What is this space in my consciousness? - Discussion
Hi Jehanne,
Thanks for your post!
Goenka method does not involve noting. It uses Anapana to develop concentration & Vipassana to develop insight (practising with a base of morality too). The Vipassana practice is scanning the body part by part ,or sweeping, observing closely anicca (& later understanding Anatta and Dukkah) in all arising and passing sensations.
From me though I found practising Joseph Goldstein’s meditation methods for observing no self ‘turbo charged’ the understanding of anatta.
Good question. It's pleasant & peaceful. It seems to be a state absent of 'selfing'. Your words are spot on - elevated, but more equanimity than ecstasy. It feels like resting in pure consciousness.
It feels like it's both outside the body and inside the mind. I haven't noticed the dimensions of the space changing - I will investigate.
It doesn't spread out endlessly (I've had that state on rare occasions - this is different).
Wthin minutes it diminishes yet it is always there if I am clam and aware. It's like a subtlety I've only just realised has probably always been there.
I will try coming out slowly. (I tend to get up quickly from meditation & go straight to my day/duties).
Yes, we are on the same page! 
Totally agree - the more wisdom slowly matures the more I understand Dhamma is very hard to express accurately in words & seems to sound quite contradictory at times. Krishnamurti once said "as soon as the child understands the concept 'bird', she stops seeing the bird!" We're trying to reverse that process!
Funny just yesterday, shortly after posting this I was listening to Ramana Maharshi talking about the natural state and immediately wondered if that's what I have started experiencing. I think it is - I think you're absolutely right. This has only just 'clicked' in last 24 hours.
Thanks for engaging - it it is very helpful. Glad to hear someone else going through the same experience too!
Thanks for your post!
When you say you practise Goenka style, could you elaborate what you mean excatly, as I'm not that familiar with it. Is it noting? How frequently are you noting? Or is it more like sitting without trying to do anything in particular?
Goenka method does not involve noting. It uses Anapana to develop concentration & Vipassana to develop insight (practising with a base of morality too). The Vipassana practice is scanning the body part by part ,or sweeping, observing closely anicca (& later understanding Anatta and Dukkah) in all arising and passing sensations.
From me though I found practising Joseph Goldstein’s meditation methods for observing no self ‘turbo charged’ the understanding of anatta.
With this spaciousness are you experiencing also some additional flavour? Is it pleasant, or plain boring? Or are you feeling slightly elevated in the mood, but not in an extatic way, more like being in equanimity?
How are you experiencing the boundaries of that spaciousness? Are they limited to your body or outside? Or you can't say? Or does it feel like it is just going wider without end?
It doesn't spread out endlessly (I've had that state on rare occasions - this is different).
When you stop your session, how quickly does the spaciousness go away? Within seconds or minutes? If in seconds, you might want to come out of the session slowly. Like if you've had your eyes closed, open them first and feel out this spaciousness. Then move your eyes a little while feeling it. Then maybe wiggle your finger whilst still feeling it etc.
I will try coming out slowly. (I tend to get up quickly from meditation & go straight to my day/duties).
From what you write, it does sound a lot similar than what I experience. For me, this thing is present in all my sits and also in day to day life most of the time. It is like you say, that it goes away only when there is some severe selfing happening, then it seems to contract and is not wide open in mind space.
I have trouble conceptualising what space feels like. I get confused about describing stuff as being 2D or 3D. I don't know what is the friction there but something is bothering me about it! It resembles a lot what I experienced with regards to understanding the self. I had trouble understanding all the descriptions related to the sense of self. I've come to terms with that. There the solution was that I had actually seen past this thing that people call self, and because the experience/consept in me was so "fluffy" I could not really understand and connect with the description. I wonder if similar thing has happened with me with regards to space? This is what I'm trying to find out. For me the spaciousness comes with other qualities too,
and I've come to understand it as the natural state.
Thanks for engaging - it it is very helpful. Glad to hear someone else going through the same experience too!
Hi Kim,
No, no click. No SE. My self delusion took a big hit a few years ago during an A&P exp. I saw myself as only the 5 aggregates & realised I am not my thoughts & saw clearly the self is just a story in the mind. Then after a few weeks of release/joy I felt totally as normal - identifying as self again.
Also - doubt lingers, habits (rituals/patterns) - I'm attached to doing certain activities at certain times in certain order. No huge shift in insight or normal experience (just a slow gradual one over many years with small leaps).
Often in thinking I realise that my thoughts are not real & can often stop identifying with that story but the conditioning has not released enough for cessation.
Coincidentally, I started your 2 Part Formula as a regular practice just this week. Am looking forward to seeing what I see.
No, no click. No SE. My self delusion took a big hit a few years ago during an A&P exp. I saw myself as only the 5 aggregates & realised I am not my thoughts & saw clearly the self is just a story in the mind. Then after a few weeks of release/joy I felt totally as normal - identifying as self again.
Also - doubt lingers, habits (rituals/patterns) - I'm attached to doing certain activities at certain times in certain order. No huge shift in insight or normal experience (just a slow gradual one over many years with small leaps).
Often in thinking I realise that my thoughts are not real & can often stop identifying with that story but the conditioning has not released enough for cessation.
Coincidentally, I started your 2 Part Formula as a regular practice just this week. Am looking forward to seeing what I see.
U Ba Fin:
Hi Kim,
No, no click. No SE. My self delusion took a big hit a few years ago during an A&P exp. I saw myself as only the 5 aggregates & realised I am not my thoughts & saw clearly the self is just a story in the mind. Then after a few weeks of release/joy I felt totally as normal - identifying as self again.
Also - doubt lingers, habits (rituals/patterns) - I'm attached to doing certain activities at certain times in certain order. No huge shift in insight or normal experience (just a slow gradual one over many years with small leaps).
Often in thinking I realise that my thoughts are not real & can often stop identifying with that story but the conditioning has not released enough for cessation.
Coincidentally, I started your 2 Part Formula as a regular practice just this week. Am looking forward to seeing what I see.
No, no click. No SE. My self delusion took a big hit a few years ago during an A&P exp. I saw myself as only the 5 aggregates & realised I am not my thoughts & saw clearly the self is just a story in the mind. Then after a few weeks of release/joy I felt totally as normal - identifying as self again.
Also - doubt lingers, habits (rituals/patterns) - I'm attached to doing certain activities at certain times in certain order. No huge shift in insight or normal experience (just a slow gradual one over many years with small leaps).
Often in thinking I realise that my thoughts are not real & can often stop identifying with that story but the conditioning has not released enough for cessation.
Coincidentally, I started your 2 Part Formula as a regular practice just this week. Am looking forward to seeing what I see.
Many people take 2PF as a practice that they want to fit in among other practices of their daily routine. They do this, and that, and this and some 2PF. Well, ok, but it is important to understand that 2PF works best when done as a stand alone practice for the required period of time. When given full attention, it works best, and when it gets the job done it can and should be discarded, for it doesn't work for post-awakening practice.
17 years Goenka... Wow. Hats off!
Goenka teachings include vipashyana of mental phenomena, right? If that is correct, that practice is post-awakening practice, and very useful to a point, just like noting.
That is correct Kim, Goenka technique is Vipassana practice giving attention to bodily sensations. I would definitely go back to this technique after giving a fair trial to 2PF to see what that might result in.
SE is important but just the beginning. There is so much more to go.
I bet! However, one thing at a time!
I started a30 day trial of 2PF today. Following exactly as you describe in your Awake book. Will be really interesting to see what happens!
I had some pretty strong & unusual rupture arise during the very first session, followed by a ‘very sensitive nervous system’ feeling I often get after formal Goenka meditation retreats . Definitely not my normal experience of a meditation session.
I must admit I'm slightly sceptical but definitely open-minded and deeply curious!
Thanks for your help thus far!
Once I've experimented for a few weeks to get some contextual experience, I may well look into getting in contact with you RE Guidance to Awakening however, I want to try to understand the technique and see what questions might arise.
U Ba Fin:
@Chuck - I just reread Ingram’s description of first and second Jhana in MCTB and totally see what you mean. The description is very similar to what I articulated above. May well be a Jhana.
As concentration improves, it is as though the mind “sees” the first
jhana and grabs on to it. Having an idea of what you are looking for, i.e.
something enjoyable and steady, can be helpful for this. It has the five
primary factors of applied and sustained effort or attention, rapture,
happiness and concentration. Thus, it is great fun, feels good, but takes
consistent effort to sustain. The attention is focused narrowly, as though
one were looking at a small area of this page. This state can be quite a
relief from the pain and discomfort of sitting meditation and can
temporarily quiet the mind somewhat. As with all the concentration
states, it is generally quite easy to concentrate on something that is very
enjoyable. Thus, one’s concentration skills may improve rapidly and
easily after attaining the first jhana and tend to basically flounder until
one has attained the first jhana. Thus, attaining the first jhana is really,
really important.
jhana and grabs on to it. Having an idea of what you are looking for, i.e.
something enjoyable and steady, can be helpful for this. It has the five
primary factors of applied and sustained effort or attention, rapture,
happiness and concentration. Thus, it is great fun, feels good, but takes
consistent effort to sustain. The attention is focused narrowly, as though
one were looking at a small area of this page. This state can be quite a
relief from the pain and discomfort of sitting meditation and can
temporarily quiet the mind somewhat. As with all the concentration
states, it is generally quite easy to concentrate on something that is very
enjoyable. Thus, one’s concentration skills may improve rapidly and
easily after attaining the first jhana and tend to basically flounder until
one has attained the first jhana. Thus, attaining the first jhana is really,
really important.
The second Jhana chapter begins with this:
The second jhana is like the first, i.e. a seemingly solidified mind
state. With the dropping of almost all of applied and sustained effort the
rapture and happiness factors created by concentration can really
predominate. Thus, whereas the first jhana feels like something you
need to pay attention to, the second jhana has the quality of showing
itself to you. The focus of attention widens out somewhat, sort of like
looking straight ahead without focusing the eyes on anything specific.
Whereas mind-generated objects in the first jhana are stable, they will
move (e.g. spin, pulse, resonate, etc.) in the second jhana in ways that
correlate with the phase of the breath, moving slowly towards the top
and bottom of the breath and more quickly in the middle.
state. With the dropping of almost all of applied and sustained effort the
rapture and happiness factors created by concentration can really
predominate. Thus, whereas the first jhana feels like something you
need to pay attention to, the second jhana has the quality of showing
itself to you. The focus of attention widens out somewhat, sort of like
looking straight ahead without focusing the eyes on anything specific.
Whereas mind-generated objects in the first jhana are stable, they will
move (e.g. spin, pulse, resonate, etc.) in the second jhana in ways that
correlate with the phase of the breath, moving slowly towards the top
and bottom of the breath and more quickly in the middle.
Now third Jhana looks more like it:
In this state, the rapture drops away, and what is left is more cool
“bodily” bliss and equanimity with a lot of mindfulness of what is going
on.
.
.
The attention is now in wide focus, sort of like resting in the half of
space that is in front of one’s self.The third jhana is like the
counterpoint to the focus of attention of the second jhana. In the second
jhana, wherever we look we see clearly, whereas in the third jhana the
wide periphery of our attention is clear and the center of our attention is
murky. This can be extremely confusing until one gets used to it, and
trying to stay with one object in the center in the third jhana will cause
the meditator to miss what this state has to offer and teach. Moving from
the second to the third jhana is like going from focusing on the donut
hole to focusing on the outer edge of the donut, except that now you are
sitting in the center of the donut.
.
.
In its pure and simple spaciousness, profound clarity, balance and
contentment, the third jhana is even better than the second jhana.
“bodily” bliss and equanimity with a lot of mindfulness of what is going
on.
.
.
The attention is now in wide focus, sort of like resting in the half of
space that is in front of one’s self.The third jhana is like the
counterpoint to the focus of attention of the second jhana. In the second
jhana, wherever we look we see clearly, whereas in the third jhana the
wide periphery of our attention is clear and the center of our attention is
murky. This can be extremely confusing until one gets used to it, and
trying to stay with one object in the center in the third jhana will cause
the meditator to miss what this state has to offer and teach. Moving from
the second to the third jhana is like going from focusing on the donut
hole to focusing on the outer edge of the donut, except that now you are
sitting in the center of the donut.
.
.
In its pure and simple spaciousness, profound clarity, balance and
contentment, the third jhana is even better than the second jhana.
Oh look, the fourth sounds even more like what I have
As before, if the student wishes to go on to the fourth jhana, then
they just cultivate the third jhana and begin to pay attention to the fact
that even the bodily bliss is somewhat irritating or noisy. Eventually, the
mind will abandon the third jhana and shift into the fourth jhana, which
is the height of equanimity. This state is remarkable in its simple
spaciousness and acceptance. The extreme level of imperturbability
would be astounding if there was not such pronounced imperturbability.
This is by far the most restful of the first four jhanas.
The focus of attention is now largely panoramic and thus even
saying “focus” here is a bit problematic.
they just cultivate the third jhana and begin to pay attention to the fact
that even the bodily bliss is somewhat irritating or noisy. Eventually, the
mind will abandon the third jhana and shift into the fourth jhana, which
is the height of equanimity. This state is remarkable in its simple
spaciousness and acceptance. The extreme level of imperturbability
would be astounding if there was not such pronounced imperturbability.
This is by far the most restful of the first four jhanas.
The focus of attention is now largely panoramic and thus even
saying “focus” here is a bit problematic.
I stop with the quotes now, but I read through all the jahanas and they seem to resemble more and more what I'm having. However. I'm not doing concentration practises, as this state of mind tends to arise fairly quickly and with the guideline of "doing nothing" or "dropping all doing"so it is unclear to what extent these definition of Jhana should apply. Also, I meditate with my eyes open. So, it is a different animal than these Jhanas, although it has certainly been useful to read about these after a long time. I notice how much my practise has advanced since I can now relate to these desciptions instead of reading about them in awe!
Still, I'm not sure what I have. I'll keep meditaing and calling it a natural state :]