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Help me map - Stream Entry??

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Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/5/19 2:08 PM
I've been practicing from books, specifically MCTB2 and Practical Insight Meditation, doing Mahasistyle noting as my primary practice technique. Secondary practices are concentration states with the breath as an object, metta to brighten things up, and more wide open vipassana when it seems appropriate; typically in what I'm mapping as equanimity or higher. A big limitation of my practice is not having a teacher and not going on retreat, and I'm hoping that by dipping my toe into the DhO I'll get some experienced eyes on my reports of my practice. My heartfeltthanks to all of you for reading and writing!

I think I hit SE on Oct 7 2019, so about 1 month ago. I began practicing according to the path outlined in MCTB/MCTB2 around October 2017. Oct 2017-present I estimate I put in around 1000-1300 hours of formal sitting practice, and some larger amount of less formal practice. More recently that's 90min-4hours of formal sits per day at home, in the past more like 30mins to 1 hour of formal sits. It's a constant balance between frying myself and making progress that varies with the part of the path that's happening. I'm going to try and be as brief as possible but please ask questions and I'm happy to answer in detail. I'm going to focus on phenomenology, raptures, and various perceptual shifts because MCTB2 seems to think these are best for diagnostic purposes.

The overall plan was to get some basic concentration skills, developgreat noting technique and reality test this stuff. I'm working mostly with Ingram's model of awakening which isn't as neurotic about defilements as the Theravada, but they're more or less functionally identical for 1st path purposes anyways.

I think I entered n11, equanimity, in around late fall 2018, and ended up staying there for ~500 hours of formal sitting practice. There were just a million cul-de-sacs I had to go down and learn from. A big shift happened when I dropped the effort dramatically. I was moving attention with lots of energy across all six sense doors as if by moving the noting fast enough somehow I could catch enough sensations that reality would flip and understand itself and I'd “get SE”. I knew intellectually this was the wrong approach but it's easier said than done and it took a long time to back away and let things happen in the right way; I'd had a lot of success powering things through to get to equanimity which made some unskillful habits deeply ingrained. At some point, the noting itself became totally effortless and went “out there.” The image I have is of a bunny where its nose is twitching almost out of sync with rest of its body, it's as if attention was just attending to the primary object (tip of my nose) on its own, without “me” doing anything at all. Once the noting went “out there,”and seemed to proceed on its own, practice became more relaxing and sustainable and I was able to not try. Over the next say 20-30 hours of practice the divisions between sense doors and what was inside andoutside got more and more confused; though none of this was particularly intense or even exciting and I had no particular expectation that I was making progress relative to the previous 500 hours I'd spent farting around equanimity. During one sit I felt particularly weird and I'm not sure exactly what happened. I remember more vividly getting up from the sit and staring into the mirror and just thinking “holy shit that was intense” and breathing out of my mouth a few times to calm down. Reality seemed extraordinarily vivid and intense, but crazy shit happens all the time meditating so I didn't think too much of it. At the time of the sit I didn't feel that experience was “cut off like a creeper” or anything like that, I didn't have a clear sense of conformity knowledge, path knowledge, and I didn't have an experience or memory of the 3 doors or fruition. Given I was expecting to have some of these experiences it didn't cross my mind that I had just stream entered until the following day.

The vividness of reality didn't go away. Also, the mind seemed to have a new found clarity and calmness to it that made the mad rush of sensations coming in bearable and exciting. This all happened to an extreme degree and it became apparent that something was different. The mind wanted to just immediately and effortlessly do insight. During an ~80min sit the following day I went from the A&P through all the nanas into another weirdo equanimity state that I'm now thinking is probably fruition. Given that traversing this territory took ~1200 hours the first time; going over it in 80min was awesome and made me think “well, maybe that was SE after all”. Some of the nanas were experienced a bit fancier than the first time around, for example in Reobservation I'd have some mental images of being pulled down a dark watery hole by a giant squid and less physical pain or mental pain. The A&P would sometimes go purely visual and manifest as a giant very fast vibrating cross made up of points of light across the whole visual field. In n11+ things got even more open and effortless, there was a very clear high state that only lasted a few seconds where reality seemed very “clear” and all 6 sense doors seemed kind of experienced at once in a balanced way. Then after that things just get confusing and I have no idea what happens next except stuff happens. This goes on for some unobserved amount of time, and then the visual field and other senses pop back and are recognized in roughly the normal way and an intense energy/bliss wave blasts through the body and that's it. Then things are quiet, relaxed and malleable for awhile, concentration states are easy but not that interesting, and eventually the A&P comes again. Taking the term from MCTB2, I took to calling this post path state “Ferrari brain”-- really fun and kinda crazy, doesn't turn off.

Over the next week or 10 days cycling like this happened continuously. The cycles would go fast when I was formal sitting, and slower when I was doing normal daily life things,and very slow if I was say in a crowded bar with music blaring. Intentions wise, I tried to mix it up between hardcore Mahasi style investigation and chilling out. During formal sits I'd try and investigate the sensations in equanimity that led to the end of these cycles and perhaps fruitions. I was never able to clearly experience the three doors. I don't know when equanimity ends, a door begins and ends, and when a fruition starts and ends. I was only able to investigate equanimity up to a certain point, after which all of the sensations seemed to go off and do their own thing all at once, and“I” was almost zoning out. A couple of cycles I thought I might have felt almost a “bubble” in the swirling of sensation that may have been a fruition but I'm not confident. Even so, I started mapping this part of the path to Review because of the Ferrari brain effect, the quick cycling of nanas both on and off the cushion, the strange experiences leading to the bliss wave at the end of each cycle, the starting of cycles at the A&P, and the astonishing confidence, speed, and control going through the nanas.

During review of first path I was able to linger in a given nana however long I wanted on the cushion when concentration was strong, but I wasn't able to jump to a given nana or subnana at will out of order. I wasn't able to control duration I don't think although the fruition-y state seemed to last different amounts of time as measured by my clock.

It's also worth mentioning this part of the path was just wonderful and as MCTB2 says, made the A&P feel like “dry toast”. I spent a lot of time taking random walks, talking to friends, and just low effort human-ing and watching reality do its thing. There seems to be a sustained reduction in suffering and sensations are perceived differently, though there is still very much a center. I felt very enthusiastic about practice, that I had gotten something, and that doing the higher paths now or sometime soon was a great idea. Cycles would happen in as short as 30mins, stopped counting them at some point. After around 7-10 days various shortcomings of the path became apparent. Not so much consciously via reflection, it just kinda happened. Still grasping, still acenter etc. In hindsight maybe this was mind and body of second path (there's a bit of disagreement here between MCTB2 and PIM, Mahasi says 2nd+ paths begin at the A&P while Ingram says they start at Mind and Body. This seems very unimportant and mostly a matter of terminology). More dukkha kind of crept into the field of experience and cycling seemed less attractive and amazing. At some point a formal sit resulted in some wide, thick, syrupy vibrations in the center at the rate of 3-6 per second that seemed different and more clear. Around this point the cycling stopped. Shortly thereafter (say a couple hours of practice) got some body shaking action, loads of centered energy and a much different version of the A&P with the double dip shift that I had read about but didn't experience in 1st path or any of the review cycles. Since then I've been off to the races on 2nd path, currently ping-ponging between various subnanas of equanimity and reobservation (I think), which sucks a lot but so it goes. The cycling action is gone now and the experience of sitting is similar to what 1st path was like-- have to sit with a given nana for as long as it takes until it's “understood”and integrated.

I didn't get stuck in between paths and didn't consciously feel that I had the opportunity to keep reviewing first or push forward with second. I just didn't make any formal resolutions really and let reality unfold and do its thing and when the shortcomings of first became apparent, second path just started and I went with it. I think this might have been because I was feeling incredibly confident and happy in the glow of completing first and felt on top of the world. It might have been a good idea in hindsight to let review last a lot longer but that wasn't an option at the time. 

So, questions. Does this sound like SE? My rough plan (constantly subject to change and reality testing) is to keep doing what I'm doing until 2nd path, then probably take a fairly long time improving concentration skills in preparation for 3rd. Mahasi and Ingram both seem to think some serious concentration is near indispensable for 3rd+. I'm trying to remedy my solitude problem by making this post and finding some online Dharma discussion, and by going on retreat in the fairly near future (example, https://www.dharma.org/retreats/548). I have various hangups about mainstream meditation culture only exacerbated by reading MCTB2 and various pride problems since reading and practicing at home has been such an amazing and rewarding adventure so far. I also have moderate back issues and meditating in excruciating pain for a week doesn't seem fun or productive. On the other hand, it seems weird and narcissistic to just sit like a hermit forever and spin narratives about my own attainments, so I should probably get over it at some point and I probably will.

My thanks again for anyone who hastaken the time to read or respond. To quote my man Tolstoy, “A man is never such an egotist as at moments of spiritual ecstasy. At such times it seems to him that there is nothing on earth more splendid and interesting than himself.” Heh.

Apologies for spelling/grammar, I typed this out on a word processor first and cutting/pasting wreaked havoc with it.  I've tried to make it fairly readable.  

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/9/19 7:50 PM as a reply to Ben Sulsky.
Good luck mapping Stream Entry. I have lost access to the jhanas and therefore lost my stream entry claim.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/19/19 10:54 PM as a reply to Ben Sulsky.
Those are wonderful experiences, powerful concentration, and some purification. But still not an access into SE.

SE is not just an experience from samadhi/jhanas, you see many people who claim SE and afterwards they coming back to the old life.
Transformation means not just a temporary changes.

If it is just a samadhi experience, a lot have achieved them in the time Buddha hasnt borned, the ascetics, those brahmans.

SE is the one who sees nibbana, directly, some through experience, some through direct knowledge. What they seen is a process of life, how "you" and "I" come into beings, when one of the supporting element is off, the "I" is gone too, it is the truth about life, not an attainment actually. And his life process put the stopping of "I" exist or nibbana as the highest and moving into that direction , thats why he is called stream-enterer.

To proceed your practice, you should look direct into how you experience things , the process, where "I" was borned, and the cessation, and the way leading to it. Dependant Origination is what Buddha says and put it into words according to his times, how about yours?

When you understand the whole process of life, thats when you see "you" is just a delusion, and you start moving into the 8 noble paths, to live in a life where no "I" 24hours, which maybe for the current you can do that only a few times a day. Thats when you are a stream enterer, not just about how your experience in samadhi, which is already the past, living in the past is dukkha.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/20/19 1:50 AM as a reply to Ben Sulsky.
You seem to have a great practise going on. Diagnosing a complete stranger from a written description only is really hazardous. I cannot tell whether or not you reached SE. I would personally be skeptical of the experience if I were unable to observe anything leading up to and back from cessations. Fruitions are not equanimous states. They are non-experiences, blips of unconsciousness, but the moments leading up to them and following them are important. It is possible to reach a junction point similar to review in phenomenology before actually reaching SE, which can be quite confusing. That happened to me. 

Best wishes for your practice and wellbeing.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/23/19 3:01 PM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:
Those are wonderful experiences, powerful concentration, and some purification. But still not an access into SE.

SE is not just an experience from samadhi/jhanas, you see many people who claim SE and afterwards they coming back to the old life.
Transformation means not just a temporary changes.

If it is just a samadhi experience, a lot have achieved them in the time Buddha hasnt borned, the ascetics, those brahmans.

SE is the one who sees nibbana, directly, some through experience, some through direct knowledge. What they seen is a process of life, how "you" and "I" come into beings, when one of the supporting element is off, the "I" is gone too, it is the truth about life, not an attainment actually. And his life process put the stopping of "I" exist or nibbana as the highest and moving into that direction , thats why he is called stream-enterer.

To proceed your practice, you should look direct into how you experience things , the process, where "I" was borned, and the cessation, and the way leading to it. Dependant Origination is what Buddha says and put it into words according to his times, how about yours?

When you understand the whole process of life, thats when you see "you" is just a delusion, and you start moving into the 8 noble paths, to live in a life where no "I" 24hours, which maybe for the current you can do that only a few times a day. Thats when you are a stream enterer, not just about how your experience in samadhi, which is already the past, living in the past is dukkha.

Thank you for the reply Henry.  Just to be clear, the models of awakening I'm working with at the moment are the Ingram ("12" path)/Mahasi (theravada) models which seem to be functionally similar for 1st path purposes.  I like these maps because the unfolding of the nanas predicted in the maps seem to match experience.  The 3 characteristics/6 sense doors combined with mapping has seemed to lead to good stuff happening.

From reading your post I get the feeling you think my descriptions of experiences match samadhi experiences but not vipassana experiences.  That's definitely not what I think I'm doing.  I think of vipassana as concentration + 3Cs.  It's of course entirely possible what I've been doing the whole time is concentration and I mistakenly think I'm doing insight, but this would be really surprising.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/23/19 4:20 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
You seem to have a great practise going on. Diagnosing a complete stranger from a written description only is really hazardous. I cannot tell whether or not you reached SE. I would personally be skeptical of the experience if I were unable to observe anything leading up to and back from cessations. Fruitions are not equanimous states. They are non-experiences, blips of unconsciousness, but the moments leading up to them and following them are important. It is possible to reach a junction point similar to review in phenomenology before actually reaching SE, which can be quite confusing. That happened to me. 

Best wishes for your practice and wellbeing.

Than you for the thoughtful reply Linda.  Your take seems very reasonable and mature to me. 

"Diagnosing a complete stranger from a written description only is really hazardous." -> Apparently!  I'm pretty unfamiliar with the various taboos surrounding talk about attaintments, which likely contributes to me putting my foot in my mouth.  Repeatedly.  

"I cannot tell whether or not you reached SE. I would personally be skeptical of the experience if I were unable to observe anything leading up to and back from cessations."--> Agreed.  I tried to pay special attention to including disconfirmatory phenomenology into my post; as Ingram said, it's way worse to think you've got SE and be wrong than it is to have SE and think you don't.  Further channeling Ingram the pragmatist-- the maps are useful insofar as they facilitate good practice and awakening.  In my particular case we can imagine two outcomes (1) yes SE or (2) no SE.  In both cases the practice methodology extending into the future is identical, keep investigating the 3Cs at the 6 sense doors and see what happens next. 

Since I really like mapping methodology, I'll talk for a bit about how I've mapped in the past.  So, obviously if I'm here going on about SE then I think I've gone through the A&P previously, so I'll talk about how I mapped that progression.  So it's Fall 2018, I've been reading MCTB2 and practicing.  I'm verbally fast noting Mahasi style.  At ~10-12 notes/second it's too fast for verbal noting so I get nonverbal to push the speedfactor.  I feel awful and my body hurts like hell and is twisty, and my throat feels hot and tight and speed varies with phase of breath.  Could we get any more n3 than that?  I don't think so.  This goes on with increasing intensity for like 200 hours of practice and I'm feeling suitably discouraged.  At one point I try slow verbal noting at like ~1/second during all my waking hours where I'm not doing something really high intensity.  After about 10 days of this I do my normal vipassana sit and start shaking all over the place uncontrollably and it feels like a massive amount of energy has been released.  There isn't an A&P moment that's investigated.  I don't act (more than usual) like a maniac after.  But it feels like something important happened and reality feels very vivid and there's a feeling of relief after, particularly memorable is a hike with a bunch of fall colors that weekend.  Mapping wise, after the session where kriyas come out of nowhere I reflect "wow, kriyas came out of nowhere, noting speed varied with phase of breath, and big stuff seemed to happen, maybe that was the A&P", but I also catalogue the stuff that was absent, "no double dip state shift, no defined A&P moment, maybe not as dramatic as A&P was supposed to be, I don't feel like an ecstactic maniac etc etc" so I have some level of confidence >0% and <100% about where I am.  So I refer back to the maps and read about dissolution, if dissolution happens next I'll increase confidence a bit.  But since words only point at this stuff, it seems entirely possible to have good intentions to map accurately and still misinterpret a variety of stages in succession to map yourself somewhere you aren't, and this is a problem.  Mistakes compound.  I'm not going to go on forever, but over time the dark night stages seemed to kind of unroll as expected and so I gradually increased my confidence that said period was the A&P, because it functioned like the A&P.  It was interesting to go through (much much later) both the A&Ps in review (more like shamatha states) and the 2nd path A&P which had different phenomenology and most notably had the double dip state shift at the end of the out breath which was a real surprise.  Again, over time I kinda gradually contextualized this stuff.  Is this helpful for practice over and above paying attention to the 3Cs and 6 sense doors and getting good enough noting technique?  Uhmmmm I'm not sure, I happen to have a shitload of energy and basically can't help doing more reflecting and analysis than is necessary for speedy progress.  Some quote from Ingram about a rice farmer kicking the ass of some pontificating intellectual feels relevant here emoticon

You make a particularly intriguing suggestion, "It is possible to reach a junction point similar to review in phenomenology, before actually reaching SE, which can be quite confusing.  That happened to me."  This seems explanatory and is possibility I hadn't really considered.  I'm not saying I didn't go through conformity/3doors/fruition, but I am saying that large parts of this territory (if it was this territory) were not capable of being clearly investigated either in path or review which leaves many question marks.   

Finally, just as regards the tone of the original post describing SE experience, I wrote it some weeks after possible SE when in possible 2nd path dark night territory.  This led to an offputting affect of tons of energy and an overly solemn attitude towards the whole thing.  

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/23/19 5:27 PM as a reply to Ben Sulsky.
Thankyou for your kind words!

I share your appreciation of the maps and fascination with regard to the phenomenology. I love exploring the terrain regardless of its significance or insignificance for awakening. I can think of worse hobbies. emoticon

Daniel mentions that junction in this vimeo: https://vimeo.com/69475208. It is the post 8th junction point. I'm not saying that you didn't reach SE, just to be clear. I just found it very useful to learn about that junction point myself. So far I seem to go through it before I reach a path moment, as that happened both before SE and before second path. The first time it happened it was confusing because I suddenly had amazing jhanic access and tremendous control of the nanas. I could wake up in a horrible darknight state in the morning and meditate myself into equanimity in twenty minutes, and that would last my whole work day, at least if I took a ten minute meditation pause somewhere in the middle. I seemed to reach that point over and over again. Meditation happened on its own when I tried to sleep or just relaxed for a moment. The nanas seemed different in those phases too. They were more jhanic and the clarity was much greater than before.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/24/19 6:00 AM as a reply to Henry wijaya.
Henry wijaya:
Those are wonderful experiences, powerful concentration, and some purification. But still not an access into SE.

SE is not just an experience from samadhi/jhanas, you see many people who claim SE and afterwards they coming back to the old life.
Transformation means not just a temporary changes.

If it is just a samadhi experience, a lot have achieved them in the time Buddha hasnt borned, the ascetics, those brahmans.

SE is the one who sees nibbana, directly, some through experience, some through direct knowledge. What they seen is a process of life, how "you" and "I" come into beings, when one of the supporting element is off, the "I" is gone too, it is the truth about life, not an attainment actually. And his life process put the stopping of "I" exist or nibbana as the highest and moving into that direction , thats why he is called stream-enterer.

To proceed your practice, you should look direct into how you experience things , the process, where "I" was borned, and the cessation, and the way leading to it. Dependant Origination is what Buddha says and put it into words according to his times, how about yours?

When you understand the whole process of life, thats when you see "you" is just a delusion, and you start moving into the 8 noble paths, to live in a life where no "I" 24hours, which maybe for the current you can do that only a few times a day. Thats when you are a stream enterer, not just about how your experience in samadhi, which is already the past, living in the past is dukkha.

Everyone comes back to their old life, but if they have actually achieved SE, then they will never come back to the old self they lived that life with. Neither will they be perfect. SE is just the bottom rung on an increasingly demanding ladder. They must continually achieve fruition, and do so rapidly, remaining in it for an hour or more in order to consolidate the insight that made them an SE. 

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/24/19 6:57 AM as a reply to David Kyle Spencer.
Why would one have to remain in fruition for an hour or more? As far as I have heard, that is very rare.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/24/19 7:14 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Why would one have to remain in fruition for an hour or more? As far as I have heard, that is very rare.
http://dharmatreasure.org/wp-content/uploads/Meditation-and-Insight-III.pdf
If, following the Review, the meditator continues to practice, they will experience the Attainment of Fruition, which is a repetition of Fruition Knowledge. Having just reviewed the events leading to Emergence, they will often reach Fruition in exactly the same way they did the first time, the only difference being that it can last much longer. The Attainment of Fruition is a complete cessation (Nibbana), so there is obviously no awareness of bodily and mental processes. (Although this does change with the attainment of the higher stages of Awakening.) It is important for the meditator to practice achieving fruition, achieving it rapidly, and remaining in it for periods of up to an hour or more. This not only consolidates the Insight that has made them a Stream Enterer, it prepares them for attainment of the next Path. Some people have been known to proceed from First Path (Stream Entry) to Second Path (Once Returner) and even Third Path (Non-returner) in a single sitting. For most though, a period of maturation on each Path will be required before they are ready to proceed to the next. When they are ready, they will repeat the Progress of Insight, usually beginning with Part IIa.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/24/19 7:23 AM as a reply to David Kyle Spencer.
It says up to an hour or more.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
11/25/19 12:20 PM as a reply to David Kyle Spencer.
David Kyle Spencer:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Why would one have to remain in fruition for an hour or more? As far as I have heard, that is very rare.
http://dharmatreasure.org/wp-content/uploads/Meditation-and-Insight-III.pdf
If, following the Review, the meditator continues to practice, they will experience the Attainment of Fruition, which is a repetition of Fruition Knowledge. Having just reviewed the events leading to Emergence, they will often reach Fruition in exactly the same way they did the first time, the only difference being that it can last much longer. The Attainment of Fruition is a complete cessation (Nibbana), so there is obviously no awareness of bodily and mental processes. (Although this does change with the attainment of the higher stages of Awakening.) It is important for the meditator to practice achieving fruition, achieving it rapidly, and remaining in it for periods of up to an hour or more. This not only consolidates the Insight that has made them a Stream Enterer, it prepares them for attainment of the next Path. Some people have been known to proceed from First Path (Stream Entry) to Second Path (Once Returner) and even Third Path (Non-returner) in a single sitting. For most though, a period of maturation on each Path will be required before they are ready to proceed to the next. When they are ready, they will repeat the Progress of Insight, usually beginning with Part IIa.

Yea this seems very much in the spirit of Mahasi style hardcore investigation and thanks for the take.  I am obviously a fan, but with some caveats,

Mahasi is, to put it mildly, a pretty impressive human who is really good at vipassana and other stuff too.  These monks also have optimal practice conditions.

Here's a (lighthearted) analogy: say we were reading Lebron James' book of basketball hoop entry.  Making an open layup entry is really important, so we practice to try and do that.  Then Lebron, thinking he's being helpful, says "hey, now that you've made an open layup, consolidate that skill and try a dunk.  Heck, maybe try a one arm windmill dunk over 7'1 Rudy Gobert, why not!  Me and LA Lakers sangha do that stuff all the time!"  Seems like we can simultaneously feel a lot of muditta for Lebron and also think it seems kinda disempowering to beat ourselves up if we can't elevate over Rudy.

The corollary being to develop basic skills within the messy karma of householder life.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
12/2/19 2:03 AM as a reply to Ben Sulsky.
Ben Sulsky:
Henry wijaya:
Those are wonderful experiences, powerful concentration, and some purification. But still not an access into SE.

SE is not just an experience from samadhi/jhanas, you see many people who claim SE and afterwards they coming back to the old life.
Transformation means not just a temporary changes.

If it is just a samadhi experience, a lot have achieved them in the time Buddha hasnt borned, the ascetics, those brahmans.

SE is the one who sees nibbana, directly, some through experience, some through direct knowledge. What they seen is a process of life, how "you" and "I" come into beings, when one of the supporting element is off, the "I" is gone too, it is the truth about life, not an attainment actually. And his life process put the stopping of "I" exist or nibbana as the highest and moving into that direction , thats why he is called stream-enterer.

To proceed your practice, you should look direct into how you experience things , the process, where "I" was borned, and the cessation, and the way leading to it. Dependant Origination is what Buddha says and put it into words according to his times, how about yours?

When you understand the whole process of life, thats when you see "you" is just a delusion, and you start moving into the 8 noble paths, to live in a life where no "I" 24hours, which maybe for the current you can do that only a few times a day. Thats when you are a stream enterer, not just about how your experience in samadhi, which is already the past, living in the past is dukkha.

Thank you for the reply Henry.  Just to be clear, the models of awakening I'm working with at the moment are the Ingram ("12" path)/Mahasi (theravada) models which seem to be functionally similar for 1st path purposes.  I like these maps because the unfolding of the nanas predicted in the maps seem to match experience.  The 3 characteristics/6 sense doors combined with mapping has seemed to lead to good stuff happening.

From reading your post I get the feeling you think my descriptions of experiences match samadhi experiences but not vipassana experiences.  That's definitely not what I think I'm doing.  I think of vipassana as concentration + 3Cs.  It's of course entirely possible what I've been doing the whole time is concentration and I mistakenly think I'm doing insight, but this would be really surprising.

I apologized if I get your expectation down, but if you really want to be SE, its a samma ditthi must be fixed first, not samadhi
.
Experiences must be thrown away however wonderful they are for you to transfrom, else they become your new karma, which makes you more proud of yourself, some even managed to cover their ego so deep that makes them more "angelic" outside but more cunning inside thus the self is strengthen, when the identity self is so strong how could it possibly be enlightment?

Dont seek experience. Seek the truth, anicca, anatta, dukkha. Then see what it's mean to be borned, not your body birth, but your 'self'. Body is definitely caught in time and space, but not the 'self'. This 'I' is the one create dukha. Be unshakeable in the truth, you'll see you wont need anybody judgment because those are outside the truth. You will still be SE even the world says you're a nutcase, because you seen the dhamma.

SE is the ladder created by Buddha, which means you should be in the path can walk many paths out there to realize the truth that there is no self, no experiences, no existence. But if you choose Buddha way , then you should know the 4 noble truth and walk the 8 fold noble path.
Dont claim your attainment, but still engage in sensual pleasure, entertainment or low moral behaviour, which makes you seems like a lunatic for those who walk the path intensely , usually most of them are quiet, because these world is the Phassa - contact for them is not the truth, they live in solitude mostly, which is the truth

Show people your understanding of depedent origination, where you seen the tanha, upadana, bhava. Bhava Nirodho Nibbanam, which means nibbana occurs when the being ( the 'I') is gone.
Walk the 8fold noble path, dedicate your entire life , or at least make nibbana your priority, then you are an SE, no need other to clarify.

Mostly people attain SE from samma ditthi, its like the direction , if the direction is set , then like a log thrown into the river will flow to the sea. Look into the sutta, but be careful as the translation sometimes mis leading, you need to be ehipasiko

May you attain your SE as soon as possible

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
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12/3/19 1:40 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Thankyou for your kind words!

I share your appreciation of the maps and fascination with regard to the phenomenology. I love exploring the terrain regardless of its significance or insignificance for awakening. I can think of worse hobbies. emoticon

Daniel mentions that junction in this vimeo: https://vimeo.com/69475208. It is the post 8th junction point. I'm not saying that you didn't reach SE, just to be clear. I just found it very useful to learn about that junction point myself. So far I seem to go through it before I reach a path moment, as that happened both before SE and before second path. The first time it happened it was confusing because I suddenly had amazing jhanic access and tremendous control of the nanas. I could wake up in a horrible darknight state in the morning and meditate myself into equanimity in twenty minutes, and that would last my whole work day, at least if I took a ten minute meditation pause somewhere in the middle. I seemed to reach that point over and over again. Meditation happened on its own when I tried to sleep or just relaxed for a moment. The nanas seemed different in those phases too. They were more jhanic and the clarity was much greater than before.

Hi Linda, thank you for another very helpful post emoticon  I watched Daniel's vimeo carefully today, and I found it very helpful.  Seriously, watch that vimeo!  Some things are emphasized graphically in the chart/video which don't come through as clearly in the text form of MCTB2.  Namely the back and forth between shamatha and vipassana states (which matches my experience) and the typical shifts that occur up, down and sideways between states and stages.  It's also nice to see everything in one place.  Another thing I found useful was this: http://integrateddaniel.info/overcalling-attainments.     

It was interesting to see the P8JP looping back to 11.4 as one of the expected outcomes in the chart.  I think I was overweighting access to review stages as being especially symptomatic of post SE territory.  The chart suggests that rising through n11 into P8JP and having a near miss of SE typically puts the meditator back into 11.4.  My experience was that I'd rise through 11.4.? and then kinda blank out for awhile and pop out in some kind of afterglow, after which I'd start in the A&P again.  This process (A&P through ??) would take 15-40 minutes on the cushion.  

In any case, while the maps are extremely useful and surprisingly accurate, it seems like there is a lot of individual variation between practioners.  I basically agree with the consensus of the forum that there's some confirming evidence and some disconfirming evidence, practice seems to be going well, and time will tell.  It has been ~2months which is not a lot of time.

Linda, do you mind sharing your progression between first path P8JP and SE?  Doesn't need to be super detailed or anything, I'm mostly curious whether your P8JP pre SE review cycles started at the A&P or in n11 somewhere.  I'm also having the experience of being on a new path that started around n3 (though I suspect I might have missed n1-n2 cause there was a lot of stuff going on) and is now somewhere in n11.  

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
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12/3/19 2:08 PM as a reply to Ben Sulsky.
I'm not sure. For a while I was under the impression that my meditations started at A&P most of the time even before SE, but I probably just didn't recognize the lower nanas as nanas, but thought of them as the normal way of starting a meditation session (having some initial minor issues with posture and breath before it runs smoothly). I remember a period when I was under the impression that I was in EQ throughout the sessions, but in retrospect I believe I did some cycling. My memory is failing me. My SE was on March 20th if I remember correctly, and you can find daily reports in my log from that time (I'm not sure which one it is, but I would guess it's the second one). 

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
12/3/19 3:07 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm not sure. For a while I was under the impression that my meditations started at A&P most of the time even before SE, but I probably just didn't recognize the lower nanas as nanas, but thought of them as the normal way of starting a meditation session (having some initial minor issues with posture and breath before it runs smoothly). I remember a period when I was under the impression that I was in EQ throughout the sessions, but in retrospect I believe I did some cycling. My memory is failing me. My SE was on March 20th if I remember correctly, and you can find daily reports in my log from that time (I'm not sure which one it is, but I would guess it's the second one). 


Interesting.  My experience is that upon each formal sit, there's a rising of concentration through J1->J4 that coincides with a feeling of settling in, but I think of the nana "I'm in" as being the one I left off on last session if I'm working on a path (if I'm in review, nanas are cycling constantly and move quickly).  I think a lot of meditators who do almost all vipassana describe this early part of a sit as "rising through", and report that even during a path they rise through previously completed nanas up to their current level on the progress of insight.  I think this is very different functionally and phenomenally than a review phase and shouldn't be described by the same term.  Our descriptions strike me as similar but can lead to a lot of confusion if words are taken too seriusly.  So, I report that I'm in EQ throughout the session, even though prior to really working in EQ there's the come-up period, whatever it's best called.  

Will check out the Linda archives for SE adjacent log reports at some point, thank you.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
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12/3/19 3:55 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Very nice practice log (#2) Linda, thank you for sharing your experiences.  I skimmed the sections from January through late March, and as you said you go through SE on March 20th.  

I think you do a great job describing a 3doors experience here: "I was noticing flickering sounds in my right ear and bouncing in my head and felt that there was too much distance to really notice with clarity what was going on. Then I remembered that merging with it was a way to achieve that clarity. At that moment I didn’t even think of fruition. I just wanted to investigate with clarity because I was fascinated. Suddenly I was drawn into a state of chrystal clear presence, without the distance that I had felt before. I’m not sure about the exact order but I know that a saw the world shift between vibrant strings, waves, and unstable particles, and I saw the shifts between those states. I saw that the waves were made up of the particles. The particles were formed as a circle around a black hole. This happened in rapid succession. It really was reality reappearing three times. And then I fell forward, into the black hole. It was really frightening for the fraction of a second. Then I was back and I was okay."  <--- note that you're describing a review fruition in the quoted section

A lot of the things you describe in the practice log are similar to things I've experienced, but not the above quoted section.  I hoped to be able to clearly investigate the 3doors either during the progress of insight or during one of the review cycles but this didn't happen.  The only thing I could clearly investigate was high eq, and then some formless stuff, and then an afterglow.  Will report back as practice matures and see what happens.

RE: Help me map - Stream Entry??
Answer
12/4/19 1:42 AM as a reply to Ben Sulsky.
Thankyou for your kind words! That was my clearest fruition experience, or rather experience of what took place before the fruition. Most of them do not live up to that. Some are somewhat clearer with regard to coming back, though. I hope to be able to explore the experiences more fully as the journey goes on. I look forward to more reports from your practice.