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the day ego came.
Answer
6/5/19 4:19 AM
Does anybody remember when your ego came? How old were you at the time?

I think I must have been ca 4 years old. That is my first memory from this life.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/6/19 4:25 PM as a reply to james.
james:
Does anybody remember when your ego came? How old were you at the time?

I think I must have been ca 4 years old. That is my first memory from this life.


aloha james,

   It was probably earlier. The standard in spiritual literature is the infant of seven days who first learns to smile, by imitation. I have pictures on the wall of my cabin crawn by my five year old grand-daughter, zara fatima. Every person depicted is smiling.

   I remember when my eldest son first thought of lying. He was two, and totally transparent. It had occurred to him that concealing something might lead to him getting more. You could see in his face, that first idea that deceiving people could benefit him personally. He was never the same after that. Hopefully one day his true self will be restored.

terry

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/6/19 4:57 PM as a reply to james.
I think it’s a gradual development, starting with what terry describes. I don’t remember the exact age when my kid learned that in order to play peakaboo as the one taking the initiative, one needs to first frame the activity and make sure that one has the interlocutor’s attention both at the moment when one hides and at the moment when one comes back again. I think my kid was a few months old. It was something we played with while changing diapers. I know that I have written it down, but at the moment I’m too tired to go and look for it.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/6/19 8:10 PM as a reply to james.
James, you might like this: http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter%209%20levels%20paper%20new%201.1'14%2097p%5B1%5D.pdf


 It's a map not only of initial ego development but also how the ego changes over time in childhood, teenage, and adulthood.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/6/19 9:04 PM as a reply to james.
I honestly don't remember, but I agree with Terry that it must be quite early when it begins. In my kids (now both 20) it was present before speech even, mostly as a sense of humor about simple successful conceits, like hiding. I think most games include some small amount of ego.  

Perhaps the time it takes to finally dissolve is some clue? In Zen I have commonly heard 10 years for some full stabilization of no-self. It took just under 5 years, in my case. 

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/6/19 10:47 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Thanks, it does make sense, (that it starts earlier). ( I will check out that map too)

The memory I have is that hate came upon me. For no huge reason. (I was playing and my grandmother told me to do something)
I remember being shocked by my own reaction. Before that moment, I had never experienced evil.
There was nothing gradual about it, something just changed that very moment.

Maybe it was depression, anybody here with a simular experience? 

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/13/19 11:45 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
I honestly don't remember, but I agree with Terry that it must be quite early when it begins. In my kids (now both 20) it was present before speech even, mostly as a sense of humor about simple successful conceits, like hiding. I think most games include some small amount of ego.  

Perhaps the time it takes to finally dissolve is some clue? In Zen I have commonly heard 10 years for some full stabilization of no-self. It took just under 5 years, in my case. 


   I had to laugh when you mentioned five and ten years for ego dissolution. My ego - that is, "me" - struggles every day, a worm on a hook.

terry


All the time I pray to Buddha
I keep on
killing mosquitoes.

~issa

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/17/19 1:07 PM as a reply to terry.
IMHO, when you cannot see "self" in external reality, and doing or something to be done are seen to be illusory, the lack of "self" is what finally allows these to be seen through:
  1. belief in a self 
  2. doubt or uncertainty about the path
  3. attachment to rites and rituals
  4. sensual desire
  5. ill will
  6. lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth
  7. lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm
  8. conceit
  9. restlessness
  10. ignorance
...even the hook and the worm are seen to be the empty mental constructs they always have been.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/17/19 4:19 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
IMHO, when you cannot see "self" in external reality, and doing or something to be done are seen to be illusory, the lack of "self" is what finally allows these to be seen through:
  1. belief in a self 
  2. doubt or uncertainty about the path
  3. attachment to rites and rituals
  4. sensual desire
  5. ill will
  6. lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth
  7. lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm
  8. conceit
  9. restlessness
  10. ignorance
...even the hook and the worm are seen to be the empty mental constructs they always have been.



   Seeing through them is one thing; being free of them is another. As long as any of us are attached, we are all attached. As long as there is self and other, all sins are our own.

   If I could be free, I wouldn't be. I'd rather share a cell with jesus than play golf with pharaoh. The worm occupies the hook voluntarily.

   I look at this list and see stuff I have problems with every day. I may not be very attached to rites and rituals. Otherwise, they're all mine.

terry



My friends from the prison
They ask unto me
"How good, how good
Does it feel to be free?"
And I answer them
Most mysteriously
"Are birds free of the chains of the skyway?"

~bob dylan

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/17/19 4:44 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
IMHO, when you cannot see "self" in external reality, and doing or something to be done are seen to be illusory, the lack of "self" is what finally allows these to be seen through:
  1. belief in a self 
  2. doubt or uncertainty about the path
  3. attachment to rites and rituals
  4. sensual desire
  5. ill will
  6. lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth
  7. lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm
  8. conceit
  9. restlessness
  10. ignorance
...even the hook and the worm are seen to be the empty mental constructs they always have been.

   

   Forgetting, for a moment, you and me and our respective enlightenments, let's think in this dream world, of whom "the awakened person" actually is. In this dream of individual beings - seeing through self as you say - the awakened person is just another dream figure. No more helpful than a dream tiger is dangerous.
   
   Whatever role you play is still only a role, not "you" at all. The enlightened being is an empty construct. Nonself is as much of an attachment as self. In emptiness both disappear.

terry



tao te ching, trans feng



21.

The greatest Virtue is to follow Tao and Tao alone. 
The Tao is elusive and intangible. 
Oh, it is intangible and elusive, and yet within is image. 
Oh, it is elusive and intangible, and yet within is form. 
Oh, it is dim and dark, and yet within is essence. 
This essence is very real, and therein lies faith. 
From the very beginning until now its name has never been forgotten. 
Thus I perceive the creation. 
How do I know the ways of creation? 
Because of this.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/17/19 7:24 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
IMHO, when you cannot see "self" in external reality, and doing or something to be done are seen to be illusory, the lack of "self" is what finally allows these to be seen through:
  1. belief in a self 
  2. doubt or uncertainty about the path
  3. attachment to rites and rituals
  4. sensual desire
  5. ill will
  6. lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth
  7. lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm
  8. conceit
  9. restlessness
  10. ignorance
...even the hook and the worm are seen to be the empty mental constructs they always have been.


   aloha my respected and admired friend stirling,

   There is such a subtle issue here, so difficult to get at, I can't leave it alone, like a moth to flame.

   Rinzai would call his monks to attend to "the lone brightness here listening to the dharma." The one who is "listening to the dharma" is us, you and me. Anyone with ears to hear, the dharma is here to be heard.

   Now, my friend, bear with me: if we are listening, who is speaking the dharma? "Not us" - not I, not you. Words stream forth and we identify with them, but the words are just words, and we are only what we are, men like others.

   We are fortunate, if the dharma is spoken in our presence, if we can recognize it, let alone understand. One may never "understand" what is beyond the discriminating mind.

   I've been wanting to post the following two stories, and here is a good place. Ma-tsu and Shih-t'ou were the dharma ancestors of all five houses of zen. It is one thing to speak the dharma, another to understand. One thing to practice the dharma, another to have it practice you.


terry



in "the roaring stream," ed foster and shoemaker



from 'the transmission of the lamp'


Shih-t'ou: "My teaching which has come down from ancient buddhas is not dependent on meditation [dhyana] or on diligent application of any kind. When you attain insight as attained by the Buddha, you realize that Mind is Buddha and Buddha Is Mind, that Mind, Buddha, sentient beings, bodhi {enlightenment}, and klesha [the passions] are of one and the same substance while they vary in names. You should know that your own mind-essence is neither subject to annihilation nor eternally subsisting, is neither pure nor defiled, that it remains perfectly undisturbed and self-sufficient and the same with the wise and the ignorant, that it is not limited in its working, and that it is not included in the category of mind [chitta], consciousness [manas], or thought [vijnana]. The three worlds of desire, form and no-form and the six paths of existence are no more than manifestations of your mind itself. They are all like the moon reflected in water or images in the mirror. How can we speak of them as being born or passing away? When you come to this understaning, you will be furnished with all the things you are in need of."

   Tao-wu, one of Shih-t'ou's disciples, then asked, "Who has attained to the understanding of Hui-neng's teaching?"

   T'ou: "The one who understands Buddhism."

   Wu: "Have you attained it?"

   T'ou: "No. I do not understand Buddhism."




from "The Records of Ma-Tsu"


When Teng Yin-feng was about to leave the Ancestor, the Ancestor asked him, "Where are you going?"

   "To Shih-t'ou," replied Yin-feng.

   The Ancestor said, "Shih-t'ou's path is slippery."

   Yin-fen said, "I will use my own skills to deal with the situation as it presents itself." Then he left.

   As soon as he arrived in front of Shih-t'ou, he walked around the Ch'an seat once, struck his shaft on the ground, and asked, "What is the meaning?"

   Shih-t'ou said, "Heavens! Heavens!" Yin-feng was left speechless.

   He returned to the Ancestor and reported what happened. The Ancestor said, "Go back to see him again. When he says, 'Heavens! Heavens!' you make a deep sigh twice."

   Yin-feng went back to Shih-t'ou and asked the same question as before. Shih-t'ou made a deep sigh twice. Yin-feng was left speechless again. He returned to the Ancestor and related what happened. 

   The Ancestor said, "I told you that Shih-t'ou's path is slippery."

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/17/19 11:15 PM as a reply to terry.
from "the teachings of rumi," andrew harvey:



More Than One Stage Has To Be Transcended

Be always thankful, never be lured by vanity,
Don't be contemptuous, listen attentively, don't boast:
I am the slave of the one who never considers
He's attained the table of Union with God.
More than one stage has to be transcended,
So one day the traveller can arrive home.
Although the iron becomes red, it isn't so by nature;
Its redness comes from something that inflames it.
If the window of your house is full of light,
Don't think anythng else luminous but the sun.
Each door and wall proclaims, "I am luminous!
I dont just reflect light, I am it."
The sun laughs, "Idiots! Just wait until I set,
The truth of what you claim will be obvious!"
Plants say, "We are green from our own power!
It's our nature to be joyful and green and high!"
Summer says to them, "Fools! Let's just see
How you'll all look when I leave!"
The body boasts of its beauty and elegance,
And the spirit which has hidden its wings and feathers
Says to it, "You dung heap, who do you think you are?
It's because of my shining you live a day or two.
You can make all the disdainful faces you want,
Just wait for what will happen when I vanish!
Those whose love warmed you will dig your tomb
And make you a food for ants and reptiles.
Those who often came to you aflame with desire
Will stop up their noses at your stink."

~mathnawi

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/18/19 2:37 AM as a reply to terry.
from the divan-i-hafiz, trans wilberforce-clarke


247.

'Tis a long time; and the Heart-possessor (God), a message -
     sent not;
A letter, wrote not; and a salutation, -
    sent not.

A hundred letters I sent; and that sovereign of horsemen
A messenger hastened not; and a message -
    sent not.

To me, like a wild beast, reason affrighted,
One, deer of gait; partridge of strut (messenger), He (the heart-possessor) -
    sent not.

He (the true beloved) knew that (through separation from Him) the bird of my
   heart would go from my hand (would die),
Yet, of that chain-like hair, a snare, He - 
    sent not.

Complaint! that Saki (the true beloved), sweet of lip, intoxicated,
Knew that I was wine-sick, and a cup of wine, -
    sent not. 

As long as I boasted of excellences and of the stages (of divine knowledge),
To me, any news of any stage (of divine knowledge), He -
    sent not.

Hafiz! Be with respect. For appeal is none:
If a message to a humble slave, the King -
    sent not.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/19/19 7:06 AM as a reply to terry.
The memory I have is that hate came upon me. For no huge reason. (I was playing and my grandmother told me to do something)
I remember being shocked by my own reaction. Before that moment, I had never experienced evil.
There was nothing gradual about it, something just changed that very moment.

Maybe it was depression, allthouh I talked to a shrink about it, he had never heard of something like that.

Which led me to believe, could it be the dark night of the soul that came over me. That is the most logical thing in my mind.
Like that it was the first time I experienced duality.... 
That would mean I spend ca 30 years in dark night, that is sure what it feels like..

If you Daniel ever read this, it would be really interresting to hear your thoughts about it. 
Because the experience is so unique, sure somebody out there must have experienced something simular.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/20/19 5:22 PM as a reply to james.
james:
The memory I have is that hate came upon me. For no huge reason. (I was playing and my grandmother told me to do something)
I remember being shocked by my own reaction. Before that moment, I had never experienced evil.
There was nothing gradual about it, something just changed that very moment.

Maybe it was depression, allthouh I talked to a shrink about it, he had never heard of something like that.

Which led me to believe, could it be the dark night of the soul that came over me. That is the most logical thing in my mind.
Like that it was the first time I experienced duality.... 
That would mean I spend ca 30 years in dark night, that is sure what it feels like..

If you Daniel ever read this, it would be really interresting to hear your thoughts about it. 
Because the experience is so unique, sure somebody out there must have experienced something simular.

from emmanuel swedenborg, "arcana coelestia":



59. The reason why the “vegetable and the green of the herb” only are here described as food for the natural man is this. In the course of regeneration, when man is being made spiritual, he is continually engaged in combat, on which account the church of the Lord is called “militant”; for before regeneration cupidities have the dominion, because the whole man is composed of mere cupidities and the falsities thence derived. During regeneration these cupidities and falsities cannot be instantaneously abolished, for this would be to destroy the whole man, such being the only life which he has acquired; and therefore evil spirits are suffered to continue with him for a long time, that they may excite his cupidities, and that these may thus be loosened, in innumerable ways, even to such a degree that they can be inclined by the Lord to good, and the man be thus reformed. In the time of combat, the evil spirits, who bear the utmost hatred against all that is good and true, that is, against whatever is of love and faith toward the Lord—which things alone are good and true, because they have eternal life in them—leave the man nothing else for food but what is compared to the vegetable and the green of the herb; nevertheless the Lord gives him also a food which is compared to the herb bearing seed, and to the tree in which is fruit, which are states of tranquillity and peace, with their joys and delights; and this food the Lord gives the man at intervals.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/20/19 6:37 PM as a reply to james.
[quote=james


]Because the experience is so unique, sure somebody out there must have experienced something simular.



(smile)

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/20/19 7:04 PM as a reply to terry.
Hi, yeah that sentence is a little off, haha. 

I don`t really get how that text has an answer though. The language is not very familiar to me, and maybe I misunderstood the whole thing. 
Say this sentence: 
"During regeneration these cupidities and falsities cannot be instantaneously abolished, for this would be to destroy the whole man, such being the only life which he has acquired; and therefore evil spirits are suffered to continue with him for a long time..."

I was like four years old, it would not have destroyed me. It was the other way around, it destroyed me. It`s pretty much just luck that I`m alive today.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/25/19 7:00 PM as a reply to james.
james:
Hi, yeah that sentence is a little off, haha. 

I don`t really get how that text has an answer though. The language is not very familiar to me, and maybe I misunderstood the whole thing. 
Say this sentence: 
"During regeneration these cupidities and falsities cannot be instantaneously abolished, for this would be to destroy the whole man, such being the only life which he has acquired; and therefore evil spirits are suffered to continue with him for a long time..."

I was like four years old, it would not have destroyed me. It was the other way around, it destroyed me. It`s pretty much just luck that I`m alive today.


    The quote refers back to what I was speaking of earlier in terms of the effect that a spiritual experience of kensho or satori might cause. The "regeneration" of the individual. "Cupidities and falsities" refer to the buddhist idea of desire and its effects, the ignorance that attends craving and the various devices we use to get what we want.

   These spiritual experiences can be transformative. Mine was for me, and others here have been similarly affected. You don't just proceed to the next square on the spiritual game board, "stream entry" or whatever you want to call it. Such experiences can undermine the ego, and release the spirit.

   The reaction that you want to hide and deceive others so they don't know you have been affected seems wrong-headed to me. Ego destruction is no loss, restoring ego no gain.

   With the best will in the world, these experiences generally don't wipe out decades of conditioning over night. Habits tend to reassert themselves. The ego finds this comforting; spirit finds it appalling. Once the ego re-emerges it is not gotten rid of again so easily. Our old habits return in full force if we let them. Rather like being depressed and eating meat  and watching netflix for relief. The sufis call this spiritual warfare, "the greater jihad."

   In swedenborg's work there are two sides to every being, "exterior" and "interior." The exterior man is dominated by "cupidities and falsites." the interior man is dominated by the lord (of love). At times of spiritual influx, the interior man may briefly become ascendant. This can be frightening to the conventional "exterior" person who has always striven to be normal and dreads confrontation or difference. The ecstasies of the experience are rapidly forgotten in the fear of being regarded as different. 

   It's a red pill/ blue pill moment. You either want to be normal forever or take the arduous road to sainthood. Hang it up until your next life, or press on, emboldened as a lover who has received a glance.


terry



It's All Over Now, Baby Blue
(Bob Dylan)

You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last
But whatever you wish to keep, you better grab it fast
Yonder stands your orphan with his gun
Crying like a fire in the sun
Look out the saints are comin' through
And it's all over now, baby blue
The highway is for gamblers, better use your sense
Take what you have gathered from coincidence
The empty-handed painter from your streets
Is drawing crazy patterns on your sheets
This sky, too, is folding under you
And it's all over now, baby blue
All your seasick sailors, they are rowing home
All your reindeer armies, are all going home
The lover who just walked out your door
Has taken all his blankets from the floor
The carpet, too, is moving under you
And it's all over now, baby blue
Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you
Forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you
The vagabond who's rapping at your door
Is standing in the clothes that you once wore
Strike another match, go start anew
And it's all over now, baby blue

Songwriters: Bob Dylan

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/26/19 8:23 AM as a reply to james.
Thank you Terry. That was some good advice, and just at the right time.
I like it more when you just write, instead of qouting. You might be just as wise as the people you are quotin. Maybe some day somebody quotes you.
As for me; Fuck no I`m not going back to that hellhole. My mind doesn`t work there, my body doesn`t work there. I am killing myself every moment til it`s permanent. I guess that`s the only way. If it slips away again I will stop eating and sleeping until it comes back.. 
One day I almost completly lost it because I got pissed off... What I did was work out, took a freazing bath in the sea, smoked a little weed, took a walk in the forrest and it came back. 

When you get it, and then loose it. Is that bad? Or should I say; when I loose it, and it comes backemoticon
Any good books about loosing it?

For the moment (except that one day...) if I loose it I can just jump back in. 
But that day when I almost lost it, that made me realize that loosing it is still possible.

(I never tried to get rid off it. But the first week it was so overwhelming that my ex-wife got worried, also I cried like 10 times a day for a week. Some people was convinced I was on speed, because they saw an intenisy in my eyes that was never there before. I don`t want the cops knocking on my door because of rumers.. So I had to tone it way down, I don`t want people to worry about me.
But I maybe overdid it to the point where I almost lost it.)

Also one last thing that I didn`t mention before. When it was really strong the first couple of days when I was pretty much crying the whole time. I was walking along a sidewalk, and I saw this swing( for kids) at a distance. And just for the heck of it, I focused intenselly on it, and tried to lift it. And it was so fucking wierd, it was like a connection happened, and all of sudden I could feel my energy just collapse. It lasted just a few seconds I believe, then I had to stop because if I had not I would have passed out for sure. I know this sounds wacko, and maybe I am just a nutcase, but it kind of makes sense to me.

Maybe I should start a practice log here, since it`s pretty much about my practice. I will do next time. I just wanted to say thanks, but it got a little longer.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/26/19 9:10 AM as a reply to james.
RE: the day ego came.

Also.  I believe that I have been in a dark night since my childhood. I have at least experienced some stages of cycleing. But I never got the dark night. I believe this is because it has been my natural state. Every other experience has been different states of cycleing. 
I thought of dark night as a state when you have seen the magic land, but can't yet kill yourself. So you are stuck,  even if you are ready to give up.. 
In a way the dark night is like a hellish depression, but with hope. Sorry don't mean to offend people in the dark night. Believe me, I know it's hell. But at least there's hope.

RE: the day ego came.
Answer
6/28/19 2:25 PM as a reply to james.
james:
Thank you Terry. That was some good advice, and just at the right time.
I like it more when you just write, instead of qouting. You might be just as wise as the people you are quotin. Maybe some day somebody quotes you.
As for me; Fuck no I`m not going back to that hellhole. My mind doesn`t work there, my body doesn`t work there. I am killing myself every moment til it`s permanent. I guess that`s the only way. If it slips away again I will stop eating and sleeping until it comes back.. 
One day I almost completly lost it because I got pissed off... What I did was work out, took a freazing bath in the sea, smoked a little weed, took a walk in the forrest and it came back. 

When you get it, and then loose it. Is that bad? Or should I say; when I loose it, and it comes backemoticon
Any good books about loosing it?

For the moment (except that one day...) if I loose it I can just jump back in. 
But that day when I almost lost it, that made me realize that loosing it is still possible.

(I never tried to get rid off it. But the first week it was so overwhelming that my ex-wife got worried, also I cried like 10 times a day for a week. Some people was convinced I was on speed, because they saw an intenisy in my eyes that was never there before. I don`t want the cops knocking on my door because of rumers.. So I had to tone it way down, I don`t want people to worry about me.
But I maybe overdid it to the point where I almost lost it.)

Also one last thing that I didn`t mention before. When it was really strong the first couple of days when I was pretty much crying the whole time. I was walking along a sidewalk, and I saw this swing( for kids) at a distance. And just for the heck of it, I focused intenselly on it, and tried to lift it. And it was so fucking wierd, it was like a connection happened, and all of sudden I could feel my energy just collapse. It lasted just a few seconds I believe, then I had to stop because if I had not I would have passed out for sure. I know this sounds wacko, and maybe I am just a nutcase, but it kind of makes sense to me.

Maybe I should start a practice log here, since it`s pretty much about my practice. I will do next time. I just wanted to say thanks, but it got a little longer.


   Brother, we handle these things quite naturally. It's all good. People recognize sincerity. We are all in a balance between all the influences that affect us. That balance is the best we can do and is ongoing. Thus, it is a homeostasis. This everchanging sense of balancing is in itself a static situation, not attached to passing time. When we are careening between joy and tears, lust and repletion, anger and love, the balance seems rare and fragile, as we pass through the still point so seldom. Think of throwing an object into the air, at some point it slows, stops, and starts to pick up speed again, providing a period of relative calm. The rest of the time life can be a roller coaster. Yet still there is balance. We withdraw from extremes.

   Problems come in when ego interferes with natural processes. The ego does not trust life and wants to manipulate events in order to "improve" outcomes. But "god is the best of planners." You cannot improve the universe. The universe is perfectly sincere, perfectly itself.

   So, don't struggle. Trust the process, your natural way of coping, moderation in moderation. Don't panic, it's organic.


terry


  " Every day is a good day."
~pai chang