I've had one topic that's been bugging me for a while now concerning how realistic it is to make real progress on the path of meditation without the benefit of going on a long-term retreat.

I have great concentration, mostly by virtue of my nature and occupation... as a professional artist I'm required to be "into" what I do for many hours every work day. I get what that non-self absorbed satori state is that athletes, musicians and other artists cultivate all the time. I don't have any heavy emotional hang-ups or concerns. My life is stable and secure. I have a wonderful family and many friends. People often comment on how peaceful and stable I am, even during intense times like watching my mother die of cancer. Sure I suffer like any other human, but I'm not doing meditation to solve any personal "issues".

I've been fascinated with meditation and the prospect of enlightenment for a couple decades now. I've read volumes of books and meditated in various ways off and on along the way. Mostly it's been hit and miss since the one thing I've never had is a real live personal teacher to keep me real about what it's all about. Daniel's book and more importantly his "it can be done if you don't fuck around" attitude really sing to me currently and has me motivated to buckle down and do my best.

The problem is, the best I can do right now is an hour everyday. Long retreats just aren't going to happen for years to come, unless my life turns really crazy. And from what a gather, long retreats are really where the rubber meets the road. Sure meditating for an hour is nice and has benefits, but long term I wonder what real progress I can make, realistically. I'm not looking for "nice"... I want breakthroughs and objective progression. Do people experience this outside of long retreats? Is it possible outside of luck and one's own karma without retreats?

Basically, in all my readings and research I've never come across someone saying "I'm a regular dude with a full time job and family and I got to these advanced stages by only meditating for an hour everyday without a teacher." Granted, I understand the need to keep your head in the game when life throws curve balls and to prepare for the possibility of long term retreats... but it's difficult to keep doubt at bay until then.

Hi Dave!

Firstly, I don't know the answer to your question! (sorry)

This is a question that I struggled with more so in the past than in the present (so less so in the present than in the past ;) )

From my own experience, I haven't been on any retreats and have been practicing for 5 months 1/2 hr in the morning 1/2 hr in the day. I mostly practice mindfulness of breathing, walking and bringing mindfulness to as many tasks as it occurs to me. And I practice with a group with the (facilitated) teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh (that has 3 teachers (facilitators, the idea being that one kind of acts as a conduit/embodiment/stream through which the teachings of Buddha flow). I am engaged to be married in the summer, have an apartment, a cat, a dog, an aquarium (with fish) and a crazy family (I think crazy is redundant haha).

Where am I now?

A bit less self absorbed// more aware of others
A bit less anxious (sometimes more so sometimes less so)
A lot more aware of this moment (compared to when I began)

I've had experiences of expanded awareness, a totality of stillness, serenity, joy. I've also had experiences of dullness, fatigue, fear, doubt... wait lets say DOUBT! All of those experiences are temporary... (I imagine any experience of enlightenment would be the same)

So objectively, I'm not sure that is progress and I haven't had any, "holy s**t I'm part of everything and stuff" experiences yet. But I'm not as worried about trying to get those either, so for me I would say that is progress. I'm more concerned about making sure I do 1 hour total each day. I am going to try and go on retreats, but at least initially I can't imagine being able to go on one longer than 1 week.

I seem to have the same intentions as you (as you outlined). I want the big E, Buddhahood, cessation of suffering, nirvana etc. I've found that very same desire has in turn caused me much suffering (in a good way! ) The facilitator in my group told me little things lead to big things, so maybe the best thing to do is just to focus on the first step She also said the future is made of the present, so why are you worrying about the future? Oh and also! Be compassionate to yourself! (that one I've found is very important!!! )

By the way, Brad Warner (head of the Dogen Sangha group... you can look him up), explicitly states that all you have to do is 1 hour of zazen (which is basically just sitting) each day, and just focus on that. I'm pretty sure he's the real deal (and he's at least cultivated the image of a regular dude... I can't say for sure as I haven't met him) from the books I've read. I personally, found zazen hard at the beginning... although maybe if I tried it now it would be different.

But I still gave anxiety about attaining enlightenment! Had a bit today and I'll probably have some tomorrow!

If you can practice with a group of people (with a few who have a decent amount of experience) and you like the vibes then I would suggest to do that. I think it's much harder (probably) to just go out on a limb by yourself.

So start practicing! Don't worry about the future! Focus on the now! Be Joyful! Be Light!

(hopefully I wasn't unhelpful)

May your practice be fruitful, may lotus blossom beneath your steps, may each breath bring you happiness and joy

The best suggestion I can come up with is to really develop your concentration talent for a while, to where you have a good amount of experience with jhana. Then I'd advise you to use the jhanas as a base for insight practice. Most of the excellent jhana books out there now, like Beyond Mindfulness In Plain English (by Bhante Gunaratana), Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond (by Ajahn Brahm), and Focused and Fearless (by Shaila Catherine) explain how to use jhana states as a powerful insight practice. In MCTB, it mentions how powerful jhana states are for insight practice, but I don't remember there being a thorough explanation of how to do that.

It does seem pretty contradictory for me to tell you to work on concentration states when you want insight practice, but I think that the method of using concentration states as the foundation for very powerful insight is optimal for people who don't have time for long periods of bare insight practice. The more insight work you can do per meditation, the less "Three steps forward and two steps back" your practice will be.

However, if anyone here has experience to contradict me, then don't shy away from it -- expert opinions and first hand accounts are, after all, what DhO is all about.

One uncontroversial point: if you can practice mindfulness as much as possible during your daily life off the cushion, this will help immensely. Just don't try to do noting practice, or enter any jhanas, while you're driving! When you're driving, it's VERY important to pay at least some attention to the content of your experience =P

I keep waiting for Trent to show up here again and write his book on getting stream entry in daily life with no retreat time and then much further.

It definitely can be done. Apparently, he did it just with relentless daily practice in daily life whenever any moment that didn't require paying too much attention to the content (i.e. not when driving, speaking, typing, doing work that involves much thought, listening, etc.).

I know of a few people who have managed to do it in daily life in various circumstances.

Thus, if they can, why can't you? No particular reason I know of.

It is just a question of seeing what you need to see about reality, and reality is showing those aspects again and again and again in all moments, so there is much to work with.

If you are poking around sites like this one and care at all about these things, it is possible and even likely that you crossed the A&P at some point, though not everyone who is poking around here has, this is true of the vast majority.

Lots of people will give all sorts of advice on concentration vs insight, on exactly what focus or practice, but in the end, just seeing reality really clearly again and again and again makes the difference.

Helpful?

Daniel

Thanks Daniel, you've given me some encouragement.

I've given my concerns a lot of thought and basically came up with the fact that there's really nothing else to do but practice... I can't abandon whatever progress and opinion of mediation I have obtained up to this point. Nothing left to do but slog forward with unending gumption and to hell with it all.... enlightenment or not. A very Zen attitude, I guess.

I would certainly like to hear more about this Trent fellow.

Hi Dave,

I can say with certainty that stream entry (and beyond) can be achieved without doing any retreats.

I have never been on retreat. I started practicing vipassana during Spring of 2008. I crossed the A&P in early July 2008. I had one hell of a dark night period between Summer and Winter of 2008. I made it to Equanimity in December of 2008, and got stream entry in early February 2009. That's when things REALLY picked up (a post for another day…)

You just have to practice well, and often, whenever and wherever you can. I used to spend all of my short breaks and lunch-breaks in an empty conference room, noting three characteristics and allowing myself to experience raw reality - no anesthesia. For me, it wasn't about pushing and striving. I had to make time to allow everything in my experience to be welcomed in and notice for what it was. If I can do it, you can do it.

Don't ever underestimate your potential. Also, don't underestimate the value of sharing your experiences in forums like this one. The wisdom of others who have charted the territory is invaluable to your practice. If you feel stuck, post about it. There are people who want nothing more than to help others make progress on the path, and they hang out in places like this.

YOU CAN DO IT. And don't you forget it.

~Jackson
"Lying is a science; truth a paradox."

I think a lot of practice can be done even while driving, talking, working, etc. If I am walking down the hallway at work I can be aware of all the sensations involved. For example I may be tense in my chest and abdomen, I may be able to feel the air against my ears as I walk or my pants on my leg. All these things will be changing as I walk.
Then, when a boss or co-worker approaches the feelings in my chest and abdomen and elsewhere may change based upon who he or she is. I can notice this, no problem.
Then, if we talk, it is easy I think to keep aware of any tension or pressure or stress or other sensations that arises while talking. Then, as the talk ends and I walk away I can note the changes in sensations at that point as well.
My point is, if one is doing something relatively complicated it is still very easy to focus on at least one sensation at the same time.

I follow a vajrayana tradition and it's all I know much about. We too place a huge emphasis on the value and even necessity of retreat, and long hours of meditation. However, my own teacher was a lay man, a family man, and had a career, though he was able to 'retire' into full time teaching at a comparatively early point. But he emphasized that enlightenment was possible for people in similar situations. He never encouraged any of his students to aim at retreats etc. He did emphasize in essence making this the most important thing in one's life. Actually, an hour each day of formal practice is nothing to sneeze at - you can really get something done - and in addition, there is what Daniel called "relentless daily practice in daily life" - using all the spare moments, and finding methods that fit them and allow you to make them part of your practice.

Another thing that happens is that doing such practice changes things - and one possibility is that it will help open up more practice/meditation opportunities for you. You may, probably will, become more accomplished at spotting opportunities.

You said, It's the 'only' and 'without' that don't fit here. They would only fit if you actually weren't willing to give more if it were possible - and you don't sound like that at all. If you do what you can, it will lead somewhere -

Personally one of my big questions has to do with the extent to which intense practice can do the trick. I find that there is also a slower maturing process that seems to be essential for me and for a lot of others. One of my questions is whether or not there are some things that just have to happen somewhat gradually - although each time a real stage boundary (using the term loosely) is crossed that seems to be instantaneous.

Susan

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention family stuff.

I'm married, almost four years now. No kids.

I've had a full-time job for the last 6 years, and have also been taking college courses part-time on top of that, for most of that time.

I didn't always get in more than an hour of sitting each day. Sometimes more, often less. I was/am mindful while walking, laying down, eating, driving, going to the toilet, etc. All stuff you can do. I woke up early on weekends while my wife slept in and got in a good three hours of practice sometimes, sitting and walking.

~Jackson
"Lying is a science; truth a paradox."

Thanks for all the responses, good people. You've given me new inspiration. I really enjoy reading about people's progression under normal, everyday circumstances. I think these voices need to be heard much more as they seem to be rare in the mainstream.

I love the Internet and DhO.

I'm only a pretty novice student (I'm still stuck in access concentration for the moment and am still at the point where I perceive that as being stuck), but I'd just like to say that I really empathize with your plight, since after reading what you've posted I think we're basically going through the same thing and, while I'm at a different stage in my life, our goals and outlook seem very similar.

Daniel mentioned in an earlier post that the simple fact that people like us are searching for answer in any place that'll potentially give us one could be an indication that we've already entered into the Arising and Passing Away stage (I haven't actually gotten to that point quite yet in MCTB, I'm holding off on that a bit until I actually accomplish something with jhana and samatha practice, that's the plan at least). Maybe that's so, maybe in my case it's not. If it is so in my case, I certainly don't remember it happening, I've always just felt fundamentally dissatisfied with all the standard avenues of obtaining some kind of lasting satisfaction and I would like to eventually know why that should be the case.

Anyhow, I wish you good luck, peace, and as much contentment as possible on your way to enlightenment.