I've landed here due to Daniel's Book, which was unlike any other spiritual book I'd read before (much kudos to Daniel for writing it!). I wanted to check the possibility that I may have gone through the A&P ten years ago. I used to take psychadelic drugs weekly for a period of 3-4 months in fairly high doses (mainly ecstacy). Near the end of this period something shifted in the way I was feeling. I became more self conscious, felt anxiety for no reason and found it difficult to function in daily life. I discontinued my drug use shortly after as I figured it was to blame for the way I was feeling but it didn't make much difference - a dark cloud still hung over me. The last 10 years have been a nightmare.

There doesn't seem to be any particular moment that stands out as being the A&P event. It was a long time ago, though and unitive, joyous experiences were pretty much the norm when taking ecstacy!

I've being carrying out various spiritual pursuits for the past 8 years, trying to sort this out (mainly various forms of yoga, qi gong and a little bit of meditiation) but it's mostly been from books, I've had no formal teacher. More recently I've been practicing breath meditation daily and achieved some of the samatha jhanas (2nd or possibly 3rd), I focused on this as I knew a certain level of concentration is required to begin insight practices.

Is there any way to test for definite where I am on the path? I had always assumed that I was experiencing psychological problems caused by the drugs but thought I'd check this out.

Cheers,

John

Hi John, welcome to the DhO!



Well, there you have it, any and all of those are A&P :-) The actual "event" when it flips into dark night is pretty hard to catch, unless you know what you are looking for when you have it, and even then it takes a lot of concentration. I never did. Even after the A&P "event", you can still go back and relive the A&P experience many times --- for instance, by taking ecstasy again.

Since you're meditating, and had 10 years of dark night, I suppose that by now you want to go all the way. If that is the case, then go get stream entry! Things should improve --- at least they did for me (I had a similar story, but with LSD rather than ecstasy).

Have fun :-)
Bruno

Thanks Bruno. It's definitely my intention to get stream entry as soon as possible. I've started reading Practical Insight Meditation on Google Books, so I'll be noting till the cows come home! It could be difficult during the day, though, as I work at a computer and have to give my work a fair amount of thought.
Cheers,
John

Yeah, I know a relatively large number who crossed the A&P in similar circumstances, and if you ask around you will find it is quite common, much more common than most people realize, and it explains a lot of things we see in society.

Anyway, good luck in your practice, and think about retreats,

D

Thanks for the encouragement Daniel. Although I'd love to go on retreats and make some faster progress, it isn't really feasible at the minute. My fiance is rather narrow minded by her own admission and finds al this 'meditation stuff' rather strange. The idea of me trotting off for a week or even a weekend would not go down well and could put a bit of a strain on our relationship. She sleeps late at the weekends (usually till about 12), so I'm planning on getting a good few hours practice in before she wakes up.

I currently sit for 30 mins on weekday mornings but I'm planning on getting up earlier and increasing this to around 1 hour. I've also started to recline for a little while when I first wake up and before I go to bed and find showering and brushing my teeth etc a great time for noting practice, so hopefully this, coupled with some noting/choiceless awareness during the day can give my progress a boost.

Many Thanks,

John

I thought A&P took some effort to reach? If you can just take ecstasy or LSD and have an A&P event pretty much guaranteed, wouldn't most people who have took those be in some kind of dark night?

Well, if you aren't dark nighting, then you must somehow be living through some other process whose description matches dark night exactly. So I would say you are not at ground zero at all. Oh, and by the way, you will cross the A&P many times to come, so that is to be expected.


It depends on how you take it. If you just take the drug to party, then maybe it'll not cause any obvious change in that way. But if you take some psychedelic and investigate the experience just a little bit, then not only will the psychedelic experience be really powerful, it will also lead you into this direction. Oh, and btw, everyone I know who took LSD has gotten some kind of dark night sooner or later. Some have decided not to investigate, and it eventually passed (many months after). A close friend is still stuck in it after eight years, riding the nanas over and over again, and not certain if he wants to do something about it.


For myself I do know that LSD caused permanent perceptual changes even before I started meditating at all. In any case, you can see that your MDMA experience opened your eyes to possibilities, in which you might not believe otherwise?

I often have this feeling too.. that I haven't even crossed A&P and am just beginning barely.



Aren't you doomed to be in the Dark Night after A&P? How did it just pass? I have heard that LSD tends to unhinge oneself if taken too often, though.

Would taking LSD to hit A&P and then go into Dark Night be kind of like jumping headfirst into a situation you're not prepared for? Since you don't even have any of the meditative practice that you'd need to get you there sober.

True about making the experience more powerful though. Every meditative effort I put in resulted in my rolling more intensely.


For myself I do know that LSD caused permanent perceptual changes even before I started meditating at all. In any case, you can see that your MDMA experience opened your eyes to possibilities, in which you might not believe otherwise?

It certainly did. A moment sticks out when I was outside and I just opened my eyes after focusing on my breath for a few minutes. It was shockingly beautiful. Actually shocking.. my mind was reeling in its splendor. The mental state of my brain was also markedly different... all 'dark stuff' is rather obliterated while under its influence.

I'm sure LSD would bring about new possibilities. Haven't tried it yet. I'm n,ot sure I want to.. on the one hand it seems like an easy, not to mention fun, way to bend the mind beyond what it would normally, but on the other I feel any insights I get afterwards would be tainted by it, like I wouldn't know whether they're "authentic".

-------------

Yep I understand that it can be very painful too, and that for example you could feel terror and pain you didn't know was possible. So you're saying that if I'm in the Dark Night, I will be taught many of its lessons perhaps all at once, kicking me in the balls, and that that might be painful? =P. Will keep that under advisement. I have a feeling I would enjoy the trip but that it wouldn't be 'easy'.. and for some reason I have a hunch my mind will stray into a thought like "hmm I wonder what it's like for my arms to be cut off..." and that might manifest itself..

EDIT: One point of contention, though... if LSD teaches you what you need to learn, then why can't we all just take LSD non-stop for a month or two or so and become enlightened? That seems to instead lead to mental illness, like with Syd Barret for example..

------------

Having read all of this, I have a couple more things I would like to add.

I am of the opinion that psychedelics have nothing, I would like to stress that again, nothing to do with insight. Any and all stages of insight hit through the use of psychedelics will have to do with what the mind does while under the effect of the drug rather than the natural effect of the drug (as Bruno points out). This means that taking drugs will not automatically make one hit a stage of insight (regardless of type of drug, dose, or frequency of use). Also, I have never heard of anyone making it farther than the Dark Night through the use of psychedelics, I certainly have not ever heard of anyone attaining to stream entry or beyond.

The problem with hitting A&P through drugs is that the A&P is more or less valueless and in actual fact more of a barrier to practice than much else (as it is so easy to fixate on it, or to want it to return), it is a glimpse of something that is far too easily misunderstood (easily resulting in the mistaken belief that the progress of insight is about states rather than the momentary nature of reality regardless of the state currently being experienced; equally it is easy to fixate on the pleasant qualities of the A&P and believe those to be somehow superior or preferable to others, which makes the Dark Night all the more painful).

I have heard it said that psychedelics have various positive uses but I would not include meditative attainments as one of those, there simply is no proof for this. I still find drugs interesting (even if I do not anymore have much of an inclination to experiment with them) but compared to meditation and its fruits, drugs are in my opinion rather shallow.

There is also the point which was raised above that someone who would come across one of the insight stages through drug use would not know what to do next, given that they have not developed any appreciation or understanding of what it is that they are going through or the intuition to know what it is that they have to do now. I think that this is the most important point and a very big warning to those who are looking for a shortcut.

All in all, if you are into insight, meditate, practice, there is no other way around it.

Yeah, the psychedelic experience seems almost like the antithesis of vipassana to me. You shouldn't take a psychedelic in an attempt to further your meditation practice. It's most certainly its own beast. Honestly, I'd be much more interested to hear what happens when an AF person takes a psychedelic.

What does AF stand for?

I've heard a few stories about Buddhist monks taking psychedelics. Take them with a grain of salt.

One group took LSD. The trip became too intense, so it had to be aborted.

One monk took X. He said it took him 20-30 years of studying Zen to reach that level of clarity, but he's glad he did it the long way. He said it might be a good experience to show meditators what can be possible, but that it might be easy to get caught up in it.

Then I heard a story of one highly disciplined monk who could take LSD and not have any effects from it. Not sure what to think of that..

@Pavel: Your points resonate with me. I figured that any insight would be from the mind reacting to the drug, not the drug itself. And I also feel that taking psychedelics to further one's meditation is probably the wrong way to go about it.. while it is interesting to meditate in altered states of mind, I can recognize that being sober is definitely important to get serious work done.

Yes, that's exactly what happened to me. I had one year of horrid depression, the after effects of which linger to this day (11 months after said depression was gone). Although I didn't take LSD to hit A&P, it just happened of its own accord.

I'm curious about this. Do you simply mean after stream entry when working towards 2nd Path, 3rd Path etc? Or is it possible that I could regress and have to cross the A&P again?



I was wondering about this myself. Since I've taken a shortcut, I haven't built up the faculties of mind, the speed, the precision etc that would be endowed if I had crossed the A & P by meditative means. Does this mean that I will have to learn the teachings of the first three nanas (again)? Does it also mean that it will take a while to get to A&P proper before I can progress out of the Dark Night?

Cheers,

John

Not necessarily. What I meant is that the A&P has no real meaning in and of itself, it is a transitory state that can cause more havoc than good, even if it feels so damn nice (in a way it is as hard to get some equanimity going in the face of the A&P as it is in the face of the Dark Night, especially in everyday life, except that the A&P moves on of its own accord whereas the Dark Night has a habit of sticking).

You are where you are and the only way to slide back (as far as I know and I may be wrong in this) is not to practice or to practice badly - there may be some backsliding here and there (such as with early equanimity and the Dark Night). When I stopped in the past I just got stuck in the Dark Night. Before I started practicing I went through the A&P at least 2 times, I suspect 3, the Dark Nights were always unpleasant and confusing and affected pretty much all of my life in that period.

If anything, if you have made it beyond the A&P, it should take you much less time to get proficient at using your chosen technique so there is nothing wrong with where you are at.

All the best.

Ah ok, so crossing the A & P in and of itself is pretty pointless unless you can follow it up with meditative practice to move past the dark night.

I've been practicing diligently this week and I must say that things do seem to be moving quite quickly. I may start another thread about my experiences.

Many thanks for everyone's input,

John

Hi Guys. I check in on this board from time to time, but this is actually my first comment. The discussion seemed so interesting a relevant to my own experience that I thought I should chime in!

First, a little background. In the early 2000s I was heavily entrenched in the NYC rave scene. For several years I took all manner of psychedelics on average of twice a month. It was ecstasy that was my mine problem child however. If I had to guess I'd say I've taken well over 100 hits in my life. I had some of the most amazing experiences in my life on the dance floor, under the influence of drugs.

But following this boom came a huge crash. I spent years afterwards dealing with anxiety and depression. I lost all my self-esteem and felt very numb to the world. It was probably the darkest time in my life.

I've actually written a more detailed recount here on my blog TechnoYogi if you want more specifics.

What doesn't seem to have come up in the conversation thus far is the devastating effect that these drugs, especially ecstasy have on your mind and body. You literally drain your brain of serotonin while simultaneously burning out your receptors, leaving you numbed and depressed. If these changes aren't properly addressed they can become conditioned behavior and very difficult to change. The effects would certainly seem to mimic a dark night experience, and be very challenging to come out of. Also, having experienced something absolutely wonderful, but with no grounding in insight, it is very easy to become attached to those times. I spent years thinking that "the best was behind me..." and even just that can be totally disheartening.

This was very much my experience and it was only when I started a daily yoga and meditation practice that I was able to see the conditioned patterns more clearly, and begin to heal.

Having gone down the path of drugs as well as the path of meditation, I will concede that many drug experiences can mimic aspects of deep states like the A&P and even the dark night, but personally I don't think they are the same thing. For example, my first taste of ego death was on LSD. I spent several minutes without an internal dialogue or sense of self, and was totally merged with my experience. But when I came back I was left just as when I started.

I think that Swami Satchitananda uses a perfect simile when he compares experiencing "enlightenment" on drugs to being tossed in the back of a car blindfolded, driven to the most beautiful place on earth and let to walk around for a while, and then blindfolded again and driven back to where you started. You might see and experience some amazing things, but ultimately you have no idea how you got there, where you really are, or how to get back where you started. You also miss all the knowledge gained from the journey there. Completely different than actually walking the path yourself.

A couple years ago I experienced a meditation induced A&P and it was far better than even the best of my drug experiences. And even more than the just the utter bliss, I felt completely clear and connected. Unlike being on ecstasy, where it often feels like you're being swept away.

When I came down a few days later I went through my dark night, which went on for several months or maybe even a year. (One can never really be sure...) But being grounded in insight made it much easier to gain some perspective and get back on my feet.

This is already really long so I'll wrap it up. But I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this.

Also to John, keep the faith. You are in the best possibly path to try and gain some peace after this challenging period in you life!

Thanks for sharing, Rob! I read the full account on your blog, very interesting.. you just feel so in tune with everyone and everything while rolling, it's hard to see the negative aspects of it in the moment. My thoughts are more along the lines of "wow everything is great.. everyone having a good time! no one is hitting on each other in a crude predatory way (which is why I definitely feel bars and clubs are more 'evil' places, but not trance parties!)"

of course I have seen negative aspects surrounding it: the effort to get to a rave, get the drugs in, anxiety of taking them and waiting for it to start, the sadness as it starts to fade, then people being "normal" again after (like not in a constant state of loving everything but being quite negative). One guy had been taking pills for 10 years.. he took 12 over the course of 2 days and they weren't doing anything. he was just sitting and grinding his teeth, looking very sad. I said "what if you took a break?" he said "I took a break for 2 weeks. they never work for me, breaks suck." I didn't voice my opinion of "i meant like 6 months man.. if 2 weeks is a lot for you, dnno what to say". then there's people getting into other more addicting drugs.

writing it down it seems like a lot of work to go through to get those fleeting few hours of feeling wonderful. but how wonderful you feel!


I've tried to look into negative effects on the body and brain of E. Seems to be no consensus of damage it does, except it is understood that if you take 3-4 pills 3-4 nights a week you will get pretty F-ed up pretty quick. But I definitely agree you can get really easily attached to the experiences. I so far generally think it's good I've tried it.. but I also often have the thought "I'm glad I didn't start doing this 5 years ago.." (just tried it this year).



Yeah I definitely appreciate the state of being sober, of being extremely sober, thanks to meditation. I've been on the edge of deciding to drink or smoke one night and not, then meditating, then thinking "Ah Im glad i decided to stay sober.. this feels great." i got into some nice pleasant body feelings when focusing on my breath and it was very enjoyable!

I'm kind of in a struggle. I go from thinking "no more mind altering substances at all..." (no alcohol either) to "might as well do alcohol, weed, lsd, X, shrooms, can be fun!" I can't seem to get a middle ground, since if I think "well it's ok to drink once in a while..." cause then I think "well if it's ok to drink, weed is ok too. well if weed is ok, E once in a while can't be bad... hey then might as well try acid too, once in a while.." and from there it is easy to just take it often since it feels so good.

Dnno what I'll end up doing. but i will keep meditating, that's for sure.

Awesome analogy by the way, I'll keep that in mind. I did notice that being fundamentally different between drugs and meditating - no matter how awesome the drug-induced states are, they pass, leaving you same after as you were before. not sure how to reconcile that with the claims of permanently changed perception by LSD, though.

Thanks for responding John.

Regarding the negative effects, there certainly is a lot of conflicting information. But it seems to be agreed on that it will deplete serotonin over time, and possibly weaken the receptors. This is why you feel depressed afterwards and why you can build up such a tolerance! I think the most I ever took was 6 in one night, and it just left me tweaking out. And of course taking doses for days on end is a surefire way to permanently damage your brain. I'm thankful to this day that on all but one occasion I always waited at least a week between times. I'm sure it's the only reason that I'm still able to function today.

Have you tried supplementing with 5-HTP? It is a precursor to serotonin and might help to elevate your mood, to help you get back on track.

I've actually taken E a couple times since I've started meditating just to see how it might be different. The funny thing is that the physical effects are the same - the rush, the peak, the comedown, etc. What I noticed was really interesting though; I could feel these effects, and even the 'euphoria.' Even though I could feel all that, and even danced a whole lot, it never took me over. It's like the illusion has been shattered and I can see that they are just transient now. It was almost like there's a space between me and the experience, and I could see that it was just the drugs, and not something deeper. I was also a lot more mindful during the aftereffects and able to deal with the depression.

As for you "coming clean," I'd recommend just working at removing toxic elements at whatever pace feels appropriate for you. It's not gonna help your progress to be attached to some ideal monk-like state if you're not ready for it yet. Always remember that this is the middle way, and not to hold it too tightly. That's my take on it at least...

Yep that is why you can't take it night after night and keep rolling as well, no more serotonin. but it replenishes.. it's questionable whether the "normal level" of serotonin is lower if you take E a lot, or if it can go back to regular pre-X levels after you stop taking it. I think destroying the brain stuff is overhyped.. but I can't tell for sure. Probably the more grievous effect would be from becoming used to the rolling state. And yeah I usually take 5HTP after, and have only had a bad hangover one. But hey this thread isn't about how best to take E so I'll stop here.


Hmm interesting.. I haven't focused on that aspect of the experience. I think I wanted to solidify that state so I did some concentration meditation while rolling and wee it really did intensify it. But yeah if there is a next time I want to try noting and see what happens.


Yeah that is probably the best. not only with drugs but I've read experiences of people trying to go vegan that just cut out all the 'bad' stuff, maintain for weeks, even months, then just snapping back the other way, eating tons of junk food (cause they craved it so much after months of denying themselves it). I think you're right about the middle way. I have to be compassionate to myself, too..

Hi Rob,

Thanks for posting. I checked out your blog post and really enjoyed reading it. It's a pretty close reflection of my own experiences with drugs. I was also 17 when I first started and I look back now and think that it's a dangerous age to be getting into that type of scene - you're enthusiastic, eager for new experiences and think you know it all. It's a recipe for getting sucked in.

The stories about suffering reminded me of a moment I had when I was on e's. One time after taking a couple of pills I was heading along a road near my home when colours became unusually pronounced. I remember looking at the red brick buldings and the grippy tarmac on the road and they were standing out as being so red, redder than they'd ever looked before. The sky in contrast looked so serene, like a haven and I remember thinking that we were living in hell and the only hope was to turn towards the sky, which reminded me of God. Suffering seemed so real and obvious to me at that time, there was no escaping it while we were on this earth. Feeling like we were living in hell was a little unsettling but at the same time it I felt a deep sense of joy as there seemed to be hope. It was an amazing experience and I can still remember it vividly today.

The type of pill we took that day had a shell imprint on it and I used to always bang on about how good they were. It's funny though because my mate didn't think they were very good at all. I guess he didn't have the same experience I had!

Heh while under the influence I thought about the whole collection of people going for stream entry, arahatship, enlightenment, whichever.. it seemed like a gaggle of confused beings grasping in the wrong directions, no offense to anyone here =). i remember the Buddhist parable(?) of the finger pointing at the moon - don't investigate the finger, just turn to look at the moon! I felt the same about all the words we exchange.. i didn't really know what the moon was, but i felt it was close to what i was feeling. but then of course one sobers up.


Yeup, set and setting, set and setting..

Yeah, these experiences can seem so real at the time, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd considered giving up noting practice and switching to Zen lol

I had the (mis)fortune of crossing the A&P for the first time after taking MDMA, dark nighting for some years after. I wondered for a while (after having found and read MCTB ) whether I was simply depressed and pathetic for not being able to find a way to get out of it, or whether what I was experiencing was this dark night that I read about. I gave insight meditation a shot and soon found out an answer, which is a good thing, given that the dark night sucks like nothing else if there is no explanation at hand for what it is, as well as the knowledge that there is a way of working with it.

There are two things in particular that happened after that first A&P, one was an experiential, or a perceptual change - things simply did not seem the same way anymore, there was some difference in how reality was perceived that I could not quite put my finger on, or explain. I knew that something changed and I could not quite remember how it was to be the way I was before. Also, the spiritual search, the longing, the insight disease, kicked in and with force.

All the best,

Pavel

Hi Pavel,

Your post really echoes my experiences! Something seemed to change rather suddenly, but it seemed to come out of nowhere and I couldn't really explain what it was or why it happened. I initially attributed it to a distinctly bad come-down but it continued way longer than normal and was preceptually different.

Even now I still have some doubts that I've crossed the A & P and wouldn't be too surprised if I was at ground zero and ended up experiencing the first few Nanas and then crossing the A & P (again)! But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter where I am on the path as I have an almost instinctual urge to pursue it regardless. I'll work on the assumption that I'm in the Dark Knight and I'm sure things will become clear in time.

Many Thanks,

John

Heh, very interesting... my spiritual search starting did pretty much coincide with me taking MDMA for the first time, although I assumed until now it was a coincidence (I just happened to start meditating a few days before taking it). I do remember while rolling that first time, even though I only meditated a handful of times, "Hmm this feeling, this perception must be what meditation is trying to reach..."

About a month afterwards I noticed my perception of the world was different. I just seemed to notice things more. Things were clearer/crisper, etc. I assumed it was my daily meditating that helped me do that, not the MDMA< though..

Anyway the reason I'm posting at all is cause of your last sentence, "Also, the spiritual search, the longing, the insight disease, kicked in and with force." I definitely started reading a ton about Buddhism, looking at sutras, looking for forums, etc. Definitely was inspired to meditate..

Really great info that puts stuff into perspective:

Jack Kornfield on psychedelics:
http://www.lycaeum.org/~sputnik/Misc/buddhism.html

Seung Sahn:
http://www.lycaeum.org/~sputnik/Drugs/LSD/LSD.Buddha.html