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Saints and Psychopaths

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Saints and Psychopaths Jane Laurel Carrington 1/6/11 6:47 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Andy W 1/7/11 12:43 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Daniel Johnson 1/7/11 4:27 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths JohnM 3/19/18 10:43 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Andromeda 3/19/18 1:04 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Daniel M. Ingram 3/19/18 1:54 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Mettafore 3/20/18 12:04 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Daniel M. Ingram 3/20/18 9:33 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Anna L 3/24/18 5:12 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths JohnM 3/20/18 10:51 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Laurel Carrington 3/24/18 9:22 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Francis 3/25/18 2:11 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Francis M. Crawford 3/21/18 8:16 AM
epub of Psycholaths&Saints Eudoxos . 2/1/19 3:32 PM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Eudoxos . 2/2/19 4:46 AM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Rich Lee 2/4/19 11:18 AM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Lewis James 3/12/19 2:44 AM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Eudoxos . 3/12/19 4:03 AM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Vladimir Zetko 3/8/19 8:46 AM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Monsoon Frog 3/16/19 5:59 AM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Stickman2 3/8/19 9:33 AM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Vladimir Zetko 3/8/19 11:02 AM
RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints Stickman2 3/8/19 11:33 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/8/19 12:17 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Chris Marti 3/8/19 1:28 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/9/19 5:43 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Stickman2 3/10/19 4:00 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/10/19 7:20 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Chris Marti 3/10/19 10:24 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths Ward Law 3/10/19 10:44 AM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/11/19 3:19 PM
RE: Saints and Psychopaths deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility 3/11/19 3:23 PM
Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
1/6/11 6:47 AM
This is nothing new or earth-shattering, just a comment that I managed to get a reasonably-priced copy of Bill Hamilton's book from the used books on Amazon, and it is well worth reading. I now understand where Daniel is coming from even better than I did just from reading his book and comments here. What is also interesting about it for me is that it gives a piece of 20th-century cultural history, some of which I lived through. A lot of people who began practicing in the 60's and 70's did so as a result of an LSD experience (I didn't do that, but I remember how popular it was). He gives a clear explanation of how various traditions compare and overlap, and some glimpses into the jet-setting retreat culture of the period. I am wondering how that culture has changed in the past few decades, how it compares to what Bill Hamilton describes in his book. If anyone can comment on this question I'd be grateful.

Laurel

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
1/7/11 12:43 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
The book is also available on Scribd and can be downloaded, printed out etc

http://www.scribd.com/Saints-and-Psychopaths/d/19649507

Andy

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
1/7/11 4:27 PM as a reply to Andy W.
Wow, thanks for the link, Andy. I've been wanting to read that for a while.

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/19/18 10:43 AM as a reply to Andy W.
Thank you for the link to Saints & Psychopaths on Scribd.com!

I noticed some pages missing in the Preface, specifically xiv and xv. Does anyone know if these pages are available elsewhere?

This book fills in so many blanks for me, it seems ironic that it  has a couple of its own. :-)
John

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/19/18 1:04 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
I read Saints and Psychopaths years ago, along with a number of other books on the subject such as The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power which was quite good. I'm currently watching Wild, Wild Country on Netflix, which is about a 1980s cult in Oregon that was responsible for the largest bioterrorism attack in US history. There's a blog about controversial Buddhist groups called Diffi-cult if you want to read about more recent scandals.

I don't think much has besides the details has changed since the 60s. Humans are still human, after all. People who are spiritually hungry make easy prey for predatory gurus and there are plenty of them out there of various spiritual stripes. What with the current volatile state of world affairs, it wouldn't surprise me if this problem will only get worse over the coming years.

This is why I think we all have a moral duty to avoid supporting teachers with clear and serious ethics issues. And to look closely at any leaders' values and how they uphold them. We are all human and flawed, to be sure, but there are an awful lot of wolves in sheep's clothing out there in the world.

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/19/18 1:54 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
Yeah, people are the same.

I can tell you for certain that the dharma world is still crawling with narcissists, psychopaths, charlatans, cult leaders, histrionics, borderlines, exploiters and all the rest of it just as much now as it was then. The DhO has been no exception, as even relatively recent history has shown. We are all possible prey for them. The learning curve can be difficult.

Have been thinking about Bill a lot recently as MCTB2 is nearly done, as it was and is basically my paltry attempt to write down those things that he wasn't able to before he died. For all his quirks, he was a truly great man.

May we do our best to avoid unfortunate entanglements that lead to more harm than good,

Daniel

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/20/18 12:04 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I read the book years ago, too. His girlfriend's behaviour was plain scary as I remember. I have been fortunate so far to come across good teachers.

Hope we all can send Metta to all those narcissists, psychopaths, charlatans, cult leaders, histrionics, borderlines, exploiters. It must be terrible to be stuck in that kind of hell.

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/20/18 9:33 AM as a reply to Mettafore.
Mettafore:
Hope we all can send Metta to all those narcissists, psychopaths, charlatans, cult leaders, histrionics, borderlines, exploiters. It must be terrible to be stuck in that kind of hell.
True dat.

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/20/18 10:51 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
The Path on Hulu is also definitely worth a watch. A engaging and thoughtful look at the complexities of trying to build community in the face of varying degrees of sainthood and psychopathy. Hooray for straightforward mentorship!

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
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3/21/18 8:16 AM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
 It’s a very fun and great read and the warmth and simple wisdom and openness of the author really comes through. 

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/24/18 5:12 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Don’t forget the lost souls and drifters! They’re actually the ones who you might form an amazing connection with, only to have your heart broken when they drift off to Byron Bay / LA / Mexico / the Amazon onto their next spiritual quest! ;)

Sometimes it’s tough being a “pragmatic” Dharma person ;) 

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/24/18 9:22 PM as a reply to JohnM.
John Andrew Munroe:
The Path on Hulu is also definitely worth a watch. A engaging and thoughtful look at the complexities of trying to build community in the face of varying degrees of sainthood and psychopathy. Hooray for straightforward mentorship!

Started watching it. Thanks for the recommendation, Laurel (same person—well, same dna—as the o.p.)

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/25/18 2:11 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
Andromeda:
I'm currently watching Wild, Wild Country on Netflix, which is about a 1980s cult in Oregon that was responsible for the largest bioterrorism attack in US history.

I just finished Wild Wild Country a few days ago and it was quite a strange journey to watch it all play out the way that it did; a little jostled because prior to the series I went from experimenting with variations of dynamic meditation (since it loosely overlapped with a curiosity), found out it originated from 'osho' and then accidentally discovered they were part of a commune involved in the attack near where I live. The claim was his secretary sheela formed the cult-like religion around him and members were semi-coerced into attacks despite practicing a meditation for emotional catharsis, all while experimenting with what they called a buddhafield (similar to Holy Hell). I was craving a little more in-depth stuff after reading parts of this, and then netflix up and released an entire series.

I might need to finally read Saints and Psychopaths to get a grasp on this stuff as I get the sense aspects of that was narrative smokescreen for metta practice, but when it's fed through attachment to protect a person claiming to generate a buddhafield (osho), it gave rise to a cult-like following whether accidental or purposeful, one thing led to another and culture-clash descended into insider/outsider over-protective retaliation when they should have let it gracefully degrade as an open label placebo to keep itself going without fear of failure. The beauty of open label placebos is they tend to still work even when someone knows it is or might be one.

epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
2/1/19 3:32 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
I went through the (not so big) pains of OCR'ing this book and now I have it almost polished, saved as Sphinx (sphinx-doc.org, system programmers like to use), meaning it can be compiled straight into html or epub (and others, like manpage emoticon) ). I am attaching the epub as teaser.

I would appreciate someone with the skill&time&... to do a proof-read and fix stuff in the saints.rst (also attached), it seems it is mostly things like periods at the end of setence with the OCR missed and such details, perhaps one fix per page in average.

If we do this, we have a quality epub of this remarkable book, much better than the scanned PDF. (Pages missing in the PDF are also included.)

Volunteers? emoticon

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
2/2/19 4:46 AM as a reply to Eudoxos ..
I moved to the 21st century with collaborative editing.

The source for the e-book moved to github https://github.com/eudoxos/saints/ . If you are familiar with github, you are welcome to create pull requests with any mistakes you found and I will merge them. The resulting files (HTML and ePub, possibly other formats later if wanted) at https://eudoxos.github.io/saints/ will update automatically. Links to the HTML/ePub are at https://github.com/eudoxos/saints/#how-to-get-it .

Old-style "I am attaching a fixed version of saints.rst" is also okay.

Enjoy and please help fix mistakes emoticon

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
2/4/19 11:18 AM as a reply to Eudoxos ..
I tried to push a branch to your repo - permission denied. Do you need to give me permission or am I messing up? I'm github/richlee using rich-at-laughingblade-dot-com.
TIA Rich

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
3/8/19 8:46 AM as a reply to Eudoxos ..
Congrats for your work!

One of my next tasks was to find a way to make an epub/azw3 for this book.

I just downloaded your epub and I will try to read it the soonest possible. Any pull request from:

https://github.com/mahasivipassana

means that it's me trying to send you fixes!

Thanks again.

EDIT:

For anyone interested, I have attached the azw3 (kindle) version with additional soft hyphenation (using hyphenate this!) I just created for personal use to load it on my kindle.

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
3/8/19 9:33 AM as a reply to Eudoxos ..
Typo
1
"after three weeks of frying to settle into the retreat"

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
3/8/19 11:02 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
Stickman2:
Typo
1
"after three weeks of frying to settle into the retreat"

I have submitted your typo fix to the original text:

https://github.com/eudoxos/saints/pull/2

When eudoxos accepts it, it will be automatically corrected!

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
3/8/19 11:33 AM as a reply to Vladimir Zetko.
There was another grammar error towards the end of the psycho wife section, I'll paste it up if I see it again.

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/8/19 12:17 PM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
As I remember correcly LSD was invented as a form of mind control and to give to soldiers so that they would go into combat with an air of psychopathy.  The elimination of feeling - in practice - can cause psychopathy in some people.

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/8/19 1:28 PM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
LSD was actually invented accidentally, not deliberately:

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-invention-of-lsd-1992079

LSD was first synthesized on November 16, 1938, by Swiss chemist Albert Hofmann in Sandoz Laboratories in Basle, Switzerland. However, it was a few years before Albert Hofmann realized what he had invented. LSD, known as LSD-25 or Lysergic Acid Diethylamide, is a psychoactive hallucinogenic drug.

It was not until 1943 that Albert Hofmann discovered the hallucinogenic properties of LSD. LSD has a chemical structure that is very similar to the 
neurotransmitter called serotonin. However, it is still not clear what produces all the effects of LSD.

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
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3/9/19 5:43 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Ah Okay, think it must have been later then when the British and American army tried to use it on their troops!

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/10/19 4:00 AM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
Do you want the long version or the hilarious highlights ?

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
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3/10/19 7:20 AM as a reply to Stickman2.
emoticon loved the hilarious highlights....  emoticon

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/10/19 10:24 AM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
Oh, it gets much, much worse:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/03/23/the-legacy-of-the-cias-secret-lsd-experiments-on-america/

Before LSD escaped the lab and was evangelized by hippies, the U.S. government was secretly testing the effects of the drug on hundreds of unsuspecting American civilians and military personnel. In a must-read feature on newly unclassified material on the Central Intelligence Agency’s covert operation, the MK-ULTRA program, which ran from 1953 to 1964, SF Weekly fully exposes the bizarre world of the CIA’s unethical drug tests.  The utterly-unbelievable-but-true story involved using hookers to lure in unwitting johns for undisclosed testing, narcotics agents who slipped drugs into drinks, and a U.S. marshal who held up a San Francisco bar not knowing he was high on acid.

The LSD experiments were purportedly carried out because the U.S. believed that communist Russia, North Korea 
and China were using the drug to brainwash captured Americans. Consequently, the CIA didn’t want to fall behind in developing and responding to this potentially useful technology. 

So, incredibly, it decided to slip acid secretly to Americans — at the beach, in city bars, at restaurants. For a decade, the CIA conducted completely uncontrolled tests in which they drugged people unknowingly, then followed and watched them without intervening. In some cases, the agency used the drug to perform interrogations, but these procedures were conducted so inconsistently that they proved equally useless in providing useful data.


RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/10/19 10:44 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
For the complete history, I highly recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Acid-Dreams-Complete-History-Sixties/dp/0802130623

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
Answer
3/11/19 3:19 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yes, I have read a lot of Colin Ross's stuff on the MK Ultra files...  testing unwitting members of the public with LSD was actually minor in comparison to what they did....  these are the real psychopaths/sociopaths of the world.....  haven't really come across any true psychopaths in the dharma world to be fair but do think if practice goes wrong then parctitioners can become so dissociated they appear emotionless and lifeless *I've seen a lot of that* - and of course narcissism but most leaders have these traits.

RE: Saints and Psychopaths
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3/11/19 3:23 PM as a reply to deleteaccountplease thereisnofacility.
Off the subject now but the link if you wanna read more and havent already - is Colin Ross - CIA Doctors -

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
3/12/19 2:44 AM as a reply to Rich Lee.
Hi Rich, the way to do it is to hit 'fork' on the project page to create a copy of the repo in your github account. Make your changes there, commit them, and then submit a 'pull request' to the original repo to request that your local changes get copied into the upstream project. 

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
3/12/19 4:03 AM as a reply to Rich Lee.
Hi, sorry, did not see your post, it all got to Junk. You need to fork the repo first (so that it belongs to you), hack commit, hack commit, push. Then ask for pull request through the github web interface. Or just attach a git diff here, I will be happy to apply it.

RE: epub of Psycholaths&Saints
Answer
3/16/19 5:59 AM as a reply to Eudoxos ..
JohnM: “I noticed some pages missing in the Preface, specifically xiv and xv. Does anyone know if these pages are available elsewhere?”
Thanks for pointing this out! 
I’ve read the book a few times from a pdf downloaded a few years ago and never noticed the actual pages were missing … I’d always thought the gap was simply an editing error or an awkward sentence.


Eudoxos: 
Thanks a bunch for taking the initiative of scanning and posting the book.


-----

I did an MBSR course followed a few months later by my first retreat where I crossed the A&P (a 10-day Goenka dealio). Afterwards, I researched and read intensely trying to make sense of what this path was all about and where it might lead. Much of what I read was written from frames of reference far outside my own cultural experiences and mythic orientation, as well as too overtly fundamentalist and/or dogmatic to comfortably relate to, and in some case made even more obscure with heaping doses of opaque mumbo jumbo. Thankfully I came upon some writing by Kenneth Folk, which led me to Hamilton’s book, and also to the Dharma Overground and MCTB. 

Reading Saints and Psychopaths was transformative as it gave me an outline of what the path might entail in a cultural and ideological container I was comfortable with. It brought it all down to earth in an achievable manner and gave me my marching orders. However, Hamilton the person and practitioner has still remained elusive in many ways and although the book outlined his journey it still leaves plenty of gaps. 

Those missing pages are interesting as they provide a bit more background on his teaching, volunteer work, the IMS scene, the challenges of freely distributing dharma materials in the West, and his retreat practice. For example, he wrote that after having spent many years in intensive retreat, 
I thought that I had learned the lesson that there is no particular time standard for how the practice unfolds. I expected that the purpose of a trifling ten-day retreat in 1986 was to renew old acquaintances and brush up on my meditation practice. I was surprised that this ten-day retreat turned out to be one of the pivotal experiences of my life.”