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Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/26/19 8:16 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Dustin 12/26/19 10:53 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/26/19 11:54 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep curious 12/26/19 1:57 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/26/19 2:17 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep curious 12/26/19 3:52 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/26/19 11:57 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep neko 12/28/19 10:03 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/29/19 2:28 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep neko 12/29/19 3:31 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/29/19 5:57 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep svmonk 12/26/19 7:52 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/27/19 12:02 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Noah D 12/26/19 11:29 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/27/19 12:20 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Noah D 12/28/19 4:33 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/29/19 2:40 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/27/19 1:03 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep curious 12/28/19 11:35 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/29/19 2:36 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/29/19 7:18 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep hae1en 12/30/19 3:34 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/31/19 1:32 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep hae1en 2/13/20 6:03 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 5:40 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep neko 2/15/20 9:45 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep neko 2/15/20 9:51 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep hae1en 2/15/20 1:32 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep neko 2/15/20 10:57 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/16/20 1:42 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep hae1en 2/16/20 11:43 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 9:57 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep neko 2/15/20 10:21 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 10:47 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep neko 2/15/20 11:06 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 11:06 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep neko 2/15/20 11:13 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 11:14 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 11:36 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Chris Marti 2/15/20 11:51 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 12:02 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 11:59 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 12:49 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 1:11 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep hae1en 2/15/20 1:08 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 1:41 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep hae1en 2/16/20 12:04 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/16/20 12:47 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep hae1en 2/16/20 2:32 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/16/20 3:19 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Romeo Stevens 12/27/19 2:58 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep agnostic 12/28/19 6:29 PM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 12/29/19 2:44 AM
RE: Lucid dreamless sleep Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/15/20 9:34 AM
Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 8:16 AM
I'd be most grateful if someone could tell me the point of lucid dreamless sleep. I have heard that there are people who work hard to get there, so I suspect there is something one could do with it other than listening to and feeling one's body snoring for 40 minutes or so. I never really intended to learn to stay aware while in deep sleep. It just happens now and then, when I fall asleep during meditation. I get that there's some insight to it. I mean, obviously I'm asleep, and yet there's awareness. There are no narratives going on, and that takes away a lot of the separation. Is there something more to it? Am I missing something?

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 10:53 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I got some of the same stuff when going through dissolution last week but never thought to ask questions about insights. I just never thought of anything else to do besides rest into it instead of getting mad about falling asleep during practice or just getting up and stopping practice. I am interested to see your questions answered.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 1:57 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'd be most grateful if someone could tell me the point of lucid dreamless sleep. I have heard that there are people who work hard to get there, so I suspect there is something one could do with it other than listening to and feeling one's body snoring for 40 minutes or so. I never really intended to learn to stay aware while in deep sleep. It just happens now and then, when I fall asleep during meditation. I get that there's some insight to it. I mean, obviously I'm asleep, and yet there's awareness. There are no narratives going on, and that takes away a lot of the separation. Is there something more to it? Am I missing something?

it allows you to maintain mindfulnes while asleep, thereby extending the period of meditation, and associated purification, significantly.

Just my opinion.

Malcolm

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 2:17 PM as a reply to curious.
Is there a way to be mindful about something more than snoring and the occasional purring cat on my chest? How do I make the best of the opportunity?

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 3:52 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Try mindfulness of mild piti throughout the body.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 7:52 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Hi Linda,

Technically in Tibetan practice, the conscious experience of deep, dreamless sleep is sleep yoga. Conscious or lucid dreaming is dream yoga. Sleep and dream yoga are one of the 6 Yogas of Naropa. Andrew Holecek has an excellent book on it 'Dream Yoga' here: https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Yoga-Illuminating-Through-Dreaming/dp/1622034597/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=tibetan+dream+yoga&qid=1577410092&sr=8-2.

I've read through the book twice, taken a course online with Andrew and an in person course with Stephen LaBerge, a Stanford psychologist who was the first Western scientist to study lucid dreaming but, basically, I suck at lucid dreaming. Every time I get lucid, I either wake up or fall back into nonconscious dreaming because I want to see how the story plays out. I've been trying it for years and gotten nowhere. My Mahamudra teacher says not to worry, don't make it one more thing to beat yourself up about, so I don't. Sleep yoga, remaining conscious during dreamless sleep, is supposed to be more difficult.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 11:29 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
It's considered a gateway to the deepest layer of clear light mind, in Tibetan Buddhism (other gates include sneezing, dying and orgasm).  These are points when consciousness is not covered over by other things.  According to that doctrine, there are subtle obstructions to attaining omniscience & these can only be overcome by connecting & sustaining with this level of mind.  This is considered by TB to be more than arahantship, which involves overcoming emotional obscurations; that can be accomplished through more shallow levels of mind.

Of course none of this is relevant if someone doesn't believe in the traditional models - i.e. 'emotional perfection models' or 'powers models' of MCTB.  

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 11:54 PM as a reply to Dustin.
Resting into it is basically what I do too, and I think it's wise not to beat oneself up for what is, but I was curious to see if there's more to it. It seems like we have an opportunity for something at least. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/26/19 11:57 PM as a reply to curious.
curious:
Try mindfulness of mild piti throughout the body.


Will do. Thanks! I have done some of that already, but I can probably develop that. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/27/19 12:02 AM as a reply to svmonk.
svmonk:
Hi Linda,

Technically in Tibetan practice, the conscious experience of deep, dreamless sleep is sleep yoga. Conscious or lucid dreaming is dream yoga. Sleep and dream yoga are one of the 6 Yogas of Naropa. Andrew Holecek has an excellent book on it 'Dream Yoga' here: https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Yoga-Illuminating-Through-Dreaming/dp/1622034597/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=tibetan+dream+yoga&qid=1577410092&sr=8-2.

I've read through the book twice, taken a course online with Andrew and an in person course with Stephen LaBerge, a Stanford psychologist who was the first Western scientist to study lucid dreaming but, basically, I suck at lucid dreaming. Every time I get lucid, I either wake up or fall back into nonconscious dreaming because I want to see how the story plays out. I've been trying it for years and gotten nowhere. My Mahamudra teacher says not to worry, don't make it one more thing to beat yourself up about, so I don't. Sleep yoga, remaining conscious during dreamless sleep, is supposed to be more difficult.
Great, thankyou! I have had a few lucid dreams, but like you I tend to be interested in how the story plays out. I haven't been trying, though, as I didn't know what to do with it anyway. I get into the lucid dreamless sleep more often for some reason. Maybe it is because I so often meditate in a reclining position that is very restful for the body. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/27/19 12:20 AM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
It's considered a gateway to the deepest layer of clear light mind, in Tibetan Buddhism (other gates include sneezing, dying and orgasm).  These are points when consciousness is not covered over by other things.  According to that doctrine, there are subtle obstructions to attaining omniscience & these can only be overcome by connecting & sustaining with this level of mind.  This is considered by TB to be more than arahantship, which involves overcoming emotional obscurations; that can be accomplished through more shallow levels of mind.

Of course none of this is relevant if someone doesn't believe in the traditional models - i.e. 'emotional perfection models' or 'powers models' of MCTB.  
Heh, I'm certainly nowhere near arahantship, let alone beyond it, and I don't believe in those models. It seems like it could still be an opportunity for something, though, so I may as well try to develop it. Thanks! I had to look up the powers model again, and I found that there is also a section about sleep models in MCTB2 with some reading recommendations:

"You can find further information about models like this in books such as B. Alan Wallace’s Dreaming Yourself Awake: Lucid Dreaming and Tibetan Dream Yoga for Insight and Transformation, as well as Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche’s The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep. I really like Tenzin Wangyal’s other works also, such as Wonders of the Natural Mind, and I recommend you check out his take on practice. Also recommended is Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying: An Exploration of Consciousness with the Dalai Lama, edited and narrated by Francisco Varela. I personally haven’t yet done as much of those formal sleep-related practices as I have done the other practices that I discuss in this book, so if you want more information about them, you should get it from those who have experience with them."

I have listened to some of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's dharma talks on youtube (I like him) but not gotten to the part about what one should do with the lucid dreamless sleep, as it seems to be more focus on how to get there. I'll have to read the book, I guess.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/27/19 1:03 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I have the sense that there is some kind of disentangling going on, which I'm tuning into kinesthetically. Is that a valid practice?

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/27/19 2:58 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Happened to me accidentally once and I wouldn't say I had any direct insight from it (though there was a hint of insight flavor just from the stretching of what I believed possible) but it was profoundly peaceful in a way most meditation states other than high EQ in 4th jhana aren't.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/28/19 11:35 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have the sense that there is some kind of disentangling going on, which I'm tuning into kinesthetically. Is that a valid practice?

Yes. It is the it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of the sankharas, the giving up and relinquishing of them, freedom from them, non-reliance on them.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/28/19 4:33 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
If you have the ability to be lucid in deep sleep, I would pursue it if I were you, even if you don't believe in it's traditional significance.  That's a really good thing to be able to do naturally.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/28/19 6:29 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
It happens to me sometimes that I fall asleep with my mind brightening and in the morning it seems that I was aware during dreamless sleep. I'm starting to suspect that falling into dark/unaware sleep is an act of willful ignorance, like going out on a sunny day with a hood over your head and pretending it's dark. I just started reading Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep and it seems pretty cool. I'm quite excited by the prospect of being able to add an extra 6 hours of meditation to my day.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/28/19 10:03 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Is there a way to be mindful about something more than snoring and the occasional purring cat on my chest? How do I make the best of the opportunity?


Not 100% sure what you mean by this, but just a clarification in case it is needed that if you are aware of snoring and your cat purring it is not lucidity in deep sleep but lucidity in hypnopomp or hypnagogia (or while awake).

In lucid deep sleep there is nothing much to be aware of.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/29/19 2:28 AM as a reply to neko.
neko:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Is there a way to be mindful about something more than snoring and the occasional purring cat on my chest? How do I make the best of the opportunity?


Not 100% sure what you mean by this, but just a clarification in case it is needed that if you are aware of snoring and your cat purring it is not lucidity in deep sleep but lucidity in hypnopomp or hypnagogia (or while awake).

In lucid deep sleep there is nothing much to be aware of.

There are different states of dreamless sleep. One is light, and that is where I'm aware of the snooring and the occasional purring cat, and if I hear another cat scratching on my door to get in, I can wake my body up to open it. There are also two states of deep dreamless sleep, often lumped together into one. I have been lucid in one of them on occasion, I think, and then I was only aware of being aware, although I didn't have the concept for it other than in retrospect. Sorry for being unclear, and thankyou!

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/29/19 2:36 AM as a reply to curious.
curious:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have the sense that there is some kind of disentangling going on, which I'm tuning into kinesthetically. Is that a valid practice?

Yes. It is the it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of the sankharas, the giving up and relinquishing of them, freedom from them, non-reliance on them.
I'd better keep at it, then, because lots of sankharas still remain. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/29/19 2:40 AM as a reply to Noah D.
Noah D:
If you have the ability to be lucid in deep sleep, I would pursue it if I were you, even if you don't believe in it's traditional significance.  That's a really good thing to be able to do naturally.


Okay, thankyou! It's not something I'm in control of, but it happens. I guess I'll keep at it during the snoring, then, to reach the deeper state that is beyond it. I have done so a few times, but I wasn't sure if there was any use to it, as it seems like a state of conscious oblivion.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/29/19 2:44 AM as a reply to agnostic.
agnostic:
It happens to me sometimes that I fall asleep with my mind brightening and in the morning it seems that I was aware during dreamless sleep. I'm starting to suspect that falling into dark/unaware sleep is an act of willful ignorance, like going out on a sunny day with a hood over your head and pretending it's dark. I just started reading Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep and it seems pretty cool. I'm quite excited by the prospect of being able to add an extra 6 hours of meditation to my day.

It was exactly that prospect that made me think that maybe staying aware wasn't enough, that maybe something should be "done", but maybe just staying aware, and nothing else, is the point of it?

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/29/19 3:31 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
There are different states of dreamless sleep. One is light, and that is where I'm aware of the snooring and the occasional purring cat, and if I hear another cat scratching on my door to get in, I can wake my body up to open it.

This would most likely be a form of lucidity during hyponopompic sleep 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnopompic


Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
in one of them on occasion, I think, and then I was only aware of being aware, although I didn't have the concept for it other than in retrospect.

This one, on the other hand, sounds like a legit form of lucidity in deep sleep.

Based on my own experience, I wouldn't rate one as superior to the other in terms of potential for contemplative work.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/29/19 5:57 AM as a reply to neko.
Yeah, I think there have been instances of both hypnagogic and hypnopompic awareness, as well as instances of deep sleep awareness. This is something that has been going on for quite some time. There have been periods in my practice where I have spent hours shifting between stages without having the words to describe it. I think the extent of awareness in these states is something that has developed gradually. 

Shall I just let this unfold on its own? Or is there something in particular that I should "do"?

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/29/19 7:18 AM as a reply to curious.
curious:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have the sense that there is some kind of disentangling going on, which I'm tuning into kinesthetically. Is that a valid practice?

Yes. It is the it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of the sankharas, the giving up and relinquishing of them, freedom from them, non-reliance on them.
It's something like having a kinesthetic flashlight shedding light on various knots, enabling them to disentangle themselves. It seems to be easier to have that happen when the narrator sleeps. 

Also, many thanks for your input! I always appreciate your advice.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/30/19 3:34 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I'm so happy to see this thread here, was thinking of making my own one - thank you all! I have some rudimentary answers and some big questions myself!
 
Currently sleep yoga is one of my main practices, which also developed naturally from rather hardcore hwadu/big question practice. In Korean zen tradition, where I come from, big question is similar, I would say, to what you guys here call "insight into annata". Basically it's a highly concentrated effort to examine each microsecond of experience searching for any solid self. Both on cushion and off and later (in my case after 18 years) in dreams and dreamless sleep.
 
So this might be already a hint of the value of dreamless sleep practice. Why? Because - at least in my case - it happened not only thanks to concentration but more - thanks to insight into no-self. In my case it was a result of gradual cultivation after a certified kensho/insight into nature experience.
 
I write about confirmation because later I want to write that pherhaps what traditional zen and contemporary Roshi/teacher will confirm as a "first enlightenment" experience, looses it's relevance in the face of deeper insights that come as the path develops. And both dzogchen and vipasanna/theravada schools know about it :-(.
 
But for the sake of the respect let's say that insight into no-self is a continuum of deeper and more shallow insights.
 
Side note: About the variations of lucid dreamless sleep (awareness of some sensory content, awareness of some mental content, awareness of awareness etc.) you can read here. Neuroscientist think that it all happens in N3-N4 stages of sleep (meaning deep sleep, not only hipo and hypnogogic states).
 
As you, Polly said, in awareness of awareness there is both untangling and dropping the division of subject-object there. This is very interesting to me. Obviously it helps in stabilizing insight into self as boundariless process rather than a thing. Repetition 24/7 will wire it into the brain and transform your energy body networks. Personally, I can observe the whole dependent origination from there and the selfing process - deconstruction of senses and other aggregates to pure awareness from waking to deep sleep and later reconstructions. 
 
You also say it's like being aware of the oblivion. This one is super interesting! I believe after many consultations and much research this is where the rigpa/cessation/gone or whatever-it-is can "manifest". Can write more later.
 
I don't want to write too long of a post in the begining but hope to hear everyone's opinions.
 
Neko, I studied your super analitical post here about similarity of dreamless sleep and formless jhanas and went through similar process and questions. I wonder where you got with the questions you post there.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
12/31/19 1:32 AM as a reply to hae1en.
I thank you deeply for sharing your experience with this. It inspires to further exploration, especially since you mention that you can "observe the whole dependent origination from there and the selfing process - deconstruction of senses and other aggregates to pure awareness from waking to deep sleep and later reconstructions". I want to do that! Fascinating. 

It was also very interesting to read the research paper you linked, which questioned previous classifications of sleep stages in a way that definitely makes sense. 

I would love to hear more about your insights into this. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
lucid dreaming dream yoga lucid dreams dreamless sleep
Answer
2/13/20 6:03 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Hi Polly and hopefully other wise friends!

I'm sorry for not having written earlier, but life-events (including divorce…) downed on me, so… but since I'm sleeping alone it's easier to observe the dream process. I'm at the begining of a solo retreat right now.
 
Below some summaries of my sleep practice so far. Currently I am not conscious of the first part of the night, where the deepest sleep phases N4 and N3 are the longest. Question 1 is: am I ever lucid in N3/4?
 
Lucidity starts in the second part of the night. Sometimes I meditate after waking up about 3.30 am or just go back to sleep. If I enter the jhanas, the usual panoramic phenomena follow (I try not to touch any piti much and probably skip 4th jhana, which is kind of easily distinguishable for me otherwise, because in high equanimity there is a feeling of being very wise ;-) and at night this seldom happens). Question 2 is: Am I entering the formless jhanas almost immediately? Is that possible?
 
Sooner or later there is probably the entry into the formless jhanas and currently I equate them with dreamless sleep (sub)phases. Question 3 is: is this correct?
 
The below disappear (notice that the order is similar to dependent origination):
  1. Emotions and discursive thinking (naming) (if any)
  2. Sense of time
  3. Biographical sense of self and access to memories
  4. Emotional sense of self (emotional marker/perfume)
  5. Senses start to shut down with proprioception as the last one
  6. Spacious sense of self (location in space) after the bodily sensations disappeared
  7. In pure awareness (substrate consciousness) only intention operates (if it was properly installed earlier, because at this point new intentional effort is not possible anymore)
 At this point various scenarios (one or many) can happen until waking up:
  1. Intention continues the practice (seeing 3C, hwadu, don't know, even mantra etc.) - that's maybe your question what can be done here, Polly
  2. Intention erodes leaving:
    • lucid blank (I call it moss ;-), but Question 4 is if it's 7th jhana of nothingness) or
    • luminous (Question 5: 6th jhana of consciousness?) pure awareness
  3. Pure awareness is leaking content of the senses - hearing cats, rain, feeling the sheets rolled and if that's possible (Question 6) I sometimes even feel the roof of my house, the furniture or the space and trees behind the window, used to feel my husband's body and his emotional marker
  4. Substrate consciousness starts to project single hipnagoges (voices, 3d colorful objects in black space or sacred geometry like indra's net)
  5. Immersive non-lucid dream of a typical mortal ;-)
  6. Immersive lucid dream can happen (especially when pure awareness was luminous, Question 7 is whether luminosity as a prerequisite is a must)
  7. Immersive non-lucid dream can happen with strange factor X lucid aspect in the background.
  8. Lucid aspect itself???? Have mostly Big Questions here.
 Question 8: If we enter from jhana to lucid dream staying lucid all the way, it's clear that lucid dreamless sleep happened in the meantime, right? Because from waking up to REM/N1/dream there are phases N2/3/4 of dreamless sleep to go through. So maybe it's a proof lucid dreamless sleep=formless jhana? We would have to check the physiological parameters of the two states.

If any advanced or experimenting yogi or scholar on this forum ever pondered any of these questions, I would be very happy to talk more! 
 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
2/15/20 5:40 AM as a reply to hae1en.
Hi! I'm very familiar with life-events taking the space they need. May they lead to less suffering and may you have the strength, courage, wisdom and compassion to skillfully deal with the suffering they do involve.

Thanks for a very interesting read! My lucidity is still rare during the night. It mainly happens when I sleep during the day, and that probably means that my sleep is less deep when it occurs. It does happen during a later part of the night sometimes, though, especially if I sleep together with somebody else - which probably also makes my dream somewhat more shallow, even though I feel deeply rested when I wake up.

As for question 6, that happens to me during meditation sometimes. I can vividly feel my kid's movements and sensations and the same for my cats, and I can even feel the friction between my wheels and the ground when a car passes by. During sleep, I once dreamt the ending of a dream that my husband at the time dreamt during the same night. In his dream he was pondering a question, and my dream was the answer to that. When hearing what my husband had dreamt, my dream made sense instead of being nonsensical. It was a very specific question and a very specific answer (nothing containing life wisdom, only trivial and rather absurd). I also tended to pick up on dreams that were typical for him but very untypical for me, so I guess I was tuned into him. I'm thinking that awareness isn't always fully restricted to the mind of an individual.

As for question 2, I have previously been wondering about formless realms for some of these experiences, but I came to the conclusion for my case - which may be entirely different from yours - that there wasn't the kind of concentration and onepointedness that would make it a jhana, but rather the opposite in that sense, although there was strong clarity in some cases in the sense of a very clear presence. I'm still not confident in mapping that sort of thing, though, so this could be total bullshit. 

You are beyond me in this, so I hope somebody more knowledgeable will chime in. 

I did have a lucid out of body experience during sleep once, after my dad had passed away. I was having a conversation with him. It turned out that the same thing had happened to my brother too. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
2/15/20 9:34 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
What do you know... I accidently found some use for lucid dreamless sleep. I have been having an earworm today, a song that we used to sing in a choir 20 years ago or so, 25 maybe. The lyrics were in French, and I don't speak French. Thus I couldn't remember more than a few words, which is kind of irritating when you have a tune stuck in your head. After lunch I decided to do a reclining letting go meditation, typically the sort of meditation where I risk falling asleep. I needed to rest anyway, so why not. After a couple of unknowing events I was very relaxed and fell asleep. I stayed lucid but didn't have any thoughts that I can recall apart from recognizing being asleep and hearing and feeling the breath and the occasional snoring. After one and a half hour I had to wake myself up and go to the bathroom. There I found myself singing the song, with the complete lyrics in French. I could even remember the spelling of most of it. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
Answer
2/15/20 9:45 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Just a general reminder that the answer to "is the experience X jhana number N?" is ALWAYS "it depends" (on how you define jhana number N).

Put otherwise, unless you define jhanas first, the question is intrinsically meaningless.

A more useful question is almost always "what do I do with this?", to which the answer is ALWAYS "that depends" (on what your goals are).

What makes the second one a better question is that asking oneself "what are my goals?" is almost always a better something to busy oneself with than what ultimately boils down to "do I define jhana in such a way that I have attained it, or not?",  which is often mindlessly masturbatory in nature, unless it ties back to your goals (e.g. "do I want bragging rights?").

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 9:51 AM as a reply to neko.
(The lucid phases of sleep, unlike the jhanas, are pretty well defined, so I suggest sticking with those. You get the best of what worlds: People will understand what you are talking about AND you get the bragging rights, as lucid dreamless sleep is a pretty fine attainment indeed, particularly if you can pull it off with any kind of consistency, which is much better than some 400$ per hour "gurus" out there can do. So kudos.)

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 9:57 AM as a reply to neko.
Good points. 

For the moment I have as an immediate goal to learn to let go of stuff that causes unnecessary suffering for me and/or others. Jhanas are not that relevant to that goal*, but being able to rest deeply at will is useful, regardless of how anyone defines it. 

(Remembering French lyrics to my earworm 25 years after singing it in choir was not a conscious goal, but apparently the session took care of that anyway.)

*) edited to add: Not for me anyway. For me the step is too big to go from obsessing with something to jhanas. I find it easier to relax in an unfocused way when I need to let go.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 10:21 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

For the moment I have as an immediate goal to learn to let go of stuff that causes unnecessary suffering for me and/or others. 

Tobacco, drunk driving, and listening to loudspeakers on public transport come to mind as effective candidates for that. Good news is you can still keep up a meditation practice on top of that. 

If you are already abiding by basic manners, there is not much I can offer in the way of help on that front.

When it comes to causing necessary suffering to others, though... now that's a topic that piques my interest and makes me prick up my ears. But it s maybe for another thread. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 10:47 AM as a reply to neko.
Haha! I don't do any of those things, and I do my best to maintain basic manners, but I can be a bit of control freak in some respects and I have some triggers that cause me to be more reactive than I would like. You know, the usual stuff that most of us struggle with. The stuff that holds awakening back. 

I think I have been pretty good at causing necessary suffering for people, as I sometimes see a little bit more than allows people to stay in their comfort zone and sometimes - unfortunately or fortunately, depending on circumstances - lack the patience to shut up about it. Quite a number of people have thanked me afterwards for being an eye opener and helping them to develop and grow and even on the long term decreasing their suffering. That is very risky business, though, and I have worked a lot on learning when it really isn't necessary, and that is something that I still need to remind myself of, because not everyone is ready for a development just because I see the potential, and forcing it on someone can be cruel. I have a sense that you are very familiar with this sort of thing yourself?

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 11:06 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I can be a bit of control freak in some respects and I have some triggers that cause me to be more reactive than I would like. You know, the usual stuff that most of us struggle with. The stuff that holds awakening back. 

In this case, the thing that you call an awakening is not the thing that I call an awakening.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 11:06 AM as a reply to neko.
It probably is at least partly in my case, though, because it messes up my practice. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 11:13 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
It probably is at least partly in my case, though, because it messes up my practice. 

The claim that psychological imperfections get in the way of awakening is just an alternative formulation of the idea that awakening implies psychological perfection by way of "if A implies B, then not B implies not A".

Just making sure that you are aware that you are adopting a psychological / behavioural perfection model of awakening. (EDIT: Or something pretty darn close to it.)

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 11:14 AM as a reply to neko.
Oh, no no. Not like that. It messes up my practice by distracting me and making me tense and unfocused. And it makes it pretty darn hard to have cessations or get into jhanas.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 11:36 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
It holds me back technically, not morally.

Well, it may be holding me back morally too, but that's not what I was thinking about and I don't think of awakening and morality work as the same thing. It's just hard to meditate when I'm wired up, worried or pissed off. As simple as that. 

Or overly enthusiastic, for that matter.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 11:51 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
It messes up my practice by distracting me and making me tense and unfocused.

This is not the most effective way to look at hindrances and interruptions to your practice. Neko is making a very important point - if things bother you the way to approach them is to investigate why. There is a point at which these things will stop being bothersome, but that point only comes if the bothers are addressed.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 12:02 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
And that is exactly why I'm currently doing the kind of practice that I'm doing. Because I do that. I combine letting go with vipassana, to investigate just like that. I don't always write down all details publicly, especially not in a thread about something else.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 11:59 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
If anyone wants to chime in on lucid dreamless sleep, I'm sure hae1en would like your input. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 12:49 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
It messes up my practice by distracting me and making me tense and unfocused.

This is not the most effective way to look at hindrances and interruptions to your practice. Neko is making a very important point - if things bother you the way to approach them is to investigate why. There is a point at which these things will stop being bothersome, but that point only comes if the bothers are addressed.

Actually, I was thinking about editing in that of course I also know that it is a great opportunity for investigation, but I thought it was off topic so I didn't. It is a good point. But I wrote what I did to adress what Neko was talking about, namely ideas of moral perfection or whatever one wants to call it. I was trying to very briefly clarify that I do not adhere to such models. 

One thing that really does bother me is how hopeless it is to communicate with more than one person at a time and keep it short and effective without being misunderstood. It is really draining for me, especially since I process a lot of my thoughts on a less conceptual level (that's an autistic thing, not a claim about some attainment, by the way, just to be clear about that) and have to translate it into words. And so I need to be able to let go sufficiently to make investigation possible, because otherwise it isn't. That's life with a combination of being autistic and having ADHD and Tourette syndrome. And some related traumas, for that matter. And when I do explain the specifics that makes what I say make sense to others, there will always be someone that tells me that I invest too much in identity and need to let go of that. Well, I try, but when I do, nobody understands a bloody thing of what I'm saying because my conditioning challenges the common ground in communication. Or rather, the difference in conditioning does.  

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 1:08 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Hi! Great to see some traffic in this thread.:
My lucidity is still rare during the night. It mainly happens when I sleep during the day, and that probably means that my sleep is less deep when it occurs. It does happen during a later part of the night sometimes.
As for question 6, that happens to me during meditation sometimes. I can vividly feel my kid's movements and sensations and the same for my cats, and I can even feel the friction between my wheels and the ground when a car passes by. During sleep, I once dreamt the ending of a dream that my husband at the time dreamt during the same night. 
As for question 2, I have previously been wondering about formless realms for some of these experiences, but I came to the conclusion for my case - which may be entirely different from yours - that there wasn't the kind of concentration and onepointedness that would make it a jhana, but rather the opposite in that sense, although there was strong clarity in some cases in the sense of a very clear presence.
Regarding lucidity during the day naps and early morning sleep, I know how it tastes. It might mean that we are not lucid beyond the N2/N3 phases of sleep. Some people call only N4 phase deep sleep. And N4 does not occur in the morning.

These "kinestethic" impressions are a totally different subject, but very interesting as well. Assuming they are not our brains firing to sustain the map of our environment but based on memory not on actual new input - and I am guessing we have some first person perspective proofs for it ;-)... wouldn't it mean that the trained awareness is somehow outstretched beyond the content of the senses? But it goes against buddhist psychology, doesn't it?

Sometimes when I'm with someone say in an emotionally loaded situation and with closed eyes I seem to feel two distinguished presences which I call sense of self markers - only one is mine. "So this is how to be a bat, so this is how it feels being you :-))". It's like you could borrow someone's elses qualia. Or maybe it's just as we all had a distinct perfume we emit and it's somehow related to the shapes of our bodies. And a thought comes at such times: what is it that perceives those two people? When I'm entering deeper meditations my own sense of self marker and body outline in the begining hang in the air and then they are being relocated to the peripheral awareness to die :-). So this happens in sleep as well.

As far as jhanas are concerned, especially formless ones (if we decide to define/name them like this) - the notion that they are not clear or single pointed seems important here. If you are familiar with some hard jhanas (like Ajahn Brahm's) descriptions, they are pretty solid-dense, to the degree that you can't even do any vipassana in them. And that makes them dull in a sense. And that is why Thanissaro Bhikku calls them toxic, right? Unless you have impregnated them earlier with intention heavy enough to sustain itself there. Anyhow, I've been in hard jhana (closed sense doors) only once in my life in waking state - but it was similar to being there while sleeping, which is what I have rather regular access to right now.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 1:11 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
To get back on topic, it might be the case that I got into lucid dreamless sleep for the purpose of survival, because there was a great need for rest from language while staying lucid, to find the kind of space that would make life bearable and allow for healing and regeneration and provide the energy needed both for investigation and for dealing with stuff in daily life. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 1:32 PM as a reply to neko.
neko:
(The lucid phases of sleep, unlike the jhanas, are pretty well defined, so I suggest sticking with those. You get the best of what worlds: People will understand what you are talking about AND you get the bragging rights, as lucid dreamless sleep is a pretty fine attainment.

Hi Neko, thanks for answering. I was following some of your lucid dream adventures a while ago. I'm seeing you gave up mapping lucid sleep and jhanas. Am I guessing correctly that you have answered your own question: Why do I do it for? May I ask if you are using lucid sleep for any kind of practice right now?

I come from a Korean zen tradition, where we keep a great question (hwadu) gradually being able to sustain it from waking to dreaming to dreamless sleep stages. It works as a feedback of how your practice is progressing, a measure of your breakthrough depth I would say. 

My goal here is to I guess clarify the way in which my lineage understands awakening. And to see what is it that we are actually teaching. Aren't we teaching concentration only and not real insight.... This is actually pretty delicate issue, because it makes me wonder if my own teachers and their teachers really could distinguish:
  • the landscapes of jhanas (with eyes closed) or
  • unitive experiences (when self unites with outside world and recognises the sky and ground as it's own greater seat/body) or 
  • pure awareness empty of objects (assuming that such massive phenomena like luminosity or bliss are not objects
from real end of fabrications. I'm not a scholar, but have read a bit and traditionally some zen schools were following Yogachara model of transformation of 8 consciousnessess, including alayavijnana (which transforms into bright mirror pure awareness). And of course some other schools (like dzogchen, here is a great article from Alan Wallec) say that samatha practice breaks only through your individual psyche towards this substrate pure awareness, but this is not the end and pure awareness also has to be emptied.

I spent significant amount of years and dedicated big part of my life to my lineage to be very worried when I now discover something more in my own practice and when I ponder if I am qualified enough to help others. 

As Polly below I will be grateful for some sensitivity here. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 1:41 PM as a reply to hae1en.
Very interesting!

That hypothesis makes sense, but I guess it's an empirical question. I hear that some stay lucid throughout the night. Maybe some day we can too. I'm very far from it now, though. 

I don't know what buddhist psychology says, but empirically, I mean phenomenologically, there does seem to be awareness beyond what the sense organs can perceive, depending on how we define sense organs. But the mind is a sense, too, after all. I don't think of the mind as the same thing as the brain, so I wouldn't call it a sense organ. I wouldn't say that awareness in the examples we have put forward goes beyond what the mind can perceive of itself. I'm not sure that minds are strictly individual, at least not all the time. The boundaries of what people think of as individual is very arbitrary, I'd say. And obviously, this information did appear in our minds, right? I don't know how, but it did. My current very rudimentary explanation model is that awareness doesn't know boundaries, only our access to it does, and that has some flexibility to it. I wonder if lucid dreamless sleep can get around the limitations that we are used to having. Maybe it is sort of a hack that makes it possible to tap into a less limited awareness? I guess that's an empirical question too.

I think I recognize what you say about feeling one's partner's sense of self marker too (useful concept, by the way). For me that mainly happens during sex. And yes, floating out to peripheral awareness too.

I don't think I have been in what anyone would define as hard jhana. I once did have the feeling that everything was completely solid and dense, though, and even time was matter. That was really weird. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/15/20 10:57 PM as a reply to hae1en.
hae1en:
Hi Neko, thanks for answering. I was following some of your lucid dream adventures a while ago. I'm seeing you gave up mapping lucid sleep and jhanas.
Not at all. I just gave up the idea that the word "jhana" has any meaning that is commonly accepted and universally understood by all practitioners. Besides, I am not a Buddhist, so I am not invested in the idea that there is any "true meaning" of the word jhana that we need to rediscover to do things correctly.

I use a bunch of maps for concentration states and lucid dreaming. I am quite the map freak. The so-called "glossary of fire kasina practice", which I have contributed to, is one big chunk of my current lucid dreaming / lucid sleep map and practice. Same goes with concentration, I use about five or six different maps for that. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/16/20 1:42 AM as a reply to neko.
Okay, that sparked my inner phenomenology junky. Can we find all those maps somewhere? 

Edit: Okay, so that was written before my ADHD medication kicked in. Sorry. It's right there in that glossary, right? I'll have to check it out.

To clarify: I do have a more long-term goal of exploring as many states of consciousness as I possibly can, just for the fun of it. It's just that I currently have to prioritize survival (and decreased suffering is included in that) due to circumstances, and I believe that being able to temporarily let go of any hang-ups at will is necessary for that goal as well. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/16/20 11:43 AM as a reply to neko.
Is this what you mean? https://firekasina.org/glossary/

First couple of minutes when reading I was wondering, if I'm on the right site, but then I got an idea. Is this what you do with hipnagoges?

This seems very advanced, to be able to sustain hipnagoges at such geometric level avoiding going straight to more symbolically loaded or immersive lucid dream. And generally advanced... given that there can be no apparent nimitta when one goes to sleep. For some people. Do you equate lucid dream in this stage with fourth screen? Some of my late stage hipnagoges come from early stage lava-like nimittas generated by mind only. How long can you sustain such hipnagoges? Do you also play with sound (or touch/taste) hipnagoges building up their complexity? Apart from feedback on your concentration level - how do you make use of it? If this is too personal to share (together with your maps etc.) - just wink ;-).

Not a long ago I met a dzogchen practitioner who told me that when they pracitice samatha there use visual signs of success. One of them is called Indra's net, it's like a web with sparkling diamond-like dots on the intersections (or without). Tends to be 3d/not flat. Then other signs of progression follow. I get this sometimes but never paid any attention. But it's similar to the field of stars. I haven't been reading much of DhO but I think Polly also wrote sth about it elswhere? 

Anyhow, wonder how it's useful. Personally I'm currently invested in the self-construction, DO and aggregates construction which happen in dream/sleep. For example:
  1. How many subsections or microfunctions consciousness have and how is it to operate with and without them in sleep/dream: discursive thinking, recognising names, recognising function with and without overlays of biographical self or pure awareness/true self.
  2. How does will and intention work out in the dream/sleep.
  3. What does memory have to do with it? How the dream memory is formed? What percentage of it is 1:1 reconstruction and what percentage reinterpretation? Especially when we return from "transpersonal dreams" with altered/deconstructed consciousness which attains various peak experiences or valid insights to personal vantage point.
  4. How can we use kinesthetic memory / experience marker as an intention transporting us later to that experience?
  5. In each non-lucid dream aggregates function, since usually biographical self is reconstructed, therfore consciousness is also reconstructed. Technically speaking if we want to call dreams consciouss -all of them are consciouss. So it must be another function of consciousness which helps us to realise we are dreaming. How would we name this function? Simply criticism?
  6. What is it that can be aware of both high clarity and dulness? Or is it just a continuum of high clarity----->low clarity imbued directly within objects? If so, what gives these objects priority, making some of them clearer?
  7. And most important - Is there any pure formless awareness in the sleep or is just the so called pure awareness a major, massive, panoramic manifestation/object like space or luminosity or energy current. 
Curious, if anyone was working with any of these and is willing to share.
 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/16/20 12:04 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
In the consciousness model of Yogachara, which is I guess closest to what we call phenomenological, I think that individual streams of conscioussness meet in alayavijnana, 8th consciousness. They believed it's the source of both material and mental phenomena. The sixth consciousness, mano vijnana, can be called sense organ for thoughts. Apparently buddhist psychology views thoughts similarily to sounds or sights. They are something which becomes the content when illumined by... well, by alayavijnana again. The same storage house consciousness which stores memories. I would have to check if various siddhi like mind reading are explained through this model.

If dreamless sleep helps us tap to this broader consciousness, that would explained your earlier access to the song in French - because it's the same stream, where memories are stored. 

Also, I sometimes have the impression while in what I call jhanas that the moment my concentration diminishes... if I only silghtly take off my attentive mindfulness finger from the closed doors...  my substrate consciousness (alayavijnana) instead of being calm and frozen will burst out into hipnagoges and dreams (memories). PLUS, sometimes I also have the impression that it can become a door for... something wicked that this way comes ;-). Like samboghakaja like appearances. Still having thought that these conversations might be too personal to share here :-). Don't you feel like this?

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/16/20 12:47 PM as a reply to hae1en.
I did mention visions like Indra's net, although I had no idea that's what they were called. I have also seen different versions of the flower of life, mostly flat ones but also one that was curved around itself and moving around (this was before I had come across depictions of that version). These visions have mainly come in brief flashes, both in meditation and while waking up in the morning, but around SE and in one of my reviews they would linger. I'm not a visual person, so to me this was a big deal.

Thanks for the link! I'll dive in to read it. And thanks for all the information about the mythology around this! I know so little. 

I'll have to explore those purple swirls more (flourescent violet is reliably accessible to me whereas access to other colors comes and goes). So much to explore! For me it is easier to work with the nada sound and energetic sensations. I will take up fire kasina again some time, though, in a more systematic way, because my brief first encounters with it were surprisingly effective. I could barely believe my eyes... or my mind, I guess. 

Too personal? Maybe. In my case, it is already common knowledge that I'm weird, so it's not like it would come as a surprise to anyone, inlcuding the professors at the University where I work. I kind of rock the excentric but serious nisch. I'm the bohemian spice to the serious intellectual crews. On a more serious note, I'd be happy to take the conversation elsewhere if you are uncomfortable. No problem. 

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/16/20 2:32 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Just noticed that this thread seems to get relatively lot of traffic, or is it not? I wonder why is it that only we talk? I'm so curious what people think.

RE: Lucid dreamless sleep
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2/16/20 3:19 PM as a reply to hae1en.
They are probably just curious about what neko has to say. Some participants' comments always render lots of viewings. People are pack animals. emoticon

I was just thinking... Isn't it very imprecise to call those color swirls hypnagogic? I periodically have them as I go about doing stuff, with my eyes open. I can't be on the verge of sleeping then, can I? I mean, I do have attention deficit, but... It mainly happens in the dark (which can be during the day here in Sweden) but it also happens at yoga classes and sometimes at other times. Once it happened during an experimental dance show where they used very special sound effects. It took me a while to realize that the psychedelic light show was only in my mind. I was wondering how they managed to make all that light appear among the audience as threedimensional figurations.