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Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/4/09 3:14 AM
Question 1. Is the whole kundalini up the sushuma into the crown chakra and then back down = one enlightenment cycle?
Question 2. Many people reference kundalini as being equal to "prana", "chi", etc. However, in the book "layayoga" by "Shyam Sundar Goswami", it is written: "It has been argued that energy polarises itself as static and dynamic. And the dynamic form is the pranic force, and its static support is kundalini." Also yogani, in his http://www.aypsite.org/, describes the process of enlightenment as the infusion of the whole experience into "silent bliss consciousness", which seems to support the notion of Kundalini as a static counterpart to prana, say, as the empty blissful space where prana manifests. Would this make sense with your experience of kundalini?

In the previous thread there was a citation of Mirra Alfassa:
And for a quarter of an hour, the consciousness rose, rose, without moving. It kept rising up, up, up - until ... the junction was made. [...] It was the consciousness OF THE BODY. [...] After this, Slowly, Still WITHOUT MOVING, everything went back into each of the different centers of the being. (Ah, let me say parenthetically that it wasn't AT ALL the ascent of a force like the ascent of the Kundalini! [...]


Could it be that Mirra Alfassa was in fact "finally" experiencing the ascent of kundalini, while confusing kundalini with prana? Her description of how it goes up and then back down seems to fit the descriptions of what should happen that I've read elsewhere. Does kundalini as "silent bliss consciousness" make more sense than kundalini = prana?

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/4/09 5:44 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Keep in mind that I don't have developed my energy sytem or perception of it well when reading this.

1) edit: I guess with the "down" you mean a movement down the spine? Or as in chinese systems, down the front? Anyway, I don't have a to-the-point-answer. I'll quote from and link to Kenneth Folk's homepage here, his articles were on DhO 1, but that I haven't found them here yet. They could give you some clues.

"Notice that only four of the 16 ñanas have corresponding jhanas. (The immaterial jhanas 5-8 are a subset of the 4th jhana.) This is because the other ñanas, although jhanic states, are not stable. They are nexuses of energy where, for some reason, the energy roils around and does not rest comfortably. Being unstable (or as in the case of ñanas 12-14, one-time events), they are not places where a yogi can rest his mind. It is no coincidence that the pleasant ñanas have correponding samatha jhanas, whereas the upleasant ñanas do not. Stability is pleasant. Instability leads to fear, misery, disgust, etc."
http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Jhana+and+Ñana
To me it sounds like electric and magnetic fields, the former have sources (charges), the latter none, only vortices.
Would be interesting to map the ñanas/vortices on locations within the circuit.

another good article on physio-energetic development:
http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Physio-energetic+and+Psychological+Models+of+Enlightenment
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/85796#_19_message_85762


2) Prana/Chi is always accessible, do practices like Robert Bruce's New Energy Ways a few times, and you'll feel it. If you stop practicing, your perception of it stops. Kundalini are phenomena that cannot be turned off and are a developmental landmark linked to the A&P. Usually in yoga you distinguish partial from full awakening of the kundalini. I'd say partial awakening is equal to A&P. But as kundalini is a transformative power, full awakening would mean it has transformed something, that is first path.

Now Mirra taught Integral Yoga, and in it spiritualisation is developmental enlightenment and the same as fourth path and completion of the physio-energetic development process as Kenneth put it. So as kundalini is part of that game, Mirra knew it when having the above-quoted experiences (She was 75-80 at that time). In her language, spiritualisation is the connecting to the supreme reality, an ascension.

In the quote you're providing she's talking about the beginning of supramentalisation, a process that can only start after enlightenment is attained, and that results in the awakening of the divine in the material world, the bringing down of the power of enlightened consciousness into the mundane body. This divinisation is supposedly able to transform the human being on a biological level, something enlightenment and kundalini do not do.

This then must be the nature of the third and final transformation which finishes the passage of the soul through the Ignorance and bases its consciousness, its life, its power and form of manifestation on a complete and completely effective self-knowledge. The Truth-Consciousness, finding evolutionary Nature ready, has to descend into her and enable her to liberate the supramental principle within her; so must be created the supramental and spiritual being as the first unveiled manifestation of the truth of the Self and Spirit in the material universe.
– Sri Aurobindo, The Life Divine, p.918, 10th ed.


hope it's helpful.

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/4/09 4:26 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Hi Bruno,
You can ponder this stuff for endless lifetimes. People create models based on their experiences. Then they go around and find quotes from others to support their views. Endless pronouncements of 'Truth' – a pile of rabbit horns! I feel very philosophical today :-)

What practices are you working with?

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/5/09 4:33 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno: Yes what practices?

1) many get awakened K spontaneously, without any particular effort involved

2) others work with the asanas, pranayam, bhandhas, and kriyas to generate k and then manipulate it or move it around

3) and still others use systems like Reiki to move energy in and out of various chakras, and auras.

K, once awakened becomes a dynamic force, going around and doing what it does. It is somewhat asynchronous, like a corkscrew feeling sometimes. If you look up Anmol Metha on You Tube there are some helpful exercises

p e a c e

h a n s e n

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/5/09 5:13 PM as a reply to Eric Alan Hansen.
Bruno: Further thoughts - K is a potentially dangerous force and can lead to insanity and death for those who get caught up in it. It sometimes makes them feel like it is so blissful that it "has" to be enlightenment. This is a naive view of enlightenment however. Kundalini, like similar effects of some psychedelic drugs, can be awakened in a meditator who does not possess the mental discipline or moral fiber to manage life while under the influence.

That having been said, the comments and questions you have involve meditation practice that utilize visualizations. Don't assume everyone does that. I don't. But, many people do, and there are many variations, and then there are subjective experiences that many happen while one performs a guided visualization - all complicated and subjective issues. There isn't going to be one answer. For example, K rising through each chakra and to the crown, then going back down, I don't know if anyone has this except in the guided meditation where one visualizes it.

That kundalini shakti = prana? Well, not all prana is K. The only prana that gets called kundalini is a certain manifestation of prana, a coiled-up life force dormant within the human organism, awakened by enlightenment experiences. Again, that is just a model, a view. I think the suggestion is to realize first path, stream entry, and see what it does. But if you have an inkling that it is modestly active I would resort to the mental discipline and moral training Buddha taught, or a comparable alternative. Everyone I have talked with who has awakened Kundalini agrees that being well grounded and well rounded is essential in keeping it together.

On the positive side, if you would like to look at how pervasive this dormant knowledge of it is throughout all coutures, see the google links to: "axis mundi", and "serpent"

p e a c e,

h a n s e n

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/15/09 4:06 PM as a reply to Eric Alan Hansen.
Well, I've gone to a Goenka vipassana retreat, and experienced tactile sensations of "energy" in the "chakras". I had these sensations in seven points throughout the body, all of which corresponded to the places where the "chakras" are supposed to lie. Since this came naturally and without expectation (I used to think that "chakra" was a word that only spa-attending midwifes used), I conjectured that I would progress to enlightenment faster with an approach that placed emphasis on energy work.

Indeed to this day I have daily sensations of energy flowing up. I don't know if I'm going through the "dark night", but I do get cyclic moments of depression and euphoria, and during the last days of the cycle, when I feel depressed, I will invariably have sensations of pain in my spine, which eventually get "released", restarting the cycle again. I recognize no moment of "cessation", though, I don't think I've reached stream-entry.

With respect to the connection with psychedelics: I was a fairly adept psychonaut until about a year ago, when I had a somewhat bizarre existential trip, which is the actual reason I began the whole enlightenment business. My day-to-day reality has changed, and I've had to incorporate many visual and mental effects of psychedelics.

I would really be encouraged to take the "energetic approach" if I had a treatise similar to daniel ingrams, with a map of what to expect, stage-by-stage, describing the physio-energetic experience of enlightenment.

Meanwhile, I'm simultaneously experimenting with vipassana, noting, magick, and pranayama... we'll see.

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/16/09 11:04 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
I would really be encouraged to take the "energetic approach" if I had a treatise similar to daniel ingrams, with a map of what to expect, stage-by-stage, describing the physio-energetic experience of enlightenment.


Some thoughts:
Models (process), maps, and practices. There is this thing that happens to us called 'awakening'. It is experiential and outside of regular human experience. So we create models in order to speak about it and have a conceptual way of working with it. Models basically describe a process in conceptual terms. Maps are based on a model and depict stages and then we can speak of practices and how they change at different stages.

The basic energetic model looks like this: You have a subtle energetic body that is composed of channels and centers. Energy/Consciousness is bound up in blockages in these channels and these blockages are experienced as duality. Through practice, these blockages are cleared, and over time our energy/consciousness is collected in the lower abdominal area. At this point, it moves up into a central channel and this marks the point where our experience becomes non-dual (ditching the split). Though details differ, both Vajrayana and Taoism follow this general model.

Can we map this over to the Progress of Insight? I suspect so. If you look at the energetic model/process experientially then when we do the practices and these blockages are opened up, there is a release of energy. This opening (in the subtle body) may be clearly and sometimes dramatically experienced (A and P). The repressed or blocked trauma that this blockage represented is now no longer repressed and presents itself to our surface consciousness (dark night). It eventually works its way through and ultimately we are back to experiencing our subtle body now free of that blockage which feels much more comfortable and expansive (equanimity). If we keep practicing, the cycle will continue. There is most likely a relationship between specific centers and paths. I never gave much attention to this and can't say what those might be.

As far as what to expect: everyone is different. You will have your own experience and whatever that is, it won't be what you expect. If you want to do intensive energy work then work with someone that knows what they are doing – intensive energy work can release more stuff then you may be ready for. As we have seen here at DhO, intensive noting practice can have the same effect - so same suggestion applies there. As I have related energy work to Daniels map, it stands to reason (if I am right) that energy work need not be more intensive then any other approach. It is more how you understand what is going on - which defines the focus and type of practice. Thai Forest Tradition uses energy work, so does Goenka and Shinzen Young and probably many others.

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/17/09 7:21 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Well I was going to say that since you were at a Goenka retreat and then the kundalini things started to happen, or you started to become aware that they were happening, that would be a more or less (1) spontaneous K, which is to be expected as one becomes adept, yes, this does happen in the vipassana path, there is a history of that. A yogi should know about this as it has ramifications. Big Box Superstore meditation practices don't have a way of dealing with it, if you have problems they won't talk to you or help you through them. That is something to think about. Additionally the Big Box Superstores all claim to be The True Path - BUT - since they can't help you when problems arise I guess I'll cut to the chase and say their teachings are actually therefore somewhat defective, their multitude of little mini-teachers don't have a good working knowledge of the territory.

On the other hand, since you are experimenting with pranayama and majick, it could be that it is not purely spontaneous, that you are mixing and matching things you find that might awaken that kundalini. In which case I don't have any thing to say since it is out of my department.

p e a c e

h a n s e n

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
10/17/09 8:24 AM as a reply to Eric Alan Hansen.
Bruno: I re-read your post, your original question, about prana, chi, kundalini, etc., about energy dynamic and static - yes I have heard that analogy. An example of static energy is like a resevoir full of water, that can resting energy can be turned into any other form of energy, mechanical energy, into electrical energy, electrical energy into thermal energy, etc. etc. so yes, yes the typical model is that k is in a resting state, or rather shakti is in a resting state, it is a physical material expression of the energy/matter relativity continuum so it is therefore not part and parcel of the Absolute, etc. etc., this verges on an issue that is pretty far outside the Buddhist way of looking at things, as it revolves around a highly theistic world view, the end result of which is to get a highly "theistic" experience, regardless of what ACTUALLY happpened. Speculation becomes asserted as theological fact, especially among those stuck in the kundalini illness or those addicted to jhanic states. Myself, I find it annoying when someone tries to assert what they consider to be factual yet they cannot articulate it. The ability to articulate clearly is certainly something that is present in all Buddhas teachings. Your quest for bliss consciousness is not unrealistic, however, as there is always a part of us that wants to drink form this cup. BLISS is just a quality that arises of successful concentrative practice and the best way to get bliss is just to do what you are already doing, practice, you don't even need the kundalini for that. It would probably be a huge thrill, but it is hardly necessary.

Patanjali and Buddha both use the same list for actual manifestations or fruit of the powers, to link into your majick thrread - but this is almost a separate issue - . You are not far off in this sense because powers and concentrative states do share a common root in how they are practiced - not sure what the need to play with them is however - ?? It is a bit like trying at analyze the arrow rather than gettiing it removed, I'd focus on that instead

Concentration just develops a skill which we then can then turn somewhat to opening the Wisdom factor, that is where enlightenment is hiding, right there in broad daylight. What we call enlightenment is simply actualizing wisdom, understanding, and compassion
p e a c e
h a n s e n

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
8/16/11 10:05 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Kundalini isn't prana, kundalini has a sexual feel that prana/chi/lung doesnt. Prana moves information through the nervous system. Prana moves the kundalini. It seems the energy of kundalini can be broken down further into kundalini and shatki.

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
8/16/11 12:49 PM as a reply to no-name seems more proper.
May be relevant to add that I have lost all interest in an ecstasy or energy based practice. After posting this thread, I went and did a home retreat where I was to attain stream entry, after which I have had strong energetic currents (undeniably sexual, kundalini for sure) for a few months in early 2010. Some days it felt like I was making love to the world.

More recently I began practicing actualism, and focusing on the sensuous aspect of experience (the crystal clear pre-emotional fidelity). According to my experience and preference, I find Kundalini vastly inferior to sensuous delight.

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
8/16/11 8:01 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
I am not so sure that Kundalini leads anywhere.

I have a long history of astral projections and one evening I woke up during sleep with vibrations going up and down my spine and I started to project from the top of my head.

When I woke up during this process I knew it was kundalini so I made an effort to "squeeze" the energy from the base of my spine back up through my head. I projected out of my body and was standing in the room and looking at myself laying there in bed.

For a long time now I have projections out of the top of my head. A area that rings the top of my head sort of buzzes when this happens. I don't think this will lead anywhere and that is why I am practicing Buddhism now. I mean even if you get out after death and retain anything (if that is even possible) what do you do then?

Gerry

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
9/3/11 1:48 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Different causes will lead to different enlightenments, these enlightenments can co-exist.

Was the kundalini staying around an energy center, the crown? the base of the spine? the heart? Or was it being
pushed via the pulse? This will not only impact the intensity but also the utility of the energy. The sexual aspect of the kundalini-shatki phenomena can be ceased.
Some will delight in it's bonus to the 4 immeasurable joy meditations as well a furthering of the spontaneous intuition pertaining to such joys... while others will delight in it's boost to intellection, as well as a furthering of the spontaneous intuition regarding such intellection... further a direct increase to the verbosity function as well as a furthering of the spontaneous intuition concerning such verbosity function.
Overall, the energy has more utility than most and is rather malleable.






May the highest peace stay with all sentient beings.

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
9/6/11 12:10 PM as a reply to no-name seems more proper.
I dont know when I raised my kundalini it was anything but sexual it was more of hold on while this force which is you does you, but not gently, more just survive the experience without panicking. Maybe it is because I did it all at once.

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
9/6/11 5:08 PM as a reply to Bodhi Yogi Dharma.
Bodhi Yogi Dharma:
Different causes will lead to different enlightenments, these enlightenments can co-exist.

Was the kundalini staying around an energy center, the crown? the base of the spine? the heart? Or was it being
pushed via the pulse? This will not only impact the intensity but also the utility of the energy. The sexual aspect of the kundalini-shatki phenomena can be ceased.



On the occasion when I realized it was Kundalini it was an energy that went up and down my spine. It was a vibrating feeling.
When it got to the top of my head there was a ring of vibration on the very top of my head, the crown. When it went back down my spine and "sat" there at the base of my spine, I just "squeezed" the energy. It wasn't a muscular thing and I don't know how I squeezed the energy, but I just wanted it to go back up my head because I knew that if it did I would project out of my body.

At one time the energy buzzed at my throat, but whenever it buzzes at the top of my head I can "leave" my body. For a period of time I explored this but now it's not something that I pursue. It just happens at different times. When it does happen I just go with it.

Regards,
Gerry

RE: Questions about kundalini
Answer
6/9/12 8:01 AM as a reply to Gerry T.
what does kriya yoga comparatively to vipassana if i m before stream entry?what is mor usefull to continue with? there is a book of Paramahansa Yogananda"the autobiography of a yogi" and there is living Master of Kriya yoga- Yogiraj Gurunath -I guess he knows what he is doing.vipassana gave me wonderfull insights but we westerners always look for faster ways.although I want thouse ways to be safe too.any practical advise? I do now 36 kriyas a day-guess its very safe amount.but because of free time limits do I better stick with only vipassana or do thouse krias and vipassana?thank for anybody who is experienced in both and can provide advice.Lena