Could this be 3 Characteristics, Dark Night, or I'm simply obsessing? - Discussion
Just a thought: the idea that there is actually no perceiver (as a separate entity), or that you don't actually have control, that there's no-one home, etc, might be scary at first, but if you let it scare you a few times, you will soon get used to it. One day soon, you'll just shrug your shoulders and say "yeah, so what?!" and it won't scare you anymore.
Actually, it is really nice to get into that way of perceiving when it is clear that there isn't actually any "you" doing anything, that it all happens automatically. Very restful and pleasant
PS. It could be the DN, it could be just you obsessing, I don't have a clue. Give it some time, if it's DN there'll be other symptoms.
Actually, it is really nice to get into that way of perceiving when it is clear that there isn't actually any "you" doing anything, that it all happens automatically. Very restful and pleasant
PS. It could be the DN, it could be just you obsessing, I don't have a clue. Give it some time, if it's DN there'll be other symptoms.
Hey Jose, funnily enough I was thinking about you earlier on tonight, I've spent two hours meditating on the bus and it made me think of your original post! I'll put my two cents worth in here too....
GREAT! It doesn't matter how weak or scattered your efforts are, you're putting the effort in and that's what matters. Technique and skill will improve if you practice regularly and consistently, that's something I will absolutely and unconditionally guarantee.
This sound more like 1st ñana, Mind & Body, to me. It's simple enough to intellectually understand this stage, but to know it experientially is when the real understanding occurs.
I'd say that you're in 3rd ñana at present, you're starting to really see the Three Characteristics play out in real-time which is good achievement in itself and should be taken as proof that, regardless of how "weak" you think you're practice is, you're doing it right.
Well you can start again then, can't you? It gets worse before it gets better, it's always darkest before the dawn and yah da yah da etc etc rpt ad nauseum. There's a reason why these are clichès...they're sometimes horribly true!
Yes, it's really, really, really shitty sometimes and you'll have times when you feel like death would be the only possible release (Sounds overly dramatic? Just wait till all the Dark Night fun starts!), but you're going to be walking the same territory that countless other have walked before. Hell, I'm dealing with Re-Observation right now and having an utter c*nt of a time
Just remember that you're far from alone, this site and places like KFDh are fantastic networks of support and talking to people who've been working on these Paths a bit longer than you can be an amazingly useful resource to have.
The obvious answer is "practice" but that's not much info to go on, so I'd suggest getting into a solid routine and get that momentum going as it will carry you so much better than practicing in fits and starts. Devote even 30 minutes of your day to vipassana, make a resolution before it such as "I will accurately note one sensation per second", become aware of yourself "in the moment" for a while before sitting down and get your mindfulness a bit stronger as this will help you immensely.
Try doing what Kenneth Folk recommends and note verbally out loud, or even quietly to yourself, starting at one sensation per second. It will definitely help your practice, especially if you feel you're getting sloppy or inaccurate, and will also bring about more mindfulness as you have no choice but to be fully with the sensation as it's verbalized.
If indeed you are in the 3rd ñana then you're about to come to the point of no return in the Arising & Passing, so ask yourself if you're prepared to see reality as it really is. Right now, you've licked the sugary coating of the red pill and found that it's promises of sweetness have turned to a bitter aftertaste. Once you cross the A&P, then you've swallowed the red pill. If you really want to understand reality as it occurs then practice well and know that you're in good company. If not, the choice is yours and no one's going to think any more or any less of you than they did before.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
EDIT: One bit of advice which may save you a bit of hassle in future, when you're trying to place where you are on the stages of insight I now tend to underestimate my position in the first instance e.g. you think it might be Dark Night, sit with it and consider that you're actually in 3C's. You think you're enlightened, consider that it's "just" the A&P. See where I'm going with this? Give these things some time and reality-testing and you'll see soon enough what's going on.
About two weeks ago, I totally lost motivation with that and substituted self-enquiry for vipassana although my efforts were weak and scattered
GREAT! It doesn't matter how weak or scattered your efforts are, you're putting the effort in and that's what matters. Technique and skill will improve if you practice regularly and consistently, that's something I will absolutely and unconditionally guarantee.
Three or four days ago, all of a sudden, while reading something about no-self and thoughts, it dawned on me that my thought processes were not "me" in a sense, since I was experiencing them, and that "my" control over them must be illusory.
This sound more like 1st ñana, Mind & Body, to me. It's simple enough to intellectually understand this stage, but to know it experientially is when the real understanding occurs.
...this has been quite disturbing, to the point of feeling great anxiety in the past couple of days and having difficulties to sleep. I feel like a have swallowed the red pill in Matrix, and what I'm seeing is a landscape that, at least to me, is quite frightening: a world unfolding on its own with a "me" that is at most a silent observer, and in fact another process unfolding on its own. No control anywhere and nobody to have control, though I obviously feel like the observer and controller, illusory or not.
I'd say that you're in 3rd ñana at present, you're starting to really see the Three Characteristics play out in real-time which is good achievement in itself and should be taken as proof that, regardless of how "weak" you think you're practice is, you're doing it right.
I've stopped all practice for the moment, except for a pair of trials of vipassana and self-enquiry while feeling anxious to soothe myself, with mild-to-disappointing results.
Well you can start again then, can't you? It gets worse before it gets better, it's always darkest before the dawn and yah da yah da etc etc rpt ad nauseum. There's a reason why these are clichès...they're sometimes horribly true!
Yes, it's really, really, really shitty sometimes and you'll have times when you feel like death would be the only possible release (Sounds overly dramatic? Just wait till all the Dark Night fun starts!), but you're going to be walking the same territory that countless other have walked before. Hell, I'm dealing with Re-Observation right now and having an utter c*nt of a time
Just remember that you're far from alone, this site and places like KFDh are fantastic networks of support and talking to people who've been working on these Paths a bit longer than you can be an amazingly useful resource to have.Any thoughts or recommendations?
The obvious answer is "practice" but that's not much info to go on, so I'd suggest getting into a solid routine and get that momentum going as it will carry you so much better than practicing in fits and starts. Devote even 30 minutes of your day to vipassana, make a resolution before it such as "I will accurately note one sensation per second", become aware of yourself "in the moment" for a while before sitting down and get your mindfulness a bit stronger as this will help you immensely.
Try doing what Kenneth Folk recommends and note verbally out loud, or even quietly to yourself, starting at one sensation per second. It will definitely help your practice, especially if you feel you're getting sloppy or inaccurate, and will also bring about more mindfulness as you have no choice but to be fully with the sensation as it's verbalized.
If indeed you are in the 3rd ñana then you're about to come to the point of no return in the Arising & Passing, so ask yourself if you're prepared to see reality as it really is. Right now, you've licked the sugary coating of the red pill and found that it's promises of sweetness have turned to a bitter aftertaste. Once you cross the A&P, then you've swallowed the red pill. If you really want to understand reality as it occurs then practice well and know that you're in good company. If not, the choice is yours and no one's going to think any more or any less of you than they did before.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
EDIT: One bit of advice which may save you a bit of hassle in future, when you're trying to place where you are on the stages of insight I now tend to underestimate my position in the first instance e.g. you think it might be Dark Night, sit with it and consider that you're actually in 3C's. You think you're enlightened, consider that it's "just" the A&P. See where I'm going with this? Give these things some time and reality-testing and you'll see soon enough what's going on.
Thanks, Bruno. Your thoughts provide a more relaxed perspective on this. I laughed out loud when I read your "yeah, so what?" 
Hello, Tommy M. Nice to hear from you again.
In fact, the first time I read the description of Mind&Body I thought: "well, that's obvious", practically everybody must have attained the 1st ñana. Well, now I understand it was only obvious intellectually.
My guess was 3rd ñana, exactly, because the insight I had was related to no-self, and I was working specially with impermanence while in vipassana, and maybe I have gotten a taste of what dukkha means.
Yes, if this is the beginning of the road, I crinch just thinking what may come afterwards.
All my empathy about that. Hope that it passes real quick.
The help you all provide here is simply amazing. Three different people responding in the same day that I posted the question. I'm really grateful. Thanks also for the advice on practice. At the moment I think I'll begin with concentration to relax a bit before I retake vipassana.
This will be on my mind. Thank you for all.
This sound more like 1st ñana, Mind & Body, to me. It's simple enough to intellectually understand this stage, but to know it experientially is when the real understanding occurs.
In fact, the first time I read the description of Mind&Body I thought: "well, that's obvious", practically everybody must have attained the 1st ñana. Well, now I understand it was only obvious intellectually.
I'd say that you're in 3rd ñana at present, you're starting to really see the Three Characteristics play out in real-time which is good achievement in itself and should be taken as proof that, regardless of how "weak" you think you're practice is, you're doing it right.
My guess was 3rd ñana, exactly, because the insight I had was related to no-self, and I was working specially with impermanence while in vipassana, and maybe I have gotten a taste of what dukkha means.
Well you can start again then, can't you? It gets worse before it gets better, it's always darkest before the dawn and yah da yah da etc etc rpt ad nauseum. There's a reason why these are clichès...they're sometimes horribly true!
Yes, if this is the beginning of the road, I crinch just thinking what may come afterwards.
Hell, I'm dealing with Re-Observation right now and having an utter c*nt of a time
All my empathy about that. Hope that it passes real quick.
Just remember that you're far from alone, this site and places like KFDh are fantastic networks of support and talking to people who've been working on these Paths a bit longer than you can be an amazingly useful resource to have.
The help you all provide here is simply amazing. Three different people responding in the same day that I posted the question. I'm really grateful. Thanks also for the advice on practice. At the moment I think I'll begin with concentration to relax a bit before I retake vipassana.
If indeed you are in the 3rd ñana then you're about to come to the point of no return in the Arising & Passing, so ask yourself if you're prepared to see reality as it really is. Right now, you've licked the sugary coating of the red pill and found that it's promises of sweetness have turned to a bitter aftertaste. Once you cross the A&P, then you've swallowed the red pill. If you really want to understand reality as it occurs then practice well and know that you're in good company. If not, the choice is yours and no one's going to think any more or any less of you than they did before.
This will be on my mind. Thank you for all.
Sorry to hear you're having a tough time of it Jose, if you want to know how easy it is to confuse yourself the consider my last comment about being in Re-Observation....I realized a few days later that it was actually the 3rd ñana of this path although the instability, mental anguish, anxiety and anger were far worse than what I expected or had experienced from this stage since pre-Stream Entry (if that's even what happened!) so, sorry Claudiu, but I'd still say that you're firmly in 3rd ñana. Again, I'm just skeptical due to having messed up plenty already with this stuff myself so I'd rather underestimate than try to fit information to what I "think" about these stages. I just had an unpleasant but informative lesson on what happens when you "think" too much.
You won't end up feeling like a puppet. You'll realize through direct experience of it that you've been a puppet the entire time, vipassana is the scissors you'll use to begin cutting the strings and becoming free. I can see from your writing that you're inclined to over-intellectualize your experience of the world, but this is what's happening: You're experiencing the beginning of seeing through this whole thing. That thing you call a self is getting worried now, manifesting anxiety, fear, panic and distress as it begins to see that you're trying to loosen it's suffering-inducing grip on your experience. The choice from here is clear, you either give up and go back to normal, and there's nothing wrong with that at all, you might even come back to it when you're more psychologically ready, or you face up to the sometimes harsh realities of spiritual development, and you'll find them in every single (effective) system of attainment, realize that even these horrible, negative feeling are transient, not this "self" you think you "are", and will never satisfy you in any way. This is the way to insight, there is no other Path so clearly mapped, so verifiable and effective than the one you're treading right now. I don't want to sound too dramatic (too late!) but it's time to make a choice. If you continue then it's the A&P followed by Dark Night, if not then just do what's right for you and be honest with yourself. If you choose to stop, it's been good talking to you and I wish you well in anything life brings your way. If you choose to continue then read on.....
Don't worry to much about examining the 3C's individually, just note the sensations as they happen, if you're focusing on one part then you're missing the other two which occur and are just as important. I've made the same mistake too, Kenneth Folk recently pointed out to me that the 3C's are a conceptual framework. I thought about this quite a lot and realized that we don't note "impermanence", "Not self", or "suffering", we note sensations arise and pass, we note them as objects so they can't be this "self", and we see how no satisfaction can be had from any sensation as they don't stick around for more than a split second. That's the 3C's in real-time, not as a concept, and they can be experienced in every single sensation which can be observed. You're putting too much emphasis on the concept, and I think I'd be correct in saying that you've interpreted this in a rather nihilistic light, and not enough on the experience. Yes, there is no such thing as self beyond the sensations experienced by this "observer" on a momentary basis. Yes, all sensation will arise and pass. Yes, there is only suffering, fundamental, dualistic suffering, the ROOT of suffering (not just "thinking" you feel like shit) to be found in EVERY SINGLE sensation, no matter how lovely and sexy, violent and nauseating, depressing or manic it feels. Don't think "Oh woe is me, this world is impermanent, I have no self and don't exist, these thoughts are not the property of this self called "Jose"", Jose still exists, he's not going anywhere but you begin to see that "Jose" is actually a series of sensations, just flickering thoughts and vibrations, in the most beautiful way if you just pay attention to the goddamned sensations, not the concepts.
To stick with the Matrix metaphor, you're Neo but rather than taking the pill straight away, you're getting a quick look at what's likely to happen after you take it. Remember how I said that it's not an easy path? Well, now you're seeing this for yourself but, even though you can't see it yet, it's changing your perception of the world in a way which is actually cleansing. Like when Neo first wakes up inside the slime-egg thing, he goes mental and doesn't believe any of it but, slowly, he learns to function with this new insight into the nature of reality. It's a painful, slow process sometimes but it will change. If solid practice, and I mean a regular routine of vipassana every single day, no matter how difficult and worthless it feels sometimes, doesn't change anything at all about your relationship to these sensations then, if you feel it necessary, seek medical attention but I really do think that this will not be the case.
The reason people on places like here and KFDh discuss this stuff is that we want to share our experiences of these stages, the heavenly and the hellish, to help people and to be helped, to openly talk about how incredibly shitty these stages of insight can truly be and to help one another to avoid making mistakes. We've all been there to some extent, have a look at my practice thread over at KFDh and you'll see what's happening in my practice right now. It's not all fun and games, sometimes it's rough but you need to be there with it as it happens to get insight regardless of how awful it feels sometimes.
Take a break, there's no rush. Maybe just work on your concentration if you still want to maintain a routine, just work at your own pace. Ideally you want to maintain a solid routine at this point but if you can't manage then don't beat yourself up over it. Do some meditation on metta, go read some Jack Kornfield, get into the more compassionate practices until you feel ready. Just remember that there's plenty of people on here who've been where you are, and if you continue to practice then you'll be able to help someone else one day and see things more clearly. Ask questions, stop feeling sorry for yourself and note like a motherfucker!
Good luck and keep us updated!
You won't end up feeling like a puppet. You'll realize through direct experience of it that you've been a puppet the entire time, vipassana is the scissors you'll use to begin cutting the strings and becoming free. I can see from your writing that you're inclined to over-intellectualize your experience of the world, but this is what's happening: You're experiencing the beginning of seeing through this whole thing. That thing you call a self is getting worried now, manifesting anxiety, fear, panic and distress as it begins to see that you're trying to loosen it's suffering-inducing grip on your experience. The choice from here is clear, you either give up and go back to normal, and there's nothing wrong with that at all, you might even come back to it when you're more psychologically ready, or you face up to the sometimes harsh realities of spiritual development, and you'll find them in every single (effective) system of attainment, realize that even these horrible, negative feeling are transient, not this "self" you think you "are", and will never satisfy you in any way. This is the way to insight, there is no other Path so clearly mapped, so verifiable and effective than the one you're treading right now. I don't want to sound too dramatic (too late!) but it's time to make a choice. If you continue then it's the A&P followed by Dark Night, if not then just do what's right for you and be honest with yourself. If you choose to stop, it's been good talking to you and I wish you well in anything life brings your way. If you choose to continue then read on.....
Don't worry to much about examining the 3C's individually, just note the sensations as they happen, if you're focusing on one part then you're missing the other two which occur and are just as important. I've made the same mistake too, Kenneth Folk recently pointed out to me that the 3C's are a conceptual framework. I thought about this quite a lot and realized that we don't note "impermanence", "Not self", or "suffering", we note sensations arise and pass, we note them as objects so they can't be this "self", and we see how no satisfaction can be had from any sensation as they don't stick around for more than a split second. That's the 3C's in real-time, not as a concept, and they can be experienced in every single sensation which can be observed. You're putting too much emphasis on the concept, and I think I'd be correct in saying that you've interpreted this in a rather nihilistic light, and not enough on the experience. Yes, there is no such thing as self beyond the sensations experienced by this "observer" on a momentary basis. Yes, all sensation will arise and pass. Yes, there is only suffering, fundamental, dualistic suffering, the ROOT of suffering (not just "thinking" you feel like shit) to be found in EVERY SINGLE sensation, no matter how lovely and sexy, violent and nauseating, depressing or manic it feels. Don't think "Oh woe is me, this world is impermanent, I have no self and don't exist, these thoughts are not the property of this self called "Jose"", Jose still exists, he's not going anywhere but you begin to see that "Jose" is actually a series of sensations, just flickering thoughts and vibrations, in the most beautiful way if you just pay attention to the goddamned sensations, not the concepts.
To stick with the Matrix metaphor, you're Neo but rather than taking the pill straight away, you're getting a quick look at what's likely to happen after you take it. Remember how I said that it's not an easy path? Well, now you're seeing this for yourself but, even though you can't see it yet, it's changing your perception of the world in a way which is actually cleansing. Like when Neo first wakes up inside the slime-egg thing, he goes mental and doesn't believe any of it but, slowly, he learns to function with this new insight into the nature of reality. It's a painful, slow process sometimes but it will change. If solid practice, and I mean a regular routine of vipassana every single day, no matter how difficult and worthless it feels sometimes, doesn't change anything at all about your relationship to these sensations then, if you feel it necessary, seek medical attention but I really do think that this will not be the case.
The reason people on places like here and KFDh discuss this stuff is that we want to share our experiences of these stages, the heavenly and the hellish, to help people and to be helped, to openly talk about how incredibly shitty these stages of insight can truly be and to help one another to avoid making mistakes. We've all been there to some extent, have a look at my practice thread over at KFDh and you'll see what's happening in my practice right now. It's not all fun and games, sometimes it's rough but you need to be there with it as it happens to get insight regardless of how awful it feels sometimes.
Take a break, there's no rush. Maybe just work on your concentration if you still want to maintain a routine, just work at your own pace. Ideally you want to maintain a solid routine at this point but if you can't manage then don't beat yourself up over it. Do some meditation on metta, go read some Jack Kornfield, get into the more compassionate practices until you feel ready. Just remember that there's plenty of people on here who've been where you are, and if you continue to practice then you'll be able to help someone else one day and see things more clearly. Ask questions, stop feeling sorry for yourself and note like a motherfucker!
Good luck and keep us updated!
Your appreciations seem always spot-on, Tommy, and I can't thank you enough for the time and attention you have put in all your responses to me. When you say that I tend to over-intellectualize you're totally right, as the people who know me personally can surely attest. I'm also prone to worrying about the worst possible outcome in any situation, as two or three situations in the past year have made me realize, so I wonder if I'm becoming an obsessive person as I grow older (maybe I'm obsessing with that too ).
Right now, I'm just trying to recover some balance so that I can decide if I can follow this path or if, at least at the moment, it's too much for me. For the moment, my mind just wants to forget everything about it and return back to "normal", but, if I start seeing this situation with a bit more detachment, then everything is possible, since I will have the experience and confidence of overcoming a situation that I suppose similar in some ways to those found in the Dark Night.
Curiously, I was thinking more or less along these lines a few minutes ago before reading your comments, and it actually looks like a less gloomy take on the subject.
Good luck with your practice, and I hope the bad stretch you're experiencing passes soon enough (by the way, though speaking from my lack of experience, your attitude of skepticism and, when in doubt, underestimating the stages seems very sensible to me, since, from what I gather, sometimes the stages or boundaries between them may be subtle and would be very easy to imagine that one is further down the path than where one really is).
).Right now, I'm just trying to recover some balance so that I can decide if I can follow this path or if, at least at the moment, it's too much for me. For the moment, my mind just wants to forget everything about it and return back to "normal", but, if I start seeing this situation with a bit more detachment, then everything is possible, since I will have the experience and confidence of overcoming a situation that I suppose similar in some ways to those found in the Dark Night.
Don't think "Oh woe is me, this world is impermanent, I have no self and don't exist, these thoughts are not the property of this self called "Jose"", Jose still exists, he's not going anywhere but you begin to see that "Jose" is actually a series of sensations, just flickering thoughts and vibrations, in the most beautiful way if you just pay attention to the goddamned sensations, not the concepts.
Curiously, I was thinking more or less along these lines a few minutes ago before reading your comments, and it actually looks like a less gloomy take on the subject.
Good luck with your practice, and I hope the bad stretch you're experiencing passes soon enough (by the way, though speaking from my lack of experience, your attitude of skepticism and, when in doubt, underestimating the stages seems very sensible to me, since, from what I gather, sometimes the stages or boundaries between them may be subtle and would be very easy to imagine that one is further down the path than where one really is).