How to you change core beliefs?

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Jordi, modified 1 Year ago.

How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 9/17/17 Recent Posts
When we start to meditate and observe, we start to see some patterns, personal ways of thinking, emotional reactions to diferent experencies.

We start to see behaviors of us that we like but others that don't and we feel they are limiting our self. Maybe they come from past trauma form childhood or something our environment and ourself we build experience after expirence. There is a point with meditation that can be kind of frustrating to see something but not be able to change it.

If we dig more deeper...we can see that what we are is what we belief, and these belifs modifys in a deep level how to see and preform and interact in this world.

If for exemple we have the belif that Im shy or serious or that Im not good enough that will be our paradigm and we will act according to this belief becouse is "what I am". One of the benefits of doing some no-dual technique is experiencing a deep insight in no-self. Then the ilusion of the I bansih, and we can see that we are made of little pieces that merge togheter creating the ilusion of an independent I. Is a frist step to see that we are not a fixed entity, that there is space for flexibility...a frist taste of freedom.

Meditation help me a lot to be more easy on what I think or I belif of myself and even change some belif, but that's been very random and I didnt have "power" over the changes, they just happen.

So I open this post if someone know some kind of efficient and pragmatic practice, technique, method, book that goes directly to change our core belif system. It can be whatever not only focused on meditation practices. Let's see if we can recolect some data that can be usefull for anyone that is interested on this topic.


For what I experienced so far, working with metta helped me to change myself quite a lot.
Working with self-love, gratitude, aceptance. Is more about evoking these feelings and sensations in the body. Is diferent the feeling of love than gratitude or confidence. They have diferent qualities. Two years ago I did some deep and serious work on these and had deep changes on me, but as I said was very random. I could take out a lot of sadness, resentments and anger out. And feel more in peace and easy with myself, more integrated. Doing this not only brings changes inside but also outside, new experiences arrised to solidify this new inner view, some with more challenge other more like gifts.

This is what I can contribute. Im interested in Jung and archetypes, do you think is a good way to keep diging on that topic? Anyways I am open to anything that is useful!
neko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 756 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
Manipulating one's own beliefs can take quite a bit of work. This is how I do it in seven steps.

Step one is to really spend a long time understanding why people believe the things that they do from the inside, that is, how they explain it to themselves. If you ask a left-wing person what a right-wing person believes in and why, or what a "pro-life" person what a "pro-choice" person believes and why, in the vast majority of cases you will get answers that are completely different from what the other person would actually say. This is because when we think that we are trying to understand why others hold different ideas, for the most part what we are actually trying to do is cement our own beliefs.

Step two is getting to the point where you would be able to have a discussion and defend this new belief very well. If you catch yourself being sarcastic and making a mockery out of this new belief, instead of giving the strongest argument that you can in favour of it, then you are doing it wrong. Go back to step one. You don't need to have actual conversations to do this. It is enough to run an argument in your own mind.

Notice that steps one and two are different from so-called "steelmanning". With steelmanning, your goal is to honestly find the weakest points in the opposite belief, which is fair and fine, but not what we are doing here. In this case, your goal is to honestly find the strongest points in the opposite belief.

Step three is, once you feel that you have formed a good picture of what the belief structure is, and what its strong arguments are, you should be able to identify the fact that, at the root of every belief system, there is a set of values. This is where it gets tricky, because, as a rule, values are pretty arbitrary. If you have been doing the exercise right, this step can be pretty disorienting. This is usually when you discover the actual reasons you were holding the beliefs that you started with, and see the ways in which your original beliefs are bollocks. This is where ideas of "right" and "wrong" get replaced with meta-ideas of networks of tribal affiliations and identities, archetypes, and stuff like that. This is also where you start to see all the ways that the belief that you are working on actually makes sense.

Once you have step three down, you can start working on step four, the actual belief manipulation. Whenever you are faced with a thought or a situation which calls into question the two competing beliefs that you are working on, you intentionally go back through steps 3-1 in reverse order: Identify the arbitariness of your starting values (3), anchor on the new values, run through an internal debate in which you rationalise the opposite view (2), until you are finally able to actually inhabit the new belief system from the inside (1).

Once you have done step four for long enough, you will gradually come to a direct experience of what it feels like to wear the new belief system. This is step five. You really have to feel in your guts what it is like to be a communist, a fascist, a pro-lifer, a pro-choicer, a scientific rationalist, a Muslim fundamentalist, a feminist, a man's rights activist, and so on.

Step six. Once you have step five down, it is time to review and decide what you want to do with this experience. Generally speaking, you have three options:

a) Go back to the starting belief system.

b) Hold on to the new one.

c) Alternate between them depending on context.

Step seven is choosing a new belief, and working on that.

This is very long and hard work, but each cycle makes the next one easier.
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Jordi, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 9/17/17 Recent Posts
Neko! Thanks for your reply.

I see is a more rational apporach at least at the frist steps, I think that great! Looks like a way to slwoly decrese the power of old belif and replace for other ones that you choose via thinking/inner argument and then feeling good and solid with the new "meta".


Hi Shargol!
The buddhist answer would be you have to experience the discomfort/pain of the beliefs you want to change.

The psychological addition is that you also have to understand why the original beliefs were useful at the time.


So seeing the "why" of the past and the "dukka" of the present... you are ripe for change and it sort of happens effortlessly.


I think I understand what you point. Experiencing, be able to open the discomfort and pain that generates these belifs will create some kind of purification. Its good to note that. If we run away from tha pain and we just want to replace them probably will be artificial or we will fail in establish a new fundation. We will create a shadow that will haunt us.

I think is like a double process, you evoke ( or wait it to apper organiclly) that belif that you feel is limitating you, allow the emotions and feelings to arrise, be able to feel them with compassion but at the same time having a clear image of what direction you want to transmute that energy.

About the pyschological addition I think you are talking about defense mechanisms, right? "If I am or perform that way is becouse in some way this behaivor protects me and is the safer option I found in the past." Be able to see that these defense mechanism is obsolete and we dont need it, will be a big step for transformation. We can cast gratitude for the service done and move on with our new vision of ourself.

Do you have more resources on that way of working? It will be helpfull! emoticon



I started digging with archetypes and I found these videos, very well done. Its about the four archetype: The lover, The king, The warrior and The magician. The frist video explains a little the theory. They are based on the work of Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette's book King, Warrior, Magician, Lover.


Archetype of The lover
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOis3-phW8Q&list=PLNwwHxpB-dkzeeyLTJKco49tokvT25dt3&index=4

Archetype of the Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlKuE7jm0WM&list=PLNwwHxpB-dkzeeyLTJKco49tokvT25dt3&index=2

Archetype of the King
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pOnHjRK7BU&list=PLNwwHxpB-dkzeeyLTJKco49tokvT25dt3&index=1


Archetype of the Magician

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4unDD4OUUNQ&list=PLNwwHxpB-dkzeeyLTJKco49tokvT25dt3&index=3
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Jordi:

About the pyschological addition I think you are talking about defense mechanisms, right? "If I am or perform that way is becouse in some way this behaivor protects me and is the safer option I found in the past." Be able to see that these defense mechanism is obsolete and we dont need it, will be a big step for transformation. We can cast gratitude for the service done and move on with our new vision of ourself.

Do you have more resources on that way of working? It will be helpfull! emoticon


You got it, exactly right. 

Here's an approach for this kind of way of working, within the meditation context: https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-ii-light-and-shadows/22-harnessing-the-energy-of-the-defilements/
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spatial, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 609 Join Date: 5/20/18 Recent Posts
neko, thanks for sharing your seven-step process. I have been recently struggling to empathize with certain people who have radically different beliefs than I. This has given me a lot to play around with today.
neko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 756 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
spatial:
neko, thanks for sharing your seven-step process. I have been recently struggling to empathize with certain people who have radically different beliefs than I. This has given me a lot to play around with today.


Glad you find it useful. Very curious to hear if and how it actually works for you in practice emoticon 
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
The buddhist answer would be you have to experience the discomfort/pain of the beliefs you want to change.

The psychological addition is that you also have to understand why the original beliefs were useful at the time.


So seeing the "why" of the past and the "dukka" of the present... you are ripe for change and it sort of happens effortlessly.
neko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 756 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
shargrol:
The buddhist answer would be you have to experience the discomfort/pain of the beliefs you want to change.
Yeah, right. Problem is...

* The Buddhist answer to "how do I fix a punctured bicycle tyre?" is to experience the suffering of riding on a bicycle with a punctured tyre.

* The Buddhist answer to "does the Earth orbit the Sun or vice versa?" is to experience the suffering of orbiting a celestial body.

Not very useful. Like all religions, Buddhism only has one belief manipulation technology, that is, how to convert more people to Buddhism.

Exercise for you: Learn to wear the belief that the Four Noble Truths are bollocks.
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I actually deeply disagree with you neko. I truly believe that people do not change their views unless they see the discomfort associated with them. 
neko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 756 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
shargrol:
I truly believe that people do not change their views unless they see the discomfort associated with them. 

Sure, but we are talking about belief manipulation here. So the question is, are you able to truly believe the opposite of what you just stated?
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
neko:
shargrol:
I truly believe that people do not change their views unless they see the discomfort associated with them. 

Sure, but we are talking about belief manipulation here. So the question is, are you able to truly believe the opposite of what you just stated?

Not unless I saw the discomfort associated with the former belief. emoticon
neko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 756 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
shargrol:
neko:
shargrol:
I truly believe that people do not change their views unless they see the discomfort associated with them. 

Sure, but we are talking about belief manipulation here. So the question is, are you able to truly believe the opposite of what you just stated?

Not unless I saw the discomfort associated with the former belief. emoticon

If you are a good Buddhist, you should see discomfort associated with everything, though! emoticon 
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
neko:
shargrol:
neko:
shargrol:
I truly believe that people do not change their views unless they see the discomfort associated with them. 

Sure, but we are talking about belief manipulation here. So the question is, are you able to truly believe the opposite of what you just stated?

Not unless I saw the discomfort associated with the former belief. emoticon

If you are a good Buddhist, you should see discomfort associated with everything, though! emoticon 

I'm a _really_ good buddhist who finds no discomfort in dharma emoticon
neko, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 756 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
shargrol:
neko:
shargrol:
neko:
shargrol:
I truly believe that people do not change their views unless they see the discomfort associated with them. 

Sure, but we are talking about belief manipulation here. So the question is, are you able to truly believe the opposite of what you just stated?

Not unless I saw the discomfort associated with the former belief. emoticon

If you are a good Buddhist, you should see discomfort associated with everything, though! emoticon 

I'm a _really_ good buddhist who finds no discomfort in dharma emoticon

...and that was your post #1000! emoticon
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 1529 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
emoticon emoticon emoticon
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Noah D, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 1124 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
My personal experience aligns with Shargrol's renunciation/buddhist view, fwiw.  Assuming one's aim is to be happy (not just any type of belief manipulation).
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Griffin, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: How to you change core beliefs?

Posts: 139 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
I recommend an excellent book called "Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for dummies". It presents psychological exersices whose ultimate goal is changing your core negative beliefs.

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