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Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?

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Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?

Has work been done already to create a flow chart for diagnosing? Eg. 

It could be based on axiomatic type questions like...

"Do you believe you can observe two sensations at the same time?"

Yes --> go here
No --> go here

....

"Do you believe the present moment has inherent existence?"

etc.
...

And so on...

Thoughts?

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/24/19 5:43 AM as a reply to Anton.
Whoever comes up with the flow chart will have essentially created artificial intelligence and finally all of us meditation teachers won't have to work anymore! Looking forward to that! emoticon

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/24/19 8:16 AM as a reply to shargrol.

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/24/19 12:30 PM as a reply to Dodge E Knees.
Dodge E Knees:

Yeah, agreed... this is the best I've seen. Definitely wishing it was encoded , sophisticated with more logic via flow chart. In fact, I find it quite odd that it isn't, given how many teachers there are and how much time is spent doing other stuff. But perhaps, historically, this is just the first time the environment has been right... with pragmatic forums like this one and the internet to collaborate. 

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/24/19 12:35 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Whoever comes up with the flow chart will have essentially created artificial intelligence and finally all of us meditation teachers won't have to work anymore! Looking forward to that! emoticon

A flow chart is definitely in that direction, but in practice is no replacement for humans. Although the military does have a robot that produces "scent molecules" that increases soldiers trust in it... having these things teach us Dharma is at least a couple decades away. However for now, a nice flow chart would be acceptable. 

If you want to know the truth, I was planning to use it for training an AI model, so you caught me emoticon

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/24/19 12:36 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:


While a very excellent flow chart which this community revolves around, it has different purpose from the one I desire.

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/25/19 9:01 AM as a reply to Anton.
Anton, do you really think a flow chart would help? I'm thinking not, because the universe of human capabilities and outcomes when it comes to the practice of the dharma is likely infinite. The flow chart might have more decision trees than there are elementary particles in the universe. It might be accurate but impossible to use in a practical sense.

What do you think?

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/25/19 9:10 AM as a reply to Anton.
Anton:
Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?

Has work been done already to create a flow chart for diagnosing? Eg. 

It could be based on axiomatic type questions like...

"Do you believe you can observe two sensations at the same time?"

Yes --> go here
No --> go here

....

"Do you believe the present moment has inherent existence?"

etc.
...

And so on...

Thoughts?

Here's the same map but with a walkthrough by Daniel. Click.

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/27/19 12:02 AM as a reply to Anton.

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/27/19 2:14 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Yeah, while I can definitely see a need for one, so try this on for size:

Question 1: Able to practic well without being overcome by hindrances, including map obsession?

Yes: Keep paying attention to the sensations of this moment, including thoughts about maps, noticing them as experiences that come and go.

No: Identify hindrance (anger/hatred, doubt, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor, sensual desire, etc.) and apply standard remedies, and, once accomplished, return to Question 1.

Practice well!

Daniel

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/28/19 12:29 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Anton, do you really think a flow chart would help? I'm thinking not, because the universe of human capabilities and outcomes when it comes to the practice of the dharma is likely infinite. The flow chart might have more decision trees than there are elementary particles in the universe. It might be accurate but impossible to use in a practical sense.

What do you think?
I think it depends on how granular to make it. I think it's reasonable to view Buddhism "a religion of lists" as a big flow chart. I think it's OK to create models and lose some accuracy in order to gain some comprehension. I have a feeling the list of meaningful human experience is much more limited than our intuition grants, and it's a relatively small and manageable issue for machines to sort out. 

I think we can go first-principle and ask axiomatic questions, and really boil things down to a model that works well. In a way the koan system is quite close but is can be optimized to be more pragmatic and data-influenced.

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/28/19 12:32 AM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
this link has the one chris posted + daniel's a&p diagnosis map ...

Thanks Noah, this is a nice collection of resources, and definitely enough for me to mull over for the time.

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/28/19 11:36 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Yeah, while I can definitely see a need for one, so try this on for size:

Question 1: Able to practic well without being overcome by hindrances, including map obsession?

Yes: Keep paying attention to the sensations of this moment, including thoughts about maps, noticing them as experiences that come and go.

No: Identify hindrance (anger/hatred, doubt, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor, sensual desire, etc.) and apply standard remedies, and, once accomplished, return to Question 1.

Practice well!

Daniel

I like it. It's like the "return to breath" loop but dry with hindrance identification and on-the-fly remedies.

I've made a quick flow chart, http://prntscr.com/qgvknz

Do you think discern and focus are ideal bounds? As I see in your master chart, the left side is for concentration stage and right for vipassana. Do you think during practice it is right to boil it down to "the mind discerns" and "the mind focuses" and any remedy or meditation style is on some spectrum between these two.

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/28/19 4:38 PM as a reply to Anton.
At an earlier point in my practice, I made this chart related to different antidotes:



RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/28/19 5:17 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
At an earlier point in my practice, I made this chart related to different antidotes:




Noah,

Do you mind unpacking your "good enough" rule?  

RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Answer
12/28/19 11:48 PM as a reply to Noah D.
Thanks for this Noah!

What do you exactly mean when you say "smile into bottomless pit "?

Also, what according to you are downsides of lust?