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Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"

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Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Niclas 1/26/20 7:19 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Sleeping Buddha Syndrome 1/26/20 8:24 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Lewis James 1/26/20 8:34 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Nick O 1/26/20 8:54 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Bardo 1/26/20 11:32 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Mista Tibbs 1/26/20 9:22 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/27/20 1:54 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Mista Tibbs 1/28/20 5:43 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/28/20 4:24 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/28/20 11:20 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/29/20 2:30 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 10:47 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Siavash 1/30/20 3:08 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 4:48 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Siavash 1/30/20 4:53 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 5:12 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Siavash 1/30/20 5:16 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 5:22 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Siavash 1/30/20 5:26 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 7:10 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Siavash 1/30/20 7:16 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/31/20 6:35 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/31/20 6:36 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/31/20 7:29 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Siavash 1/31/20 10:58 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/31/20 11:17 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Siavash 1/31/20 11:23 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Siavash 1/31/20 12:13 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/30/20 5:13 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 5:16 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 5:23 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Che Guebuddha 1/31/20 5:56 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 2/1/20 9:58 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/30/20 5:33 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 5:09 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/30/20 5:06 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 6:52 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/31/20 6:44 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 2/3/20 10:36 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 2/3/20 4:32 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 2/4/20 7:02 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 2/4/20 8:01 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 2/10/20 8:03 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/11/20 5:21 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/11/20 5:27 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" T 2/11/20 5:56 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 2/11/20 6:51 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" shargrol 2/11/20 8:21 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" T 2/11/20 1:14 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/11/20 1:46 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" shargrol 2/11/20 2:24 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 2/11/20 6:50 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Nick O 1/29/20 7:13 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/29/20 7:40 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Nick O 1/29/20 10:00 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/29/20 10:10 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/29/20 10:53 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/30/20 5:07 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 5:15 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/30/20 5:19 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/29/20 2:34 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/29/20 3:28 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/30/20 7:52 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/30/20 8:39 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/30/20 9:06 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/30/20 9:57 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 4:30 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/30/20 4:40 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/30/20 4:49 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" T 1/31/20 6:42 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/31/20 7:46 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" T 1/31/20 6:46 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/31/20 11:52 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/11/20 1:23 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" T 2/11/20 7:23 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/12/20 3:49 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 10:14 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/30/20 10:43 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Nick O 1/27/20 3:58 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Chris Marti 1/26/20 12:15 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Ward Law 1/26/20 12:15 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Richard Zen 1/26/20 12:57 PM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/27/20 1:47 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" T 1/27/20 6:49 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/28/20 12:35 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" terry 1/28/20 12:54 AM
RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer" Jordi 1/29/20 3:46 PM
Greetings everyone!

I'm currently exploring the topic "No-self" and "No doer". I understand that there is no self /ego-self,  I just need to 'see it', and experience it. I have a very hard time understanding that there is no 'doer'. I understand that we are not in control of what our body feels, what we like and dislike,  and what we think.  I understand that everything happens spontenious, without our control and that our consiousness already have a "prefered" outcome.

Let say that a sudden urge to play violin arises, but I resist and continue on studying. Is this not a choice? Have I chosen a 'role' as a student, and following some "rules" that "I" decided in order to be a good student?

What if I have a lot of 'unplessent thoughts' about killing someone, and after some time decide to get professional mental help?

What about not listening to cravings?

What about when you are driving a car, and decide not to hit the dog or crash on purpose?

Is your first spontanious thought / feeling your "true" feeling that you should follow? When you have a sudden urge to walk, saying something, or doing something, as long as it is not from my ego?

As you probialy can see I'm very confused and I will love to hear your thoughts and insigts on this topic

Thanks everyone for reading this.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/26/20 8:24 AM as a reply to Niclas.
Two words of wisdom for you. From a book by Sayadaw U Pandita: pick the low hanging fruit first. From an old Psychiatrist of mine, it's a marathon, not a Sprint.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/26/20 8:34 AM as a reply to Niclas.
It's a tricky topic and can be misunderstood very easily, this is why so many traditions kept these teachings 'hidden' - but now we have good sources of information it's a little easier to comprehend.

No perceived 'thing' is independent in and of itself - it exists because it relates to other perceived 'things'. This is true of the outside world of material objects, but also the inner world of verbal thoughts, feelings, emotions, mental images and so on.

What there really is arising in experience is a bunch of inter-related processes that appear to be making decisions. Would you have had the choice to go and play violin, if someone hadn't given you the opportunity to learn in the past?

Another way of framing the initial insights into not-self are more like 'many-self', in that you start seeing that all these things you once called 'I', a single thing, are actually many impersonal processes, in a sense we can have many selves that compete to get attention and get their needs met.

Using vipassana we can dissolve or end these 'selves' from arising for a period of time, which can lead to psychological insights as well as higher meditation insights.

I spent a long time stuck in the not-self hole trying to imagine that I didn't exist or that everything was an illusion. It wasn't fruitful (though some paths do go that way, I'm not sure how well they're compatible with a worldly life). It's true that ultimately none of these 'self' processes can ultimately be called a real self, there is a fundamental emptiness to them. That said, for now, they're still arising and here we are talking, undeniably. No need to fall into that trap - just notice what's happening in the mind.

Edit: A corollary of this is the question of free will. The question just doesn't make sense under the Buddhist model. There isn't a fundamental self which can make a decision - but that doesn't mean there isn't choice. All these impersonal processes may compete but ultimately the decision comes from which one catches your attention the most. So learning how to resist that catching - grasping - helps to make much better decisions.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/26/20 8:54 AM as a reply to Niclas.
What about when you are driving a car, and decide not to hit the dog or crash on purpose?

What about all the little choices and adjustments that happen as you are driving your car that you are not aware of? Certainly you cannot be aware of every small adjustment of the wheel to keep yourself within the lanes or braking to adjust speed, especially while attention may be on thoughts of playing the violin or studying. The illusion of choice maker is strong when attention is on choice making but one may not consider all the choices that are made automatically outside of attention.

Another funny way to look at it: Who chooses to move attention from thoughts about dinner plans to other thoughts? Or to present moment mindful driving to avoid hitting the dog running down the street? Even more elusive than the doer, thinker or choice maker is the "attention shifter". Good luck finding that guy.

It does little good to conceptualize this stuff but it makes for a great mindfulness practice; Look for and digest the feelings associated with the doer, thinker, choice maker, etc. both on and off cushion. 



RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/26/20 11:32 AM as a reply to Nick O.
Nick O - I like this. By these measures, if one were to really make a decision about something, it would take us eaons to trawl through the billions of interconnected phenomena that comprises of that decision. In short, we just make poorly educated guesses about the things we we think we're in control of.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/26/20 12:15 PM as a reply to Niclas.
As you probialy can see I'm very confused and I will love to hear your thoughts and insigts on this topic

Yes, this is confusing.

It takes a long time and a lot of meditation and study to see what's actually happening - assuming we can ever truly do that. But don't expect a neat, simple answer. There aren't any. These are both gray areas of human existence and there are no final answers. It's more like, "What shade of gray am I seeing right now?"

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/26/20 12:15 PM as a reply to Niclas.
In your what-if examples, there is an implicit separation between whatever is generating the default behavior (machinery) and someone who can decide to override it. But the decision to override arrives seemingly out of nowhere, and that's the clue that the decider is an illusion. The conscious subject thinks it is not part of the machinery and thus takes credit or blame for the actions of the whole.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/26/20 12:57 PM as a reply to Niclas.
1. 1st is the part of your mind that is seeking rewards is also seeking spiritual rewards and is always dissatisfied (bored or stressed). You are always going to be dealing with that. You have to feed it well with lots of Jhana practices and watching the pain of clinging (day-dreaming about wishes), and realize that it's better to let go. A lot of our wishes are either boring, because they are too easy to attain, or stressful, because they are too hard to attain. The brain becomes disenchanted because the pain seems pointless, so actively wishing as a habit reduces naturally. Getting pleasure in Jhanas as a replacement pleasure is a huge part of the practice and should not be neglected. It's a good form of pleasure.

2. The attention span is always moving it's spotlight of attention. Each move of the attention span is an intention. Those intentions have some goal of acheiving some pleasure or to satisfy a wish. The attention to pay attention. The brain knows what it's doing but gets lost in emotional investments in wishing and mental movies. When you learn to enjoy jhanas and can develop strong equanimity, you'll be in the present moment more often. This just becomes more of the norm as you get better at vipassana and disenchantment naturally increases. It increases not by force but by seeing unnecessary pain and dropping it.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/26/20 9:22 PM as a reply to Nick O.
Nick O:
What about when you are driving a car, and decide not to hit the dog or crash on purpose?

What about all the little choices and adjustments that happen as you are driving your car that you are not aware of? Certainly you cannot be aware of every small adjustment of the wheel to keep yourself within the lanes or braking to adjust speed, especially while attention may be on thoughts of playing the violin or studying. The illusion of choice maker is strong when attention is on choice making but one may not consider all the choices that are made automatically outside of attention.

Another funny way to look at it: Who chooses to move attention from thoughts about dinner plans to other thoughts? Or to present moment mindful driving to avoid hitting the dog running down the street? Even more elusive than the doer, thinker or choice maker is the "attention shifter". Good luck finding that guy.

It does little good to conceptualize this stuff but it makes for a great mindfulness practice; Look for and digest the feelings associated with the doer, thinker, choice maker, etc. both on and off cushion. 



Well, my friend, if you are driving then your thoughts should be on the wheel adjustment. Your thoughts should be on the pressure on the gas. Your thoughts should be concerned with your speed and staying in the lanes. You should attempt to be aware of all these. If our chaperone was thinking about playing the violin while driving... I really wouldn't want to be in that car! Safer to just walk it!

This is not a problem unless you are thinking 24/7 nonstop. That is a symptom of being stuck in the mind. Who chooses to move attention from thoughts about dinner plans to other thoughts? Whoever speaks first of course! Do you talk while you eat? Do you have blown out conversations during sex? The only time it is acceptable to not be with this "present moment mindful" attitude is when your eyes are closed, if that's what you want. You can think while in the present moment and make choices. Or you can not think at all and just let everything be and be with everything as it is and unfolds. You can also think about the manifold choices that can be while you don't make them as life happens and you can suffer that if you wish emoticon Who chooses to move attention from wondering thoughts to present moment mindfulness? You obviously. If not you then who? Who is living inside your body making decisions for you?! Don't tell this one, tell a therapist and let them diagnose you. Your thought process is not life. You are life. Life is more than an expression of feeling. Life is not a prospect. Life is not an endeavor.
This is life. Give life your attention, not your thought process. You should have the on & off switch for this faculty, if you do not... that can and should certainly be worked on.

Niclas, brother, the "Self" is just an idea. Are ideas real? Absolutely! Or love isn't real and hate isn't real... Needless to say you can't grab them, but you can record & study their chemical signatures. To understand that another life is an independent bundle of neurons with separate knowledge and to have the capacity to be aware of this enough to give our perspective context and meaning in order to convey our experience of life is an idea. Ideas are real, but you can't hold the theory of mind... but you can play catch with a brain! Ideas are real but only as real as you allow them to be within your experience.

Ideas can be built up, refined, and conditioned. Like this, a "self" can manifest from any thing you attach yourself to. You can create a "self" from your memory banks or out of a snapshot of chemistry or from a series of synapses. and likewise, you can give concreteness to the idea of "no-self". It's just an idea. But please keep that within your meditation. There is nothing wrong with the idea of self. You need a one to have a healthy perspective on life. You can have a self. It is your self. It is not you, it is yours. Another beauty in your possession. Make it as beautiful a possible!

The ego is also just another idea, nothing wrong with it. The ego is a set of defenses. It's just an idea of what is "good" which is entirely subjective. If you manage to convince your mind that running into traffic is good, then your ego will follow because the ego has its foundation in the mind. The mind can only operate under the programming it has currently, what you have graced it with. It goes in loops because it cannot create new information so it must reuse memory. Memory has its foundations in your experience of life. So a "cure" would be to constantly incorporate a wider and more expansive experience of life. Or you get stuck in your mind, looping. This "cure" is never fully administered so even at 40, 70, 90... like working with compassion, it is a process with no completion, and that's great! emoticon Nothing wrong with ego, it has qualities. Maybe adverse qualities, so it must be worked with, but not gotten rid of! emoticon pobrecito ego... nobody likes him...
About cravings, buddy, that's just a matter of self-discipline.

If there is no doer in your experience then who started this thread?
Truth doesn't have to be subtle, it's like balls in your face sometimes.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/27/20 1:47 AM as a reply to Niclas.
Niclas:
Greetings everyone!

I'm currently exploring the topic "No-self" and "No doer". I understand that there is no self /ego-self,  I just need to 'see it', and experience it. I have a very hard time understanding that there is no 'doer'. I understand that we are not in control of what our body feels, what we like and dislike,  and what we think.  I understand that everything happens spontenious, without our control and that our consiousness already have a "prefered" outcome.

Let say that a sudden urge to play violin arises, but I resist and continue on studying. Is this not a choice? Have I chosen a 'role' as a student, and following some "rules" that "I" decided in order to be a good student?

What if I have a lot of 'unplessent thoughts' about killing someone, and after some time decide to get professional mental help?

What about not listening to cravings?

What about when you are driving a car, and decide not to hit the dog or crash on purpose?

Is your first spontanious thought / feeling your "true" feeling that you should follow? When you have a sudden urge to walk, saying something, or doing something, as long as it is not from my ego?

As you probialy can see I'm very confused and I will love to hear your thoughts and insigts on this topic

Thanks everyone for reading this.


aloha niclas,

   I recently quoted some of the diamond sutra, which in part says this:

 I am, O Lord, the one whom the Tathagata, the Arhat, the Fully Enlightened One has pointed out as the foremost of those who dwell in Peace. I am, O Lord, an Arhat free from greed. And yet, O Lord, it does not occur to me, 'an Arhat am I and free from greed'. If, O Lord, it could occur to me that I have attained Arhatship, then the Tathagata would not have declared of me that 'Subhuti, this son of good family, who is the foremost of those who dwell in Peace, does not dwell anywhere; that is why he is called "a dweller in Peace, a dweller in Peace"'.

  The knower only knows and does not think, act or will. Thinking, acting and willing simply happen, like wind and clouds, like ocean tides. All things dependently arise. And dependently pass away.

 The identity of the individual - the so-called ego, self, personality or liver-of-life - can only be known in the context of general social life. Our identities depend on which groups we identify with, race, sex, astrological sign, memberships, occupation and so forth, man as the sum of his social roles. We are none of these superficialities, each of us being in actuality the whole Great Pearl. The Knower.

   The knower is not identified with any partial aspect of reality. There is no individual person, no novice, no stream-enterer, no buddha, only all these reflections of the whole. The same moon in every dewdrop.

   Pick any sentient being and look in their eyes: the knower. "This lone brightness here listening to the dharma" (rinzai). Every knower, every sentient being, is The Knower.

terry
  



from "the marriage of heaven and hell," william blake:



A MEMORABLE FANCY


As I was walking among the fires of Hell, delighted with the enjoyments of Genius, which to Angels look like torment and insanity, I collected some of their proverbs, thinking that as the sayings used in a nation mark its character, so the proverbs of Hell show the nature of infernal wisdom better than any description of buildings or garments.

When I came home, on the abyss of the five senses, where a flat-sided steep frowns over the present world, I saw a mighty Devil folded in black clouds hovering on the sides of the rock; with corroding fires he wrote the following sentence now perceived by the minds of men, and read by them on earth:—

“How do you know but every bird
that cuts the airy way
Is an immense world of delight,
closed by your senses five?”

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/27/20 1:54 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:
Nick O:
What about when you are driving a car, and decide not to hit the dog or crash on purpose?

What about all the little choices and adjustments that happen as you are driving your car that you are not aware of? Certainly you cannot be aware of every small adjustment of the wheel to keep yourself within the lanes or braking to adjust speed, especially while attention may be on thoughts of playing the violin or studying. The illusion of choice maker is strong when attention is on choice making but one may not consider all the choices that are made automatically outside of attention.

Another funny way to look at it: Who chooses to move attention from thoughts about dinner plans to other thoughts? Or to present moment mindful driving to avoid hitting the dog running down the street? Even more elusive than the doer, thinker or choice maker is the "attention shifter". Good luck finding that guy.

It does little good to conceptualize this stuff but it makes for a great mindfulness practice; Look for and digest the feelings associated with the doer, thinker, choice maker, etc. both on and off cushion. 



Well, my friend, if you are driving then your thoughts should be on the wheel adjustment. Your thoughts should be on the pressure on the gas. Your thoughts should be concerned with your speed and staying in the lanes. You should attempt to be aware of all these. If our chaperone was thinking about playing the violin while driving... I really wouldn't want to be in that car! Safer to just walk it!


   Nonsense. Anyone who knows how to drive drives better when not thinking about making all those little adjustments than they do when they are thinking about them. And this truth applies to everything we "do."

   Consider the athlete who is "automatic" or "unconscious" and playing perfectly. Swish.

t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/27/20 3:58 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs

Well, my friend, if you are driving then your thoughts should be on the wheel adjustment. Your thoughts should be on the pressure on the gas. Your thoughts should be concerned with your speed and staying in the lanes. You should attempt to be aware of all these. If our chaperone was thinking about playing the violin while driving... I really wouldn't want to be in that car! Safer to just walk it!


You're right. Thanks for the chat, Dad! I can only aspire to one day having your level of mindfulness required to be aware of my choice involved in every arising thought, heartbeat or release of digestive enzyme...Or at the very least be a more mindful driver! emoticon  

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/27/20 6:49 AM as a reply to Niclas.
To Terry's point, one functions with less friction of life if doing it "without thinking." I think it is inaccurate to consider that actually not thinking in the sense of non-functioning brain, but to consider it in the sense he references with sport. Those things are all done through some practice in which we build the physical skill set and then "let go" and just be with the action, though our brain is still very much processing quietly. Just flow and, as he says, "swish."

The narrative mind will take credit for all of this after the fact and attribute a "great athlete" or some kind of label (or many) and create an ego. A new one, if you just started playing basketball, in this example. However - where did the non-basketball player go? Are they dead? Are you suddenly no longer that person?

Was that person ever really there, or was that just what your narrative mind told you about the physical process taking place before learning basketball?

Something I found helpful was to work with Chandrakirti's sevenfold reasoning; applying it to anything and everything that has a label - ultimately to oneself. I first applied it to a car since it is so similar to a chariot, yet modern. Keep working through it until it clicks; it happens to be the truth and it will dawn eventually. 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sevenfold_reasoning_of_the_chariot


RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/28/20 12:35 AM as a reply to T.
T:
To Terry's point, one functions with less friction of life if doing it "without thinking." I think it is inaccurate to consider that actually not thinking in the sense of non-functioning brain, but to consider it in the sense he references with sport. Those things are all done through some practice in which we build the physical skill set and then "let go" and just be with the action, though our brain is still very much processing quietly. Just flow and, as he says, "swish."

The narrative mind will take credit for all of this after the fact and attribute a "great athlete" or some kind of label (or many) and create an ego. A new one, if you just started playing basketball, in this example. However - where did the non-basketball player go? Are they dead? Are you suddenly no longer that person?

Was that person ever really there, or was that just what your narrative mind told you about the physical process taking place before learning basketball?

Something I found helpful was to work with Chandrakirti's sevenfold reasoning; applying it to anything and everything that has a label - ultimately to oneself. I first applied it to a car since it is so similar to a chariot, yet modern. Keep working through it until it clicks; it happens to be the truth and it will dawn eventually. 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sevenfold_reasoning_of_the_chariot



   And the person - any person - by being designated stops flowing, is frozen in time, in the past in fact. If you think you know someone, at best you know who they were. The better you "know" someone, the less you allow them to be. People are often shackled by what they are expected to be, or contained by the unrecognizability of the unexpected.

   This reverts to the original point: freedom is being free of identifying as a doer.

little t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/28/20 12:54 AM as a reply to terry.
tao te ching, trans john worldpeace:





 

Heaven and earth are indifferent. 
All creatures are considered straw dogs; 
not distinguished, not judged.

The sage is indifferent. 
All people are one; 
not distinguished, not judged.

Infinity is like a bellows, 
empty yet encompassing the potential 
of all things.

In time all potentials manifest.

Words are straw in the wind. 
The more one talks, the less one says.

Keep focused on Infinity. 
Remain centered in the oneness of 
all things.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/28/20 5:43 PM as a reply to terry.
terr:
Well, my friend, if you are driving then your thoughts should be on the wheel adjustment. Your thoughts should be on the pressure on the gas. Your thoughts should be concerned with your speed and staying in the lanes. You should attempt to be aware of all these. If our chaperone was thinking about playing the violin while driving... I really wouldn't want to be in that car! Safer to just walk it!


   Nonsense. Anyone who knows how to drive drives better when not thinking about making all those little adjustments than they do when they are thinking about them. And this truth applies to everything we "do."

   Consider the athlete who is "automatic" or "unconscious" and playing perfectly. Swish.

t

Nonsense? Lemme tell you a story... I bought my first car three years ago, a Toyota Celica GT. I had no license and zero prior experience behind the wheel so I waited until 2 am to test drive it around my neighborhood. I considered the wheel adjustment, my grip, the pressure on the pedals, the necessary speed over bumps, around turns, and specific parts of the road ahead of me... it was so relaxing. Since I had already familiarized myself with the rules of the road at least, I decided to drive out of the neighborhood and to a mountain view eight miles away. The streets were nearly empty, barren, perfect. The last two miles, however, were over a twisting and rising mountain road. Driving is simple when focus is on driving and not doing the laundry emoticon There I sat on the roof of my car looking over the hills. The atmosphere was really nice. Night is my favorite time to be out! I thought about it and decided to drive completely through the rest of the winding and escalating mountain pass to reach the driftwood shore on malibu 16 miles away. And so I did, and had my first campfire on the beach. I stayed there all night... and when the sun came out, so too did all the people! I had to drive back the 24 miles among all the disorder of other cars. But my attention was on the wheel, the pedals, the speed, the lanes, the road, and it was such a calming drive. I went for my license after this joyride. This happened shortly afterwards... I found myself in a few illegal street races after sunset. You know the classic moment when someone pulls up next to you and revs their engine? Like that, the cars adjacent and behind also start revving theirs! I only ever lost twice and to the same driver in a tricked out red beast of a truck that roared as if its engine had been stripped from a train! So I had a few experiences, had my fun, and stopped emoticon I'm a very care-full driver, still eagerly waiting on my first accident. That will be a great lesson!!! 
I remember chatting with my cousin who told me she had paid 500$ for driving lessons... WOW!
Personal experience is a good teacher with no charge! How you think about something is how you think about it.
A particular thing might breed anxiety, but maybe confidence in someone else. That is a personal truth.

We can behave "unconsciously" if we wish. That's a decision and there's nothing wrong with that. We can also behave consciously. That's also a decision and nothing wrong with that. There's no one-and-only correct way to approach life. In the same manner, this body is also just another vehicle we can handle. We don't suffocate if we forget to breathe, do we? Breathing just happens :-)  We don't have to breathe consciously but it'd be really nice if we tried to.

Unconscious? I think you mean sub-conscious. Habituation fixes details into our sub-conscious. Information becomes ingrained like a programming of the mind. Natural talent is a real phenomenon we can gloss over. Consider all the practice the athlete must have put in before those actions became second nature. That swish is a product of meticulous hard work, not daydreaming. What do you think a basketball player is thinking about in the middle of a game? My guess would be the game itself in each moment. The brain will calculate depth perception and the heart will carry oxygen of their own accord so the player can strategize. Sometimes it truly is better to not act so visceral.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/28/20 4:24 PM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
This is what a long term meditation practice is all about - how does our experience really work? What is every moment of our existence really like? How is our reality constructed by the interplay of the forces and influences around and about us? Human beings are a complicated, confusing and chaotic combination of intention, habit, conscious and pre-conscious processes. Some of those processes are obvious and visible to us, some aren't, and some are in between, discoverable if we pay close enough attention with a high enough observational frequency, combined with the leads and lags in perception between the underlying subconscious mind and the logical, serial processing of the conscious mind.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/28/20 11:20 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
This is what a long term meditation practice is all about - how does our experience really work? What is every moment of our existence really like? How is our reality constructed by the interplay of the forces and influences around and about us? Human beings are a complicated, confusing and chaotic combination of intention, habit, conscious and pre-conscious processes. Some of those processes are obvious and visible to us, some aren't, and some are in between, discoverable if we pay close enough attention with a high enough observational frequency, combined with the leads and lags in perception between the underlying subconscious mind and the logical, serial processing of the conscious mind.
aloha chris,

   nonsense... (wink)...

   As nick said, being conscious of every digestive enzyme release is a level of "mindfulness"  which would overwhelm anyone. We are designed to focus on what is "important," and see everything else peripherally at best. I've never seen the point of noting various mental and physical activities; why not study medicine and learn from experts. If you care.

   If you have an itch, scratch it and use as little consciousness as possible in the process. Consciousness of itself is a pathological condition, resolved by "enlightenment," nirvana, extinction.

   One might consider that the bodhisattva, the highest ideal of buddhism, deliberately puts off nirvana until all beings are free. Consider the very desirability of enlightenment. Perhaps it is not our best option, if option it is.

   Perhaps practice, and service, are the Way. The Path Is The Goal.


terry





to te ching, trans feng



forty-seven


Without going outside, you may know the whole world. 
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven. 
The farther you go, the less you know.

Thus the sage knows without traveling; 
He sees without looking; 
He works without doing.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 7:13 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yes and your reply is a statement about what occurs phenomenologically when one practices which is a different conversation from how one should practice correctly which is a different conversation from how one should drive or how one should choose to fire off a neuron or whether we have the agency of choice in any of these matters..,

And this, for some reason brings the following to mind; Maybe it's the current mental weather, but I'm feeling the whole unification of mind thing in both pursuit and destination as not worth the trouble. Better to just kick back, relax and let attention shift to a thought about laundry while I should be enjoying the taste of my coffee, damnit.

What I do know for sure: I don't perform very well when I'm thinking about the music that I'm playing.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 7:40 AM as a reply to Nick O.
I get the feeling that there are at last two different discussions going on at the same time. Some posts or parts of posts are discussing what to focus on when one does something (and there are both descriptive and normative perspectives on that), which still assumes that there is a doer. Other posts or parts of posts are discussing whether there is a doer or if things are just happening on their own - and even that is discussed from both a descriptive and a normative point of view, which I find very confusing. The whole discussion seems to be a total mix of paradigms. I have a feeling that this is exactly the sort of thing that Daniel talks about in that recent Guru Viking interview with regard to the different bands that are more of an ecology than a hierarchy in Daniel's version of Ken Wilber's early model - that the confusion comes from mixing paradigms and thus trying to adress questions from one band within the framework of another band. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 10:00 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I get the feeling that there are at last two different discussions going on at the same time. 
Yup, I was riffing on that somewhat facetiously... ;) 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 10:10 AM as a reply to Nick O.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but I only saw you refer to descriptive vs normative, not the other dimension that I mentioned? 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 10:53 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I get the feeling that there are at last two different discussions going on at the same time. Some posts or parts of posts are discussing what to focus on when one does something (and there are both descriptive and normative perspectives on that), which still assumes that there is a doer. Other posts or parts of posts are discussing whether there is a doer or if things are just happening on their own - and even that is discussed from both a descriptive and a normative point of view, which I find very confusing. The whole discussion seems to be a total mix of paradigms. I have a feeling that this is exactly the sort of thing that Daniel talks about in that recent Guru Viking interview with regard to the different bands that are more of an ecology than a hierarchy in Daniel's version of Ken Wilber's early model - that the confusion comes from mixing paradigms and thus trying to adress questions from one band within the framework of another band. 


 this might be one of the rare occasions when it isn't me going off topic...

t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 2:30 PM as a reply to terry.
Hiya, terry.

I've never seen the point of noting various mental and physical activities; why not study medicine and learn from experts. If you care.

If you want to learn more I suggest you explore the practice of vipassana. That's what I've been doing for many years and it's been quite revealing and of many things. It's the primary practice of most of DhO's participants. It works - which is the basis of practical dharma. It's not likely to be what you did terry, but that doesn't make it wrong, or bad, or a waste of time. There's more than one road to the top of the mountain.

emoticon

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 2:34 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Some posts or parts of posts are discussing what to focus on when one does something (and there are both descriptive and normative perspectives on that), which still assumes that there is a doer. Other posts or parts of posts are discussing whether there is a doer or if things are just happening on their own - and even that is discussed from both a descriptive and a normative point of view, which I find very confusing. 

Please consider that the former can reveal the latter. If we investigate appropriately, that is.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 3:28 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Some posts or parts of posts are discussing what to focus on when one does something (and there are both descriptive and normative perspectives on that), which still assumes that there is a doer. Other posts or parts of posts are discussing whether there is a doer or if things are just happening on their own - and even that is discussed from both a descriptive and a normative point of view, which I find very confusing. 

Please consider that the former can reveal the latter. If we investigate appropriately, that is.
Sure. I don't doubt that at all. It is when it gets all mixed in a discussion that at least I find that it at least sometimes leads to some rather confused implications. It makes things seem like more of a paradox than it actually is, and it makes it look like people disagree about something when they are really talking about different "bands" or "modes".

As for your post, I interpreted it as a bridge between the different modes. I thought you were saying exactly that, that investigating the former reveals the latter. I thought that was very clear between the lines. 

I think that saying it explicitly like you did now may be very helpful. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/29/20 3:46 PM as a reply to Niclas.
Hi Niclas!

To be or not to be, that's the question! emoticonemoticon

Imagine self as a puzzle. A puzzle is made of little parts that conect one to another. All this little parts on their own have no sense, they just have a fragment of the whole image but they are needed to create the full image that we see, the SELF.

Every one has his own puzzle and the pieces of the puzzle are made of expirences, cultural and personal belief, temperament, defense mechanism, values, moral code and a lot of other stuff.

When they are activated from internal or external events, they activate the energy / pattern they have and relase the energy via emotions, sensations or thoughts. Also some pieces of the puzzle dont like each other and have diferent opinions, or one have more "power/authority" than the others It’s something like that...^^u Its a total mess!!! emoticonemoticon

At the end is like a paradox, for me there is a self but at the same time there is not a self. As there is a puzzle (image) but if I look closer I can see that is only little pieces merged togheter ( no-puzzle ).

Doing Vipassana you actually work on see the pieces that made the self and expirence directly this "truth". It can be very liberating!

But dont get worried about the whole thing, insight arrise on their own, It can't be forced but it can be observed, and what to observe? The three characteristics, you know, right? emoticon

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 7:52 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
It makes things seem like more of a paradox than it actually is...

It is a paradox! Part of this practice is to become comfortable with that.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 8:39 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
It both is and isn't. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 9:06 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Meta paradox!   emoticon

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 9:57 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yup. emoticon That was the point I was trying ta make all along but I didn't find the words for it.

Of course, when we approach this within a paradigm that treats logic as a given, which is quite common (although not universal), then it is a paradox. But logic is empty too. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 10:14 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
Mista Tibbs:
terr:
Well, my friend, if you are driving then your thoughts should be on the wheel adjustment. Your thoughts should be on the pressure on the gas. Your thoughts should be concerned with your speed and staying in the lanes. You should attempt to be aware of all these. If our chaperone was thinking about playing the violin while driving... I really wouldn't want to be in that car! Safer to just walk it!


   Nonsense. Anyone who knows how to drive drives better when not thinking about making all those little adjustments than they do when they are thinking about them. And this truth applies to everything we "do."

   Consider the athlete who is "automatic" or "unconscious" and playing perfectly. Swish.

t

Nonsense? Lemme tell you a story... I bought my first car three years ago, a Toyota Celica GT. I had no license and zero prior experience behind the wheel so I waited until 2 am to test drive it around my neighborhood. I considered the wheel adjustment, my grip, the pressure on the pedals, the necessary speed over bumps, around turns, and specific parts of the road ahead of me... it was so relaxing. Since I had already familiarized myself with the rules of the road at least, I decided to drive out of the neighborhood and to a mountain view eight miles away. The streets were nearly empty, barren, perfect. The last two miles, however, were over a twisting and rising mountain road. Driving is simple when focus is on driving and not doing the laundry emoticon There I sat on the roof of my car looking over the hills. The atmosphere was really nice. Night is my favorite time to be out! I thought about it and decided to drive completely through the rest of the winding and escalating mountain pass to reach the driftwood shore on malibu 16 miles away. And so I did, and had my first campfire on the beach. I stayed there all night... and when the sun came out, so too did all the people! I had to drive back the 24 miles among all the disorder of other cars. But my attention was on the wheel, the pedals, the speed, the lanes, the road, and it was such a calming drive. I went for my license after this joyride. This happened shortly afterwards... I found myself in a few illegal street races after sunset. You know the classic moment when someone pulls up next to you and revs their engine? Like that, the cars adjacent and behind also start revving theirs! I only ever lost twice and to the same driver in a tricked out red beast of a truck that roared as if its engine had been stripped from a train! So I had a few experiences, had my fun, and stopped emoticon I'm a very care-full driver, still eagerly waiting on my first accident. That will be a great lesson!!! 
I remember chatting with my cousin who told me she had paid 500$ for driving lessons... WOW!
Personal experience is a good teacher with no charge! How you think about something is how you think about it.
A particular thing might breed anxiety, but maybe confidence in someone else. That is a personal truth.

We can behave "unconsciously" if we wish. That's a decision and there's nothing wrong with that. We can also behave consciously. That's also a decision and nothing wrong with that. There's no one-and-only correct way to approach life. In the same manner, this body is also just another vehicle we can handle. We don't suffocate if we forget to breathe, do we? Breathing just happens :-)  We don't have to breathe consciously but it'd be really nice if we tried to.

Unconscious? I think you mean sub-conscious. Habituation fixes details into our sub-conscious. Information becomes ingrained like a programming of the mind. Natural talent is a real phenomenon we can gloss over. Consider all the practice the athlete must have put in before those actions became second nature. That swish is a product of meticulous hard work, not daydreaming. What do you think a basketball player is thinking about in the middle of a game? My guess would be the game itself in each moment. The brain will calculate depth perception and the heart will carry oxygen of their own accord so the player can strategize. Sometimes it truly is better to not act so visceral.

aloha mt,

   If you don't know what you are about you have to think a lot, apparently. Thus prolixity.

terry

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 10:43 AM as a reply to Mista Tibbs.
tao te ching, trans mitchell:


11.

We join spokes together in a wheel, 
but it is the center hole 
that makes the wagon move.
We shape clay into a pot, 
but it is the emptiness inside 
that holds whatever we want.
We hammer wood for a house, 
but it is the inner space 
that makes it livable.
We work with being, 
but non-being is what we use. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 10:47 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Hiya, terry.

I've never seen the point of noting various mental and physical activities; why not study medicine and learn from experts. If you care.

If you want to learn more I suggest you explore the practice of vipassana. That's what I've been doing for many years and it's been quite revealing and of many things. It's the primary practice of most of DhO's participants. It works - which is the basis of practical dharma. It's not likely to be what you did terry, but that doesn't make it wrong, or bad, or a waste of time. There's more than one road to the top of the mountain.

emoticon

   I was exploring vipassana when christ was a corporal.

t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 3:08 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Chris Marti:
Hiya, terry.

I've never seen the point of noting various mental and physical activities; why not study medicine and learn from experts. If you care.

If you want to learn more I suggest you explore the practice of vipassana. That's what I've been doing for many years and it's been quite revealing and of many things. It's the primary practice of most of DhO's participants. It works - which is the basis of practical dharma. It's not likely to be what you did terry, but that doesn't make it wrong, or bad, or a waste of time. There's more than one road to the top of the mountain.

emoticon

   I was exploring vipassana when christ was a corporal.

t


Hmm, I was expecting more than this. Sadly I was wrong.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 4:30 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
It makes things seem like more of a paradox than it actually is...

It is a paradox! Part of this practice is to become comfortable with that.

   If we are talking about the same thing, the paradox is about subhuti saying "I am an arhat" and claiming that he never thinks, "I am an arhat."

t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 4:40 PM as a reply to terry.
Yes.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 4:49 PM as a reply to terry.
I don't know who that person is, but I have always found it amusing when people claim verbally that they don't think. Maybe at least some of them mean to say that thinking is happening but that there is awareness that there isn't really a clearly demarcated entity that does the thinking, or even identifies with it anymore as it happens on its own?

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 4:48 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
terry:
Chris Marti:
Hiya, terry.

I've never seen the point of noting various mental and physical activities; why not study medicine and learn from experts. If you care.

If you want to learn more I suggest you explore the practice of vipassana. That's what I've been doing for many years and it's been quite revealing and of many things. It's the primary practice of most of DhO's participants. It works - which is the basis of practical dharma. It's not likely to be what you did terry, but that doesn't make it wrong, or bad, or a waste of time. There's more than one road to the top of the mountain.

emoticon

   I was exploring vipassana when christ was a corporal.

t


Hmm, I was expecting more than this. Sadly I was wrong.

aloha siavash,

    More is available, but there is a limit to how much I am willing to name names  and dates and places on a public list. Message me and I can give you some of my actual background in vipassana (as I recently did for chris, btw). If it matters to you. It doesn't to me.

   I disappoint a lot of people; sometimes I make a point of it. The more of an authority you think I am, the more I am going to disappoint you. Guaranteed.

terry




SHAME ON YOU
(timbuk 3)

Shame shame shame shame shame shame shame
Shame on you, shame on you
You've always taken life in massive doses
Back when you were a child they said you were precocious
You were always doing something that you shouldn't ought to do
And you never did the things that were expected of you
In school you were a troublemaker, always getting caught
Staying up on all the things the teachers never taught
Well, you've got a lot of nerve acting the way you do
You know, something's going to bring a lot of shame on you
Shame on you, shame on you
Shame on you, shame on you
Man, you could have had power and a hot position
Like a hotshot lawyer or a bigshot politician
You could have been the head of a major corporation
Instead you're working part time at a filling station
Doing comedy on the side, you're really quite funny
But dude, don't you know you could be making big money?
Shame on you, you haven't got a dime
Shame on you, for having such a good time
Shame on you, you're a disgrace to everyone
Shame on you, you're having too much fun
Shame on you, shame on you
Shame on you, shame on you
Well, I remember that producer down in Hollywood
Who came to hear you play, and said you were good
It was your one big break,
If you only would have played your cards a little smarter
By now you'd have it made, your own TV show, or recording contract!
And all you had to do was lighten up your act!
A stairway to the stars, a one-way ticket
But you, you had to go and tell him where he could stick it
Shame on you, you could have been on TV
Shame on you, you have too much integrity
Shame on you, you should have kept the door open
Shame on you, you're just too outspoken
Shame on you, you haven't got a dime
Shame on you, for having such a good time
Shame on you, you're a disgrace to everyone
Shame on you, you're having too much fun
Shame on you, you're having too much fun
Shame on you, you're having too much fun

Songwriters: Angela Mcalinden / Horse Mcdonald

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 4:53 PM as a reply to terry.
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:06 PM as a reply to terry.
I was exploring vipassana when christ was a corporal.

Yeah. That's about the same time I was exploring Zen.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:07 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:


 this might be one of the rare occasions when it isn't me going off topic...

t


I find that you are usually very much on topic, although sometimes it doesn’t look like it on the surface. You’ve got that trickster thing going on, like a jester hiding truths in jokes.

I think it was all on topic in this case, just emanating from different paradigms that operate on different modes of reality.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:09 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
   I was exploring vipassana when christ was a corporal.

t


Hmm, I was expecting more than this. Sadly I was wrong.



tao te ching, trans feng


67.

Some say that my teaching is nonsense. 
Others call it lofty but impractical. 
But to those who have looked inside themselves, 
this nonsense makes perfect sense. 
And to those who put it into practice, 
this loftiness has roots that go deep.
I have just three things to teach: 
simplicity, patience, compassion. 
These three are your greatest treasures. 
Simple in actions and in thoughts, 
you return to the source of being. 
Patient with both friends and enemies, 
you accord with the way things are. 
Compassionate toward yourself, 
you reconcile all beings in the world. 




65.

The ancient Masters 
didn't try to educate the people, 
but kindly taught them to not-know.
When they think that they know the answers, 
people are difficult to guide. 
When they know that they don't know, 
people can find their own way.
If you want to learn how to govern, 
avoid being clever or rich. 
The simplest pattern is the clearest. 
Content with an ordinary life, 
you can show all people the way 
back to their own true nature. 




from 35.


Passersby may stop for music and good food,
But a description of the Tao
Seems without substance or flavor.
It cannot be seen, it cannot be heard,
And yet it cannot be exhausted.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:12 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.


may all beings not be disappointed...

no worries, bra, I am hard to offend...

t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:13 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.

I think that they might enjoy the bickering. Jargon between friends can sometimes look much harsher from the outside than it is for the interlocutors. Just a thought.

Sorry for talking about you two in third person, terry and Chris, and sorry for assuming things.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:15 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:


 this might be one of the rare occasions when it isn't me going off topic...

t


I find that you are usually very much on topic, although sometimes it doesn’t look like it on the surface. You’ve got that trickster thing going on, like a jester hiding truths in jokes.

I think it was all on topic in this case, just emanating from different paradigms that operate on different modes of reality.


    I guess by some paradigms I am usually on topic and by others I am always on sometangent or other.

   I am glad you find me...

t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:16 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.


may all beings not be disappointed...

no worries, bra, I am hard to offend...

t


Not meant to offend you at all :-)
I said it because I like you and respect you, and that was the root cause.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:16 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.

I think that they might enjoy the bickering. Jargon between friends can sometimes look much harsher from the outside than it is for the interlocutors. Just a thought.

Sorry for talking about you two in third person, terry and Chris, and sorry for assuming things.

   harsh?

   really?

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:19 PM as a reply to terry.
Haha, probably. Sometimes it makes sense in more than one paradigm, but in very different ways.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:23 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.

I think that they might enjoy the bickering. Jargon between friends can sometimes look much harsher from the outside than it is for the interlocutors. Just a thought.

Sorry for talking about you two in third person, terry and Chris, and sorry for assuming things.

   harsh?

   really?


   I may have missed the point here altogether. If chris wants to try to teach grandpa how to suck eggs, it is a joke to me whatever he might actually even mean, though I assume he was joking, being the charitable sort of guy I am.

   If a rational, edifying and perhaps even amusing discussion on the merits of vipassana vs just sitting is wanted, me and chris could likely provide one, I imagine. If it would please anyone.

   It would be off-topic. And will probably come around on the guitar at some point anyway.

   I like to think chris and I are friends and would not jeopardize that relationship for any sort of cheap thrill.

terry

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:22 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
terry:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.


may all beings not be disappointed...

no worries, bra, I am hard to offend...

t


Not meant to offend you at all :-)
I said it because I like you and respect you, and that was the root cause.

well it's mutual, brother, and if I ever sound harsh to you it's probably is not what I mean...


t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:26 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
terry:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.


may all beings not be disappointed...

no worries, bra, I am hard to offend...

t


Not meant to offend you at all :-)
I said it because I like you and respect you, and that was the root cause.

well it's mutual, brother, and if I ever sound harsh to you it's probably is not what I mean...


t


Thanks :-) ,
It's this dialog over the internet that makes us misunderstand each other. And I often don't get it when it's not meant to be serious, I often find out later that people were joking about something! Apologize you all about that.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 5:33 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.

I think that they might enjoy the bickering. Jargon between friends can sometimes look much harsher from the outside than it is for the interlocutors. Just a thought.

Sorry for talking about you two in third person, terry and Chris, and sorry for assuming things.

   harsh?

   really?
I think it is very possible to read the dialogue between the two of you that way, without enough context. I remember that I did wonder a couple of times when I was new to the forum, but then I saw the warmth in it, or what I now interpret as warmth. Tone in written text on the internet... even more elusive than a stable equanimity nana. 

EDIT: Ah, all solved. Great. And I managed to read between the lines correctly this time, it appears. Wohoo! 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 6:52 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I was exploring vipassana when christ was a corporal.

Yeah. That's about the same time I was exploring Zen.


   Me and woody guthrie were on hand to organize the apple pickers union in the garden of eden.

   I knew your parents before they were born.

   (I got dozens...)

t

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 7:10 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
terry:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
terry:
Siavash Mahmoudpour:
Thank you for your response terry,
Actually I wasn't thinking about the names or dates and such. Probably my comment was a mistake, but I meant exactly the opposite.

I was thinking something like: Why should terry come and say, hey don't remind me the basics, I have already that much experience and etc... . I hope I could convey it.


may all beings not be disappointed...

no worries, bra, I am hard to offend...

t


Not meant to offend you at all :-)
I said it because I like you and respect you, and that was the root cause.

well it's mutual, brother, and if I ever sound harsh to you it's probably is not what I mean...


t


Thanks :-) ,
It's this dialog over the internet that makes us misunderstand each other. And I often don't get it when it's not meant to be serious, I often find out later that people were joking about something! Apologize you all about that.

aloha sm,

   You can just about bet that there is some sort of humor involved in virtually everything I post. I was born a smartass, and have only perfected the art over a long career.

   I spoke to my (elder) brother, who is almost two years older than I, about searching out your earliest memories as a technique in meditation. My earliest memory was pooping in the bathtub where my brother and I were being bathed together, which everyone laughed at, so I must have been very young. His earliest memory was of the two of us in a doctor's office, I could not have been much above one year old. The doctor leaned down over me, and looking at his chart, said, "'Terence Patrick Murphy,' you must be Irish." I looked up at him, cocked an eye, and said, "No, I'm Jewish." (This was NYC.)

   True story.

terry

   

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/30/20 7:16 PM as a reply to terry.
Thank you for reminding me of that,
I should be more careful about interpreting things that don't seem right to me at first glance.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 6:35 AM as a reply to Siavash.
terry = humor

chris = humor

If this post was a syllogism it would result in...

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 6:36 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
BTW --

misunderstanding = opportunity

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 6:42 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I found that interesting, too, Linda. I have found, for me, that the narration stops for longer periods of time. Most people think of that as the only thinking they know. Of course, my brain is still thinking in the cognitive process, but it is doing it much more silently instead of describing everything and taking credit. Bear in mind - this happens only sometimes. Sometimes for an hour, sometimes for five days. It feels like not thinking when it's that quiet inside.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 6:44 AM as a reply to terry.
 Me and woody guthrie were on hand to organize the apple pickers union in the garden of eden.

I saw you, terry, but I was so busy talking to Cesar Chavez I didn't say "Hi." Sorry about that.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 7:29 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
BTW --

misunderstanding = opportunity


I like that approach a lot. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 7:46 AM as a reply to T.
T:
I found that interesting, too, Linda. I have found, for me, that the narration stops for longer periods of time. Most people think of that as the only thinking they know. Of course, my brain is still thinking in the cognitive process, but it is doing it much more silently instead of describing everything and taking credit. Bear in mind - this happens only sometimes. Sometimes for an hour, sometimes for five days. It feels like not thinking when it's that quiet inside.

That sounds like a great relief, or at least as something that could be one, if one doesn't cling to the narratives. I have had periods in my life when the storytelling diminished radically and I sometimes found it frightening. I think that for me there was still unconscious storytelling going on underneath much of the time, though (but not always, because sometimes it felt peaceful, although people around tend to lump those very different things together and refer to all of it as dissociation and pathologize it as soon as one has some (neuro)psychiatric diagnosis already), which made it harder to deal with. Recently there have been lots of shifts of perspectives going on back and forth. When the storytelling is predominant, that seems harder than I was used to. The suffering attached to it is so much more apparent. Noticing that is probably a good thing, even when it feels awful. The peace that pops up now and then is definitely something I welcome (although apparently some resistance still remains, as there is still struggle).

So how is it for you? Does it feel like a welcome development?

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 10:58 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
BTW --

misunderstanding = opportunity


Yes.
It takes experience to learn.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 11:17 AM as a reply to Siavash.
It feels good to learn that something was much better than one had thought, doesn't it? If you hadn't commented, you still wouldn't know,

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 11:23 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Good point.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 12:13 PM as a reply to Siavash.
I appreciate the compassion behind words, terry, Chris, and Linda.

(Assuming something again! But that's ok :-) )

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 5:56 PM as a reply to terry.
I really like Kenneth Folks approach to any such dilemmas. emoticon  If I had a question or assumption he would always tell me "is there/is this .... (such and such) ... hm, I don't know ... let me see ... touching, coolness, wondering, itching, hearing, ... " emoticon such a sober way to deal with any arising of such sort. 

I mean there are schools that teach this direct dwelling on non-duality like Neo-advayita (name ? ) but seeing those students on YouTube falling apart makes me feel sick to me stomach and I really feel sorry for them. I think Kenneth has respect for Adyashanti but to me it's just kind of creepy stuff and very unnecessary as Noting technique (especially aloud) can help you in this quest in a much safer way (espeacially if having a good teacher). 

I would suggest (as you are on this forum already) to use such Noting teaching and use this no-self subject as your meditation object. Like; "what is no-self ... let me see ... (and keep noting the sensations as they come one by one. There could be all sorts of stuff there like pressure in the solar plexus or tightness in the belly or throat, maybe some sensations on the chest ... how does it feel, is it unpleasant pleasant ... This would be of more benefit than thinking oneself into "no-self being free from ego that does a not exist (or does it)" kind of thinking. 

basically a pragmatic approach to finding answers. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 6:46 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
So how is it for you? Does it feel like a welcome development?

The first time it happened, it is hard to articulate how it felt. It was eerie, really. There was a sense of automaticity to the level that it felt as if I were, say, having the first-person perspective of Zelda; completely controlled by some unseen hands on an N64 controller. I was just doing, seeing, moving, driving, and yet seemed to have absolutely no agency about it. It was freeing, alarming, interesting, exciting. Right about the time I settled into it - it "wore off." In that hour or so, it was as if I had no agency at all, though upon reflection it wasn't so dramatic. 

The second time I noticed it, it lasted roughly a week after a realization that I wasn't the center of anything at all. It was simply perspective, and a faulty one. The narrative fell away entirely, including the subtle talk (generally negative and judgemental) and it was sublime, in a sense. Peaceful. Not at all eerie or odd. I was more aware of still processing mentally (minus narrative) and being a part of it, as opposed to the former. 

I have since noticed that it happens more often in very small doses. I think there is some acclimation to it, so it doesn't stand out as starkly as it did initially. However, there is the possibility that it isn't happening to such an extent, and also that since it doesn't stand out to me, I don't note it to the same degree as it settles into normalcy with frequency. I lean toward the former, but I'm unsure. I'm trying not to get attached to it... and yet. emoticon That could be why I've been stale in meditation for a bit...?

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
1/31/20 11:52 PM as a reply to T.
Very cool. I'd love to read more about how it develops.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/1/20 9:58 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
... no-self subject...

There is another dollar in my cookie jar this morning!  emoticon

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/3/20 4:32 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Hiya, terry.

I've never seen the point of noting various mental and physical activities; why not study medicine and learn from experts. If you care.

If you want to learn more I suggest you explore the practice of vipassana. That's what I've been doing for many years and it's been quite revealing and of many things. It's the primary practice of most of DhO's participants. It works - which is the basis of practical dharma. It's not likely to be what you did terry, but that doesn't make it wrong, or bad, or a waste of time. There's more than one road to the top of the mountain.

emoticon


aloha chris,

   Perhaps I should take another crack at this.

   I think you misunderstood me. Of course, if I say the same thing three times in different contexts, it means three different things. And I have said before I don't see the point of "noting." It could mean, "Noting is pointless, in my opinion." It could mean, people who "note" are misguided and "should" do something else. Or, bra, it could mean exactly what I said, which is "I don't see the point."

   You could have explained the point to me. I have asked a number of times what "a & p" mean and no one has bothered to explain what that means either. At some point none of the jargon (eg "nanas") has any interest for me, being as the names of these nebulosities mean whatever anyone wants them to mean. Still, I wonder what it means to you, brother.

   The idea that a book, or an authority - any book, any authority - can be accessed for definitive answers is humbug, to me. Speak for yourself, or hold your peace, is the way I see it.

   Now, I can maybe understand how someone with a bad case of monkey mind is so flooded with chaotic thinking that simply occupying the mind with some sort of "pointless" activity serves the function of suppressing the uncontrollable while the momentum of practice builds up and real peace begins to seep in. Like counting breaths. (Yes, I too counted breaths, I think it was during the jurassic.)

   I would like to suggest that you and other practiced meditators don't need more insight "on demand" so to speak. Insight in the end is just more "content." Distractions. Perhaps you could tell me what sort of insights you get and why you think they are important and new, and worthy of attention.

   Richard zen recently commented on a thread, I forget which, about what he called "the jhanas," and how taking pleasure in these jhanas is "good pleasure" and worthwhile, presumably as opposed to sense pleasures. This struck me as right in line with the pali canon, the attitude of the early sangha towards "abiding" in peaceful meditation when not engaged in some particular activity. Were these arhats "abiding" in vipassana, the pursuit of insight, and noting? I don't think so.

   For myself, I literally avoid insight while meditating, finding my non-meditative time flooded with insight all the time. Insight being my daily bread, I fast while meditating. And richard zen's jhanas feel like home to me, as I abide in pleasurable, non-temporal, womb-like containment.

   Why don't you tell me of your actual experience and what it means to you, in this respect. Without sarcasm this time.

mahalos,
terry

   

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/3/20 10:36 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
 Me and woody guthrie were on hand to organize the apple pickers union in the garden of eden.

I saw you, terry, but I was so busy talking to Cesar Chavez I didn't say "Hi." Sorry about that.


aloha chris,

   We used to play a game back in nyc when I was boy, the black kids taught us, called "the dozens."

   It went like this:


   "Yo' mama is so fat/ugly/stupid that she blanks when she blanks."

   "Oh yeah, well yo' mama...".


   Like rap, the game is deceptively difficult and involved. The trick was to come up with an insult that could be close enough to some truth that the opponent would get angry, thus revealing you had struck a nerve, and his mama probably really was fat/ugly/stupid.

   It was fun until someone lost. Their mama might even hear about it.

terry

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/4/20 7:02 AM as a reply to terry.
 Why don't you tell me of your actual experience and what it means to you, in this respect. Without sarcasm this time.

Oh gosh terry, I assumed you didn't have any experience with vipassana and I was just pointing you to one source of information. Not THE source. I can't read your mind so I didn't know, as you have since explained in IM to me, that you do indeed have experience with the method. I have no idea, still, why you dropped it, or that you don't still use it. 

Also, please read all about my actual personal practice experiences right here. There are seven long-ish parts, so if you need to get sleepy at bedtime, this is something to consider.



RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/4/20 8:01 AM as a reply to terry.
I would like to suggest that you and other practiced meditators don't need more insight "on demand" so to speak. Insight in the end is just more "content." Distractions. Perhaps you could tell me what sort of insights you get and why you think they are important and new, and worthy of attention.

I don't use vipassana noting practice much at all anymore. If I use it at all, I do so only to remind myself of how the chain of dependent origination plays out. For me, vipassana is the practice of watching how content plays out in the mind - what it's made of - not getting distracted by it. Not the content of the stories, but their chains of causality. This was the unique power of vipassana and noting for me: seeing how mind constructed this so-called "reality" nano-second by nano-second. That's sort of what my practice diary (linked to in my last post) was all about - what does that enable next, and next, and next?

Finally, there is a lot of jargon here on DhO related to the practice of vipassana and the unique noting techniques of Mahasi Sayadaw as interpreted by several prominent progenitors of the practical dharma movement, in particular, Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk. I tend to get caught up in that jargon and I also tend to assume everyone here is familiar with it. When they're not, my "go-to" is to point them to Daniel Ingram's book, not to dismiss them but to help educate.

Best!

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/10/20 8:03 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I would like to suggest that you and other practiced meditators don't need more insight "on demand" so to speak. Insight in the end is just more "content." Distractions. Perhaps you could tell me what sort of insights you get and why you think they are important and new, and worthy of attention.

I don't use vipassana noting practice much at all anymore. If I use it at all, I do so only to remind myself of how the chain of dependent origination plays out. For me, vipassana is the practice of watching how content plays out in the mind - what it's made of - not getting distracted by it. Not the content of the stories, but their chains of causality. This was the unique power of vipassana and noting for me: seeing how mind constructed this so-called "reality" nano-second by nano-second. That's sort of what my practice diary (linked to in my last post) was all about - what does that enable next, and next, and next?

Finally, there is a lot of jargon here on DhO related to the practice of vipassana and the unique noting techniques of Mahasi Sayadaw as interpreted by several prominent progenitors of the practical dharma movement, in particular, Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk. I tend to get caught up in that jargon and I also tend to assume everyone here is familiar with it. When they're not, my "go-to" is to point them to Daniel Ingram's book, not to dismiss them but to help educate.

Best!

aloha chris,

   If you really think I don't know something, teach me, rather than tell me to hit the books. I've hit lots of books, and am broadly familiar with most traditional techniques. It's not me being reactive here, I'm not the one that thought your implied criticism was "harsh" or that we were "bickering." I barely noticed and was happy to let it go.

   I am interested in what the "jargon" actually means to people, as opposed to what is (presumed to be) in a book or has been taught by a teacher. Even buddhist terms have no fixed meaning. I never see this stuff the same way twice.

   I tend to ignore jargon that passes unexplained. Occasionally I may remark that unexplained jargon is essentially meaningless, especially when people assume you understand what they do by the terms they use. LIke "jhanas" or "stream entry," not to mention "nanas." Even "arising and passing away" has been used so broadly and obscurely one has to wonder if anyone knows what they are talking about. What is a phenomenon, and from what does it arise and into what does it pass away? The use of jargon presumes understanding and thus makes people feel like they know what they are talking about, which is such a pleasant and comfortable feeling that it may pass unnoticed even to themselves that they actually don't know (which is nothing to be ashamed of, and is the human condition). When everyone in a group takes the same things for granted, group think arises, and "understanding" becomes conventional. Thus outliers seem to be rebels, as they don't "know" what "everyone" knows. I avoid threads where a lot of jargon is being used.

   I can say that I am unfamiliar with some of the teachers people here like.. People who imagine they are improving the dharma appear to me to be deluded from the start. Plus, I have little interest in people who profess to be teachers of enlightenment; I tend to assume such a profession is incompatible with actual gnosis. True teachers always hide themselves, in Self defense. It takes a learner to make a teacher. Frankly, I avoid reading or watching modern teachers because I don't want to be critical of sincere people, whether leaders or followers. One taste is enough to know.

   I have found that people often quote material they can't explain and presumably don't understand.

   It was once said of elizabeth barrett browning's spiritual poetry that "she wrote like a dog walking on its hind legs." If a given work does not have substantial literary or poetic merit, I can't read it. That's just me. It is not like I need more information on the subject, after all. Learning jargon so I can sound like other folks never did appeal to me.

   I suppose some might consider me uninformed or ignorant because I haven't read what they have read. Maybe I am. It's ok. I don't mind being thought of that way. 

  The implication was that I have little respect for people who pursue noting or vipassana. As though my not seeing the point to these practices were a criticism. If I give anyone that impression, I am sorry.

terry

   

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 5:21 AM as a reply to terry.
I use noting as one of my methods, and I wasn't offended. I just assumed that you personally didn't see the point of it, just like you said (sometimes the autistic way of not reading much between the lines comes in handy), and I don't find that problematic. If you don't find it helpful, then why bother doing it. For me it is a very helpful method at times when I get caught up in chains of thoughts and feelings, for instance, to get some distance. At other times, it doesn't work that well for me because the noting has me making distinctions where I see continuums, and I find that very tiresome. Labels don't always come natural to me (that is part of my autistic functioning as well). There are so much more nuances than there are labels, and so much more ways of distinguishing things than there are systems of labels, and I often find that I can't just pick one system. I often have a hard time "deciding" where "things" begin and end, and what is figure and what is background. I struggle with that in daily life quite a lot (and it is also my greatest strength as an ethnographer and researcher, because it makes me think outside "the box" - I mean, what fucking box???) and I often prefer to rest from it in my meditation. So I don't find it very odd that someone would find noting pointless. And luckily there are many ways to go, as Chris already said. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 5:27 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
And terry: As for A&P, I find it easier to make sense of it as Kundalini awakening, because I'm not always in the mindset that allows me to distinguish particular things that can arise and pass away. For me it is most often not so binary. I have found that if I decide to focus on something specific, that I have chosen to distinguish, then I can shift perspectives between waveform and particle form, so to speak. And sure, the clarity of that is at a peak during the phase referred to as the A&P. But that's not my main tell. I recognize it mainly from its energetic manifestations and from my mood. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 5:56 AM as a reply to terry.
Amen, terry. Just additional identity groups, potentially. 

- I sneezed and I farted at the same time.
- Classic A&P event! You're not enlightened. Move on. 

- I think I nodded off, and a wildabeest wandered through a forest
- 62nd Nana, 3rd degree black belt. Not enlightened. Hit the books, kid. 

- WTF are you all even talking about?!?!?! I'm so lost!
- Ah! Dark Night Yogi! Hang in there, bud. Quality practice will set you free. (<<< What does that even mean??)

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 6:50 AM as a reply to terry.
   If you really think I don't know something, teach me, rather than tell me to hit the books. I've hit lots of books, and am broadly familiar with most traditional techniques. It's not me being reactive here, I'm not the one that thought your implied criticism was "harsh" or that we were "bickering." I barely noticed and was happy to let it go.

Hiya, terry.

Are we supposed to be arguing about something? I'm happy to let it all go, too. So I am.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 6:51 AM as a reply to T.
emoticon

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 8:21 AM as a reply to T.
T:
Quality practice will set you free. (<<< What does that even mean??)

It means that there is a way out of unhelpful patterns of thinking and behavior, through the application of methods which clarify these patterns and encourage more nuanced thinking and more refined responses. emoticon  But maybe that was a rhetorical question. emoticon

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 1:14 PM as a reply to shargrol.
emoticon  But maybe that was a rhetorical question. emoticon

It was very much so, and aimed at the specific piece about "quality practice," not so much what freedom means. I do appreciate your kindly answering the freedom from portion, as I think it's useful to have out there over and over again. I'm lost on what a quality method looks like - particularly since everything in existence is subjective to that which perceives it (it seems).

I'm practicing the quality right out of my meditation - doesn't seem to be doing much. 

I actually mean it only somewhat facetiously. The simple act of sitting and doing nothing/monitoring breath/chanting/reciting or whatever form it takes quickly makes space and can very quickly change the fast and automatic responses (usually not-so-great habitual ones) one has ingrained in one's personality. 

However...it quickly becomes obvious, to a certain extent, that this isn't the quality 'people' reference, as it doesn't necessarily lead to the states that 'everyone' likes to describe and aim for. When one questions what to do - the response is often "quality practice."

I imagine this is well-intended, but maybe it's just not obvious how obscure this is as an answer to those who already know how. 

How shall I be certain to gain a seat at this prestigious conference? - quality writing, of course. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 1:23 PM as a reply to T.
T:
So how is it for you? Does it feel like a welcome development?

The first time it happened, it is hard to articulate how it felt. It was eerie, really. There was a sense of automaticity to the level that it felt as if I were, say, having the first-person perspective of Zelda; completely controlled by some unseen hands on an N64 controller. I was just doing, seeing, moving, driving, and yet seemed to have absolutely no agency about it. It was freeing, alarming, interesting, exciting. Right about the time I settled into it - it "wore off." In that hour or so, it was as if I had no agency at all, though upon reflection it wasn't so dramatic. 

The second time I noticed it, it lasted roughly a week after a realization that I wasn't the center of anything at all. It was simply perspective, and a faulty one. The narrative fell away entirely, including the subtle talk (generally negative and judgemental) and it was sublime, in a sense. Peaceful. Not at all eerie or odd. I was more aware of still processing mentally (minus narrative) and being a part of it, as opposed to the former. 

I have since noticed that it happens more often in very small doses. I think there is some acclimation to it, so it doesn't stand out as starkly as it did initially. However, there is the possibility that it isn't happening to such an extent, and also that since it doesn't stand out to me, I don't note it to the same degree as it settles into normalcy with frequency. I lean toward the former, but I'm unsure. I'm trying not to get attached to it... and yet. emoticon That could be why I've been stale in meditation for a bit...?

So... you say that this happens and that meditation quickly challenges habitual patterns. Yet, nothing happens? What are you expecting? Fireworks? 

Or are you saying that things used to happen and now you feel stuck? I can relate to that, very much.

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 1:46 PM as a reply to T.
T:
emoticon  But maybe that was a rhetorical question. emoticon

It was very much so, and aimed at the specific piece about "quality practice," not so much what freedom means. I do appreciate your kindly answering the freedom from portion, as I think it's useful to have out there over and over again. I'm lost on what a quality method looks like - particularly since everything in existence is subjective to that which perceives it (it seems).

I'm practicing the quality right out of my meditation - doesn't seem to be doing much. 

I actually mean it only somewhat facetiously. The simple act of sitting and doing nothing/monitoring breath/chanting/reciting or whatever form it takes quickly makes space and can very quickly change the fast and automatic responses (usually not-so-great habitual ones) one has ingrained in one's personality. 

However...it quickly becomes obvious, to a certain extent, that this isn't the quality 'people' reference, as it doesn't necessarily lead to the states that 'everyone' likes to describe and aim for. When one questions what to do - the response is often "quality practice."

I imagine this is well-intended, but maybe it's just not obvious how obscure this is as an answer to those who already know how. 

How shall I be certain to gain a seat at this prestigious conference? - quality writing, of course. 

Have you considered the possibility that your practice is out of synch with the phase you are currently in? Like trying to maintain a very narrow focus in a phase when a wider focus would be more suitable, or the opposite? I find that it isn't always easy to tell. 

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 2:24 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
(Not a reply to Linda)

T, I see you posted a practice-related discussion in another thread, I'll post over there...

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/11/20 7:23 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
So... you say that this happens and that meditation quickly challenges habitual patterns. Yet, nothing happens? What are you expecting? Fireworks? 

Or are you saying that things used to happen and now you feel stuck? I can relate to that, very much.

Ha! Touche, Linda! Those things didn't happen in meditation - I assume they were a result of meditation, but only one was directly related after-the-fact. The very first time it was brought on by simply watching a video by Rupert Spira. 

Anyway - yea, kinda. Unless this stuff is so subtle I can't possibly fathom it, I've been reading descriptions that seem like fireworks. Granted, I figured this was due to lots and lots of meditation, but I hoped maybe for some tiny sparks...? emoticon I should clarify what I mean... as a result of meditation I have seen different things in daily life, and I see changes in my habits and perspectives (less-so on the latter). This all occurs in simple, daily life. 

Many of the directives, guidance, and discussion here goes into how either massive concentration leading to jhanas and/or dissecting reality with a mind-toothed comb leads to all sorts of varying experiences. It isn't the experiences themselves, so much, that I am aiming for, as it is the statements about how these are such great tools to use toward the ultimate end. 

As for your second comment, below the one I quoted - I don't understand what that means. It's okay, though!

RE: Trouble understanding that there is no "Doer"
Answer
2/12/20 3:49 AM as a reply to T.
The fireworks type of experiences is just cosmetics. It isn't important. It doesn't happen to everyone, and it does not mean that the meditation is somehow better. It just presents differently for different people as we are all differently wired. 

My comment about narrow or wide scope probably makes more sense with some methods than with others. Say for instance that you are focusing on the breath. You could choose to sense the breath at a small point between your nose and lips or you could sense it in your entire body as widely as you possibly can. Sometimes the narrow focus is more in tune with one's capacity, sometimes the wider one. 

(Edited because I realized I used the wrong word, one that doesn't mean what it sounds like to me as a Swedish-speaker.)