Message Boards Message Boards

Miscellaneous

Rebirth, Time, Insight, Past Lives

Toggle
Rebirth, Time, Insight, Past Lives
Answer
5/12/19 11:11 AM
I split this off from the previously long, not entirely helpful thread.
Jinxed P:
Daniel M. Ingram:


Regarding rebirth, it is a paradox created by a illusion of there being a stable, continuous, coherent, independent self, as well as the illusion of there actually being a future and a past, as well as the illusion of there being any truly existing thing or even realm to be born into. There are levels of insight that see through this illusion to various degrees.

Daniel

Care to expand on this one, that past and future are an illusion and how one might realize that through meditating versus say, studying Quantum physics (I do know that there are some physics theories that report this finding, but I don't know if you mean the same thing as them)?

Like what do you mean by that exactly? For example, do you not believe dinosaurs lived in the past? Or if there is no future, what happens tomorrow? I assume you mean something more esoteric...

From an insight point of view, which is the frame of that quote, this moment is totally transient, the past is gone and not stored somewhere, not a stable thing, never was a stable thing, and the future hasn't yet arisen, and, when it does, will also be utterly transient, totally ephemeral, and will not "be", but instead will very briefly occur.

This is straightforward in experience, but yet, due to the way the mind believes thoughts of "past" and "future" that occur now, we can believe that there is still a past that exists, still a future that will exist, and still a present that also exists. The word "exist" is used rather than "occurs" to point out the pernicious nature of our sense of permanence, as "exist" implies permanence, whereas "occur" doesn't in the same way.

I do believe that the dinosaurs occurred, I don't believe they or anything else ever stably "existed" from an insight point of view, and the philosophical frame of that quote is in that sense, in the insight practice sense. This may seem to be splitting hairs terminologically, but it is done as it points to something incredibly important experientially that can be realized by insight practices and those practices that support them. 

When one trains such that the experiential truth of this moment becomes realized, woken up to, fully appreciated, and all thoughts of "past" just occur transiently now, and all thoughts of a "future" just occur transiently now, and this moment is also utterly transient now and doesn't withstand scrutiny for an instant, then one realizes something directly, right here, right now, for one's self that cuts through a lot of the problems with questions around rebirth, as well as providing the other immediate, powerful, direct benefits that occur with this level of insight.

That said, one may also, now shifting to a very relative frame and away from the strict insight frame, have experiences of past lives, and even prognostications of future lives, and learn something very powerful about karma and the workings of karma by doing so. Such experiences are also of value psychologically, philosophically, ethically, paradigmatically, and in other ways that are hard to explain.

I have found such experiences to have a feel that I will describe as "very validating". One can still feel this validation deeply and gain useful insights into karma even if one doesn't fixate on a firm ontology such as, "Past lives truly exist! Future lives truly exist!", and, in fact, not fixating that way is highly recommended.

One can adopt an open, broad attitude that allows these initially seemingly contradictory paradigms to both be valid within their scopes, to learn from both types of experiences, and to grow thereby.

Those who try to pit these two valuable paradigms against each other just shoot themselves and potentially others in their metaphorical feet.

Those who train well and learn both will know their value directly for themselves and can then share this with others.

RE: Rebirth, Time, Insight, Past Lives
Answer
5/12/19 8:38 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
... time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live. 

- Albert Einstein



RE: Rebirth, Time, Insight, Past Lives
Answer
5/12/19 12:45 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live. 

- Albert Einstein


String theory has at least 10 dimensions. Wonder what we do in the other six while we're messing round in the four vanilla ones ?

Come to that, modern physics gives us multiple universes, kind of expands on the old bardos and afterlife stuff. Not only have you got to see through the illusion of a reincarnating self, you have to do it in all the other universes too!

RE: Rebirth, Time, Insight, Past Lives
Answer
5/13/19 2:38 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

From an insight point of view, which is the frame of that quote, this moment is totally transient, the past is gone and not stored somewhere, not a stable thing, never was a stable thing, and the future hasn't yet arisen, and, when it does, will also be utterly transient, totally ephemeral, and will not "be", but instead will very briefly occur.

This is straightforward in experience, but yet, due to the way the mind believes thoughts of "past" and "future" that occur now, we can believe that there is still a past that exists, still a future that will exist, and still a present that also exists. The word "exist" is used rather than "occurs" to point out the pernicious nature of our sense of permanence, as "exist" implies permanence, whereas "occur" doesn't in the same way.

I do believe that the dinosaurs occurred, I don't believe they or anything else ever stably "existed" from an insight point of view, and the philosophical frame of that quote is in that sense, in the insight practice sense. This may seem to be splitting hairs terminologically, but it is done as it points to something incredibly important experientially that can be realized by insight practices and those practices that support them. 

When one trains such that the experiential truth of this moment becomes realized, woken up to, fully appreciated, and all thoughts of "past" just occur transiently now, and all thoughts of a "future" just occur transiently now, and this moment is also utterly transient now and doesn't withstand scrutiny for an instant, then one realizes something directly, right here, right now, for one's self that cuts through a lot of the problems with questions around rebirth, as well as providing the other immediate, powerful, direct benefits that occur with this level of insight.

That said, one may also, now shifting to a very relative frame and away from the strict insight frame, have experiences of past lives, and even prognostications of future lives, and learn something very powerful about karma and the workings of karma by doing so. Such experiences are also of value psychologically, philosophically, ethically, paradigmatically, and in other ways that are hard to explain.

I have found such experiences to have a feel that I will describe as "very validating". One can still feel this validation deeply and gain useful insights into karma even if one doesn't fixate on a firm ontology such as, "Past lives truly exist! Future lives truly exist!", and, in fact, not fixating that way is highly recommended.


One can adopt an open, broad attitude that allows these initially seemingly contradictory paradigms to both be valid within their scopes, to learn from both types of experiences, and to grow thereby.

Those who try to pit these two valuable paradigms against each other just shoot themselves and potentially others in their metaphorical feet.

Those who train well and learn both will know their value directly for themselves and can then share this with others.


Thank you Daniel for taking the time to write this down. I added some extra emphasis on the points that I found extremely well put.  What you wrote here makes perfect sense for me, and I don't just mean intellectually. This is how I experience things and struggle to explain. Here's to hoping I can better communicate this stuff to others! Keep on practicing, everyone emoticon

RE: Rebirth, Time, Insight, Past Lives
Answer
5/15/19 1:54 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
I split this off from the previously long, not entirely helpful thread.
Jinxed P:
Daniel M. Ingram:


Regarding rebirth, it is a paradox created by a illusion of there being a stable, continuous, coherent, independent self, as well as the illusion of there actually being a future and a past, as well as the illusion of there being any truly existing thing or even realm to be born into. There are levels of insight that see through this illusion to various degrees.

Daniel

Care to expand on this one, that past and future are an illusion and how one might realize that through meditating versus say, studying Quantum physics (I do know that there are some physics theories that report this finding, but I don't know if you mean the same thing as them)?

Like what do you mean by that exactly? For example, do you not believe dinosaurs lived in the past? Or if there is no future, what happens tomorrow? I assume you mean something more esoteric...

From an insight point of view, which is the frame of that quote, this moment is totally transient, the past is gone and not stored somewhere, not a stable thing, never was a stable thing, and the future hasn't yet arisen, and, when it does, will also be utterly transient, totally ephemeral, and will not "be", but instead will very briefly occur.

This is straightforward in experience, but yet, due to the way the mind believes thoughts of "past" and "future" that occur now, we can believe that there is still a past that exists, still a future that will exist, and still a present that also exists. The word "exist" is used rather than "occurs" to point out the pernicious nature of our sense of permanence, as "exist" implies permanence, whereas "occur" doesn't in the same way.

I do believe that the dinosaurs occurred, I don't believe they or anything else ever stably "existed" from an insight point of view, and the philosophical frame of that quote is in that sense, in the insight practice sense. This may seem to be splitting hairs terminologically, but it is done as it points to something incredibly important experientially that can be realized by insight practices and those practices that support them. 

When one trains such that the experiential truth of this moment becomes realized, woken up to, fully appreciated, and all thoughts of "past" just occur transiently now, and all thoughts of a "future" just occur transiently now, and this moment is also utterly transient now and doesn't withstand scrutiny for an instant, then one realizes something directly, right here, right now, for one's self that cuts through a lot of the problems with questions around rebirth, as well as providing the other immediate, powerful, direct benefits that occur with this level of insight.

That said, one may also, now shifting to a very relative frame and away from the strict insight frame, have experiences of past lives, and even prognostications of future lives, and learn something very powerful about karma and the workings of karma by doing so. Such experiences are also of value psychologically, philosophically, ethically, paradigmatically, and in other ways that are hard to explain.

I have found such experiences to have a feel that I will describe as "very validating". One can still feel this validation deeply and gain useful insights into karma even if one doesn't fixate on a firm ontology such as, "Past lives truly exist! Future lives truly exist!", and, in fact, not fixating that way is highly recommended.

One can adopt an open, broad attitude that allows these initially seemingly contradictory paradigms to both be valid within their scopes, to learn from both types of experiences, and to grow thereby.

Those who try to pit these two valuable paradigms against each other just shoot themselves and potentially others in their metaphorical feet.

Those who train well and learn both will know their value directly for themselves and can then share this with others.


aloha dan,

Beliefs are comforting, particularly for those who want "validation." What is validated? "Truthiness"?

Interesting metaphor, paradigms as bullets. Taking one side of anything - holding an opinion - can be dangerous to oneself and others. Since one speaks from within a paradigm, I'm not sure one may hold different paradigms at the same time. Let alone pit them against each other. Transcendence can be regarded as a "copernican revolution" (kant). Leaping from the earth-centered paradigm to the sun-centered paradigm may be seen in relation to leaping from the ego-centered paradigm to the god-centered paradigm. Can one pit god against the ego? Who would win? Is being vanquished by god really a loss?

terry


   The following excerpt from jiddu krishnamurti and david bohm's "the ending of time" may be of use:


1ST APRIL 1980 CONVERSATION, JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI AND PROF. DAVID BOHM 'THE ROOTS OF PSYCHOLOGICAL CONFLICT'


K: May I talk about myself a little bit?

DB: Yes.

K: First about meditation. All conscious meditation is no meditation - right?

DB: What do you mean by conscious meditation?

K: Deliberate, practised meditation, which is really premeditated meditation. Is there a meditation which is not premeditated - which is not the ego trying to become something - or being able to negate?

DB: Before we go ahead, could we suggest what meditation should be. Is it an observation of the mind observing?

K: No. It has gone beyond all that. I am using the word meditation in the sense in which there is not a particle of any sense of trying consciously to become, to reach a level.

DB: The mind is simply with itself, silent.

K: That is what I want to get at.

DB: Not looking for anything.

K: You see, I don't meditate in the normal sense of the word. What happens is that I wake up meditating.

DB: In that state?

K: One night in India I woke up; it was a quarter past twelve, I looked at the watch. And - I hesitate to say this because it sounds extravagant - the source of all energy had been reached. And that had an extraordinary effect on the brain. And also physically. I'm sorry to talk about myself but, you understand, literally, there was no division at all; no sense of the world, of `me'. You follow? Only this sense of a tremendous source of energy

DB: So the brain was in contact with this source of energy?

K: Yes, and as I have been talking for sixty years, I would like others to reach this - no, not reach it. You understand what I am saying? All our problems are solved. Because it is pure energy from the very beginning of time. Now how am I - not `I', you understand - how is one not to teach, not to help, or push - but how is one to say, `This way leads to a complete sense of peace, of love'? I am sorry to use all these words. But suppose you have come to that point and your brain itself is throbbing with it - how would you help another? You understand? Help - not words. How would you help another to come to that? You understand what I am trying to say?

DB: Yes.

K: My brain - but not mine - has evolved. Evolution implies time, and it can only think, live in time. Now for the brain to deny time is a tremendous activity, for any problem that arises, any question is immediately solved.

DB: Is this situation sustained or is it only for a period?

K: It is sustained, obviously, otherwise there is no point in it. It is not sporadic or intermittent. Now how are you to open the door, how are you to help another to say,`Look, we have been going in the wrong direction, there is only non-movement; and, if movement stops, everything will be correct'?

DB: Well, it is hard to know beforehand if everything is going to be correct.

K: Let's go back to what we began with. That is, has mankind taken a wrong turn, psychologically, not physically? Can that turn be completely reversed? Or stopped? My brain is so accustomed to this evolutionary idea that I will become something, I will gain something, that I must have more knowledge and so on; can that brain suddenly realize that there is no such thing as time? You understand what I am trying to say?

DB: Yes.

RE: Rebirth, Time, Insight, Past Lives
Answer
5/16/19 2:29 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
I split this off from the previously long, not entirely helpful thread.
Jinxed P:
Daniel M. Ingram:


Regarding rebirth, it is a paradox created by a illusion of there being a stable, continuous, coherent, independent self, as well as the illusion of there actually being a future and a past, as well as the illusion of there being any truly existing thing or even realm to be born into. There are levels of insight that see through this illusion to various degrees.

Daniel

Care to expand on this one, that past and future are an illusion and how one might realize that through meditating versus say, studying Quantum physics (I do know that there are some physics theories that report this finding, but I don't know if you mean the same thing as them)?

Like what do you mean by that exactly? For example, do you not believe dinosaurs lived in the past? Or if there is no future, what happens tomorrow? I assume you mean something more esoteric...

From an insight point of view, which is the frame of that quote, this moment is totally transient, the past is gone and not stored somewhere, not a stable thing, never was a stable thing, and the future hasn't yet arisen, and, when it does, will also be utterly transient, totally ephemeral, and will not "be", but instead will very briefly occur.

This is straightforward in experience, but yet, due to the way the mind believes thoughts of "past" and "future" that occur now, we can believe that there is still a past that exists, still a future that will exist, and still a present that also exists. The word "exist" is used rather than "occurs" to point out the pernicious nature of our sense of permanence, as "exist" implies permanence, whereas "occur" doesn't in the same way.

I do believe that the dinosaurs occurred, I don't believe they or anything else ever stably "existed" from an insight point of view, and the philosophical frame of that quote is in that sense, in the insight practice sense. This may seem to be splitting hairs terminologically, but it is done as it points to something incredibly important experientially that can be realized by insight practices and those practices that support them. 

When one trains such that the experiential truth of this moment becomes realized, woken up to, fully appreciated, and all thoughts of "past" just occur transiently now, and all thoughts of a "future" just occur transiently now, and this moment is also utterly transient now and doesn't withstand scrutiny for an instant, then one realizes something directly, right here, right now, for one's self that cuts through a lot of the problems with questions around rebirth, as well as providing the other immediate, powerful, direct benefits that occur with this level of insight.

That said, one may also, now shifting to a very relative frame and away from the strict insight frame, have experiences of past lives, and even prognostications of future lives, and learn something very powerful about karma and the workings of karma by doing so. Such experiences are also of value psychologically, philosophically, ethically, paradigmatically, and in other ways that are hard to explain.

I have found such experiences to have a feel that I will describe as "very validating". One can still feel this validation deeply and gain useful insights into karma even if one doesn't fixate on a firm ontology such as, "Past lives truly exist! Future lives truly exist!", and, in fact, not fixating that way is highly recommended.

One can adopt an open, broad attitude that allows these initially seemingly contradictory paradigms to both be valid within their scopes, to learn from both types of experiences, and to grow thereby.

Those who try to pit these two valuable paradigms against each other just shoot themselves and potentially others in their metaphorical feet.

Those who train well and learn both will know their value directly for themselves and can then share this with others.

Hey Daniel, thank you for putting this so well!! 

I wonder if you could share some of these experiences that you call "very validating". 
emoticon

RE: Rebirth, Time, Insight, Past Lives
Answer
5/18/19 6:31 PM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Chris Marti:
... time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live. 

- Albert Einstein


String theory has at least 10 dimensions. Wonder what we do in the other six while we're messing round in the four vanilla ones ?

Come to that, modern physics gives us multiple universes, kind of expands on the old bardos and afterlife stuff. Not only have you got to see through the illusion of a reincarnating self, you have to do it in all the other universes too!

I likely speak way too soon there.