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Diagnosing Stream Entry
Answer
11/15/19 5:18 PM
Vimeo video from Daniel. I have found his philosophy of skeptisicm to be helpful in my practice.

https://twitter.com/danielmingram/status/1193610152865402880




RE: Diagnosing Stream Entry
Answer
11/18/19 4:42 PM as a reply to Jason Massie.
Thank you Jason and Daniel, I found this helpful

RE: Diagnosing Stream Entry
Answer
11/19/19 4:01 AM as a reply to Jason Massie.
When Daniel goes through the list of things stream entry is supposed to do it sounds to me like they are all very specific to one school of practice.

It's a short video, 3:36, I would be interested in what people who have had stream entry outside of "the stages of insight" type practice think of this. The video seems like it could be interpreted to mean that other types of practices don't produce valid stream-entry, and people who say they have stream entry from another type of practice are deluded and doing a lot of harm when they talk about it.

(Here is a different view on what stream entry is supposed to do: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment#Path_and_Fruit

A Stream-enterer (Sotāpanna) is free from:

1. Identity view (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi), the belief that there is an unchanging self or soul in the five impermanent skandhas[4][5]
2. Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Doubt about the teachings
)
Thanks

RE: Diagnosing Stream Entry
Answer
11/19/19 6:05 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
There is an old joke/proverb "if you ask the question, you know the answer."  Jim, it's a good sign that you are really focusing on this stuff. 

This could be an endless debate about definition because ultimately all definitions about expereince are arbitrary. Experience doesn't come with labels. That doesn't mean definitions are meaningless, just that you have to understand the context/system in which the definition is made. In other words, definitions are arbitrary but not necessarily meaningless or capricious.

The short story for me is that experiencing prolonged equanimity during meditation practice, really experiencing the subtlty of mind, experiencing mind moments/formations, experiencing how the flow of pre-verbal thoughts occurs on it's own, taking the mindstream as a meditation object, learning to follow the mind rather than control it, and going through cessation... all of that completely changes how you think of your "self" in a way that simply cannot compare to any intellectual thinking about self or not-self.

It is EXTREMELY unlikely to me that someone fails to experience cessation at some point on their way to arahatship, so using cessation as a milestone along the way doesn't have a downside. Plus it delivers as promised: no possibility that the self experience is "the essence of self", no possibility of thinking anything other than meditation will make a difference (no amount of thinking or rituals will do it), and absolutely no doubt that you have experienced something that is beyond conventional experience and something pointed to by the teachings --- frankly you become amazed that anyone has figured this stuff out and you are thankful to those who have pointed out the path. 

The only thing that I disagree with Daniel on is his focus of post-SE cycling and cessations (because not everyone "sees" the nanas so clearly so this can be missed and not everyone gets repeat cessations) but I do agree that a radical improvement in jhana is a key sign, beginning at A&P when you sit is a key sign, and perhaps most importantly: the road to second path soon follows which is marked by strong jhanic overlays on the progress of insight in a way that is new and confusing. It's really unmistakable and unavoidable if someone did experience SE. The way practice continues on to second path is probably the surest sign of SE. 

So I mostly agree with Daniel and really agree that this should be a goal of serious meditators --- by that I mean someone who only has meditation as their main "hobby" and who spends their time and money going on retreats in their spare time. It's dedicated work, often requiring multiple 10 and 15 day retreats, and/or 100 day retreats (the 3 month retreat at IMS for example) -- although I people have done it with just home practice.  So this is a serious endeavor and really nothing makes it "easy". But it's also like learning to play an instrument: if you love playing, you will get good, it's simply a matter of time --- but if you hate practicing, you'll never get good, no matter how good your instruction is.

There are lots of benefits to derive from practice and SE isn't necessary to live a good life. But if SE is what people want, they should understand what is involved. It's both easier and harder than people think. If someone loves the act of sitting down and looking at their inner experience of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts... then it's just a matter of time. 

Hope this helps in some way. 

RE: Diagnosing Stream Entry
Answer
11/19/19 8:57 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
There is an old joke/proverb "if you ask the question, you know the answer."  

I know what I think. I ask questions because I want to know what other people think.

RE: Diagnosing Stream Entry
Answer
11/19/19 7:43 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
I think most people around here feel the 1st and 2nd path line up with the fetter model. It is my experience. Of course, people could argue definition especially around self view. 

Daniel writes about it some here.

https://mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-vi-my-spiritual-quest/55-map-failure/

RE: Diagnosing Stream Entry
Answer
11/19/19 10:10 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
The Q&A part of this recording, where Daniel is a guest at SF Dharma Collective together with Michael Taft, deals with what you are asking about: https://youtu.be/IgYjLxM4VMc


They both seem to agree that different practices may describe the progression differently, but it is still basically the same progression. The Theravadan maps are thus not exclusive to Theravadan practices. They just happened to be more nerdy about mapping in that tradition than in the other traditions and therefore they were picky about the details in a way that others haven’t been. This doesn’t mean that other forms of practice do not go through the progress of insight. They all do. They just don’t necessarily map it out, as their focus may be elsewhere.

RE: Diagnosing Stream Entry
Answer
11/19/19 11:59 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
When Daniel goes through the list of things stream entry is supposed to do it sounds to me like they are all very specific to one school of practice.

It's a short video, 3:36, I would be interested in what people who have had stream entry outside of "the stages of insight" type practice think of this. The video seems like it could be interpreted to mean that other types of practices don't produce valid stream-entry, and people who say they have stream entry from another type of practice are deluded and doing a lot of harm when they talk about it.

(Here is a different view on what stream entry is supposed to do: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment#Path_and_Fruit

A Stream-enterer (Sotāpanna) is free from:

1. Identity view (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi), the belief that there is an unchanging self or soul in the five impermanent skandhas[4][5]
2. Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Doubt about the teachings
)
Thanks

1. There had to be a few mistranslated from sutta, because sakkaya-ditthi, means that there is a self with an identity inside us, because he understand the dependant origination so he know how 'he' comes into being, now he wants to live in the truth ,how easily one create a 'self' just from reaction to feelings, so he practise through 8 noble paths, so he is called a stream enterer.

2. not attachment to rituals, but also the sila itself, this meant to be the protection

3. not about teachings, but doubts, where one want to do this, but then he doubt and do the other. Where the emotional mind and logical mind goes into different direction. One who practice sila will encounter this and fully comprehend, and SE will able to end the conflict.