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Starting Teaching Bill T 2/1/20 7:05 AM
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RE: Starting Teaching Brandon Dayton 1/27/20 2:35 PM
RE: Starting Teaching Lars 1/27/20 4:27 PM
RE: Starting Teaching Richard Zen 1/28/20 12:24 AM
RE: Starting Teaching Jordi 1/29/20 4:03 PM
RE: Starting Teaching Bill T 1/30/20 7:07 AM
RE: Starting Teaching Vladimir Zetko 1/30/20 8:42 AM
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RE: Starting Teaching Bill T 1/30/20 9:36 AM
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RE: Starting Teaching Che Guebuddha 1/31/20 5:32 PM
RE: Starting Teaching Bill T 2/1/20 7:08 AM
RE: Starting Teaching Chris Marti 2/1/20 9:55 AM
RE: Starting Teaching Bill T 2/1/20 11:15 AM
Starting Teaching
Answer
2/1/20 7:05 AM
[EDIT - Just to be clear, I'm not rushing into anything. As I keep on getting the same kind of "BEWARE, YOUNG PADWAN" responses. For context, I'm currently looking into MBSR teacher-training and other 'shallows' stuff. Not looking to go and set up my own Ashram with "Behold, Bill, the Enlightened Master" carved in gold over my head.

OK, thanks for your understanding.]

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I'm feeling inspired to start teaching meditation in some capacity. This thread is a request for advice on teaching, and also an offer of help.

Background: I’ve been teaching ‘other stuff’ on and off for 20 years. Started in music technology, later English and design. I’ve been meditating for a similar time, and learnt most of what I know via Goenka courses. Recently I’ve been exploring new techniques and territories via MCTB and the online teachings of Ingram, Shinzen Young and others. (So much great stuff out there now!) 

In terms of ‘insight stage’ - I’ve been through many A&P events over the years, and I believe I’ve made good progress with equanimity - mainly via 7+ 10-day Vipassana retreats, plus a few short ones and some serving. Been through all kinds of psychedelic and dukkha nana stuff. Don’t believe I’ve made it to stream entry, as yet.

Recent progress in meditation has inspired me to give back and help others (I know, classic A&P symptom, but please bear with me). I’ve taught a *little* bit of meditation during a Design course I was leading. Took students through a simple 5 minute mindfulness session. This was very well received.

So ... I’m keen now to help, whether this be via coaching online, teaching beginners in person, or something else. If anyone has any advice on getting started, I’d greatly appreciate your thoughts.

Likewise, if anyone is looking for help, I’d be happy to coach or advise (for free / Dana donation to a charity). My email = bill at btribble dot com.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 11:59 AM as a reply to Bill T.
Why?

That's an important question to ask yourself right now. Be honest.

emoticon

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 12:31 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
That's a good prompt, thanks Chris.

Why teach? Really: To give back. I feel so blessed to be where I am right now, and to have found the advice, guidance, teachers, and communities I've found.

I'm not interested in making money out of the dharma. Fortunately I have other ways of supporting my family.

But I would like to make meditation more central in my life. I also know from previous experience that teaching is a great way to really learn more about any subject.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 12:41 PM as a reply to Bill T.
I've gone through several rounds of this "I want to teach" thing over the years. I wasn't ready for it and I'm still not ready for it. I'm not well suited to it. I don't have the time or the patience. When I tried it I was overwhelmed with the feeling of responsibility it caused. It's one thing to offer suggestions on a message board. It's a whole different thing to accept a "student" into your life and make that person(s) your first priority. It takes preparation. It takes experience. It requires a long practice history and a ton of heart and mind.

I put "student" in quotes because my experience was that they were teaching me at least as much as I was teaching them.

My teacher, Kenneth Folk, told me I was ready to teach. He was wrong.

My motivation to teach was, as you state yours to be, to give back. I wasn't tuned into what that short phrase actually means (see above).

I never charged anyone and I pray that I never harmed anyone.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 1:44 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thank you Chris for this comment.

And I got reminded of how Shinzen defines different levels of "teaching", and how practice itself can be a form of teaching, or doing skillful actions,... or, having a clear practice log or blog! :-)

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 2:32 PM as a reply to Bill T.
I agree with others here. I've actually done teaching in an accidental way while doing Toastmasters speechs. A lot of the audience were narcissistic and quite envious. They would say things in a negative tone "it must nice that you can do that." You should learn what you can about NPD, BPD and ASPD if you want to prepare for those difficult students. They circle all over anything related to psychology, social work, coaching, and light worker jobs. It's a great place to find prey. A big painful lesson for me is that not everyone deserves your empathy. Read Psychopath Free and Saints and Psychopaths. Read about Boundaries. All teachers need boundaries that don't necessarily match perfectly with a Buddha, and trust me, none of us are The Buddha.

Another question is sexuality. Make sure you are quite thoroughly disgusted with sexuality before you teach someone who is sexy. Either you are super happy with your partner and satisfied or you are training in Buddhist disgust practices. Sexy people create sexual papanca emoticon

Learn everything you can about Psychoanalytic Transference. Students will be doing it to you and you'll be doing it them. Noting "thinking, thinking" isn't as helpful as noting "transference, transference" in those situations. A lot of people are unconsciously looking for a parent to solve their problems.

Starting a blog or doing YouTube videos is preferable because people who search with SEO are already interested in the practice and you can quickly weed out trolls and people who are only skimming. Trust me! Most people are only skimming. Buddhism is a long-term practice, but many are looking for a quick fix. Once they see the work, they'll drop out and leave you alone emoticon 

Learn about some of the Meditation side-effects that Willoughby Britton studied and how to deal with students if they have problems. 

Of course, any legal advice on what to prepare for if someone blames you would be extremely valuable. Then maybe you should consider teaching, otherwise you are risking your own peace. We live in a victim/blame society and many people looking for any authority figures they can target for scapegoating. 

Good luck whatever decision you make! I hope you get some motivated students!

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 5:32 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
Most people are only skimming. Buddhism is a long-term practice, but many are looking for a quick fix. Once they see the work, they'll drop out and leave you alone emoticon 

This x1000. It continues to amaze me. 

Another good teacher thing is to take mental health first aid training. It's offered for free (or a minor cost) at most hospitals. 


https://www.mentalhealthfirstaid.org/

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 6:41 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Richard Zen:
Most people are only skimming. Buddhism is a long-term practice, but many are looking for a quick fix. Once they see the work, they'll drop out and leave you alone emoticon 

This x1000. It continues to amaze me. 


Until people get their 1st jhana they're not quite sure what to make of meditation. If they could get jhana in a pill instructors would be out of a job.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 6:59 PM as a reply to shargrol.
Another good teacher thing is to take mental health first aid training. It's offered for free (or a minor cost) at most hospitals. 

And... go to therapy and work on your own shit before you accidentally foist it on students.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/26/20 7:13 PM as a reply to Bill T.
I’ve been meditating for a similar time, and learnt most of what I know via Goenka courses. Recently I’ve been exploring new techniques and territories via MCTB and the online teachings of Ingram, Shinzen Young and others. (So much great stuff out there now!) 

There is a practical scale of knowledge that I've employed in my career to evaluate this kind of thing:

1. Unconscious incompetent: a person who doesn't know enough to know what they don't know
2. Conscious Incompetent: a person who knows just enough to realize what they don't know
3. Unconscious competent: a person who knows facts, figures and by-the-book type stuff but does not have direct experience
4. Conscious competent: a person who knows the material innately, through experience, and to whom it has become second nature

Where are you on this scale, and would you ask you to be your teacher? Sorry to belabor this stuff but I've seen too many category ones and twos teaching meditation. Please think about this long and hard and, as I originally said, be brutally honest with yourself about why, how and who you want to teach.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/27/20 4:49 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Wow. Thanks all for your concern, and many suggestions! I'm humbled to be part of such a thoughtful community.

@richard Saints & Psycopaths looks like a great read, I'll be in on that for sure. I'm familiar with the Willoughby Britton research via interviews, but will dig in further. Also been through plenty of dukkha nana's myself so I'm fairly confident on spotting them at least.

@shargrol - great suggestion, I'll look into finding the UK equivalent.

@richard this made me laugh! (Also true for exercise, right?)
"Until people get their 1st jhana they're not quite sure what to make of
meditation. If they could get jhana in a pill instructors would be out of a job."

@chris your last question is a tough one. It depends a lot on what you mean by the 'material'. I make no claims to attainments, and don't think I've made Stream Entering. But I'm definitely more of a 'lived experience' meditator than a 'read the book'.

And yeah ... I am my own teacher. Otherwise how the f would I have gotten anywhere with meditation? ;)

In addition to all you lot, and all my dharma friends and teachers of course.

Finally, I want to stress that I'm not about to rush into this thing and will probably take many months or years before I take action beyond this kind of exploration.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/27/20 5:06 AM as a reply to Bill T.
Another note to @chris. I just came across your old meditation log. Thanks for sharing! Inspiring stuff.

RE: Starting Teaching
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1/27/20 6:57 AM as a reply to Bill T.
You're welcome.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/27/20 11:46 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Richard Zen:
Most people are only skimming. Buddhism is a long-term practice, but many are looking for a quick fix. Once they see the work, they'll drop out and leave you alone emoticon 

This x1000. It continues to amaze me. 

Another good teacher thing is to take mental health first aid training. It's offered for free (or a minor cost) at most hospitals. 


https://www.mentalhealthfirstaid.org/
A question i would like to add to anyone on here is how does someone know they really need a teacher. Especially those who are in it for the long haul. I myself have had a teacher which was great but after a while it seemed less useful and also it got expensive. I know 3 other friends of mine that dont have teachers and all seem to be having real good results. At times I really think I could gain knowledge from somones wisdom but other times I feel theres no need. How does someone know? When the student is ready the teacher will appear type deal?

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/27/20 2:37 PM as a reply to Dustin.
Dustin:
shargrol:
Richard Zen:
Most people are only skimming. Buddhism is a long-term practice, but many are looking for a quick fix. Once they see the work, they'll drop out and leave you alone emoticon 

This x1000. It continues to amaze me. 

Another good teacher thing is to take mental health first aid training. It's offered for free (or a minor cost) at most hospitals. 


https://www.mentalhealthfirstaid.org/
A question i would like to add to anyone on here is how does someone know they really need a teacher. Especially those who are in it for the long haul. I myself have had a teacher which was great but after a while it seemed less useful and also it got expensive. I know 3 other friends of mine that dont have teachers and all seem to be having real good results. At times I really think I could gain knowledge from somones wisdom but other times I feel theres no need. How does someone know? When the student is ready the teacher will appear type deal?
This is going to be in a review coming up but...

"What's in it for me? - John Butler - starting 15:28: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfwVUggdyBE

You have to watch the questioning mind and how it's throwing you off. Heidegger's meditation books constantly have a master responding to questions, but the questioning is what needs to be seen over and over again. There's lots of dukkha there:
"The question itself is dissolved in the unquestionable presence. The situation is complete. Who is it that asks these questions? Of course the bit that's separate. The bit that isn't present."
This is what you are dealing with all the time. Ultimately you have to be practicing on your own and realize that talking to a teacher is only talking and there is only so much that can be done when people are feeding off their own questions, reactions and answers. At some point you have to do the work for long periods of time on your own. It's often better to read books and then ask a teacher to clarify something you don't understand. Once it's clarified then "off you go" and practice. Teachers are good for clearing up unclear parts of the text. They'll usually find their own way different from other teachers for unclarified text, because the original practioners with the Buddha are long since dead and there's no live video of how they taught.

Practices have been grafted on so Buddhism is difficult in that you have to investigate all the myriad tools and practice them long enough to master them. Teachers are only good for helping where books don't help. You have to live with your practice and that was always the case. Clinging, thoughts and narratives are always there interrupting presence. Even concentrating on something for a few seconds before being interrupted has some stress and resistance. That's why multi-tasking can be so irritating.

Learn from teachers to clear things up in abstract text and the rest is your investigation of your own phenomenology. Progress happens when you feel more and more satisfaction in life and need less external things to be happy.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/27/20 2:35 PM as a reply to Bill T.
Bill T:
Another note to @chris. I just came across your old meditation log. Thanks for sharing! Inspiring stuff.

Tried to find this, but to no avail. Link?

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/27/20 4:20 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:

 At some point you have to do the work for long periods of time on your own. It's often better to read books and then ask a teacher to clarify something you don't understand. Once it's clarified then "off you go"  and practice. 

This is _exactly_ right and true for pretty much all disciplines. Mediation, music, exercise, education...

When I was doing martial arts stuff, my teacher only corrected people's practice about once a week (so maybe 10 hours of self-practice) -- for a few reasons:
  • he wanted someone to figure out 90% of the movement themselves. That way, they developed their own self-learning abilities. He simply couldn't hold everyone's hand and walk them through every step...
  • and he also wanted us to start feeling how awkward it was to do the last 10% incorrectly. This is really important. Then when he would give a small correction, it felt like a HUGE improvement. Suddenly more leverage or more speed. It's counter-intuitive, but when you do things wrong for a while it's because you don't recognize what is right, but doing it wrong for a while "wakes up" that part of the body so that it is more able to recieve correction.
That's kinda abstract, so for meditation:
  • It's important to mostly work things out ourself, so that we develop our own mental facilities to see greed, aversion, and delusion with finer and finer sensitivity. No teacher can point to our mind and say "look there", we have to figure most of this out ourself. Consistent, non-heroic, daily practice is necessary. 
  • When you feel you are hitting some kind of wall -- usually in about two to four weeks, then check in with a teacher. (On retreats, this should be every day or two.) Hitting a wall or finding some new cutting edge is important. That's what creates the possibility of learning something new. If you slack off for a few weeks and then check in with the teacher, they won't be able to fix problems associated with laziness! emoticon
  • When you meet with the teacher or more experienced meditator, you have to expose your concerns and beliefs and problems. This isn't the time for trying to look good. It's easier to fake things, at least for a while, but don't do that. If you don't feel safe being honest, then you probably shouldn't be working with that teacher.
  • Be prepared for the teacher to not correct a method or an experience, but rather they will probably point out a conceptual or perceptual blindspot. Those usually make us feel dumb, and we will want to ignore it and focus on somthing else, but that's what we need to have pointed out to us. We feel dumb and then "off we go" back to practicing to work on that dumbness. It sucks, but that's the way it is.
  • If progress isn't happening, it's due to the teacher or your practice. There isn't a third option. Some people tend to blame others, and some tend to blame themselves -- be aware for this bias and strongly consider the opposite view. Sometimes it's time to admit we're slackers as students. emoticon Sometimes it's time to admit our teacher sucks. emoticon
That martial art teacher said two funny things about getting good: you have to work as hard as a horse... and you have to be really smart and just a little bit stupid. To keep practicing requires intelligence and being stupid enough not to give up. No one gives us an award for our mental health or insights. emoticonemoticon

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/27/20 4:27 PM as a reply to Brandon Dayton.
Brandon Dayton:

Tried to find this, but to no avail. Link?

http://awakenetwork.org/magazine/cmarti/70

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/27/20 4:52 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Richard Zen:

 At some point you have to do the work for long periods of time on your own. It's often better to read books and then ask a teacher to clarify something you don't understand. Once it's clarified then "off you go"  and practice. 

This is _exactly_ right and true for pretty much all disciplines. Mediation, music, exercise, education...

When I was doing martial arts stuff, my teacher only corrected people's practice about once a week (so maybe 10 hours of self-practice) -- for a few reasons:
  • he wanted someone to figure out 90% of the movement themselves. That way, they developed their own self-learning abilities. He simply couldn't hold everyone's hand and walk them through every step...
  • and he also wanted us to start feeling how awkward it was to do the last 10% incorrectly. This is really important. Then when he would give a small correction, it felt like a HUGE improvement. Suddenly more leverage or more speed. It's counter-intuitive, but when you do things wrong for a while it's because you don't recognize what is right, but doing it wrong for a while "wakes up" that part of the body so that it is more able to recieve correction.

Those are really smart teaching techniques!

Another way Rob Burbea looks at it is that we have to realise that words are stretched to explain phenonmenon that barely has anything in the dictionary for them. We pretty much HAVE TO learn on our own and FEEL and EXPERIENCE the changes happening in meditation.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/28/20 9:42 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Currently halfway through "The Inner Game of Tennis" and it has really clarified the role of teacher/instructor, as well as how to get the mind (Self 2) to learn via experimenting and 'feeling' instead of trying to follow technical instruction. 

Obviously it seems deeply dharmic through the lens of spirituality, but it's definitely a great book for serious meditators. Sounds like your martial arts teacher had a similar philosophy. emoticon 

RE: Starting Teaching
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1/27/20 9:55 PM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
As a musician, I believe that everything shargrol says about teaching and learning is completely correct. Strangely, almost no one understands this stuff.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/28/20 12:24 AM as a reply to Bill T.
Bill T:
Wow. Thanks all for your concern, and many suggestions! I'm humbled to be part of such a thoughtful community.

@richard Saints & Psycopaths looks like a great read, I'll be in on that for sure. I'm familiar with the Willoughby Britton research via interviews, but will dig in further. Also been through plenty of dukkha nana's myself so I'm fairly confident on spotting them at least.

This is also an eye-opener. It's better you know this now rather than later ;) 

From Illusion to Truth - Leonard Jacobson (45:40)  https://youtu.be/JFSSKtCYFkM
spatialAs a musician, I believe that everything shargrol says about teaching and learning is completely correct. Strangely, almost no one understands this stuff.
Intrinsic motivation is very counterintuitive. People are trained for external rewards.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/28/20 6:07 AM as a reply to Hibiscus Kid.
Hibiscus Kid:
Currently halfway through "The Inner Game of Tennis" and it has really clarifiied the role of teacher/instructor, as well as how to get the mind (Self 2) to learn via experimenting and 'feeling' instead of trying to follow technical instruction. 

Obviously it seems deeply dharmic through the lens of spirituality, but it's definitely a great book for serious meditators. Sounds like your martial arts teacher had a similar philosophy. emoticon 

Wow, I hadn't made that link, but yes, that is exactly right. emoticon

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/28/20 6:39 AM as a reply to shargrol.
My experience has been that a vast majority of people just want answers. That's it. And, of course, without having to work. They give up when the work part kicks in. This applies to everything. Small children are good at learning and I think it's because they have to work at it. At about the time we all head to school, at 5 or 6 years old, the aversion to work starts to kick in. This is weird, but I think it's true.

And, duh, the aversion to work is the reason people give up on meditation. Maybe even more so than most other endeavors.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/28/20 9:01 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
My experience has been that a vast majority of people just want answers. That's it. And, of course, without having to work. They give up when the work part kicks in. This applies to everything. Small children are good at learning and I think it's because they have to work at it. At about the time we all head to school, at 5 or 6 years old, the aversion to work starts to kick in. This is weird, but I think it's true.

And, duh, the aversion to work is the reason people give up on meditation. Maybe even more so than most other endeavors.
I read this and thought of the old phrase "buy them books send them to school and the eat them" 
I have a problem giving friends and family advice on there problems in life and get mad when they never follow direction. It's so funny. I was talking to a therapist last week about it and she said for the next two weeks to just listen. It's difficult but when I do it's so liberating. I also try to get all my friends into meditation and that doesn't seem to work either. Bahahaha 

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/29/20 2:43 PM as a reply to Dustin.
Meditating is like investing a small amount of money for a long, long time. The returns work the same way. The benefits of meditation, assuming a consistent practice, accrue in small increments at first but grow faster over time. It's a sort of compound interest for the mind.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/29/20 4:03 PM as a reply to Bill T.
Good discussion a lot of wisdom here!

About teaching meditation, what its so diferent to teaching other stuff?

If someone wants to paint, finds a teacher and He gives him some exercices, feedback, advice, sharing knowledge and if he is good he can teach a method and teach him how to observe.

I think the big problem is the idealitzation and the guru thing, we have this colective image about meditation teachers that we project to much on it. We didnt do this type of projection on school teacher or art/music teacher. We can idealize it a little bit for their knowlage and have some kind of admiration or respect but not the crazy stuff that sometimes happen with meditation teachers. 

I think we confuse teacher with savior. If you can write a line on it, and make clear that you are just a normal human being "LOL" everything will be fine haha

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/30/20 7:07 AM as a reply to Jordi.
Jordi:
Good discussion a lot of wisdom here!

About teaching meditation, what its so diferent to teaching other stuff?

If someone wants to paint, finds a teacher and He gives him some exercices, feedback, advice, sharing knowledge and if he is good he can teach a method and teach him how to observe.

I think the big problem is the idealitzation and the guru thing, we have this colective image about meditation teachers that we project to much on it. We didnt do this type of projection on school teacher or art/music teacher. We can idealize it a little bit for their knowlage and have some kind of admiration or respect but not the crazy stuff that sometimes happen with meditation teachers. 

I think we confuse teacher with savior. If you can write a line on it, and make clear that you are just a normal human being "LOL" everything will be fine haha
Thanks Jordi - this lines up with my thinking also. I guess the issues people are pointing to above are important because in meditation we're dealing directly with the human psyche. Unlike say, painting.

But yeah - I've taught many different subjects over 20 years - design, music tech. etc. I know it's a very different subject, but I'm confident many of the skills I've learnt cross over.

Like you say - as long as I repeatedly make it clear I'm just a regular dufus like everyone else, I can hopefully avoid many of the problems you mention.

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/30/20 8:42 AM as a reply to Jordi.
Jordi:
Good discussion a lot of wisdom here!

About teaching meditation, what its so diferent to teaching other stuff?

If someone wants to paint, finds a teacher and He gives him some exercices, feedback, advice, sharing knowledge and if he is good he can teach a method and teach him how to observe.

I think the big problem is the idealitzation and the guru thing, we have this colective image about meditation teachers that we project to much on it. We didnt do this type of projection on school teacher or art/music teacher. We can idealize it a little bit for their knowlage and have some kind of admiration or respect but not the crazy stuff that sometimes happen with meditation teachers. 

I think we confuse teacher with savior. If you can write a line on it, and make clear that you are just a normal human being "LOL" everything will be fine haha

IMHO, it depends on what the meditation teacher is going to teach.

Ex, if one wants to learn how to practice Mahasi Noting, even I, with my very limited experience can teach her the basics of this technique.

But imagine a student using noting and having a very quick progress. What if the student reaches a map territory that the teacher does not know, because he isn't there yet?

RE: Starting Teaching
Answer
1/30/20 9:33 AM as a reply to Vladimir Zetko.
Vladimir Zetko:
Jordi:
Good discussion a lot of wisdom here!

About teaching meditation, what its so diferent to teaching other stuff?

If someone wants to paint, finds a teacher and He gives him some exercices, feedback, advice, sharing knowledge and if he is good he can teach a method and teach him how to observe.

I think the big problem is the idealitzation and the guru thing, we have this colective image about meditation teachers that we project to much on it. We didnt do this type of projection on school teacher or art/music teacher. We can idealize it a little bit for their knowlage and have some kind of admiration or respect but not the crazy stuff that sometimes happen with meditation teachers. 

I think we confuse teacher with savior. If you can write a line on it, and make clear that you are just a normal human being "LOL" everything will be fine haha

IMHO, it depends on what the meditation teacher is going to teach.

Ex, if one wants to learn how to practice Mahasi Noting, even I, with my very limited experience can teach her the basics of this technique.

But imagine a student using noting and having a very quick progress. What if the student reaches a map territory that the teacher does not know, because he isn't there yet?
 Thanks Vladimir, thats exactly what i was thinking. I practice mahasi and sure do not want a teacher that has not done there fair share of going through cycles and attaining paths. My dad died of multiple sclerosis a few years back and I had a therapist who had never had a parent die and never dealt with a parent who had a long term illness. I was given advice but it wasn't that good. I had to find a friend who had been through that to walk me through the grieving process. I use to see a teacher that had 4th path had been through some dark nights, studied with good teachers and spent a lot of time trying to master different techniques on retreat, she still had a teacher and  was still working on herself. Thats what I think I would be looking for.

RE: Starting Teaching
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1/30/20 9:36 AM as a reply to Vladimir Zetko.
Vladimir Zetko:

But imagine a student using noting and having a very quick progress. What if the student reaches a map territory that the teacher does not know, because he isn't there yet?


Think it was Shinzen Young or Kenneth Folk who said
"this is fine, as long as you have a teacher on speed-dial who has dealt with all these territories and can help."

RE: Starting Teaching
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1/30/20 9:38 AM as a reply to Vladimir Zetko.
Vladimir Zetko:
Jordi:
Good discussion a lot of wisdom here!

About teaching meditation, what its so diferent to teaching other stuff?

If someone wants to paint, finds a teacher and He gives him some exercices, feedback, advice, sharing knowledge and if he is good he can teach a method and teach him how to observe.

I think the big problem is the idealitzation and the guru thing, we have this colective image about meditation teachers that we project to much on it. We didnt do this type of projection on school teacher or art/music teacher. We can idealize it a little bit for their knowlage and have some kind of admiration or respect but not the crazy stuff that sometimes happen with meditation teachers. 

I think we confuse teacher with savior. If you can write a line on it, and make clear that you are just a normal human being "LOL" everything will be fine haha

IMHO, it depends on what the meditation teacher is going to teach.

Ex, if one wants to learn how to practice Mahasi Noting, even I, with my very limited experience can teach her the basics of this technique.

But imagine a student using noting and having a very quick progress. What if the student reaches a map territory that the teacher does not know, because he isn't there yet?

Easy, he needs to find another teacher! 

As you say, probably anyone in this forum can teach the basics of meditation to someone how never meditate before.

I think is important to separeate teaching meditation to lead someone to stream entry.

Anyways usually people dont realize all the work, time and balence that is needed to get results on meditation. But for me meditation is like other skill.

If I want to paint like the old masters ( equivalent of stream entry or mastering the jhanas ) requires a lot of time, knowleage and practice. I need to learn about shapes, light, color, human anatomy, I need to observe with precision and have good concentration skills. Also I need to develop a method and a workflow that help me to achive the results Im looking for. 

There is a lot of frustration, ups and downs and keep trying and keep doing. People dont see the work that is behind and just say you have a natural gift or you are talented!

The same happens in meditation, they are not aware of the work and hours you need to put to get some results.

If someone wants to paint and have fun can get a lots of benefits for it and there are pleanty of teachers and styles that you can learn.

If you really want to master painting and drawing and paint like the old masters not everyone has this knowleage and you really need to find someone able to take the time to share and guide you. 

RE: Starting Teaching
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1/31/20 5:32 PM as a reply to Jordi.
Ingram thinks one should not teach this until at least attaining the 2nd Path. He mentions some traditions allowing those who attained Arising and Passing Away to teach. Others at Stream Entry level. He thinks 2nd Path is where teaching this stuff is ok. I'm confident in Ingrams suggestion. 
I think he talked about this in the Imperfect Buddha Podcast. 

At AP one is like a happy cow boy shooting guns into air and shouting yippee-ki-yay. Meditation is just THE best thing in the whole wide world and everyone should do it. Ah oh I am such a mighty meditator look at me Mum I can do it even without hands emoticon just joking emoticon 

At 1st Path one feels like a total humble beginner. One knows some stuff but feels that which one knows is soooo tiny but big (read significant very much so) at the same time and yet still humbling tiny. 
At least one in 1st Path could give a helping advice to folks to plow through the Dark Night and then through Equanimity which could result in Fruition. 
on the other hand the AP person wouldn't have a clue how to navigate through Dark Night/Equanimity towards Fruition. Actually leading someone into Dark Night (which will come eventually) might cause some troublesome social development. 

I remember back in 2011 when I dropped into Dark Night (Disolution) from my (back then) stable super sonic Shamata practice (calm abiding with strong concentration)! I didn't even know what hit me! I panicked! Thankfully one Zen friend linked me to Ingrams book here (I don't think he had a printed version back then) so I read on it. I was so pissed off at those who thought me Shamata and never mentioning this a Dark Night maybe happening. This caused some unpleasant social development. 

I would suggest holding off and "doing the time" yourself first. Resolve to get to Stream Entry. Put in time, effort and lots of acceptance (espeacially helpful in Dark Night). Also making sure that your practice time is almost 100% efficient meaning not getting lost in the objects. Noting Aloud as thought by Kenneth Folk is VERY good at keeping the unbroken stream of noting. I call it The Plow (to plow with through the stages of insight). My energy and resolve are the tractor and Noting Aloud is the plow. 
Acceptance is a word I've missed so many time in Ingrams book but during my work with Kenneth Folk (via Skype) somehow that word from Ingrams writing kept shouting inside my head. So I used it together with noting aloud to keep in the reality mode (noticing continuously all those sensations arising into awareness) and letting the dark stuff wash over me as it came up pouring over me like crazy. It helped. A lot. In my case that is. 

btw, if I remember correctly Ingram does mention in his book about the tendency of those in AP to start teaching. He did write an interesting paragraph on this subject. I think it might be under AP in the book. 

Much more better (I like how this sounds emoticon Much more better) is to use this tendency/passion/desire/drive/feeling and observe it via your practice. Keep noting as it is. Use it as your next meditation subject. Why not? It could lead to something unexpected. 

RE: Starting Teaching
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2/1/20 7:08 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Thanks Che. I think this is good advice for anyone looking to go deeper with students, lead retreats etc.

I'm not there yet.

Just added a note to my first post - which was in hindsight written in haste, and easy to misinterpret. For context, I'm currently looking into MBSR teacher-training and other 'shallows' stuff. Not looking to go and set up my own Ashram with "Behold, Bill, the Enlightened Master" carved in gold over my head.

Thanks for your understanding!

RE: Starting Teaching
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2/1/20 9:55 AM as a reply to Bill T.
Making that part clear in the OP would have been helpful. I, for one, was a bit worried about your intention. Happy to hear it's grounded and sane.

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RE: Starting Teaching
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2/1/20 11:15 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks Chris! emoticon