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What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?

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What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/23/19 11:29 PM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Bardo 12/24/19 1:41 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/24/19 12:21 PM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Chris Marti 12/24/19 7:23 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? shargrol 12/24/19 9:15 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/24/19 12:25 PM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Chris Marti 12/24/19 12:54 PM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/25/19 4:16 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/25/19 6:40 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/28/19 11:48 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/30/19 3:44 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/30/19 11:43 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Chris Marti 12/25/19 8:54 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/28/19 11:55 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Chris Marti 12/28/19 7:41 PM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/28/19 11:45 PM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Chris Marti 12/29/19 8:48 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/29/19 9:10 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Chris Marti 12/29/19 9:20 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Anton 12/29/19 10:14 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Chris Marti 12/29/19 11:58 AM
RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight? Chris Marti 12/29/19 9:08 AM
What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a meditation Insight?

Is it fundamentally different than say, finally understanding a Koan? Can I say contemplating, then understanding a Koan is the same as having a Eureka moment about own perception?

Is Vipassana unique in that it produces a Eureka moment but with the company of unique symptoms like cessation?

Where do you guys draw the lines between what is commonly experienced as a eureka moment, and what is rarely experiences as a meditation insight? Why do you draw the lines there?

Would it be useful to stop drawing a sharp distinction?
...moment or eureka moment) refers to the common human experience of suddenly understanding a previously incomprehensible problem or concept. Some research describes the Aha!

Meditative insight is usually a low-key affair with me. When I first started having insights about 2 or so years ago there was a sense of "ah ha!" but that has fizzled into a quiet acceptance of those insights. They have become normalized.

I'm fascinated in how someone comes to understand a Koan? This suggests that the answer lies in cognition which is only a tool used to leverage itself during koan contemplation. As such, koans did not produce what I would call an "ah ha!" moment but more of a breakdown of conceptual thought to such a degree that laughter ensues at the very notion that words could never figure the damn thing out. This is a true koan. It guides you beyond naming and forming so that you are able to access the deeper parts of your wisdom because words usually bring to an abrupt conclusion any further curiosity about the world and the universe. So yes, insights can have this effect too but I suspect the effects of insight on people are many and varied.

Is Vipassana unique in that it produces a Eureka moment but with the company of unique symptoms like cessation?

No. Many people are having insights through other methods.

Would it be useful to stop drawing a sharp distinction?

Curiosity is favourable in this game. The whole thing becomes a koan and eventually breaks you down into the outer. 

Where do you guys draw the lines between what is commonly experienced as a eureka moment, and what is rarely experiences as a meditation insight? Why do you draw the lines there?

Eureka is suddenly understanding something. Insight is suddenly understanding something about how you understand. In other words, there's not a whole lot of difference other than the object being grokked.

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RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/24/19 9:15 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Well said!

Bardo Cruiser:
Meditative insight is usually a low-key affair with me. When I first started having insights about 2 or so years ago there was a sense of "ah ha!" but that has fizzled into a quiet acceptance of those insights. They have become normalized.

It is the same with Eureka moments, as soon as the insight is had you start to normalize it. 

I'm fascinated in how someone comes to understand a Koan? 

Contemplation, how else? You have to keep it in mind somehow. From my experience each Koan wants to break a "solid" mental process in a different way. Contemplation of Fox koan is good for dealing with Karma, one-hand clap is good for breaking down inherent existance, the perceived becomes the perceiver. They all have a unique design.

As such, koans did not produce what I would call an "ah ha!" moment but more of a breakdown of conceptual thought to such a degree that laughter ensues at the very notion that words could never figure the damn thing out. 

A Eureka moment can definitely be followed by laughter too. Also because of that same incongruency between solving and solution. And I've definitely chuckled after "solving" a koan and after other incongruous insights. 

RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/24/19 12:25 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Where do you guys draw the lines between what is commonly experienced as a eureka moment, and what is rarely experiences as a meditation insight? Why do you draw the lines there?

Eureka is suddenly understanding something. Insight is suddenly understanding something about how you understand. In other words, there's not a whole lot of difference other than the object being grokked.

emoticon

I think so too, I believe this is the same meaning as "Koan is the same as having a Eureka moment about own perception"

So like, a meta-eureka emoticon And I completely agree it's about what object is being grokked, that's all.

I do wonder if the meditation-sphere should reconcile its language on this topic, so insights become less mysterious, since almost all students have some "Eurekas" a couple times growing up. Or maybe it's important to keep distinction, if so why? 

Or maybe it's important to keep distinction, if so why? 

Anton, we can do away with the distinction as long as we specify the subject matter. But using the word "insight" is a shorthand way of saying "I had a eureka moment about how I perceive things."

RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/25/19 4:16 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Or maybe it's important to keep distinction, if so why? 

Anton, we can do away with the distinction as long as we specify the subject matter. But using the word "insight" is a shorthand way of saying "I had a eureka moment about how I perceive things."

Thx Chris. I came across a quote that touches on this subject well you might be interested in:

The language of dependent origination or the perfect Dhamma language can help us perceive the truth in phenomena. It is different from ordinary languages that are polluted by concepts of continuing existence. 

Perhaps "Eureka", is a bit too polluted by continuity.

Is there such a thing as a perfect Dhamma language beyond all "pollution"? I sincerely doubt that. Isn't language inherently dualistic and solidify? And isn't the notion that there is something wrong with that, also dualistic and solidifying? 

The language of dependent origination or the perfect Dhamma language can help us perceive the truth in phenomena. It is different from ordinary languages that are polluted by concepts of continuing existence. 

This quote isn't referring to language in the conventional sense. It's referring to the "language" of how we perceive, the mind as it just is. That language is, indeed, unpolluted by concepts. It's sort of like when a Zen master yells "Katz!" right in your ear as you meditate.*

* Note: Zen example used for terry  emoticon

RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/28/19 11:48 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Is there such a thing as a perfect Dhamma language beyond all "pollution"? I sincerely doubt that. Isn't language inherently dualistic and solidify? And isn't the notion that there is something wrong with that, also dualistic and solidifying? 
I think it is just comparitive as in one is less poluted, rather than one being perfect and the other not perfect. Because of a lack of inherent existence all words are metaphors and a lot carry baggage and are intertwined with other concepts. I think keeping a dhamma language where things are optimized and minimized to not bring upon ignorant things like continuity is quite clever. Maybe this is an element to the secret lineage mantras in India that only a master will whisper in your ear. So it's all about usefulness here. Even if, at the end of the day we do aside with words and venture into the formless, like how we would put aside a rowboat after crossing a river in order to climb the mountain ahead. We still use the rowboat, and other people will also use them. So if my friends want spiritual progress, am I going to bring them in a rowboat full of prostitutes and liquor, or one that is pristine with images of Buddha? 

RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/28/19 11:55 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The language of dependent origination or the perfect Dhamma language can help us perceive the truth in phenomena. It is different from ordinary languages that are polluted by concepts of continuing existence. 

This quote isn't referring to language in the conventional sense. It's referring to the "language" of how we perceive, the mind as it just is. That language is, indeed, unpolluted by concepts. It's sort of like when a Zen master yells "Katz!" right in your ear as you meditate.*

* Note: Zen example used for terry  emoticon

I can see why you think this, however the author is very specific on why they are talking about language in this way. Here is a longer explanation:
If we use everyday language to explain dependent origination, there will be confusion and lack of understanding. For instance, the Buddha’s enlightenment under the Bodhi tree was the cessation of Ignorance. With the cessation of Ignorance came the cessation of Volitional Action, Consciousness, and Name-and-Form. Why then did the Buddha not die? When the Buddha attained enlightenment, it was the cessation of Ignorance. With the cessation of Ignorance came the cessation of Volitional Action. Why then did the Buddha not die under the Bodhi tree? It is because the language of dependent of origination is the Dhamma language. Therefore, Birth and Death do not mean the birth or death of the physical body.


Your second quote proves my original point. Especially this part: "If we use everyday language to explain dependent origination, there will be confusion and lack of understanding."

What do you think it is that's being referred to in your quotes as "the language of dependent origination?"

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RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/28/19 11:45 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Your second quote proves my original point. Especially this part: "If we use everyday language to explain dependent origination, there will be confusion and lack of understanding."

What do you think it is that's being referred to in your quotes as "the language of dependent origination?"

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I would strongly suggest you read the actual article from beginning to end if you have not.

"language of dependent origination" is the language of ultimate truth, as Buddha taught it (this is how the author is using the term). They are careful to make this distinction to avoid mistranslations and the corrupting nature of translations. Here's the last example I'd like to share with you. I don't think it's particularly fruitful to dance around truth statements in this instance, so if you still insist I think it would be more appropriate to contact the author directly for disambiguation. 

Edit: I asked Dhammarato and he said both intepretations are correct and offered disambiguation resource: http://www.buddhadasa.com/naturaltruth/twolanguage1.html . I would like to carefully and delicately point out that my original purpose is not to talk about the formless, but talk very directly about the pragmatic part of language, the forms and words we use to communicate meaning (eg. to answer a question like: will a beginner gain benefit from seeing a Eureka moment which they have experienced before is not significantly different than a vipassana insight?). I think the formless, ultimate, gained-from-experience side of the coin (which I believe you're staking as the "true definition") is a different topic. It's overall quite interesting and worth reading through.
This is using everyday or children’s language and not what the Buddha taught. One must comprehend the law of dependent arising according to the Buddha’s doctrine of dependent origination and not according to latter-period essayists, who embraced the concept of a continuing existence. The dependent origination discussed by latter-period essayists was their own creation that has been passed down up to present day.

I'll read the article you've linked to and hope to grok what you're saying (http://www.buddhadasa.com/naturaltruth/twolanguage1.html). Can you post more information about the source of the original quote you produced here? You didn't tell us anything about the author, the title or provide a link. It was this one:

The language of dependent origination or the perfect Dhamma language can help us perceive the truth in phenomena. It is different from ordinary languages that are polluted by concepts of continuing existence. 

Yeah, I read the article you just linked to. It is actually about the difference in the definitions of words and terms between everyday, common uses and those used by people in metaphysics and spirituality. I have to admit to liking my version better (that it's about actually having a felt, deeply understood, in-the-bones experience of dependent origination). But I was wrong to assume that. My mistake!

RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/29/19 9:10 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Original is by Buddhadasah Bhikkua, with hosting on on Dhammarato's blog https://dhammaratoblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/paticcasamuppada-practical-dependent-origination/

Definitely a good read, and well worth the time. As they say, Buddhism without dependent origination is not Buddhism. emoticon This particular take on things is very pragmatic in a sense, and should be well aligned with the goals of this community.

There was a time when the words were all I had but if that's all I ever got, all I ever used, all I ever knew, then I'd be missing the most important and life-changing part of this practice. The language is the introduction, so trying hard to get the language right is, indeed, very important, if for no other reason than it leads one to the practice. I'm just stupid and/or silly enough to believe that the experiential, the actual practice, of the dharma is more profound than the words - any words. That has been my experience. That's probably, no doubt actually, why I misinterpreted the quote.

RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/29/19 10:14 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I'm just stupid and/or silly enough to believe that the experiential, the actual practice, of the dharma is more profound than the words - any words. 

I don't think it is silly at all! What is the sound of one hand clapping anyway? My favorite metaphor for words is the rowboat -- get out and leave it once you cross the river and are ready to head up the mountain. I think Wittegenstein has the most succint modern take on words lacking inherent existence with the statement "meaning is use" and caution given to philosphers playing language games. 

But yes, like you said, once you experience it (use it) that's when the word really gets its meaning. And then it doesn't really matter which word form it takes... any expression of it is metaphor.

I don't think it is silly at all! What is the sound of one hand clapping anyway?

Wait, are you using dharma-speak on me?  emoticon

Anton:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Is there such a thing as a perfect Dhamma language beyond all "pollution"? I sincerely doubt that. Isn't language inherently dualistic and solidify? And isn't the notion that there is something wrong with that, also dualistic and solidifying? 
I think it is just comparitive as in one is less poluted, rather than one being perfect and the other not perfect. Because of a lack of inherent existence all words are metaphors and a lot carry baggage and are intertwined with other concepts. I think keeping a dhamma language where things are optimized and minimized to not bring upon ignorant things like continuity is quite clever. Maybe this is an element to the secret lineage mantras in India that only a master will whisper in your ear. So it's all about usefulness here. Even if, at the end of the day we do aside with words and venture into the formless, like how we would put aside a rowboat after crossing a river in order to climb the mountain ahead. We still use the rowboat, and other people will also use them. So if my friends want spiritual progress, am I going to bring them in a rowboat full of prostitutes and liquor, or one that is pristine with images of Buddha? 
I get what you are saying. I probably interpreted the quote too literally. I agree that it is important not to use misleading language. Still, since the connotations of a word depends on the experience of the interlocutors rather than some innate quality of the word itself, I don't believe it to be possible to optimize the language once and for all. It may need adjustments to the audience. Thus, "eureka moment" might be a helpful concept to some and misleading to others. 

RE: What is the difference between a Eureka moment and a Vipassana Insight?
Answer
12/30/19 11:43 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Nothing is permanent and everything depends on other stuff, I very much agree.