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Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/24/19 8:33 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Anna L 3/25/19 4:15 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/25/19 4:44 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/25/19 5:53 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/25/19 6:11 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Anna L 3/25/19 8:36 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Anna L 3/25/19 8:34 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/26/19 9:36 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Anna L 3/26/19 5:28 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/25/19 5:00 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 3/25/19 7:25 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/26/19 6:04 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 3/26/19 2:52 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 3/25/19 7:21 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Anna L 3/25/19 8:35 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/27/19 3:08 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 3/27/19 4:43 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 3/27/19 5:34 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/28/19 6:38 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 3/28/19 6:48 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/28/19 1:05 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 3/28/19 1:29 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/28/19 6:55 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Anna L 3/29/19 4:41 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/29/19 11:10 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/29/19 11:58 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 3/29/19 12:35 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/29/19 1:11 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/29/19 1:30 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 3/29/19 4:15 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 3/29/19 4:31 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/30/19 7:21 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 3/30/19 7:35 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/30/19 7:56 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/1/19 9:15 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 4/2/19 5:41 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/2/19 9:30 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Raving Rhubarb 4/2/19 9:31 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/2/19 4:58 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/3/19 1:52 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 4/3/19 2:40 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/3/19 3:16 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 4/4/19 12:31 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/4/19 1:29 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/5/19 7:14 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/6/19 6:12 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/8/19 7:02 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/9/19 8:05 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/5/19 5:56 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Chris Marti 4/6/19 7:53 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/5/19 5:54 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/3/19 4:17 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/5/19 5:55 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/3/19 2:54 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/5/19 6:03 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 3/30/19 9:11 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/1/19 8:47 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/2/19 6:06 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/7/19 11:32 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/8/19 7:40 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/24/19 4:00 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/24/19 4:07 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/24/19 5:33 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Stickman2 4/25/19 8:28 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/26/19 11:35 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/26/19 12:27 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 4/24/19 5:30 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 3/29/19 3:59 PM
RE: Circadian rhythms Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/28/19 8:44 AM
RE: Circadian rhythms terry 3/29/19 3:44 PM
Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/24/19 8:33 PM
Lots of processes in the body and mind have circadian cycles.
Does this have a bearing on "cycling" ?
Does it have a bearing on the timing of breakthroughs in the progress of insight ?

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 4:15 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
I am interested in this question too, as have noticed insight cycles syncing up with biological cycles and rhythms. I am not a doctor, but according to google, we have 4 known types of biological rhythyms:
  • circadian rhythms: the 24-hour cycle that includes physiological and behavioral rhythms like sleeping
  • diurnal rhythms: the circadian rhythm synced with day and night
  • ultradian rhythms: biological rhythms with a shorter period and higher frequency than circadian rhythms
  • infradian rhythms: biological rhythms that last more than 24 hours, such as a menstrual cycle
It seems that if you look carefully enough, you can find (insight?) cycles in everything in nature, including us. Perhaps when we notice fractals of cycles we are noticing these very cycles? 

As for how the timing works ... I am not sure! Great question though. 

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 4:44 PM as a reply to Anna L.
Interesting thoughts! I have been pondering the relation between stages and pms as well as between stages and sleep deprivation. The idea of everything having their own insight cycles makes sense to me. I believe it may explain a lot.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 5:00 PM as a reply to Anna L.
Hormones like noradrenaline, cortisol, testosterone, aoestrogen, melatonin; neurotransmitters like endocannabinoids, serotonin.

The chemicals of bliss, attention, desire and suffering all have daily rhythms.


RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 5:53 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
 There are different chronotypes, which means some people are early risers, some are late. So not everybody's rhythm is in sync. This seems to be a genetic predisposition. This means that in the typical 9-5 work schedule, some people will have had enough sleep and some people won't.
  I expect this also means the same for retreats with early morning starts, and maybe some people don't get enough REM sleep, which could have implications for psychosis and dark night etc.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 6:11 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Now that would be an interesting research topic.

I guess it also depends on the quality of the meditation sessions. I would guess that at some stages and in some states the meditation fulfills more of one’s need for rest than in others.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 7:21 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Lots of processes in the body and mind have circadian cycles.
Does this have a bearing on "cycling" ?
Does it have a bearing on the timing of breakthroughs in the progress of insight ?


(the following story is generally attributed to bankei)



Eat When You're Hungry


Someone asked a Zen Master, "How do you practice Zen?"

The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

"Isn't that what everyone does anyway?"

The master replied, "No, No. Most people entertains a thousand desires when they eat and scheme over a thousand plans when they sleep."

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 7:25 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Hormones like noradrenaline, cortisol, testosterone, aoestrogen, melatonin; neurotransmitters like endocannabinoids, serotonin.

The chemicals of bliss, attention, desire and suffering all have daily rhythms.


endocannabinoids, huh! where can I get some of those?

t

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 8:34 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Interesting thoughts! I have been pondering the relation between stages and pms as well as between stages and sleep deprivation. The idea of everything having their own insight cycles makes sense to me. I believe it may explain a lot.

As someone who has PMDD, I have definitely recognised that my monthly menstrual cycle aligns with the stages of insight! emoticon

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 8:35 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Stickman2:
Lots of processes in the body and mind have circadian cycles.
Does this have a bearing on "cycling" ?
Does it have a bearing on the timing of breakthroughs in the progress of insight ?


(the following story is generally attributed to bankei)



Eat When You're Hungry


Someone asked a Zen Master, "How do you practice Zen?"

The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

"Isn't that what everyone does anyway?"

The master replied, "No, No. Most people entertains a thousand desires when they eat and scheme over a thousand plans when they sleep."

 emoticon

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 8:36 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
 There are different chronotypes, which means some people are early risers, some are late. So not everybody's rhythm is in sync. This seems to be a genetic predisposition. This means that in the typical 9-5 work schedule, some people will have had enough sleep and some people won't.
  I expect this also means the same for retreats with early morning starts, and maybe some people don't get enough REM sleep, which could have implications for psychosis and dark night etc.


Good point. So many individual factors to consider. 

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/26/19 6:04 AM as a reply to terry.

endocannabinoids, huh! where can I get some of those?

t
From the pharmacy of Terry.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/26/19 9:36 AM as a reply to Anna L.
Anna L:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Interesting thoughts! I have been pondering the relation between stages and pms as well as between stages and sleep deprivation. The idea of everything having their own insight cycles makes sense to me. I believe it may explain a lot.

As someone who has PMDD, I have definitely recognised that my monthly menstrual cycle aligns with the stages of insight! emoticon



I have PMDD too! This is almost getting creepy, huh. We should talk health and meditation, you and me.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/26/19 2:52 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:

endocannabinoids, huh! where can I get some of those?

t
From the pharmacy of Terry.
no doubt have choke already...
(smile)

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/26/19 5:28 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Anna L:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Interesting thoughts! I have been pondering the relation between stages and pms as well as between stages and sleep deprivation. The idea of everything having their own insight cycles makes sense to me. I believe it may explain a lot.

As someone who has PMDD, I have definitely recognised that my monthly menstrual cycle aligns with the stages of insight! emoticon



I have PMDD too! This is almost getting creepy, huh. We should talk health and meditation, you and me.
I suspected you might because I think you are my Swedish twin! emoticon Yes, send me a PM and I will send you my email address.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/27/19 3:08 PM as a reply to Anna L.
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

Except when you get the stick for nodding off. Or the master wants you up before dawn. etc.

Ha, I've heard this saying for decades and only just realised how unrealistic it is. Only musicians and artists get to sleep when they want, even the homeless have to vacate the shop doorway by 8:30.

OK I suppose it's "when getting whacked, just get whacked."

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/27/19 4:43 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

Except when you get the stick for nodding off. Or the master wants you up before dawn. etc.

Ha, I've heard this saying for decades and only just realised how unrealistic it is. Only musicians and artists get to sleep when they want, even the homeless have to vacate the shop doorway by 8:30.

OK I suppose it's "when getting whacked, just get whacked."


another, similar quote; probably bankei's original source for what is a common zen idea...

In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired go and lie down. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will understand.
RINZAI

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/27/19 5:34 PM as a reply to terry.
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

This isn't meant to be taken literally. It's describing the Zen ideal (awakening) that excludes all the extra "stuff" human beings add to their experience. It's akin to Jack Kornfield saying, "After the ecstasy, the laundry."

It's pretty much the same thing terry said.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/28/19 6:38 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

This isn't meant to be taken literally. It's describing the Zen ideal (awakening) that excludes all the extra "stuff" human beings add to their experience. It's akin to Jack Kornfield saying, "After the ecstasy, the laundry."

It's pretty much the same thing terry said.
Masters need to make themselves clear. How about "I'm telling you to do everything with a completely still mind, but I know that's impossible for you until you awaken, which might never happen, so don't take it as an injunction and keep your fingers crossed. But as well as a zen master I'm a circadian rhythms expert, so I can tell you that you're more likely to be daydreaming as you make your fire at around 2 in the afternoon, and you shouldn't try going to bed before 11 or you'll be laying there thinking about sex and video games for an hour."

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/28/19 6:48 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
Masters need to make themselves clear.

My guess is most of them probably think they are making themselves clear.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/28/19 8:44 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
emoticon Modern Besserwisser nerd gurus - I love it.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/28/19 1:05 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Masters need to make themselves clear.

My guess is most of them probably think they are making themselves clear.

A lot of them say they've stopped thinking. Usually followed by an example of their thoughts. Really, is it so difficult to insert the word most into the sentence "I stopped thinking". Tsk!

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/28/19 1:29 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
A lot of them say they've stopped thinking.

Can you name any of them? I can only think of one who said he has stilled his "default mode" thoughts dramatically but doesn't claim to have stopped thinking entirely. That's Gary Weber.

And of course it's nonsense to say you've stopped thinking altogether. That would mean you're dead.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/28/19 6:55 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
A lot of them say they've stopped thinking.

Can you name any of them? I can only think of one who said he has stilled his "default mode" thoughts dramatically but doesn't claim to have stopped thinking entirely. That's Gary Weber.

And of course it's nonsense to say you've stopped thinking altogether. That would mean you're dead.

Well Gary Weber is very good, so, not him.
Yes I can name some, but I don't want to get finger pointy. I don't mean just zen masters BTW, I've been reading spiritual stuff for decades and I know it's something people say. Yah I'm sure you've heard this.
Oh ok seeing as you're twisting my arm emoticon here's a great example.
https://youtu.be/TrxRgpsrpGg


So we can go back to the original proverbial master and amend his phrase again thus -

"When chopping wood, sort of just chop wood. When carrying water, think about how your brother has a really nice bucket you could use".

More realistic, not as snappy.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 4:41 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
"When chopping wood, sort of just chop wood. When carrying water, think about how your brother has a really nice bucket you could use".


hahahahaha!

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 11:10 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
A lot of them say they've stopped thinking.

Can you name any of them? I can only think of one who said he has stilled his "default mode" thoughts dramatically but doesn't claim to have stopped thinking entirely. That's Gary Weber.

And of course it's nonsense to say you've stopped thinking altogether. That would mean you're dead.
What I've found, through painful experience, is that the value of not thinking can be used as an ego weapon that translates as "your thoughts about my bullshit are impediments to your peace and enlightenment." Which is persuasive because a still mind is so lovely and preferable to conflict, debate or trying to get some common sense across.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 11:58 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
You have a point there, Stickman2. I’m not very impressed by people who derail important talks about injustice in the world by way of implying that they are too enlightened and too loving to be bothered by such discussions. I didn’t follow the link so I can’t say anything about that particular example, though.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 12:35 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
The link was to a lecture by Barry Long. He passed away in 2003, so he's definitely not thinking  emoticon

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 1:11 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Oups... Maybe it’s a good idea not only to be careful about one’s wishes but also about one’s claims.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 1:30 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The link was to a lecture by Barry Long. He passed away in 2003, so he's definitely not thinking  emoticon


arf arf

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 3:44 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Chris Marti:
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

This isn't meant to be taken literally. It's describing the Zen ideal (awakening) that excludes all the extra "stuff" human beings add to their experience. It's akin to Jack Kornfield saying, "After the ecstasy, the laundry."

It's pretty much the same thing terry said.
Masters need to make themselves clear. How about "I'm telling you to do everything with a completely still mind, but I know that's impossible for you until you awaken, which might never happen, so don't take it as an injunction and keep your fingers crossed. But as well as a zen master I'm a circadian rhythms expert, so I can tell you that you're more likely to be daydreaming as you make your fire at around 2 in the afternoon, and you shouldn't try going to bed before 11 or you'll be laying there thinking about sex and video games for an hour."

aloha stickman,

   I don't agree that masters are always obliged to make themselves clear. It is the obligation of one who wants to understand to make sense of what zen says. The master can't give you a sense of humor. Or a sense of zen. The master can't ask your question, or humbly receive the answer. A cryptic indication may be given; it is up to one who wants to know to ask for an explanation. The one who sincerely enquires receives kindness rather than blows.

   When rinzai adds the emphasis of "the wise will understand," he is indicating that the saying is not as simple as attending to one's circadian rhythms. "Eat when hungry" is a metaphor; nothing in zen is meant literally, unless it is literalness itself. With grandmotherly kindness, rinzai explains that it is a matter of buddhism not requiring effort. And that simply being "ordinary" is a practice leading to the effortlessness of nirvana.

   We expend effort when we want to acquire something, or to avoid something. It is a matter of desire, of wanting things to be diffferent, of not accepting things as they are, in their inimitable and unrepresentable unique suchness. 

   In the yi jing is the 27th hexagram, called "jaws"; the "image" of the hexagram is: "see how the jaws try to fill the mouth." This is part of what is meant by "eat when hungry." Be mindful of what you eat, what you consume, what you think and feel. Bankei points out that when we "eat" we are obsessed with consumption. Rinzai wants us to be hungry when we eat. Consider how often the average westerner is ever actually hungry. Virtually never. One eats for entertainment, and because it is time to eat, or because someone offers, or it is expected, or because one has many desires and mealtime or snack time is an anticipated opportunity for indulgence. And so on.

   Taking rest when one is actually tired is the same sort of thing. If people actually were tired when they laid down to sleep, there wouldn't be any insomnia. Who actually works enough to tire their muscles and body any more, every day before sleep?

   As for the value of such advice: people seem in general to have a lot of disturbances due to eating and sleeping poorly. Contemplating the nature of truly being at peace and satisfied with our bodies physical needs can't hurt. Including your interest in circadian rhythms, no doubt. Though eating and sleeping in accordance with such rhythms can't be any easier, or even very different, than eating when hungry and sleeping when tired.

   The idea that only artists can sleep when tired and eat when hungry may be true.


terry



tao te ching, trans feng


5.

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling. 
Not collecting treasures prevents stealing. 
Not seeing desirable things prevents confusion of the heart.

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones. 
If men lack knowledge and desire, then clever people will not try to interfere. 
If nothing is done, then all will be well.


   

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 3:59 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Masters need to make themselves clear.

My guess is most of them probably think they are making themselves clear.

aloha chris,

   Hui-neng in the platform sutra gives pretty explicit advice on how to handle inquiries about zen. If one approaches from the absolute, one gets the phenomenal; if one approaches from the phenomenal, one gets the absolute. In this case, if one approaches from clarity, one gets opacity; if one approaches from opacity, one gets clarity. Offer metaphysics, you get semantics; offer semantics, you get metaphysics. Zen never agrees with you. There is nothing contrived about this. The masters are contrary. Their concern is for being awake. The average communication amounts to: "snap out of it!" Merely making clear is left to pundits.

terry


tao te ching, trans feng


15.

The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive. 
The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable. 
Because it is unfathomable, 
All we can do is describe their appearance. 
Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream. 
Alert, like men aware of danger. 
Courteous, like visiting guests. 
Yielding like ice about to melt. 
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood. 
Hollow, like caves. 
Opaque, like muddy pools.

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles? 
Who can remain still until the moment of action? 
Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment. 
Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.

 

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 4:15 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
A lot of them say they've stopped thinking.

Can you name any of them? I can only think of one who said he has stilled his "default mode" thoughts dramatically but doesn't claim to have stopped thinking entirely. That's Gary Weber.

And of course it's nonsense to say you've stopped thinking altogether. That would mean you're dead.

aloha chris,

   I am honestly surprised that you don't think that you have stopped thinking, at least for intervals, while meditating.

   By extension, between thoughts we are still minded.

   The idea of a continuous flow of thought is not the phenomenon we actually experience. There are gaps. Aren't there?

terry

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/29/19 4:31 PM as a reply to terry.
We're talking here about not thinking at all, permanently.

Helpful?

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/30/19 7:21 AM as a reply to terry.
Like what Chris said. This confusion is really an extension of the confusing language teachers and masters use. I'm not the first to note this, and I saw Jeffery Martin (if I dare mention his name) noted it too.
Another example

http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/other/my-thoughtmenu-on-enlightenment-3644

Where a commenter properly comments

"Wait a minute – you say your internal dialogue stopped. Then you say you thought because of this that you’d gone mad and broken yourself…. which is internal dialogue."

Exactly.

So, OK, you have to do a bit of work to figure out what they really mean, and you have to do that because they can't make themselves clear. Which isn't unusual because you have to do that with a lot of people, all of which adds up to the fact that enlightenment doesn't necessarily bestow clarity of expression.

I was baffled for ages wondering if Barry Long really meant he never thinks, or whether he was a gaslighting creep.

Yet Gary Weber shows that it's pretty easy to make youself clear.

And yet it's good question whether we can live without thinking at all. What I mean is that if other organisms can live without thought then can we ? We would have to know what, exactly, counts as thinking and do other organisms do it ? Can we get by on pure thoughtless instinct ?

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/30/19 7:35 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
... enlightenment doesn't necessarily bestow clarity of expression.

This is but one of the many things awakening does not bestow. Common sense is another.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/30/19 7:56 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... enlightenment doesn't necessarily bestow clarity of expression.

This is but one of the many things awakening does not bestow. Common sense is another.



Yup. We need to work on that in other ways.

I don’t think being entirely free from thoughts is a goal worth pursuing. That would make us into a virus or something, or a mushroom. Or braindead.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/30/19 9:11 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... enlightenment doesn't necessarily bestow clarity of expression.

This is but one of the many things awakening does not bestow. Common sense is another.


In fairness I should say that, despite the little thing about thought stopping, Vinay Gupta is abundantly endowed with clarity of expression and common sense. As can be seen in this stream of geekery
https://twitter.com/leashless

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/1/19 8:47 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Like what Chris said. This confusion is really an extension of the confusing language teachers and masters use. I'm not the first to note this, and I saw Jeffery Martin (if I dare mention his name) noted it too.
Another example

http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/other/my-thoughtmenu-on-enlightenment-3644

Where a commenter properly comments

"Wait a minute – you say your internal dialogue stopped. Then you say you thought because of this that you’d gone mad and broken yourself…. which is internal dialogue."

Exactly.

So, OK, you have to do a bit of work to figure out what they really mean, and you have to do that because they can't make themselves clear. Which isn't unusual because you have to do that with a lot of people, all of which adds up to the fact that enlightenment doesn't necessarily bestow clarity of expression.

I was baffled for ages wondering if Barry Long really meant he never thinks, or whether he was a gaslighting creep.

Yet Gary Weber shows that it's pretty easy to make youself clear.

And yet it's good question whether we can live without thinking at all. What I mean is that if other organisms can live without thought then can we ? We would have to know what, exactly, counts as thinking and do other organisms do it ? Can we get by on pure thoughtless instinct ?

aloha stickman and chris,

    I draw little distinction between thinking and speaking, or writing. Even emotions seem to me to be compacted thinking, too complex to represent in linear thought. And all of these are actions, as well, so there is no real distinction between thought, speech and action. No actual boundaries. Thus, to cease thinking would be to cease speaking and acting. The real question seems to me to be attachment to an ego which thinks, speaks, and acts.

   By "other organisms" I assume you mean sentient beings other than humans, a group I generally think of as "us." I often think that human awareness is identical to that even of amoebas and bacteria, let alone insects and animals. Every sentient being - by definition - is aware of the environment, often by means of senses we have no concept of. Acid-base gradients, presence or absence of certain chemicals or gases, and so forth. Each creature creates a world within which it lives and reproduces. This world is experienced by each as "my world." Choices are made by each creature. Are these choices made by "thoughtless instinct"? Are the choices made by worms and shrews any different from choices made by people? When birds chatter, are they not speaking of their activities and "choices," same as us? They choose to eat and mate, as we do. Do animals run free? Do we?

   Do animals and other sentient beings have egos? If we do, and they don't, can we be as they are? What is actually natural after all?

terry


lin yutang, selections from chuang tzu, in 'the wisdom of lao tse':

ON RETURNING TO NATURE. "What do you mean by nature or the natural. And what do you mean by man or the artificial?" asked the River Spirit.

And the Spirit of the North Sea replied, "When a cow or a horse walks about with his four legs (in freedom), we call it nature. To put a halter around the horse's head and put a ring through the cow's nose, that we call the artificial. Therefore it is said, do not let the artificial submerge the natural. Do not for material purposes destroy your life. Do not sacrifice your character lor fame. Guard carefully your nature and do not let it go astray. This is called returning to one's nature." (4:13)


53.1. THINK FOR THE PIGS. A soothsayer put on his priest's garb and approached the pig pen. He spoke to the pigs, 'Do you hate to die? I shall feed you for three months, then fast you for ten days and segregate you for three days and then I shall put you on the sacrificial altar and cover your shoulders and haunches with white hay. What do you think of such a proposition?" Then he thought that if he were in the pig's place, the pig would reply, "I would rather that you would feed me with bran and leave me alone in the pig pen." But when a man plans for himself, he does not mind living with the honor and glory of badges and titles, and being put on a hearse inside its decorative arched cover. When a man thinks for the pig, he rejects such a proposition. But when he plans for himself, he accepts it. What difference is there between him and a pig? (5:5) 




eighth duino elegy, rainer maria rilke, trans mitchell

With all its eyes the natural world looks out
into the Open. Only our eyes are turned
backward, and surround plant, animal, child
like traps, as they emerge into their freedom.
We know what is really out there only from
the animal’s gaze; for we take the very young
child and force it around, so that is sees
objects—not the Open, which is so
deep in animals’ faces. Free from death.
We, only, can see death; the free animal
has its decline in back of it, forever,
and God in front, and when it moves, it moves
already in eternity, like a fountain.
Never, not for a single day, do we have
before us that pure space into which flowers
endlessly open. Always there is World
and never Nowhere without the No: that pure
unseparated element which one breathes
without desire and endlessly knows. A child
may wander there for hours, through the timeless
stillness, may get lost in it and be
shaken back. Or someone dies and is it.
For, nearing death, one doesn’t see death; but stares
beyond, perhaps with an animal’s vast gaze.
Lovers, if the beloved were not there
blocking the view, are close to it, and marvel...
As if by some mistake, it opens for them
behind each other … But neither can move past
the other, and it changes back to World.
Forever turned toward objects, we see in them
the mere reflection of the realm of freedom,
which we have dimmed. Or when some animal
mutely, serenely, looks us through and through.
That is what fate means: to be opposite,
to be opposite and nothing else, forever.
If the animal moving toward us so securely
in a different direction had our kind of
consciousness—, it would wrench us around and drag us
along its path. But it feels its life as boundless,
unfathomable, and without regard
to its own condition: pure, like its outward gaze.
And where we see the future, it sees all time
and itself within all time, forever healed.
Yet in the alert, warm animal there lies
the pain and burden of an enormous sadness.
For it too feels the presence of what often
overwhelms us: a memory, as if
the element we keep pressing toward was once
more intimate, more true, and our communion
infinitely tender. Here all is distance;
there it was breath. After that first home,
the second seems ambiguous and drafty.
Oh bliss of the tiny creature which remains
forever inside the womb that was its shelter;
joy of the gnat which, still within, leaps up
even at its marriage: for everything is womb.
And look at the half-assurance of the bird,
which knows both inner and outer, from its source,
as if it were the soul of an Etruscan,
flown out of a dead man received inside a space,
but with his reclining image as the lid.
And how bewildered is any womb-born creature
that has to fly. As if terrified and fleeing
from itself, it zigzags through the air, the way
a crack runs through a teacup. So the bat
quivers across the porcelain of evening.
And we: spectators, always, everywhere,
turned toward the world of objects, never outward.
It fills us. We arrange it. It breaks down.
We rearrange it, then break down ourselves.
Who has twisted us around like this, so that
no matter what we do, we are in the posture
of someone going away? Just as, upon
the farthest hill, which shows him his whole valley
one last time, he turns, stops, lingers—,
so we live here, forever taking leave.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/1/19 9:15 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
... enlightenment doesn't necessarily bestow clarity of expression.

This is but one of the many things awakening does not bestow. Common sense is another.


Yup. We need to work on that in other ways.

I don’t think being entirely free from thoughts is a goal worth pursuing. That would make us into a virus or something, or a mushroom. Or braindead.
aloha chris and stick,

   Common sense - that is, conventional thinking and behavior - may be discarded by the awake. Or not.
   
   Seeking to be free of thought may be good practice. Being "free" does not mean there is no thought, only that we need pay no attention to it. It happens, like anything happens, and we let it. 

   We may be obsessed with thinking. Thinking may proliferate beyond all reason. Meditating non-thought can be a remedy.

terry


lin yutang, from chuang tzu, in 'the wisdom of lao tzu':


11.1. THE USEFULNESS OF NOT-BEING. When the eye is cleared of obstacles it sees sharply. When the ear is cleared of obstacles it hears well. When the nose is not blocked up, it smells well. When the mouth is cleared, it tastes well. When the mind is clear, it thinks well. When knowledge is cleared of obstacles, one attains the character of Tao. Tao must not be blocked; when it is blocked it is choked and if it continues to be choked, it stumbles. When it stumbles, all creation Is harmed. All sentient life depends on the breath. When the breath is disturbed, it is not the fault of nature. Nature keeps it open day and night without cease, but man continuously blocks it up. The human embryo has a surrounding membrane (which allows it to move about), and the human mind must be free to roam about in the universe. When there is no empty space in a house, then the mother-in-law and daughter-in-law bicker with one another. When the mind is deprived of its opportunity to roam about, then the six instincts begin to clash with one another. The reason why we feel good when going to a great forest or a hill is because our spirits are usually cramped. (7:8) 

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/2/19 5:41 AM as a reply to terry.
Being free in that respect would be a good thing. Agreed.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/2/19 6:06 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Like what Chris said. This confusion is really an extension of the confusing language teachers and masters use. I'm not the first to note this, and I saw Jeffery Martin (if I dare mention his name) noted it too.
Another example

http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/other/my-thoughtmenu-on-enlightenment-3644

Where a commenter properly comments

"Wait a minute – you say your internal dialogue stopped. Then you say you thought because of this that you’d gone mad and broken yourself…. which is internal dialogue."

Exactly.

So, OK, you have to do a bit of work to figure out what they really mean, and you have to do that because they can't make themselves clear. Which isn't unusual because you have to do that with a lot of people, all of which adds up to the fact that enlightenment doesn't necessarily bestow clarity of expression.

I was baffled for ages wondering if Barry Long really meant he never thinks, or whether he was a gaslighting creep.

Yet Gary Weber shows that it's pretty easy to make youself clear.

And yet it's good question whether we can live without thinking at all. What I mean is that if other organisms can live without thought then can we ? We would have to know what, exactly, counts as thinking and do other organisms do it ? Can we get by on pure thoughtless instinct ?


aloha stick,

   Speaking of confusion and clarity of expression, it occurs to me that simple thinking is not necessarily dialogue. Dialogue implies the dualism of having two "selves," one to speak and the other to engage, listening and responding. Suppose one thinks but does not respond or engage, just lets the thought float on a sea of silence, until it dissipates? Call it meditation.

   If no one is listening, is anyone speaking? The sound of one hand clapping...

terry

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/2/19 9:30 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
... enlightenment doesn't necessarily bestow clarity of expression.

This is but one of the many things awakening does not bestow. Common sense is another.


Yup. We need to work on that in other ways.

I don’t think being entirely free from thoughts is a goal worth pursuing. That would make us into a virus or something, or a mushroom. Or braindead.
aloha chris and stick,

   Common sense - that is, conventional thinking and behavior - may be discarded by the awake. Or not.
   
   Seeking to be free of thought may be good practice. Being "free" does not mean there is no thought, only that we need pay no attention to it. It happens, like anything happens, and we let it. 

   We may be obsessed with thinking. Thinking may proliferate beyond all reason. Meditating non-thought can be a remedy.

terry


lin yutang, from chuang tzu, in 'the wisdom of lao tzu':


11.1. THE USEFULNESS OF NOT-BEING. When the eye is cleared of obstacles it sees sharply. When the ear is cleared of obstacles it hears well. When the nose is not blocked up, it smells well. When the mouth is cleared, it tastes well. When the mind is clear, it thinks well. When knowledge is cleared of obstacles, one attains the character of Tao. Tao must not be blocked; when it is blocked it is choked and if it continues to be choked, it stumbles. When it stumbles, all creation Is harmed. All sentient life depends on the breath.  The human embryo has a surrounding membrane (which allows it to move about), and the human mind must be free to roam about in the universe. When there is no empty space in a house, then the mother-in-law and daughter-in-law bicker with one another. When the mind is deprived of its opportunity to roam about, then the six instincts begin to clash with one another. The reason why we feel good when going to a great forest or a hill is because our spirits are usually cramped. (7:8) 

I agree, common sense may be discarded or not.

"When the breath is disturbed, it is not the fault of nature. Nature keeps it open day and night without cease, but man continuously blocks it up."

What about when nature gives you pneumonia, asthma or TB ? Or does something horrible to you that makes you breath shallowly ?

Do wild animals get emotional and uptight ? Does a gazelle that thinks it heard a lion suddenly hold it's breath in fear ? I know I would.

Maybe Chuang Tzu should have built a hide and done some proper ethology.

Bob Sapolsky*, however, has done a ton of ethology emoticon

Why don't zebra's get ulcers ?

I think if the breath is disturbed it's entirely the fault of nature. Whoever wrote that seems to have a similar nature/humanity dichotomy problem as those who think god's omnipotence doesn't apply to his own creation.

So there.


*Maybe he has a point, he's only one scientist in many, and other's say wild animals get stressed.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/2/19 9:31 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
[...]
I agree, common sense may be discarded or not.

"When the breath is disturbed, it is not the fault of nature. Nature keeps it open day and night without cease, but man continuously blocks it up."

What about when nature gives you pneumonia, asthma or TB ? Or does something horrible to you that makes you breath shallowly ?

Do wild animals get emotional and uptight ? Does a gazelle that thinks it heard a lion suddenly hold it's breath in fear ? I know I would.

Maybe Chuang Tzu should have built a hide and done some proper ethology.

Bob Sapolsky, however, has done a ton of ethology emoticon

Why don't zebra's get ulcers ?

(Maybe he has a point, he's only one scientist in many, and other's say wild animals get stressed)

I think if the breath is disturbed it's entirely the fault of nature. Whoever wrote that seems to have a similar nature/humanity dichotomy problem as those who think god's omnipotence doesn't apply to his own creation.

So there.
Dude, you ever thought about starting your own religion? It would probably be both very efficient and excruciatingly boring, but once it eventually gets corrupted (as they all do) it may be in a novel and interesting way!

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/2/19 4:58 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
[quote=Stickman2


snip

]I agree, common sense may be discarded or not.

"When the breath is disturbed, it is not the fault of nature. Nature keeps it open day and night without cease, but man continuously blocks it up."

What about when nature gives you pneumonia, asthma or TB ? Or does something horrible to you that makes you breath shallowly ?

Do wild animals get emotional and uptight ? Does a gazelle that thinks it heard a lion suddenly hold it's breath in fear ? I know I would.

Maybe Chuang Tzu should have built a hide and done some proper ethology.

Bob Sapolsky*, however, has done a ton of ethology emoticon

Why don't zebra's get ulcers ?

I think if the breath is disturbed it's entirely the fault of nature. Whoever wrote that seems to have a similar nature/humanity dichotomy problem as those who think god's omnipotence doesn't apply to his own creation.

So there.


*Maybe he has a point, he's only one scientist in many, and other's say wild animals get stressed.







aloha stick,

   Chuang tzu was unconcerned with proper ethology. He was uninfected with scientism, which had yet to be invented; animals were not objects to him, but near relatives. I won't repeat "the joy of fishes" here, but you may have missed this bit in the elegy of rilke's that I recently posted:

Yet in the alert, warm animal there lies
the pain and burden of an enormous sadness.
For it too feels the presence of what often
overwhelms us: a memory, as if
the element we keep pressing toward was once
more intimate, more true, and our communion
infinitely tender. Here all is distance;
there it was breath. After that first home,
the second seems ambiguous and drafty.

   Animals these days are the shadows of the animals that chuang tzu knew. There are no dragons and tigers in our wilderness. All animals fear man or his works; all have their breath impaired. All have halters around their heads and rings through their noses. There are no wild animals. Even the hairs on their hides are numbered and accounted for, for the purposes of exploitation.

   One day soon people will regard meat-eating like they now regard wearing fur. Probably when it gets too expensive for most of us.

   Generally speaking, bra, if old lao or chuang ever said something absurd, as they did frequently, they meant you to take a closer look, and not be so literal minded. 

   You personify nature and claim it does things to you, and other animals. Horrible things. Is the great Tao then malevolent? Do not your agents of destruction, your TB organisms and pneumonia bacteria deserve life and breath also? Accepting what is natural, must we also accept what is unnatural and manifestly harmful, like proverbial rings through our noses, yokes on our backs? Global warming and the ongoing extinction of more and more species? What good are ethologists doing as we systematically destroy animal life? 

   Clearly, taoists drew a distinction between natural and artificial that you do not. In this there is fundamental disagreement between you and taoism, you and zen. Zen practices to affirm one's True Nature or Buddha Nature, effacing the social conditioning which affirms self nature where there is none.

   I'm not sure where you are coming from with this. What is your take on zen, if the taoists are all wrong? And the ethologists have it right. Why bother with buddhism, or practice?


terry




from "he" by franz kafka



Some deny the existence of misery by pointing to the sun; he denies the existence of the sun by pointing to misery.

and

The original sin, the ancient wrong committed by man, consists in the complaint, which man makes and never ceases making, that a wrong has been done to him, that the original sin was once committed upon him.



 

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/3/19 1:52 PM as a reply to terry.
another story from lin yutang, quoting chuang tzu:



28.1. THE HORSE-TRAINER POLO. Horses have hoofs to carry them over frost and snow, and hair to protect them from wind and cold. They feed on grass and drink water, and fling up their tails and gallop. Such is the real nature of horses. They have no use for ceremonial halls and big dwellings.

One day Polo (famous horse-trainer) appealed, saying, "I am good at managing horses." So he burned their hair and clipped them, and pared their hoofs and branded them. He put halters around their necks and shackles around their legs and numbered them according to their stables. The result was that two or three in every ten died. Then he kept them hungry and thirsty, trotting them and galloping them, and taught them to run in formation, with the misery of the tasselled bridle in front and the fear of the knotted whip behind, until more than half of them died.

The potter says, "I am good at managing clay. If I want it round, I use compasses; if rectangular, a square." The carpenter says, "I am good at managing wood. If I want it curved, I use an arc; if straight, a line." But on what grounds can we think that the nature of clay and wood desires this application of compasses and square, and arc and line? Nevertheless, every age extols Polo for his skill in training horses, and potters and carpenters for their skill with clay and wood. Those who manage (govern) the affairs of the empire make the same mistake.

I think one who knows how to govern the empire should not do so. For the people have certain natural instincts—to weave and clothe themselves, to till the fields and feed themselves. This is their common character, in which all share. Such instincts may be called "Heaven-born." So in the days of perfect nature, men were quiet in their movements and serene in their looks. At that time, there were no paths over mountains, no boats or bridges over waters. All things were produced, each in its natural district. Birds and beasts multiplied; trees and shrubs thrived. Thus it was that birds and beasts could be led by the hand, and one could climb up and peep into the magpie's nest. For in the days of perfect nature, man lived together with birds and beasts, and there was no distinction of kind. Who could know of the distinctions between gentlemen and common people? Being all equally without knowledge, their character could not go astray. Being all equally without desires, they were in a state of natural integrity. In this state of natural integrity, the people did not lose their (original) nature.

And then when Sages appeared, straining for humanity and limping with justice, doubt and confusion entered men's minds. They said they must make merry by means of music and enforce distinctions by means of ceremony, and the empire became divided against itself. Were the uncarved wood not cut up, who could make sacrificial vessels? Were Tao and character not destroyed, what use would there be for humanity and justice? Were man's natural instincts not lost, what need would there be for music and ceremonies? Were the five notes not confused, who would adopt the six pitch-pipes? Destruction of the natural integrity of things for the production of articles of various kinds—this is the fault of the artisan. Destruction of Tao and character in order to strive for humanity and justice—this is the error of the Sages. (3:3)

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/3/19 2:40 PM as a reply to terry.
Were man's natural instincts not lost, what need would there be for music and ceremonies? Were the five notes not confused, who would adopt the six pitch-pipes? Destruction of the natural integrity of things for the production of articles of various kinds—this is the fault of the artisan. Destruction of Tao and character in order to strive for humanity and justice—this is the error of the Sages. (3:3)

Every religion seems to have this kind of story within it somewhere; human beings were, in their original state of nature, peaceful, blissful and lived among all creatures with ease (the Garden of Eden, for example). Then somehow human beings lost this blissful and peaceful (really innocent and harmless) existence and got tossed or began to deviate from, heaven, nature, or whatever.

It's a beautiful story but it's contradicted by everything we know about human nature, both now and way, way back then. We know human beings have always needed to eat to survive, and early humans didn't just eat vegetable matter. Intelligence and its application to things are thus portrayed as sinful, and the cause of humanity's downfall.

But it is a beautiful story. 

emoticon

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/3/19 2:54 PM as a reply to terry.
"You personify nature and claim it does things to you, and other animals. Horrible things. Is the great Tao then malevolent? Do not your agents of destruction, your TB organisms and pneumonia bacteria deserve life and breath also?"

Not if they're trying to kill me, no.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/3/19 3:16 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Were man's natural instincts not lost, what need would there be for music and ceremonies? Were the five notes not confused, who would adopt the six pitch-pipes? Destruction of the natural integrity of things for the production of articles of various kinds—this is the fault of the artisan. Destruction of Tao and character in order to strive for humanity and justice—this is the error of the Sages. (3:3)

Every religion seems to have this kind of story within it somewhere; human beings were, in their original state of nature, peaceful, blissful and lived among all creatures with ease (the Garden of Eden, for example). Then somehow human beings lost this blissful and peaceful (really innocent and harmless) existence and got tossed or began to deviate from, heaven, nature, or whatever.

It's a beautiful story but it's contradicted by everything we know about human nature, both now and way, way back then. We know human beings have always needed to eat to survive, and early humans didn't just eat vegetable matter. Intelligence and its application to things are thus portrayed as sinful, and the cause of humanity's downfall.

But it is a beautiful story. 

emoticon

But if you're looking for a prehistorical start to the narrative self, at the start of language and an internal voice, then there may be something in those stories. But finding a sudden and clear demarcation between thoughtless, timeless animal bliss, and human misery isn't going to be easy.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/3/19 4:17 PM as a reply to terry.
You seem to be a big literature lover, Terry, a strong sense of the poetic.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/4/19 12:31 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
But finding a sudden and clear demarcation between thoughtless, timeless animal bliss, and human misery...

I'm not so sure there is or ever was such a thing as "thoughtless, timeless animal bliss." It seems to me to be a myth.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/4/19 1:29 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
But finding a sudden and clear demarcation between thoughtless, timeless animal bliss, and human misery...

I'm not so sure there is or ever was such a thing as "thoughtless, timeless animal bliss." It seems to me to be a myth.

Yeah it's what I meant - the mythical golden age and fall. Some people try to locate this within modern evolutionary theory, as if animals are enlightened and evolved into fallen humans.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/5/19 5:54 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Were man's natural instincts not lost, what need would there be for music and ceremonies? Were the five notes not confused, who would adopt the six pitch-pipes? Destruction of the natural integrity of things for the production of articles of various kinds—this is the fault of the artisan. Destruction of Tao and character in order to strive for humanity and justice—this is the error of the Sages. (3:3)

Every religion seems to have this kind of story within it somewhere; human beings were, in their original state of nature, peaceful, blissful and lived among all creatures with ease (the Garden of Eden, for example). Then somehow human beings lost this blissful and peaceful (really innocent and harmless) existence and got tossed or began to deviate from, heaven, nature, or whatever.

It's a beautiful story but it's contradicted by everything we know about human nature, both now and way, way back then. We know human beings have always needed to eat to survive, and early humans didn't just eat vegetable matter. Intelligence and its application to things are thus portrayed as sinful, and the cause of humanity's downfall.

But it is a beautiful story. 

emoticon

aloha chris,

   Say you have two stories, equally powerful and appropriate, that cover Reality. One is beautiful, the other ugly. You choose. Or, better, don't.

terry



from aphorisms, #83, franz kafka


We are sinful, not only because we have eaten of the Tree of Knowledge, but also because we have not yet eaten of the Tree of Life. The condition in which we find ourselves is sinful, guilt or no guilt.



from the mundaka upanishad, trans sri aurobindo:


Two birds, beautiful of wings, close companions, cling to one common tree: of the two one eats the sweet fruit of the tree, the other eats not but watches his fellow. The soul is the bird that sits immersed on the common tree; but because he is not lord he is bewildered and has sorrow. But when he sees that other who is the Lord and the beloved, he knows that all is His greatness and his sorrow passes away from him. When, a seer, he sees the Golden-hued, the maker, the Lord, the Spirit who is the source of Brahman, then he becomes the knower and shake from his wings sin and virtue; pure of all stain he reaches the supreme identity.

and

The two-bird parable is in fact Vedic in its origin, the first shloka actually belonging to Rig Veda itself. (I: 164:20) The complete description as given there is as follows:
Two birds with fair wings, knit with bonds of friendship, in the same sheltering tree have found a refuge. One of the twain eats the sweet Fig-tree’s fruitage; the other eating not regardeth only. Where those fine Birds hymn ceaselessly their portion of life eternal, and the sacred synods, there is the Universe’s mighty Keeper who, wise, hath entered into me the simple. The tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness, where they all rest and procreate their offspring, upon its top they say the fig is luscious: none gaineth who knoweth not the father.



from anthony demello, awareness:


ALL'S RIGHT WITH THE WORLD

When you awaken, when you understand, when you see, the world becomes right. We’re always bothered by the problem of evil. There’s a powerful story about a little boy walking along the bank of a river. He sees a crocodile who is trapped in a net. The crocodile says, “Would you have pity on me and release me? I may look ugly, but it isn’t my fault, you know. I was made this way. But whatever my external appearance, I have a mother’s heart. I came this morning in search of food for my young ones and got caught in this trap!” So the boy says, “Ah, if I were to help you out of that trap, you’d grab me and kill me.” The crocodile asks, “Do you think I would do that to my benefactor and liberator?” So the boy is persuaded to take the net off and the crocodile grabs him. As he is being forced between the jaws of the crocodile, he says, “So this is what I get for my good actions.” And the crocodile says, “Well, don’t take it personally, son, this is the way the world is, this is the law of life.” The boy disputes this, so the crocodile says, “Do you want to ask someone if it isn’t so?” The boys sees a bird sitting on a branch and says, “Bird, is what the crocodile says right?” The bird says, “The crocodile is right. Look at me. I was coming home one day with food for my fledglings. Imagine my horror to see a snake crawling up the tree, making straight for my nest. I was totally helpless. It kept devouring my young ones, one after the other. I kept screaming and shouting, but it was useless. The crocodile is right, this is the law of life, this is the way the world is.” “See,” says the crocodile. But the boy says, “Let me ask someone else.” So the crocodile says, “Well, all right, go ahead.” There was an old donkey passing by on the bank of the river. “Donkey,” says the boy, “this is what the crocodile says. Is the crocodile right? The donkey says, “The crocodile is quite right. Look at me. I’ve worked and slaved for my master all my life and he barely gave me enough to eat. Now that I’m old and useless, he has turned me loose, and here I am wandering in the jungle, waiting for some wild beast to pounce on me and put an end to my life. The crocodile is right, this is the law of life, this is the way the world is.” “See,” says the crocodile. “Let’s go!” The boy says, “Give me one more chance, one last chance. Let me ask one other being. Remember how good I was to you?” So the crocodile says, “All right, your last chance.” The boy sees a rabbit passing by, and he says, “Rabbit, is the crocodile right?” The rabbit sits on his haunches and says to the crocodile, “Did you say that to that boy? The crocodile says, 'Yes, I did.” “Wait a minute,” says the rabbit. “We’ve got to discuss this.” “Yes,” says the crocodile. But the rabbit says, “How can we discuss it when you’ve got that boy in your mouth? Release him; he’s got to take part in the discussion, too. The crocodile says, “You’re a clever one, you are. The moment I release him, he’ll run away.” The rabbit says, “I thought you had more sense than that. If he attempted to run away, one slash of your tail would kill him.” “Fair enough,” says the crocodile, and he released the boy. The moment the boy is released, the rabbit says, “Run!” And the boy runs and escapes. Then the rabbit says to the boy, “Don’t you enjoy crocodile flesh? Wouldn’t the people in your village like a good meal? You didn’t really release that crocodile; most of his body is still caught in that net. Why don’t you go to the village and bring everybody and have a banquet.” That’s exactly what the boy does. He goes to the village and calls all the menfolk. They come with their axes and staves and spears and kill the crocodile. The boy’s dog comes, too, and when the dog sees the rabbit, he gives chase, catches hold of the rabbit, and throttles him. The boy comes on the scene too late, and as he watches the rabbit die, he says, “The crocodile was right, this is the way the world is, this is the law of life.” There is no explanation you can give that would explain away all the sufferings and evil and torture and destruction and hunger in the world! You’ll never explain it. You can try gamely with your formulas, religious and otherwise, but you’ll never explain it. Because life is a mystery, which means your thinking mind cannot make sense out of it. For that you’ve got to wake up and then you’ll suddenly realize that reality is not problematic, you are the problem.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/5/19 5:55 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
You seem to be a big literature lover, Terry, a strong sense of the poetic.

(beams)

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/5/19 5:56 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
But finding a sudden and clear demarcation between thoughtless, timeless animal bliss, and human misery...

I'm not so sure there is or ever was such a thing as "thoughtless, timeless animal bliss." It seems to me to be a myth.


moo

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/5/19 6:03 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
"You personify nature and claim it does things to you, and other animals. Horrible things. Is the great Tao then malevolent? Do not your agents of destruction, your TB organisms and pneumonia bacteria deserve life and breath also?"

Not if they're trying to kill me, no.

sakyamuni, before he incarnated as the buddha, once sacrificed his body so a sick, emaciated tiger could feed her young...

pnemococcus bacteria was once known as "the old man's friend" for the way it eased a person into death...tb also was often regarded in a friendly way...now you want a truly dread disease, try yellow fever, smallpox, or cholera, not to mention the plague...

t

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/5/19 7:14 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Chris Marti:
But finding a sudden and clear demarcation between thoughtless, timeless animal bliss, and human misery...

I'm not so sure there is or ever was such a thing as "thoughtless, timeless animal bliss." It seems to me to be a myth.

Yeah it's what I meant - the mythical golden age and fall. Some people try to locate this within modern evolutionary theory, as if animals are enlightened and evolved into fallen humans.

perhaps fallen humans will evolve into enlightened animals...

t

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/6/19 6:12 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Stickman2:
Chris Marti:
But finding a sudden and clear demarcation between thoughtless, timeless animal bliss, and human misery...

I'm not so sure there is or ever was such a thing as "thoughtless, timeless animal bliss." It seems to me to be a myth.

Yeah it's what I meant - the mythical golden age and fall. Some people try to locate this within modern evolutionary theory, as if animals are enlightened and evolved into fallen humans.

perhaps fallen humans will evolve into enlightened animals...

t


Well, I think this is where I read up WIlber's pre/trans fallacy. Which sounds like it's about chicks with dicks, but I'm assured it's highly spiritual.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/6/19 7:53 AM as a reply to terry.
moo

I'd have said "Mu" but I certainly grok the reference.

emoticon

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/7/19 11:32 PM as a reply to terry.
HI Terry,

 I found some writing from this site about what I mean, where the contention of the awakened is, sometimes, that they don't think any more.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+The+Thought+Models


But he recognises that there may still be something more to the idea of thoughtless action.

"This is just an aside, but there appear to be a few people who have done something very interesting to their thoughts, and the likes of Gary Weber claim that they only arise when they are needed and otherwise they don't think in any way, and, if I understand this correctly, at least Gary
considers this to be the core condition for awakening."

Which is a way of experiencing life that sounds significantly different to Daniel's. I started out on a contemplative path following someone with a similar view on reduced thought, and it's much harder, conceptually, to be faced with.

On the other hand I find, tentatively, that there is something coming across from people who seem to have super quiet minds, a basic sense of stillness which I appreciate but is somewhat ephemeral.


ta

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/8/19 7:02 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
terry:
Stickman2:
Chris Marti:
But finding a sudden and clear demarcation between thoughtless, timeless animal bliss, and human misery...

I'm not so sure there is or ever was such a thing as "thoughtless, timeless animal bliss." It seems to me to be a myth.

Yeah it's what I meant - the mythical golden age and fall. Some people try to locate this within modern evolutionary theory, as if animals are enlightened and evolved into fallen humans.

perhaps fallen humans will evolve into enlightened animals...

t


Well, I think this is where I read up WIlber's pre/trans fallacy. Which sounds like it's about chicks with dicks, but I'm assured it's highly spiritual.
aloha stickman2,

   Wilber criticized freud and jung, and, in his expansive way, then current psychoanalytical theory for "confusing" different states of oceanic non-rational consciousness, namely animal ("pre-rational") and human. In wilber's view, f & j had not actually known mystic consciousness like himself. I think it would be reasonable to criticize all three for presuming they have any knowledge of pre-rational or animal consciousness. Oceanic or otherwise. We know a cow's contentment by our own; we know the joy of fishes from our own joy. Oceanic consciousness we know not. It is by definition and dare I say "experience" unknowable. Can one experience the unknowable? Conceptualize the unconceptualizable? I - think - not. Mystery is still mystery whatever it is called.

   I'm not ordinarily a big fan of john searle and his scientistic, AI-influenced, subject-oriented "philosophy of mind," but god bless the man for having a dog as a companion and friend. He understands that dogs have feelings, dreams and perhaps even thoughts just like "people" do. Most scientistic observers of the human condition assume the darwinian error that places man at the apex of evolution, as though all of nature finally has succeeded in producing the ultimate creation, that "beauty of the world, the paragon of animals" homo sapiens. The less anthropocentric truth (thank you xenophanes) is that all of life has evolved each other for mutual assistance. Animals and insects evolved as the plants way of propagating themselves more effectively. The web of life is greater than its parts, or even their sum. The tao furthers all things but does not take credit. What credit is there in being what you are? Where all is One, there is no individual merit.

   The question of whether the humankind experiment has been "good" for life or not is perhaps not looking so good for our side. I'd like to think we can turn it round, in the spirit of pascal's wager.

   Oceanic non-rational consciousness can only be known non-rationally, that is, non-conceptually. Thus, we can have no rational concept of any of this. Wilber rushes in where f & j feared to tread. 

   I assure you wiber's fallacy is not as highly spiritual as it is cracked up to be. Writers write, and critics criticize. I don't think there are any distinctions to be made between pre- and post-rationality and rationality itself. Another case of the sword of discrimination being asked to commit the "fallacy" of cutting itself. Trying to measure the ocean with a cup is wilber's vocation. (I suppose that makes me a critic as well as a writer.) Hafiz said, "O thou who would try to learn the marvel of love from the copybook of reason, I am very much afraid you will never really see the point."


  Now, as for evolving into enlightened animals, this statement was meant in two ways. Firstly, we err in imagining we have evolved into "real people" when we are actually animals whose collective behavior is hardly rational. Everybody poops, as the children's book says. I'm sure monkeys look into each others eyes and detect great pathos there. Horses rub each others necks in affection. Elephants impart wisdom to their offspring. And dogs lick your face to get you to regurgitate food. Ethologists can tell you there is little we do that is not found in the animal world, often done better. Secondly, we have a long ways to go in the evolving line. Or at least we had better hope so.

   I'd like to point out that wherever animals have truly never encountered men before they are generally described as trusting and friendly. I'd like to think that humans are naturally trusting and friendly as well. It is hard to compare animals with humans, as the animals we are most familiar with besides ourselves are highly bred. Dogs and horses have been bred for millennia to be beautiful, spirited, brave, loyal and dependable; and so they are. Men not so much. You would think we would value animals more. Perhaps when we are more highly evolved.

terry



Fleas, lice,
The horse pissing
Near my pillow

issa

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/8/19 7:40 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
HI Terry,

 I found some writing from this site about what I mean, where the contention of the awakened is, sometimes, that they don't think any more.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+The+Thought+Models


But he recognises that there may still be something more to the idea of thoughtless action.

"This is just an aside, but there appear to be a few people who have done something very interesting to their thoughts, and the likes of Gary Weber claim that they only arise when they are needed and otherwise they don't think in any way, and, if I understand this correctly, at least Gary
considers this to be the core condition for awakening."

Which is a way of experiencing life that sounds significantly different to Daniel's. I started out on a contemplative path following someone with a similar view on reduced thought, and it's much harder, conceptually, to be faced with.

On the other hand I find, tentatively, that there is something coming across from people who seem to have super quiet minds, a basic sense of stillness which I appreciate but is somewhat ephemeral.


ta

aloha,

   Went through the lengthy ramble on how one can think one does not think. The cartesian subjectivity in this case comes out: "He thinks therefore he thinks" which is a tautology. And fallacious. Just because someone speaks we cannot know that they thought. Consider a parrot, for example, saying "erin go bragh." I myself have heard birds speak knowingly in english, but they can merely parrot phrases as well.

   Suppose an enlightened saint has a mind that is "gone, gone, all the way gone" but yet occasionally speaks, perhaps something wise and profound. Does the saint think as well, or just say words without any mental representation?

   Hey, I don't think about what I write, or speak for that matter. It comes out just - like - this and I rarely edit or correct. If I think about what I am saying, I am not aware of it.

   I don't claim I never think. I would not sssume someone who claims they don't think is necessarily deluded, though. On the other hand, so what? If we are to judge, it would be more on the basis of other characteristics of saintliness, such as relief of suffering, or general harmony. Not on claims of models achieved and goals met.

   Dan said:

(quote)
People might fail to achieve results but be scripted to report or believe that they had achieved something in line with their own working model. This is a common occurrence, one that I have observed in myself more times than I can count and also in the practice of many other fellow dharma adventurers. Bill would often mention people's ability to self hypnotize into semi-fixed states of delusion. He had a long run of hanging out in scary cult-like situations with psychopathic teachers and got to observe this first-hand in himself and others: see his book Saints and Psychopaths for more on this.
(unquote)

   This is the heart of the matter. The fundamental problem is the desire for achievement, and the near universal tendency of aspirants to imagine success. If one must recognize oneself, one has already split into pieces and lost one's wholeness. The desire for recognition is proof that one has not achieved. And without the desire for recognition, achievement is not pursued or valued. One may in fact pursue non-achievement, along with non-thought. Wu wei. It is actually irrational to imagine one can come to some sort of "permanent" state. Think about it.


terry




from lin yutang, the wisdom of lao tse, quoting the tao te ching:



24. THE DREGS AND TUMORS OF VIRTUE

He who stands on tiptoe does not stand (firm); 
He who strains his strides does not walk (well); 
He who reveals himself is not luminous; 
He who justifies himself is not far-famed; 
He who boasts of himself is not given credit; 
He who prides himself is not chief among men.

These in the eyes of Tao 
Are called "the dregs and tumors of Virtue," 
Which are things of disgust. 
Therefore the man of Tao spurns them.


   

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/9/19 8:05 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Stickman2:
[quote=]


Well, I think this is where I read up WIlber's pre/trans fallacy. Which sounds like it's about chicks with dicks, but I'm assured it's highly spiritual.



   I've probably already made too much of this, but wilber sometimes sets me off. Making a big fallacy out of a simple distinction and criticizing great pioneering thinkers. But at issue was the difference between an empty mind which is mindless and an empty mind which is mindful. What wilber called "pre-rational" oceanic consciousness and "post-rational" oceanic consciousness.

   Rumi said:

"Don’t think all ecstasies
are the same!

Jesus was lost in his love for God.
His donkey was drunk on barley."

  Perhaps joshu was thinking along these lines when he denied that a dog had buddha nature. Yet dogs do, of course, have buddha nature. Animals do participate consciously in the tao. They eat when tired and sleep when hungry. They don't mind being ordinary; they don't mind not knowing everything. A donkey is a domestic animal, tamed, bred to be docile and tolerant. Wilder animals may have more refined tastes.

terry



from "rumi, the book of love" trans barks


THE MANY WINES

God has given us a dark wine so potent that,
drinking it, we leave the two worlds.

God has put into the form of hashish
a power to deliver the taster from self-consciousness.

God has made sleep
so that it erases every thought.

God made Majnun love Layla so much
that just her dog would cause confusion in him.

There are thousands of wines
that can take over our minds.

Don’t think all ecstasies
are the same!

Jesus was lost in his love for God.
His donkey was drunk on barley.

Drink from the presence of saints,
not from those other jars.

Every object, every being,
is a jar full of delight.

Be a connoisseur,
and taste with caution.

Any wine will get you high.
Judge like a king, and choose the purest,

the ones unadulterated with fear,
or some urgency about “what’s needed.”

Drink the wine that moves you
as a camel moves when it’s been untied,
and is just ambling about.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/24/19 4:00 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:

snip

   Dan said:

(quote)
People might fail to achieve results but be scripted to report or believe that they had achieved something in line with their own working model. This is a common occurrence, one that I have observed in myself more times than I can count and also in the practice of many other fellow dharma adventurers. Bill would often mention people's ability to self hypnotize into semi-fixed states of delusion. He had a long run of hanging out in scary cult-like situations with psychopathic teachers and got to observe this first-hand in himself and others: see his book Saints and Psychopaths for more on this.
(unquote)

   This is the heart of the matter. The fundamental problem is the desire for achievement, and the near universal tendency of aspirants to imagine success. If one must recognize oneself, one has already split into pieces and lost one's wholeness. The desire for recognition is proof that one has not achieved. And without the desire for recognition, achievement is not pursued or valued. One may in fact pursue non-achievement, along with non-thought. Wu wei. It is actually irrational to imagine one can come to some sort of "permanent" state. Think about it.


terry


   

   I was thinking about this again. The essential item comes down to, "I have observed this in myself...". The nature of prajna, of ultimate insight, nirvana, enlightenment, is non-dual. Non-dual insight heals the split in the soul of the sentient being. The soul then disappears, the created being dissolves into the creator. The trivial self which observes judges and punishes the trivial self it observes, which never really measures up to its trivial standards. Progress, whether steady or intermittent, never reaches any final goal. The sense of progress only pushes the goal away. Goal implies effort, and effort implies dissatisfaction. Dukkha cannot be escaped, only accepted. Once accepted, once we are satisfied with dukkha, it is no longer unsatisfactory.

terry





'The Puzzle'

Someone who keeps aloof from suffering
is not a lover. I choose your love
above all else. As for wealth
if that comes, or goes, so be it.
Wealth and love inhabit separate worlds.

But as long as you live here inside me,
I cannot say that I am suffering. 

      Sanai, translation by Coleman Barks - 'Persian Poems' 





Whatever share of this world
You could give to me,
Give it to Your enemies;
Whatever share of the next world 
You want to give to me,
Give it to Your friends.
You are enough for me.


     Rabi´a al-Adawiyya, translation by Andrew Harvey and Eryk Hanut - 'Perfume of the Desert' 





Longing itself brings the cure.
The only rule is, Suffer the pain.

Your desire must be disciplined,
and what you want to happen
in time, sacrificed.

      Rumi - The Essential Rumi - Coleman Barks





In love, nothing exists between heart and heart.
Speech is born out of longing,
True description from the real taste.
The one who tastes, knows;
the one who explains, lies.
How can you describe the true form of Something
In whose presence you are blotted out?
And in whose being you still exist?
And who lives as a sign for your journey? 

     Rabia al-Adawiyya





'Pursuit of the Friend'

The heart left,
       and the Friend is (also) gone.
I don't know whether I should go after the Friend
       or after the heart!
A voice spoke to me:
       "Go in pursuit of the Friend,
          because the lover needs a heart
          in order to find union with the Friend.
       If there was no Friend,
          what would (the lover) do with (his) heart?"

     Sheikh Ansari - Kashf al_Asrar, Vol. 1, p. 628 - 'Maqulat-o Andarz-ha - Sayings and Advice' - A.G. Farhadi





'One Light'

What are "I" and "You"?
Just lattices
In the niches of a lamp
Through which the One Light radiates.

"I" and "You" are the veil
Between heaven and earth;
Lift this veil and you will see 
How all sects and religions are one.

Lift this veil and you will ask---
When "I" and "You" do not exist
What is mosque?
What is synagogue?
What is fire temple?

      Mahmud Shabistari, translation by Andrew Harvey and Eryk Hanut - 'Perfume of the Desert' 





O bird of the morning, learn love from the moth
Because it burnt, lost its life, and found no voice.
These pretenders are ignorantly in search of Him,
Because he who obtained knowledge has not returned.

      Sheikh Muslih-uddin Sa'di Shirazi - The Gulistan of Sadi





Until you become an unbeliever in your own self,
you cannot become a believer in God.

    Shaikh Abu-Saeed Abil-Kheir - 'Nobody, Son of Nobody' - Vraje Abramian





Be humble.
Only fools take pride in their station here, trapped in
a cage of dust, moisture, heat and air.
No need to complain of calamities,
this illusion of a life lasts but a moment.

     Shaikh Abu Saeed Abil Kheir - "Nobody, Son of Nobody" - Vraje Abramian





Drink from this heart now,
for all this loving it contains.
When you look for it again,
it will be dancing in the wind.

     Shaikh Abu Saeed Abil Kheir - "Nobody, Son of Nobody" - Vraje Abramian





Let sorrowful longing dwell in your heart,
never give up, never losing hope.
The Beloved says, "The broken ones are My darlings."
Crush your heart, be broken.

     Shaikh Abu Saeed Abil Kheir - "Nobody, Son of Nobody" - Vraje Abramian





If you do not give up the crowds
you won't find your way to Oneness.
If you do not drop your self
you won't find your true worth.
If you do not offer all you 
have to the Beloved,
you will live this life free of that
pain which makes it worth living.

     Shaikh Abu Saeed Abil Kheir - "Nobody, Son of Nobody" - Vraje Abramian





The Lord is an ocean of oneness
in which lovers swim as they please, free of care.
In their own turn, they appear in the world
to dive deep into that ocean, to gather pearls.
Among the pearls is a gem --
unique in value, unmatched in lustre -- 
that shines like the moon.
We are all in the employ of the Lord, O Bahu;
let us pay homage to him through our prayers.

     Sultan Bahu, translated by J.R. Puri and K.S. Khak




All that is left
to us by tradition 
is mere words.

It is up to us 
to find out what they mean.

     ibn al-`Arabi, Tarjuman al-Ashwaq, in The Mystics of Islam, translated by Reynold A Nicholson

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/24/19 4:07 PM as a reply to terry.
That's nice Terry, but let's return to circadian rhythms for a bit and see if there's anything useful in them ?

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/24/19 5:30 PM as a reply to terry.
   Taking this a step further, "I have observed this in myself" is not merely a split between observing self and observed self, but involves yet another level of observation, the self who observed that it has observed itself. This involves us in an infinite regress, a house of mirrors in which the image of the self is replicated to apparent infinity: me watching me watching me dot dot dot. Endless reflections of infinite selves.

   Whatever you think about grows in importance. Attention proliferates, which is why it is such a burden if not handled carefully.

terry




Keep Your Feet Muddy


When you hear dirty story

wash your ears.

When you see ugly stuff

wash your eyes.

When you get bad thoughts

wash your mind.
and

Keep your feet muddy.


—Nanao Sakaki

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/24/19 5:33 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
That's nice Terry, but let's return to circadian rhythms for a bit and see if there's anything useful in them ?


turn this plane around, we're going to cuba...

I suppose circadian rhythms affect jet lag...

(wink)

t

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/25/19 8:28 AM as a reply to terry.
Tery I think you could curate a cracking anthology of verse. Or maybe have a forum devoted to devotional literature.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/26/19 11:35 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Tery I think you could curate a cracking anthology of verse. Or maybe have a forum devoted to devotional literature.


noted...

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
4/26/19 12:27 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
the following from the discourses of rumi, fihi ma fihi, trans arberry


An elephant was led to a well to drink. Seeing itself in the water, it thought it was shying away from another elephant. It did not realize it was shying away from its own self.
 p41



Every line of poetry the saints and prophets bring forth, every tradition, every verse they write, is like a witness bearing testimony. They bear witness to every situation according to the nature of the situation. In the same way we have two witnesses at the inheritance of a house, two witnesses at the sale of a shop, two witnesses at a marriage. So too, the saints bear witness. The inner form of their testimony is always the same; it is the outer meaning that differs. I pray that God may cause these words to bear witness to God and you alike.

p62-63



I care to such a degree that when such friends come to me, I dread the thought of boring them, so I speak poetry for their enjoyment. Otherwise, what do I care about poetry? By God, I care nothing for poetry. There is nothing worse in my eyes. To me, it is like the cook who plunges his hand into tripe, cleaning it out for the sake of a guest’s appetite.

A merchant searches to see what products are needed in their city, and what the people want to buy. Then they buy and sell those goods and services, even if they are the lowest of things in their eyes. I have studied many sciences and taken pains to offer fine, rare and precious things to the scholars and researchers, the clever ones and the deep thinkers who come to me. God has willed this. He gathered to me all those sciences, and assembled here all those pains, so I would become occupied with this work. What can I do? In my own country, and amongst my own people, there is nothing more shameful than poetry. If I had remained there, I would have lived in harmony with their temperament. I would have practiced what they love, such as giving lectures, composing books and preaching.

The Amir said: “The root of the matter is action.”

Rumi said: Where are such people of action, so that I can teach them action? But now look how you cock your ears, seeking after words instead of action. If I were to stop speaking now, you would become upset. Become a seeker of action, so that I can show you action!

I am looking all over the world for students of action so that I can teach action. I am looking all over the world for anyone who knows action, but I find no student of action—only of words, and so I occupy myself with words. What do you know of action? Action is only known through action. There is not one traveler upon this road—it is empty—so how will anyone see if we are on the true path of action?

After all, prayer and fasting are not action; these are forms of action. Action is an inward reality. From the time of Adam to the time of Mohammed, prayer and fasting have changed their form, but action is still the same.

Action is not what people think it is. People believe action is this outward show. But if a hypocrite performs only the form of action, such as prayer or fasting, it gains them nothing, since the sincere desire for true action was not present.

The secret principle of all things is speech and words. You do not yet know the true knowledge of speech and words, therefore you consider them unimportant. However, speech is fruit from the tree of action, for words are born of action. God created the world by a word.

You may have faith in your heart, but unless you share it through words, it is worth nothing. When you say, “In this present age words are of no account,” you say this with words, do you not? If words are of no account, then why do we hear you say this with words?


pp 132-135