not fully understand the nature of existence, nor do I fully undersdtand the nature of sense of self, therefore I don't feel inclined to say I know about the sense of self as it related to existence either.
-Eva
But, really who knows? It is something to Investigate, for sure.
I like to think I am open minded enough to know that there are many possibilities, and Wise enough to know that I may still play the Fool. haha
Peace
Psi
Pål, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 3:58 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 3:58 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Wait, "the precence of nibbana has awareness". Wouldn't this kind of justify interpretations of the unconditioned as a kind of "limitless entity"? Maybe even the ugly G-word?
CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 7:55 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 7:54 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent PostsPål:
Wait, "the precence of nibbana has awareness". Wouldn't this kind of justify interpretations of the unconditioned as a kind of "limitless entity"? Maybe even the ugly G-word?
Wait, "the precence of nibbana has awareness". Wouldn't this kind of justify interpretations of the unconditioned as a kind of "limitless entity"? Maybe even the ugly G-word?
Sorry, that wasn't expressed very well. Not that nibbana is something that's aware, but that the experience of one in/after path/fruition moments is some sort of awareness -- not total blackout / unconsciousness.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 11:02 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 11:02 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsPsi:
Eva M Nie:
I certainly cannot prove the existence of a governing self any more than I can disprove the existence of a governing self. I have never seen any proof by anyone else either way either. Maybe that is why Gautama said cling to neither view. ;-P
If there are sensations, does there have to be a self involved in the process?
For instance of you are receiving sensations and noticing them on your left foot, what about the stuff going on in the right foot at the same time? What about behind your ear?
One of thing being hear did was point out some specific aspects of Earth conscious mind that I did not notice before, which allows me to notice differences in that and other experiences I've had. That made me a tiny bit better at realizing more specific differences, whereas before I could mostly only say something super vague like 'it was very different.'
And that consciousness would indeed be separate from the Earth conscious mind, there are no normal senses involved.
I have had some similar experiences such as you describe. It could be that there is more than we are normally aware of, or it could be just another type of sensation. The only explanation that I could come up with about 20 years ago was that it was the actual brain or mind, if you prefer, that was the direct sense organ.
In other words, the experience you are alluding to are merely what happens when the brain , or mind, is in direct contact with the Universe as if it were a Sense organ itself, albeit without the normal sense organs filtering and getting in the way, including the normal Self aspect, that too is dropped and not active. If you go back into your memory of the event you may remember that that is so..??
. I am thinking that what is happening is that an impersonal function is hammering away at the above phenomeon. Just as the Breath gets along fine without any input from the Self concept, so too, does alot of thinking and Mundane actions take place just fine without any input from the Self concept.
But, really who knows? It is something to Investigate, for sure.
But, really who knows? It is something to Investigate, for sure.
-Eva
Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 9:55 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 9:55 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsEva M Nie:
Which sensation is a belief in a self based upon? If a self is based upon more than one sensation, who is receiving them, and where exactly is the sensation picked up by the I?
During the Experience that I am trying to describe, there is neither the concept of the Self arising, nor is there the concept of No Self arising. There is no concepts arising, during this Experience one could then also say that there are No Views arising also.
So, in that sense there is neither Self nor Not Self, Views or Not Views.
So, during the Experience I am trying to describe, there would be neither a Self or a No Self arising, and neither would there be Views arising. But, afterwards, it could be reviewed and talked about, but , as to my current experience, one could not talk about it while actually during the experience. So, it seems that there is a Conventional Mode, the one we talk and communicate in, etc, and another Mode. The Mode the can not be named.... No, Not Voldemort Mode...
But, I really should Contemplate and Investigate this further before I say any more about this?!
Humbly,
Psi
Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 6:23 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 6:23 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsEva M Nie:
Yeah I was also thinking of the tree in the forest, but was thinking it was a koan and might have a specific meaning and answer (but just now I looked it up and apparently there is doubt about it being an offical koan and I could not find an answer either). Anyway, I digress.. You know one thing that also confuses me is when I am lost in thought and something else besides my conscious mind is driving the car, why does it sometimes go the wrong way out of habit? Like a few times it drove us into the post office parking lot, assumedly because I go there almost daily to drop packages from work. But thing thing is, what can know how to drive a car, stop at lights, use the brakes and gas, dodge other cars and even get in the middle turn lane, etc, but not know that the post office is now closed and we are going home now?!? This is an example of why I say I don't understand consciousness..
It is this very nature of Anatta that can be used to our advantage. Seeing that the mind and body does indeed work on its own without the conscious attention of the Me, or Self Consciousness involved, even in seemingly complex tasks, such as driving a car, routing the destination, etc. Hitting the shuttlecock across the net...
So too, in this way, the Mind can be trained to follow a Path Internally and Externally, For Instance the Four Supreme Efforts, The Brahma Viharas, Noble Eightfold Path, etc. Or whatever you train the Mind to do, this Anatta characteristic works both ways, i.e. The Mind could be inclined and even trained either intentionally or unintentionally to follow any Path, i.e stealing, lying, boozing, drugs, violence , anger, self loathing, worrying, wanting...
It is the understanding of this Anatta characteristic that can be used to our advantage, the training of the Mind to be continually led to Wholesome habits of thought and action, so that , at times, even when the Mind wanders off, it will Automatically come back to the Wholesome Habits. At the least it will be more amiable to accept the Wholesome Habits more readliy if the mind happens to stray.
I am pretty sure this is the same thing that you have been doing anyway, from what I have read in your posts, i.e. keeping this mental process, discarding that mental process, in an ever continuing fashion.
It is my understanding that this eventually becomes somewhat automatic, as a process. Like automatically driving to the Post Office. It can turn into kind of Impersonal automatic mental purification process. Now, to be sure, there are things that can be done to either slow up the process, such as reinforcing Unwholesome Habits, or speed up the process, such as reinforcing Wholesome Habits.
It is also coming to my understanding that once this process reaches a certain threshold, this is what is meant by Entering the Stream. i.e. the Mind kind of flows naturally along the Path towards the destination. That is just my inkling anyway.
Psi
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 10:43 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 10:43 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsPsi:
Very interesting to look at the above phenomenon you are describing, it has some interesting Insights. The first is the Anatta characteristic, the body and mind keep driving to the Post Office, out of habit.
It is this very nature of Anatta that can be used to our advantage. Seeing that the mind and body does indeed work on its own without the conscious attention of the Me, or Self Consciousness involved, even in seemingly complex tasks, such as driving a car, routing the destination, etc.
It is this very nature of Anatta that can be used to our advantage. Seeing that the mind and body does indeed work on its own without the conscious attention of the Me, or Self Consciousness involved, even in seemingly complex tasks, such as driving a car, routing the destination, etc.
Hitting the shuttlecock across the net...
So too, in this way, the Mind can be trained to follow a Path Internally and Externally, For Instance the Four Supreme Efforts, The Brahma Viharas, Noble Eightfold Path, etc. Or whatever you train the Mind to do, this Anatta characteristic works both ways, i.e. The Mind could be inclined and even trained either intentionally or unintentionally to follow any Path, i.e stealing, lying, boozing, drugs, violence , anger, self loathing, worrying, wanting...
It is the understanding of this Anatta characteristic that can be used to our advantage, the training of the Mind to be continually led to Wholesome habits of thought and action, so that , at times, even when the Mind wanders off, it will Automatically come back to the Wholesome Habits. At the least it will be more amiable to accept the Wholesome Habits more readliy if the mind happens to stray.
I am pretty sure this is the same thing that you have been doing anyway, from what I have read in your posts, i.e. keeping this mental process, discarding that mental process, in an ever continuing fashion.
It is my understanding that this eventually becomes somewhat automatic, as a process. Like automatically driving to the Post Office. It can turn into kind of Impersonal automatic mental purification process. Now, to be sure, there are things that can be done to either slow up the process, such as reinforcing Unwholesome Habits, or speed up the process, such as reinforcing Wholesome Habits.
It is also coming to my understanding that once this process reaches a certain threshold, this is what is meant by Entering the Stream. i.e. the Mind kind of flows naturally along the Path towards the destination. That is just my inkling anyway.
Psi
Pål, modified 8 Years ago at 12/27/15 5:11 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/27/15 5:11 PM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
This feels relevant:
http://youtu.be/cRIrlLQ3O98
Alan Watts seems to be talking about the relationship between Buddhism and Hinduism as if it was plainly obvious that they are at the core pretty much the same thing. I guess he and Thanissaro could be enlightened in different ways then..
http://youtu.be/cRIrlLQ3O98
Alan Watts seems to be talking about the relationship between Buddhism and Hinduism as if it was plainly obvious that they are at the core pretty much the same thing. I guess he and Thanissaro could be enlightened in different ways then..
CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/28/15 5:12 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/28/15 5:09 AM
RE: Thanissaro Against Non-duality
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent PostsPål:
...Alan Watts seems to be talking about the relationship between Buddhism and Hinduism as if it was plainly obvious that they are at the core pretty much the same thing...
Alan Watts, bless his heart, was first and foremost an entertainer, though a notch or so above Swami Beyondananda. (I used to listen to lots of his talks; driving into LA around midnight there used to be a radio show – on KPFK – just playing his tapes.)
What he "seems to be talking about" can be whatever you want to imagine in it, as he plainly says.
Notably memory from those talks was his story:
"Two Zen master meeting on the road as strangers need no introduction;
one thief recognizes another thief instantly."
...Alan Watts seems to be talking about the relationship between Buddhism and Hinduism as if it was plainly obvious that they are at the core pretty much the same thing...
Alan Watts, bless his heart, was first and foremost an entertainer, though a notch or so above Swami Beyondananda. (I used to listen to lots of his talks; driving into LA around midnight there used to be a radio show – on KPFK – just playing his tapes.)
What he "seems to be talking about" can be whatever you want to imagine in it, as he plainly says.
Notably memory from those talks was his story:
"Two Zen master meeting on the road as strangers need no introduction;
one thief recognizes another thief instantly."