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Science and Meditation

Circadian rhythms

Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/24/19 8:33 PM
Lots of processes in the body and mind have circadian cycles.
Does this have a bearing on "cycling" ?
Does it have a bearing on the timing of breakthroughs in the progress of insight ?

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 4:15 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
I am interested in this question too, as have noticed insight cycles syncing up with biological cycles and rhythms. I am not a doctor, but according to google, we have 4 known types of biological rhythyms:
  • circadian rhythms: the 24-hour cycle that includes physiological and behavioral rhythms like sleeping
  • diurnal rhythms: the circadian rhythm synced with day and night
  • ultradian rhythms: biological rhythms with a shorter period and higher frequency than circadian rhythms
  • infradian rhythms: biological rhythms that last more than 24 hours, such as a menstrual cycle
It seems that if you look carefully enough, you can find (insight?) cycles in everything in nature, including us. Perhaps when we notice fractals of cycles we are noticing these very cycles? 

As for how the timing works ... I am not sure! Great question though. 

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 4:44 PM as a reply to Anna L.
Interesting thoughts! I have been pondering the relation between stages and pms as well as between stages and sleep deprivation. The idea of everything having their own insight cycles makes sense to me. I believe it may explain a lot.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 5:00 PM as a reply to Anna L.
Hormones like noradrenaline, cortisol, testosterone, aoestrogen, melatonin; neurotransmitters like endocannabinoids, serotonin.

The chemicals of bliss, attention, desire and suffering all have daily rhythms.


RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 5:53 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
 There are different chronotypes, which means some people are early risers, some are late. So not everybody's rhythm is in sync. This seems to be a genetic predisposition. This means that in the typical 9-5 work schedule, some people will have had enough sleep and some people won't.
  I expect this also means the same for retreats with early morning starts, and maybe some people don't get enough REM sleep, which could have implications for psychosis and dark night etc.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 6:11 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Now that would be an interesting research topic.

I guess it also depends on the quality of the meditation sessions. I would guess that at some stages and in some states the meditation fulfills more of one’s need for rest than in others.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 7:21 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Lots of processes in the body and mind have circadian cycles.
Does this have a bearing on "cycling" ?
Does it have a bearing on the timing of breakthroughs in the progress of insight ?


(the following story is generally attributed to bankei)



Eat When You're Hungry


Someone asked a Zen Master, "How do you practice Zen?"

The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

"Isn't that what everyone does anyway?"

The master replied, "No, No. Most people entertains a thousand desires when they eat and scheme over a thousand plans when they sleep."

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 7:25 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Hormones like noradrenaline, cortisol, testosterone, aoestrogen, melatonin; neurotransmitters like endocannabinoids, serotonin.

The chemicals of bliss, attention, desire and suffering all have daily rhythms.


endocannabinoids, huh! where can I get some of those?

t

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 8:34 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Interesting thoughts! I have been pondering the relation between stages and pms as well as between stages and sleep deprivation. The idea of everything having their own insight cycles makes sense to me. I believe it may explain a lot.

As someone who has PMDD, I have definitely recognised that my monthly menstrual cycle aligns with the stages of insight! emoticon

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 8:35 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Stickman2:
Lots of processes in the body and mind have circadian cycles.
Does this have a bearing on "cycling" ?
Does it have a bearing on the timing of breakthroughs in the progress of insight ?


(the following story is generally attributed to bankei)



Eat When You're Hungry


Someone asked a Zen Master, "How do you practice Zen?"

The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

"Isn't that what everyone does anyway?"

The master replied, "No, No. Most people entertains a thousand desires when they eat and scheme over a thousand plans when they sleep."

 emoticon

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/25/19 8:36 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
 There are different chronotypes, which means some people are early risers, some are late. So not everybody's rhythm is in sync. This seems to be a genetic predisposition. This means that in the typical 9-5 work schedule, some people will have had enough sleep and some people won't.
  I expect this also means the same for retreats with early morning starts, and maybe some people don't get enough REM sleep, which could have implications for psychosis and dark night etc.


Good point. So many individual factors to consider. 

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/26/19 6:04 AM as a reply to terry.

endocannabinoids, huh! where can I get some of those?

t
From the pharmacy of Terry.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/26/19 9:36 AM as a reply to Anna L.
Anna L:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Interesting thoughts! I have been pondering the relation between stages and pms as well as between stages and sleep deprivation. The idea of everything having their own insight cycles makes sense to me. I believe it may explain a lot.

As someone who has PMDD, I have definitely recognised that my monthly menstrual cycle aligns with the stages of insight! emoticon



I have PMDD too! This is almost getting creepy, huh. We should talk health and meditation, you and me.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/26/19 2:52 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:

endocannabinoids, huh! where can I get some of those?

t
From the pharmacy of Terry.
no doubt have choke already...
(smile)

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/26/19 5:28 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Anna L:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Interesting thoughts! I have been pondering the relation between stages and pms as well as between stages and sleep deprivation. The idea of everything having their own insight cycles makes sense to me. I believe it may explain a lot.

As someone who has PMDD, I have definitely recognised that my monthly menstrual cycle aligns with the stages of insight! emoticon



I have PMDD too! This is almost getting creepy, huh. We should talk health and meditation, you and me.
I suspected you might because I think you are my Swedish twin! emoticon Yes, send me a PM and I will send you my email address.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/27/19 3:08 PM as a reply to Anna L.
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

Except when you get the stick for nodding off. Or the master wants you up before dawn. etc.

Ha, I've heard this saying for decades and only just realised how unrealistic it is. Only musicians and artists get to sleep when they want, even the homeless have to vacate the shop doorway by 8:30.

OK I suppose it's "when getting whacked, just get whacked."

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/27/19 4:43 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

Except when you get the stick for nodding off. Or the master wants you up before dawn. etc.

Ha, I've heard this saying for decades and only just realised how unrealistic it is. Only musicians and artists get to sleep when they want, even the homeless have to vacate the shop doorway by 8:30.

OK I suppose it's "when getting whacked, just get whacked."


another, similar quote; probably bankei's original source for what is a common zen idea...

In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired go and lie down. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will understand.
RINZAI

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/27/19 5:34 PM as a reply to terry.
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

This isn't meant to be taken literally. It's describing the Zen ideal (awakening) that excludes all the extra "stuff" human beings add to their experience. It's akin to Jack Kornfield saying, "After the ecstasy, the laundry."

It's pretty much the same thing terry said.

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/28/19 6:38 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The master said, "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep."

This isn't meant to be taken literally. It's describing the Zen ideal (awakening) that excludes all the extra "stuff" human beings add to their experience. It's akin to Jack Kornfield saying, "After the ecstasy, the laundry."

It's pretty much the same thing terry said.
Masters need to make themselves clear. How about "I'm telling you to do everything with a completely still mind, but I know that's impossible for you until you awaken, which might never happen, so don't take it as an injunction and keep your fingers crossed. But as well as a zen master I'm a circadian rhythms expert, so I can tell you that you're more likely to be daydreaming as you make your fire at around 2 in the afternoon, and you shouldn't try going to bed before 11 or you'll be laying there thinking about sex and video games for an hour."

RE: Circadian rhythms
Answer
3/28/19 6:48 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
Masters need to make themselves clear.

My guess is most of them probably think they are making themselves clear.