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Scientific proof for mind reading of visual pattern when using fire kasina

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Hey there,

Daniel Ingram talked in the fire kasina book about an experience of mind reading of another guy mind created visual pattern in the air.

It sounds to me a very easy power to demonstrate in a lab. 

During a long retreat one of the meditators will draw a pattern in the air in a space with another meditatior.
After/during the meditation the meditators will draw the pattern on a page. If the patterns are the same it's a proof.
Even if it's very diffuclt to reproduce this experiment, eventually it will probaly work if you do very long retreas.

Has anyone thought about doing this experiment?

Thank you

RE: Scientific proof for mind reading of visual pattern when using fire kas
Answer
9/19/19 6:34 AM as a reply to yoni cohen.
yoni cohen:
If the patterns are the same it's a proof.


That would not prove anything at all. See this video, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ

Assuming it's not fake (which is probably is) the two drawing there are simliar but not exactly the same.

Also on a long retreat you can run the expirement many times and do it on abstract things like drawing digtis.

The chanches that the subconscious will effect the digit number that the meditators choose is extremely low if you run the expirement many times.

RE: Scientific proof for mind reading of visual pattern when using fire kas
Answer
9/21/19 11:15 AM as a reply to yoni cohen.
It's a good idea, you just need to have sufficiently tight experimental controls.  Don't know what the Derren Brown video is about, but having some professional magicians weigh in on the controls would be a good idea.

neko:
yoni cohen:
If the patterns are the same it's a proof.


That would not prove anything at all. See this video, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ
That is amazing.  I love Derren Brown. 

And brings up a good point, if you see the same visual effect as someone, it's not because you are reading their mind, but because you both had some root experience that caused that same effect in both of you. 

RE: Scientific proof for mind reading of visual pattern when using fire kas
Answer
11/4/19 8:00 PM as a reply to yoni cohen.
I came to this website to ask a similar question.  On the "Deconstructing Yourself" podcast he describes going on a meditation retreat in Scotland with two friends, drawing a shape in the air, and having his friend accurately describe its shape and color.  I don't know whether this actually happened or not, but if I had this experience myself I would probably start believing in magic/the supernatural.  And if Daniel had written down a description of this shape before asking his friend to describe it, and you could replicate that effect over and over under controlled conditions, it would be compelling scientific proof that something paranormal is going on.  On this podcast he basically says that it doesn't matter whether anything supernatural is going on in these experiences, because the effect that the experience has on you is what's really important.  I think it matters whether magic is real or not!  Has anyone seen peer-reviewed studies describing results like these?

What I most love about this clip is just how much it proves what the entire idea of this process states: we go through life having an awareness of literally everything, and yet have no idea it is being processed. Our focus is elsewhere, or up in our noggin chewing on some ridiculous future/past version of something. It's really amazing. 

My biggest curiosity with all this doesn't even have to do with mind reading - it's how dedicated practice can lead you to be aware of so much more in daily experience and actually know it is happening in real time. The expansion of awareness, or at least the capability of what you can tap into that awareness is already working on, has such potential in so many ways. 

Does an enlightened individual process awareness in the present moment moreso than an ordinary person?! I hope to find out...

T:
What I most love about this clip is just how much it proves what the entire idea of this process states: we go through life having an awareness of literally everything, and yet have no idea it is being processed. Our focus is elsewhere, or up in our noggin chewing on some ridiculous future/past version of something. It's really amazing. 

My biggest curiosity with all this doesn't even have to do with mind reading - it's how dedicated practice can lead you to be aware of so much more in daily experience and actually know it is happening in real time. The expansion of awareness, or at least the capability of what you can tap into that awareness is already working on, has such potential in so many ways. 

Does an enlightened individual process awareness in the present moment moreso than an ordinary person?! I hope to find out...


I agree with this so much.

Imagine that you were skeptical of this effect and thought that the experimental subjects might be colluding together to falsify an effect.  You get the two people together face to face. You as the experimenter take one to the side and tell them a color and a shape.  They go back over to the other person and make a series of gestures.  The other person then names the color and shape that you told the first one.  Even if they were able to do this as many times as you wanted, would you really conclude that the effect was based on something supernatural rather than information being conveyed consciously or subconsciously through their nonverbal movements?

The experience Daniel mentions does seem like it would be deeply magickal and meaningful on a personal level, and I'd love to get my practice to a point where I'm able to sync up with other people in that way.  But if there's any potential for a nonverbal exchange of information rather than people being isolated in separate rooms, I don't think there's any possible way that you could expect it to prove that something supernatural is going on.

That sort of experiment is definitely the sort of thing I dream of, and currently in conversations with the sorts of people who actually fund and study that sort of thing. So, a work in progress.

RE: Scientific proof for mind reading of visual pattern when using fire kas
Answer
11/7/19 5:51 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Wow!

You nearly got it! Information is always being processed even when we sleep. But what the average person gives attention to, or unconsciously deems important, "stands out" or is more recognizable to that person's experience.
An enlightened person has transcended their intellect. Really, nothing is less important than anything else. When the perceptual system has no bias, it is just fully turned on, paying attention to everything.
It's not really heightened awareness, because we really are aware of everything just for most, they are unconsciously not paying attention to life as it really is. 

There is however another phenomenon that is unrelated to this, which expands one's boundary of sensation past the physical, but it works on the same principle.

It's not heightened awareness, just expanded awareness.

It is also our "natural" perception that spirituality aims to bring us back to. This is the attention we had for life as children, but living in the current year deconstructs that in order to build up the "upstanding citizen of the modern era". The fascination we had as children is sometimes called being a kid at heart, wrong percept... It is not a maturity matter. You don't need a monk or any guru to tell you that life is vibrant

RE: Scientific proof for mind reading of visual pattern when using fire kas
Answer
11/9/19 7:55 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
That sort of experiment is definitely the sort of thing I dream of, and currently in conversations with the sorts of people who actually fund and study that sort of thing. So, a work in progress.

This is amazing!

Thank you for taking the risk.

-^-