Hello

From what I gather, the Buddha never really explained the 2nd path well. So I have a question about what it means when attachment and aversion is reduced, but not eliminated.

I had 3 major types of EQ experiences that were different from each other. The first was before 1st path and it was EQ towards all sensations. The second was EQ towards sensations and the attitudes of attachment and aversion themselves. This allowed me to see attachment and aversion as something silly, or stupid, or better yet, futile.

The 3rd type of EQ is what I'm experiencing now. At the moment, for me to practice EQ well, I have to reacall the first 2 types of EQ and then focus on the present type. The best way I can describe this is that I don't "fabricate". (I'm sorry if this conflicts with the other mening of fabrications in buddhism.) Even thinking of "doing nothing" is already fabricating. I withraw any investment in phenomena and just experience them. But speaking about it is already ruining it. I don't like these paradoxes, but it's the best way I can describe this.

Now, is it your experience that each of these types of EQ correspond to each of the stages before 1st, 2nd and 3rd path? And does that mean that it is reasonable to think that I'm in 2nd path and going for the 3rd?

Thank you.

Blue Jay,

         In my experience the equanimity that precedes stream entry (or 1st path) is different from what you are describing. It is the way that reality becomes experienced when certain ways of grasping onto or resisiting experience are seen through. The mind is naturally equanimous after having seen phenomena clearly, and so there is no reminding oneself what to do in the way of a technique or mantra to restore equanimity. It is not a "practice" as described, but the way that experience naturally is. It does not involve calling up previous ways of being equanimous, and reminding oneself. It is already there. The practice you are doing seems excellent and will no doubt deepen and lead to a naturally equanimous way of processing if you continue. 
         The first two types of equanimity you described were equanimity towards particular subsets of phenomena, and as such, are not the stage of equanimity which is as described above and not limited to certain subsets of phenomena. Because of this, and based on the small amount of information provided, I would guess you are somewhere before stream entry. But...that is only my opinion, based on your description. And there is lots about you I don't know, so...grain of salt.
        As for how equanimity was experienced, my deepest and most profound experience moving through the paths was pre-stream entry, but I think that was only because it was such a relief, and the changes became instilled in some way that made later experiences less distinct. 

Bill

It is great to have people who actualy know the dharma here.

Yes, you're right about most of what you said. So let me explain better my experience to see if we can agree on this.

Because my practice before 1st path was heavily influenced by the Goenka style of meditation, I didn't remember what the EQ insight stage was like before 1st path. And you're totaly right. The point is, at that stage, that you don't resist, or hold to the things you experience.

And I also agree with you that EQ comes from understanding reality, not by imposition. The way I proceed is when I am in the dark night I remember to be equanimous. When I try to be equanimous, the understanding that EQ is the best way of dealing with experience establishes the insight stage of EQ itself. So my practice when I am at EQ consists of being equanimous and let this way of seeing generate the understanding that establishes the insight stage of EQ. Does this make sense?

Regarding the second type of EQ, it's not that my experience was being equanimous just towards attachment and aversion themselves. It's that the EQ was deep enough to include these two aspects of experience. Leting them occur too, without holding them or resisting them.

So my experience is that
1-the first type of EQ is about not holding or resisting to any experience.
2-the second type is deeper than the previous and includes more clearly not holding or resisting to attachment or aversion themselves.
3-the 3rd type is even deeper than the previous and it culminates in not even adding anything to experience. Not to fabricate anything.
Does this correspond to the EQ stages before 1st, 2nd and 3rd path?

Thank you

Hi Blue Jay,

         It does not correspond to my experience moving through those paths, but I understand all of what you are saying. It seems like you are describing a deepening of your experience of your equanimity, rather than a new experience, so I could see why you might conclude it is being experienced new at different paths. It may be. I'm not sure. My experience was that equanimity preceding stream entry was very deep, and a way different experience than all that had become before. After stream entry, I cycled through the stages including equanimity quite a bit. The stream entry at the end of first path was very short lived for me. I remember I was having a conversation with Vince Horn about how much I didn't understand what the point of practice was and how difficult things seemed, then an hour or two later I was in deep equanimity and had a huge fruition that ushered in second path. It was comparatively much shorter in duration than that preceding stream entry, and it seemed to be less pronounced, but like I said before, this could have been because it was not new. As for the equanimity phase preceding third path, the only thing that sticks out to me is that, like the stages that came before during second path, the stage of equanimity seemed to be at the forefront and infusing my experience as I seemed to be moving through the other stages until finally, I seemed to be in an equanimity phase of equanimity that was very pronounced, and then another fruition, and third path. That's just my experience, my own abstraction. Certainly nothing definitive.

Bill

I can  certainly relate to the part you described about equanimity infusing the whole experience before 3rd path. I'm not sure that's where I'm at, but I can relate with your experience.

I've had this image before in my head. It is kind of childish, but it has helped me nevertheless. When I feel that I am about to attain a new path I naturaly picture myself in front of a gate. Like a heavanly gate. And the two times this happened before, there was a lot of light and it was like the day was bright. What I naturaly picture now is that I'm at a new gate, but it's still night time. There is something to be done before and I think it may envolve attaining at least 1st jhana. I'm working on it and it is going well.

Anyway, thank you. I will wait for other members input too.

Cool. No problem.