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End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 2/6/20 7:31 PM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/8/20 3:21 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 2/8/20 4:12 AM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/8/20 10:10 AM
RE: End of in-breath Chris Marti 2/8/20 12:34 PM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/8/20 1:18 PM
RE: End of in-breath Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/8/20 1:42 PM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/8/20 3:36 PM
RE: End of in-breath Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/9/20 2:18 AM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/9/20 4:24 AM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/9/20 8:17 AM
RE: End of in-breath Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/9/20 11:34 AM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/9/20 11:42 AM
RE: End of in-breath Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/9/20 12:16 PM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/9/20 2:08 PM
RE: End of in-breath Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/9/20 4:08 PM
RE: End of in-breath Chris Marti 2/9/20 4:13 PM
RE: End of in-breath Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/9/20 4:50 PM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 2/9/20 11:51 PM
RE: End of in-breath Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/10/20 1:29 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 4/13/20 10:12 AM
RE: End of in-breath spatial 4/13/20 10:49 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 4/13/20 11:32 AM
RE: End of in-breath spatial 4/14/20 8:40 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 4/14/20 9:29 AM
RE: End of in-breath Tim Farrington 4/23/20 7:12 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 4/14/20 9:47 AM
RE: End of in-breath Tim Farrington 4/16/20 10:02 AM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/8/20 3:39 PM
RE: End of in-breath Chris Marti 2/8/20 8:04 PM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/9/20 3:59 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 2/8/20 6:32 PM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/9/20 6:02 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 2/9/20 7:32 AM
RE: End of in-breath Che Guebuddha 2/9/20 8:00 AM
RE: End of in-breath neko 2/8/20 6:27 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 3/12/20 10:49 AM
RE: End of in-breath Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/12/20 10:08 AM
RE: End of in-breath Mike Smirnoff 3/12/20 10:30 AM
End of in-breath
Answer
2/6/20 7:31 PM
I have two questions: 

1. Are there any cessation-like phenomena (which give the illusion of cessation but are not) which happen at the end of the in-breath? My understanding is that cessation happens at the end of the out-breath. And that, this remains true for someone who repeatedly undergoes fruition. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

2.  I've read that people can be in cessation for an hour. Traditional accounts and modern accounts. Basically, they decide, they will be in cessation, a particular day, a particular time for a particular amount of time, and they are able to do that. What does this mean? If cessation happens at the end of the out-breath, what is their experience like during their in-breath? Are they still in cessation? Question is: what is the experience of a person who is sitting in cessation for an hour. 

For 2., I don't think breath or materiality-mentality stops for the hour. What happens, per my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that in their experience, they are absorbed in the nibbana-dhatu, and thus, for them, there is no experience. Thus, subjective experience has ended. However, objectively, phenomena (breath, bodily functions, motions of protons, electrons, neutrons) are going on as usual.

Would appreciate, much, all your thoughts ...

 

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 3:21 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Cesseation is like being in a sleep. You simply dont have any remeberance of it. There is no you no there as space or non-space, there is nothing. Actually even saying that there is Nothing is wrong as "I" would have to be there to say that its Nothing! Having no concious rememberance of whatever's gone missing. You only remember before and after the cessation. Feeling after is that something has gone missing. No perception of time duration. As when you wake up from a sleep you must look at the clock to see how long you were asleeep otherwise you have no clue.

You are assuming. I would suggest test instead of assuming. Resolve that you want to attain to Stream Entry or at least resume that you really want to really get throuhg the Dark Night and EQ which in itself will result in Stream Entry anyway.
You can do this by practicing Noting, unbroken, stream of Noting during your practice time Not getting lost in day dreaming or narratives about the Nirvana, Cessation or what it might feel like etc ...

I find that Noting Aloud will counteract this tendency getting off the main tast. It really is very effective at destroying hindrances fast so they loose their grip almost as they arise. They become part of the Noting Stream and pass. 

Can you put into words your current practice and how you do it?

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 4:12 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Hi Che,

Thanks for writing! 

To answer your questions: My practice is a mix of Goenka style breath (not body scan) + Mahasi noting.
This boils down to this: focus attention on the in and out breath at the tip of the nose.
Not only focus on in and out but also the sensation of the touch of the breath on the upper lip
(some times, focus is more in in and out of the breath, other times, more on the sensation).
Keep noting thoughts along with it.  Then, keep discerning the anicca, dukkha, anatta aspect of
everything that comes.

My guess is that I crossed the A & P on a Goenka course in 2001 (my first serious meditation attempt) and
hen landed in the dark night for the last so many years. Or I may have crossed A & P before, I don't know.

I did resolve to get stream entry. My problem has been that I don't have a teacher. In the
past I have done Goenka retreats. Now, I follow books. I was on a 20-day self retreat and was
following the advice from the books of Daniel Ingram, Insight meditation book of Mahasi Sayadaw,
the advice given in navigating the stages of insight section of Shaila Catherine's book, and the
advice and techniques listed in the stages of insight section of Visuddhimagga.

I think I went through the stages of insight until equanimity. Going through corruptions of insight
was especially clear. Of course, no teacher, so, I don't like to come to any firm conclusions yet.

*(I have decided that for at least 1 year, I will not state firmly of what I have passed through, all
I'll do is keep noting the experience, seek advice, and hopefully, some firm conclusions will follow
after an year)*

After having passed through equanimity (or what I thought was equanimity), I resolved for Nibbana.
I let a piegeon out (in my mind), like the simile talked about in Shaila Catherine's book -- that
if you're on a ship, you send a crow out, and if it seems land, it will land on the land. Similarly,
let your mind out towards Nibbana and if it finds it peaceful, it will rest there. Similar thing is
talked about in Mahasi's book. It's a simile taken from the Visuddhimagga. Anyway, I did the same.
The peigeon returned back a number of times, at least 100, but finally rested on "something",
let me call it KKK.

At that point there was a shift. Something was lighter. I had a feeling of something has been
accomplished. I had the feeling of being back to square one. A load was off. I had a feeling that
"God" was finally found. I had a feeling that Nibbana had finally been attained. I had a feeling
that Cessation had finally been experienced.

In real life, since then (this was 2 months ago), I have been able to go through this experience of KKK
thousands of times, many times, I can just say, show me this experience, and I can get it. All of these are momentary
experiences (meaning, I don't have the ability to go KKK at a stretch for a long period if time). 
I do feel a sense of joy after having gone through KKK which matches Visuddhimagga in that for dry-insight 
practitioners, experience of Nibbana is accompnied with joy. Life is better, I have lost some strong attachments since.
Numerous problems still remain.

***This experience happens at the end of the in-breath (at least 99% of the time), not the end of out-breath,
and per Daniel Ingram, fruition always happens at the end of out-breath.***

Thus my question, what are experiences which happen at the end of in-breath which give a cessation
like experience. Also, the other question of what does it mean to sit in cessation for an hour -- this
is for the sake of understanding.


--

PS: Another part of my practice over the last week has been White Kasina. I just started this a week ago. My goal
here is not to get to hard Jhana but just to note the various shifts in perceptions that occur. I think I could see the 
various factors associated with Jhana's 1-4 at various points along with the various kinds of perceptions described
in Daniel Ingram's book.  Of this, I'm pretty sure, but again, no firm conclusions for at least an year. Then I tried to 
get into the form less realms, and either I got into those, or I got a glimpse of the formed versions of those formless
realms 5-8 (per Daniel Ingram's language). Again, no firm conclusions for at least an year.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 6:27 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Che Guebuddha:
Cesseation is like being in a sleep. You simply dont have any remeberance of it.

LMAO

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 10:10 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
In my experience Nibbana can not be experienced, hence no Joy can accompany Nibbana. Do you talk of Joy AFTER the Cessation when you Awake again and can clearly experience Joy as a result of the after shock?

How would you descrive the KKK? Try and get into it again and focus of all its sensate experience to the best of your ability.

Also if you really want a teacher get one emoticon There are those like Kenneth Folk, Michael W. Taft and likely others teaching around these Maps Ingram talks about and in "similar" fashion. I think both of the mentioned above do Skype meetings. I sure am very happy with the fact that I have contacted Kenneth Folk and only woder why the hell havent I done that MUCH earlier emoticon I mean I was stick for almost a decade in Dark Night stuff which was shitting all over my life and over those around me.

Just the fact that one feels accountable to a teacher will move things along is priceless. The aother thing is that a good teacher that knows these territories will quickly see into what really is going on and what is just day dreaming narrative emoticon Ha!

And btw, all this "wait one year and one day" stuff is of no benefit to you or anyone else as if you can tell this to a memebr here thats well versed in such stuff (not me of course) or to a teacher that knows this stuff can be very helpful to you so you can clear up some confusion and come back to the actual path of "seeing clearly" what makes the fabric of your reality. 

Having too many doubts if this if that will only bring about hindrances and confusion and none of these will give you anything good UNLESS you look INTO THESE things sensation after sensation, and use those thoughts, hindrances, confusion, doubt as the objects of your investigation, ACTUAL INVESTIGATION such as;

... thinking, preassure in the chest, heat in the face, unpleasant, coolness, pleasant, hearing, neutral, imagining, anticipating, ... ... ..., whatever there is. 

I hope some well versed and well experienced members chime in so I can also get more out of this thread you started.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 12:34 PM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
CheGuebuddha - have you experienced a cessation/fruition?

Edit: I'm asking because haven't described your practice DhO, at least that I've yet seen.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 1:18 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yes I have experienced the cessation. You are right I have not reported it in the "Claim your Attainments" on DhO, nor have I journaled my practice here or elseplace. 

I've only shared the journey with Kenneth Folk as we worked togther on my path. After me describing to him on sensate level my experience and that moment after "What WAS That?" without really knowing what that was as in my case there was no aftershock, or joy or any speacial feeling except that surprised "What WAS That", and it happened while I was playing with my 3 year old son (he is almost 4 now), his answer was "Did you attain Stream Entry? I don't know." We spoke before that about experiences and that all experiences are just that, Experiences, so even attainments are experiences, Jhana states are just that, experiences, itch on the nose is just that, an experience.

He never said anyhting like well done that indeed was Stream Entry nor did he say opposing to it. The only time Kenneth EVER told me "thats great really good" was when I described at some stage my experience of Dissolution where I practice Noting Aloud and suddenly a round doughnut like dark cloud with nothing in its center, came out of the floor and would grow larger and then zap! would disappear and then come up again and same proccess for a while. So I decided at some stage to snap out of that and see what elese was going on in the awareness. He said here " Thats great" the fact that I've let go of it after investigating it and went to see if other stuff is also there rather than sit absorbed in that Jhanic/Samadhi/Concentration state. 

Is this info satifying? You can ask more if you feel like it. I personally dont have the need to talk about any of this unless it can be applied to someone elses experience here on DhO. I do have a desire to be of service but only there where I can offer some.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 1:42 PM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
What is it that makes you think that was a cessation? Did you have a door moment before it? What happened directly after it? How did it change your practice afterwards? How did it affect your daily life? Has it happened again? 

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 3:36 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Oh no Dhamma Police is here to interrogate me emoticon  just joking emoticon

First off my appologies to the OP for hijacking your thread emoticon then again this might very well be a good thing for your dilemmas about what Cessation is or isn't in people's subjective experiences.

1. Nothing made me think that this was Cessation when "somethings gone missing" and the "What WAS That" surprised question came about. I knew that such thing never happened to me before. It happened in our little forest where I was dragging my son who was sitting in his wooden car and I was his horsy. My hands behind my back holding tightly onto the rope, bent with body forwards with head/eyes looking into the ground before my feet and seeing the feet walking. I was not practicing at that very moment (I prefered to practice on the cushio or in my case on a chair, Freestyle Noting Aloud), I was just playing there with my son. Next thing I remember was a surprise and thought "What WAS That" (and here there was preassure on the WAS for some reason rather than What Was THAT). As any good meditator I immediatelly pulled out my Dhamma Tool Box and Set Mindfulness to the Fore to Notice if there are any feelings, sensations, ... there was no much effort here as I was in EQ at that time.

Nothing special except the sensations of walking, sensation of rope in my hands behind my back and that surprise and the "what Was that" still very much being there. The first concluding thoughts about it where "Was this the two dips in the outbreath as described by Ingram, but wait there was no two but rather just one time something utterly gone missing so it cant be that" and I certainly have no rememberance of the breath before it as I wasnt really practicing, I was dragging my boy's wooden car. I put a lid on it and continued playing with my 3 year old son keeping "one eye open" just in case something unusual comes about".


2. No, no Doors that Im aware off opened up but I know I was in the EQ stage at that time and in a very new territory where I experienced EQ as Status Quo and started feeling Bored with such state and was developing some sort of disenchantment with it which came as a surpirse really as I always believed EQ to be something very cool and special.

This was already close to 6 month of daily practice of all about 45-90 minutes once or twice a day depending on in which state I was.

One of the reasons I never assumed this was Fruition, was my belief that any such high attainments will maybe happen somewhere down the line after many years of meditaton, maybe 20, 30 years or more. I even entertained an idea that maybe it will happen to me in another life time if I put enough practice in this life and all that stuff (most of us have been there right? afterall most of believe/believed that we are Buddhists).
y MAIN GOAL for contacting Kenneth was to get done and done with this Dark Night stuff as I could not take it any longer. I did know from my previous experience that if I cling to the EQ I will be catapulted back into Re-observation and things might get yet even worse from the worse that already happened in my life and to those around me (family , friends ... ) so I knew I am not to cling to that darn thing! But I had NO IDEA nor a THOUGHT about what after that! No plan no notion.

I totally IGNORED what it meant to be done and done with Dark Night and EQ. I would never read Ingrams book passed my experience. Im a practical lad and that which makes no sense to me and is out of my understanding I dont read about or ponder on it. Its just my personality. Of course what else could it result in , really?! Lights Out, bye bye Dorothy emoticon 

After a few days I felt as if my practice was Reset, felt totally new; Mind Body, C&E, 3C's and I stopped as I didnt really know what to make out of this rather new Perception of the cycles. Immediately after that (day or two) I had my regular meeting with Kenneth and I explained him about my experiences as we always do and then he talks about it or else etc ... I can't recollect entirely how the conversation went but eventhough I never mentioned any Fruition to him nor did I have any notion that such experience of mine could be such a thing, Kenneth said to me at one stage something like "Did you attain to Stream Entry? I don't know." Before he said this he talked much about any experience being just that, an experience, like Jhana experience, attainment experience ( or lack thereof), itch on the nose experience is all but an experience worth of out attention and investigation. This is where I began to ponder into this "hm, why would Kenneth mention this, why would he even say such thing, whas that it???" I didnt go into it at all with him as our time was anyway up but now I was curious and I pulled out my copy of MCTB and read about details on Fruition and afterwards. Had no Doors, had it occur only once. Nah, it cant be that! Why would Kenneth even mention this as I never even thought of this to be it AT ALL. 


3. ... no door no after it, sorry. The only "after" was "What WAS That" after that "somethings gone missing"


4. As mentioned I had this new perception of my practice being restarted, fresh, new. Cant remember exactly how many more days I continued practicing but I do know that after reading Ingram saying that IF YOU ARE NOT READY TO GET STUCK IN ANOTHER DARK NIGHT then resolve to stay in Review. I did that but stapped gently out of the on cushio practice. I felt that efforting was not needed now.

5. this brings me to my life. I was unemployed for amost 9 years thanks to the Dark Night. I ve got this strong feeling to again mingle up with just normal everyday people and I found a very low paid job sorting out packages for a Postal Service. Fascinating observing the sensations and reactions in every day life with my work colegues and my son, my partner, my PTSD etc. The feeling "I came back to my Self" or "I came back home" is still there, almost to joyful tears in my eyes. 

Vibrations in form of waves coming up the body, washes of energy down the arms or legs, zaps of energy in my head, under the scull, cycling through the first 3 stages are apparent in my every day (please dont ask me about the details as Im already tired of all this writing for now emoticon ), effortless noticing of walking/sitting/watching,etc sensations while driving the car, writing this reply, working with my colegues, playing with my son etc etc etc ... very rich but normal experience). BTW, Im not officcially practicing just yet as Im not entirelly sure how to proceed. If to continue with the Maps Model or to leet go of that and do a more simple model. I will never be able to ingore the Map Model entirely as I am so grateful for it, for Ingram for Kenneth Folk and all those who kept it still alive.
But in case of dropping into another Dark Night I would without thinking twice arm my self with the Maps and Mahasi/Kenneth Noting and go to War with lots of Acceptance and Unbroken matter of fact Mindfullness.

EDIT; must add this one! My mind seems to be very much forgetful and not doing most of the paranoid things it used to do in the past; needing to know where my keys/wallet/iPhone are or checking 10 times if the house door really is locked for the night and all windows are really locked (yah, I blame my PTSD for it).

Ok, its starting to be late here and I feel tired, sleep time soon emoticon let me see what else you asked ... (scroll down) ...

6. Ok this one is easy and short emoticon No, it has not happen again, only once as described above.

Thats it for now. I wish you a good night (or good day depending on where on this spinning planet you are) emoticon  
Again I hope the OP can find something useful in all this rubbling of mine emoticon Take care.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 3:39 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Damn it Polly my tea has gone totally cold while writing this reply above emoticon you owe me one emoticon LOL Good night!

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 6:32 PM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Che, to answer your question:

Joy was after KKK. Also, first time, there was no Joy. More relief. 
Joy/Happiness happens nowdays.


To describe KKK: An in-breath comes in and mind moves towards cessation, then there's a "blip" at the end of the in breath lasting a fraction of a second, then there's a sense that peigeon landed (per the simile of Visuddhimagga described before), then there's sometimes some feeling of joy/happiness/relief/nourishment (only some of these feelings may be present or none). During the time of the sense that peigeon landed, and the feeling of joy/etc., there is the out-breath. Mind moves on to other tasks like noting, or wanting to experience cessation again or daily activities of life. What the "blip" is, I don't know.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/8/20 8:04 PM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Is this info satifying? You can ask more if you feel like it. 

Do you drink a lot of coffee? Reading your comments causes me to get winded. They generally seem sort of... frantic  emoticon

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 2:18 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Sorry about the tea, pal. emoticon

I'm sorry for hijacking the thread too, but I think it may at least partly be on topic, because yeah, there are many many phenomena that can be mistaken for a cessation before one has anything to compare with. Anything from going blank or dozing off to an A&P or shifting states of consciousness. Even shifts in perspectives can be interpreted by the brain as missing frames, at least in my experience. That answers the original question, and I think it is good to remember for all of us.

So, what you are saying is that there were no door moment, nothing in particular directly after the unknowing event with the world coming back into construction, no bliss waves, and no distinct review phase, and it never happened again?  Did you ever try to resolve to get "back" into review? That should be possible if you had SE. It might even be a good idea to do, if you can, because that might help you find a way forward. But seriously, I'm sorry, but I'm sceptical. I'm not in any position to diagnose you, but if it were me, based on what you have described, I would not assume that it was a cessation. A profound A&P can take away burdens in life too for quite some time in some cases. That has happened to me, at least. Dropping down to lower nanas can certainly happen without having had any cessation, especially if you stop practicing. The bursts of energy and vibrations and cycling through the lower nanas can happen pre-SE; my guess is that it's pretty common, although I don't have any statistics to support that. I have seen you giving enthusiastic advice to people on how to get to SE and what practice to choose, and you might want to lay low with that at least until you have had repeated fruitions and clear door moments. I know that it can be very tempting to share what one thinks has been helpful, and I have certainly done my share of too much too soon, but please be careful, both for your own sake and for others' sake. It might backfire. This is not intended as policing, and I wouldn't have the authority to do so. It's just friendly advice, for what it's worth. I hope this doesn't come through as too harsh.

It is wonderful to hear that you feel so much better and that your PTSD troubles you much less. That's great!

Very best wishes for your wellbeing and practice!

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 3:59 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I'm not native to English and the spell check ain't working for some reason. 

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 4:24 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Thanks for your reply Polly. Basically you say same/similar to what Ingram wrote in his book. 

I guess what can happen to many is to assume that the Map is the Territory when its more the other way around. 

Since Maps are not the Territory I can not know if I will indeed remain in the Review or will I get to AP and then I'm off again. As stated before I'm not in mood to do another Dark Night just. Gotta fix relationships with my partner and to explain her well that it's possible to "come back to one self" even if DN happens again. I need her to enjoy my presence again. I owe her this after she endured being beside me for almost a decade while I allowed so much bleed through. 

But yes you are totally right. It's good to lay low. I've learned this well back in my military days emoticon 

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 6:02 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Thanks for your answer Mike. 

Im not sure what that Pidgeon is nor what that blip is at the end of your outbreath. 

I hope some of the members that joined this thread might be of service. 
 

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 7:32 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Che, thanks for thinking! 

The blip is at the end of the in-breath, not out-breath. Now that I see what I wrote, I can see, there was cause for confusion.

Also, the time I got it during the 20-day retreat, when I was in what I think is equanimity, there was dukkha and mind found the blip as peaceful and settled. I'm unsure if there was anicca/anatta along with it, but I suspect, there were both present in some degrees.

Now in daily life, I can get to the blip through either anicca, dukkha, or anatta, and some times, anicca changes to dukkha leading to blip and all possible combinations can arise for me. There are times, when one changes to the second to the third leading to blip. There are times when few seem to be present at the same time. I have not tried to see exactly what is happening after a point.

At other times, I can get the blip just by diverting my mind towards cessation and the blip happens.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 8:00 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
My apologies Mike. I made a typo. It is clear in your post that you repeatedly say blip after In breath. 

I never experienced such blip. My practice was always rather clear apart from getting into a narrative and the realizing that, returning back to practice. 

Even when in the midst of Tsunami of a Dark Night  it was clear to me what was unfolding. It felt as a Witness observing all that bleedthrough yet falling short on finding the way to deal with it. Until I've started practicing Kenneth Folks "Freestyle Noting Aloud" and applying Acceptance as suggested by Ingram in his book. 

Maybe other members that joined this thread can help out make sense out of your experience?

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 8:17 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Polly could you point out which advice of mine was detrimental and of no benefit in those threads where I offered suggestions? That I would find very helpful. Thank you. 

Also wonder what your thoughts are on this;

Do you believe that Path attainments, multiple cessations, experience of Doors etc are necessary experiences for Awakening? 
Could they only be a part of Mastering the Stages/Paths of this Insight Map Model? Mastering not necessarily being Awakening or being only necessary if one would like to teach this Model. 

Also do you believe that all people must experience Cessation in the same way? I mean as desribed in the book by Ingram.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 11:34 AM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
I think the biggest risk of sharing too much too soon may often be the risk of consolidating a view for oneself that could affect one's own practice. When it comes to the advice that you have given to others I don't know whether they will turn out to be helpful or not. Do you? I have seen you tell people that they should change their practice in specific ways, and from what I read, you seemed to be very convinced and you haven't offered the caveat that you only think that you may have experienced cessation once, in a way that differs from the criteria in most aspects. I haven't seen anything in particular that I thought was harmful, just some very strong conviction with regard to the method that you have found to be most helpful to you. As others have argued for their own convictions, I wouldn't worry that much. I didn't mean to imply that you had caused harm. It's more the case that I have realized afterwards that I may have done so in my own enthusiasm and I wish I had realized that sooner. 

What I believe about these things doesn't really matter, as beliefs are just views. But don't you think that if you are to guide people towards a specific goal, it is an advantage if you can be certain that you have found your way to that specific goal yourself? And can you be certain, from what you have described here?

I'm sorry for hurting your feelings, if that's the case. As I said, I have certainly done my share of giving advice prematurely. That seems to be something that many of us go through. Personally I often enjoy your posts and your enthusiasm, which I find very relatable, and your kind tone. It may be the case that this advice that I gave you here was premature as well and that I'm only projecting, but it is the advice that I would have needed earlier on for myself. I'm not sure I would have been able to appreciate it, though. So if you think it's shitty, I respect that. I don't mean it to be shitty, but I get that it can be seen as such. 

For what it's worth, I think it is wise to take care of both yourself and your relationship and to remember to listen to your partner's needs the way you do. I believe many of us forget those aspects. 

All the best. 

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 11:42 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Ok thank you Polly (Linda) emoticon

All the best to you too and your family (I did poke my nose into your Journal today). Take care.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 12:16 PM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
Che Guebuddha:
Do you believe that Path attainments, multiple cessations, experience of Doors etc are necessary experiences for Awakening? 
Could they only be a part of Mastering the Stages/Paths of this Insight Map Model? Mastering not necessarily being Awakening or being only necessary if one would like to teach this Model. 

Also do you believe that all people must experience Cessation in the same way? I mean as desribed in the book by Ingram.


I’ll answer this, tentatively, since you asked, but my answers are only views and I may later have to let go of them.

I don’t think that multiple cessations are required for stream entry, but I think that they are in most cases necessary in order to get a relatively clear view of what happened (as clear as any view can get, as they are all limited). I believe that if we are to use a specific model in guiding others, the criteria of that model are pretty important to fulfill for ourselves. If we want to use a different model, it may be a good idea to be explicit about that, and also about one’s own critera and to what extent one fulfills them. I also think that the door moments are central in my own practice for sorting out what is what. I’m still working on figuring it out, though, as it isn’t always easy to distinguish what is what. I do believe that people’s experiences of cessations can differ, especially between traditions, because our concepts differ and concepts interact with how we perceive and interpret things. Still I am one of those people who do believe that all forms of awakening involve cessations with components that are described in the theravadan maps as door moments (or corresponding terms in pali and/or sanscrit) even in those traditions who use different maps. I believe that the theravadan maps are the most thorough maps that exist - and I have to confess that I mainly trust Daniel’s word there. I just haven’t heard anyone offer better arguments so far.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean when you say path attainments. I know from experience that stream entry (based on the criteria I mentioned, which may not be seen as enough in all traditions) is not enough. It changes things, but there is still a long way to go. Talking about it as four paths is one way to make sense of it. It seems to be many more insight cycles than four, though. Personally I currently find the four path model rather confusing. I just know that there are steps between stream entry and ”done”, and from where I stand, I cannot even imagine most of the steps.

---

Thankyou for your kindness! emoticon

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 2:08 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I just deleted my reply as I came to realise that we both are basically beating around the bush and none of this is really benefiting anyone.
My bad for asking more questions emoticon my deepest appologies, as answering does require energy which you could use for better things Im sure.



....
Che tunning out and laying low

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 4:08 PM as a reply to Che Guebuddha.
I put you in a very awkward position. I bow to how skillfully you deal with it. 

I'm trying to lay low as well and apparently I'm not doing very well. I do see the irony in it.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 4:13 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
If you keep posting to each other it will be hard to "lay low."

emoticon

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 4:50 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yup. Hence the irony. emoticon 

This makes me think of the children's book Ronia the Robber's Daughter by Astrid Lindgren. Ronia was often told to be careful not to jump into the so called hell gap, a deep chasm where the lightening had struck the robbers' fortress the night she was born. Ronia was very adamant to follow the advice, and therefore she diligently practiced jumping over the gap, because in her logic she found that she could only really be careful about not jumping into the gap in a situation when she was at risk of doing it. I find myself applying a similar logic now and then. 

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/9/20 11:51 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Hi Linda,

Thanks for answering the original question! Maybe I should state, more carefully, the original question, as I can see now, that the
intent is not entirely unclear.

1) I'm asking if there are phenomena which occur *specifically* at the end of the in-breath or are *rather prone to*
occuring at the  end of the in-breath which can be mistaken for  cessation.

Your answer does mention one of these: missing frames -- can easily happen whenever there is a shift in experience
from "one kind of thing" to "another kind of thing" in this case, from in-breath to out-breath

2) I'm asking about the dynamics of the mind of someone who is sitting in fruition for an
hour.

Maybe I'll break this down into various parts:Consider a person who has the capability of sitting in fruition
for an extended amount of time. Assume that they resolved that on a certain day, at a certain time,
for an hour starting at  that time, they will sit in fruition. Then, they do that.

Questions:

a) Does the breath stop for someone who is in fruition (as attained in the above way)
for the hour for that full hour?

b) If the breath does not stop, are they in fruition for the whole hour or only parts of the hour.
The motivation of this question is that fruition is supposed to occur at the end of the out breath.
However, if the breath does not stop, then, there will be an in breath during the hour, and the
question is if they are in fruition during that in breath too? If they are in fruition during that
in breath too, what does it mean to say that fruition occurs at the end of the out-breath? Does it
mean that fruition starts at the end of the out breath and then continues onto the in-breath?

c) If someone being in fruition for the hour does not necessarily mean that they are sitting in
fruition for the full hour but just that fruition occurs repeatedly without any further intentions
for that full hour (note that fruition is attained by the resolve carried out in the above mentioned
way),then what process are they going through during the rest of the time when they
are not sitting in fruition?

d) Assume that this person is able to get only momentary fruitions. Does it still make sense to
talk about being able to sit in fruition for an hour in the sense that they repeatedly attain fruition
during that hour without any further intentions?

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
2/10/20 1:29 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Hi Mike! 

1) I never thought of the shift between inbreath to outbreath as the kind of shift that would cause the shift in perspective that us experienced as a missing frame, but that is a very interesting hypothesis. I was thinking more generally of shifts between focuses and shifts between trying to be the doer and surrendering to awareness just happening on its own. It makes sense, though, that the the short gap inbetween inbreath and outbreath could be a common trigger for that. Thankyou!

2) I have been wondering, too. I hope someone can offer an answer. I have heard stories about medical staff believing someone was dead and monks or nuns having to convince them otherwise. I draw the conclusion that if such stories are true, there were no breathing or heartbeats. The explanation offered was that the body doesn't consume the oxygene while in that state - or non-state. But this is only hearsay and I cannot even remember who told it and about whom. 

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
3/12/20 10:49 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I think I got some insight into what I experienced here.

My guess is that it is a pure-awareness experience. What basically happens is that there is just pure awareness (kind of passive) or unblemished awareness, which rests inside the body. By extrapolation, this same awareness can be looking out into the world or listening or whatever. *So, I don't think there's cessation of consciousness.*

[[Please also see my posts what/who watches? and  Dzogchen/Vedanta/St. John of Cross where I came to this pure awareness experience via different routes]]


Though the understanding that I have about the state of pure awareness is that it is likely a state which can last ones life-time (unless maybe one goes into coma or something in which case I don't know what happens or if one gets massive brain damage in which case, again, I don't know what happens) but at the end of the day, it is just awareness, and it just passes away too (at death).

This is I think  a no-soul (meaning no eternal soul) insight (correct me if I'm wrong). Precisely speaking, I think it is an insight that pure awareness is not eternal soul. It is just awareness. This does not disprove the existence of another eternal soul hiding somewhere else but I've not found it. Further, I think, it is non-conceptual and not just intellectual (again, correct me if you think I'm wrong) **Now, assuming I'm right, how do I get from this unblemished awareness experience to cessation of consciousness (technically speaking, cessation of nama-rupa) which is Nibbana?**


All input appreciated, as always.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
3/12/20 10:08 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
From that state to impermanence door fruition, in my (limited!) experience, it seems to just happen very suddenly and as a complete surprise.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
3/12/20 10:30 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
OK, thanks! Hopefully, I'll also land there, in your words, suddenly and as a complete surprise emoticon


Mike.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
4/13/20 10:12 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.

I had posted these questions a month or two ago. Posting them again (with 2 additional questions and additional commentary added). Would be thankful for precise, to-the-point responses.

Consider a person who has the capability of sitting in fruition
for an extended amount of time. Assume that they resolved that on a certain day, at a certain time, for an hour starting at  that time, they will sit in fruition. Then, they do that. To make the question even more stark, imagine a person who is capable of sitting in fruition for an year and is doing that (if at all such a thing is possible), and now, in the questions below, replace one hour by one year.

Questions:

a) Does the breath stop for someone who is in fruition (as attained in the above way) for the hour for that full hour? 

b) If the breath does not stop, are they in fruition for the whole hour or only parts of the hour. The motivation of this question is that fruition is supposed to occur at the end of the out breath. However, if the breath does not stop, then, there will be an in breath during the hour, and the question is if they are in fruition during that in breath too? If they are in fruition during thatin breath too, what does it mean to say that fruition occurs at the end of the out-breath? Does itmean that fruition starts at the end of the out breath and then continues onto the in-breath?

c) If someone being in fruition for the hour does not necessarily mean that they are sitting in fruition for the full hour but just that fruition occurs repeatedly without any further intentions for that full hour (note that fruition is attained by the resolve carried out in the above mentioned way),then what process are they going through during the rest of the time when they  are not sitting in fruition?

d) Assume that this person is able to get only momentary fruitions. Does it still make sense to talk about being able to sit in fruition for an hour in the sense that they repeatedly attain fruition during that hour without any further intentions?

e) Materiality-Mentality are supposed to stop in subjective experience for the full hour. However, in objective experience, matter is supposed to function on it's own. In particular, protons, electrons, neutrons are still moving around (or do people believe here that protons, electrons, neutrons stop?). In the same vain, is the person still breathing during the full hour but in their subjective experience, there is no breath because they're in a state where they are "absorbed" in the Nibbana-dhatu and thus are not aware that they are breathing?

f) I'm quoting here from Ingram's book: Regarding fruition: "In this non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no awareness, no background, no foreground, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else." Reality stops cold and then reappears. If this is what happens, how does someone know that this is what actually happened and not some thing else?


How this relates to my practice (however, I'm interested in the above questionns both from a personal point of view and from an objective point of view -- it's fair enough to ask about the experience of fruition for a person who is sitting in that state for a long time):

I'd herald a guess that I've achieved to animittam cetosamadhi. I've also seen it as created, thus impermanent (per Cula-Sunnata sutta). I've gotten to animittam cetosamadhi in various ways: going up formless realms (or formed versions of these formless realms) as described in Culasunnata sutta, I've also got to it via Mahasi method, I've also got to it via some methods of Dzogchen. 

Beyond that, I'd like to herald a guess that I've achieved to states of non-duality/union with another and possibly with "God". I've also experienced turning everything over, and experiencing God, right at the center of my heart and this bringing a possibly fundamental shift where I want to live more in life with God's will (God here being created reality, not a creator -- just an experience, at the end of the day, right in the center of the heart).

There are other cessation like events which seem to happen at the end of in-breath: they seem to be either fruition-like events or union with God kind of events.

Regarding fruition, I have no idea.


RE: End of in-breath
Answer
4/13/20 10:49 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
I don't know the answers to any questions, but I have a question of my own for you:

Are you absolutely SURE that this event occurs at the end of the in-breath?
Are you sure that the mind has not instead synchronized with something else that is separate from the actual breath?

Again, I don't know anything. Just something I find interesting to investigate.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
4/13/20 11:32 AM as a reply to spatial.
Hi Spatial, thanks for writing. I do synchronize/unite with some thing else perceived as permanent (God/Nibbana?), but that synchronization seems to happen at the end of the in-breath (or starts slightly before the end of the in-breath and ends with the end of the in-breath).

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
4/14/20 8:40 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:
Hi Spatial, thanks for writing. I do synchronize/unite with some thing else perceived as permanent (God/Nibbana?), but that synchronization seems to happen at the end of the in-breath (or starts slightly before the end of the in-breath and ends with the end of the in-breath).


During my sit this morning, I had three types of events which I would previously have labeled as "fruition",  but now you've got me thinking.

The first happened at the end of the in-breath. At least, I think it did. I noticed myself exhaling strongly afterward, so that's what caught my attention. But, this event only happened once (I think), so I'm not sure.

The second type of event happened at the "apparent" end of the out-breath. I say that because after the event, I continued exhaling, until I reached something that felt more like the real end. This happened several times.

The third type of event happened at what is more like the real end of the out-breath. I noticed myself inhaling coming out of it. This was less dramatic than the other two, more like a blip than an event. Maybe this is the only real fruition. It also happened several times.

Another thing I noticed a lot (which is what prompted my question to you), is that the mind frequently gets out of sync with the breath. It can really feel like I'm still inhaling when I'm not, and still exhaling when I'm not. Sometimes I close my glottis just to check, and it can be surprising.

Thanks for giving me more stuff to pay attention to!

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
4/14/20 9:29 AM as a reply to spatial.
Hi there Spatial, I agree about mind tuning out of sync with breath. All difficult to say with 100% surety -- all I can say is that things seem to happen during + end of the in-breath -- in my case, that is ...

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
4/14/20 9:47 AM as a reply to spatial.
But let me ask you -- how do you know that this thing that happens at the end of the out-breath is indeed a fruition -- the description is in terms of basically the presence of nothing (I posted from Ingram's book his definition of fruition in a previous post where I asked the 6 questions 1 or 2 days ago I think)  -- how can you be sure that such an event happened (meaning, that it was not some thing else ...) ? 

Don't mean to be a pain-in-the-ass -- just trying to learn ...

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
4/16/20 10:02 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
Mike Smirnoff:


Don't mean to be a pain-in-the-ass -- just trying to learn ...


Mikey! Pain-in-the-ass IS the path unfolding.

And fruition: look again at the conversation on this thread, amigo. If that ain't fruit, what is? If that ain't sweet, what is?

not rhetorical questions, now that i think of it. oops. back to the mat, where i find my own comfort BEING ONE WITH my pain in the ass, even as i am most lost, ever-returning to the refreshment of that fountain.

RE: End of in-breath
Answer
4/23/20 7:12 AM as a reply to Mike Smirnoff.
[quote=
]

Mike Smirnoff:

Question: According to Ingram, Fruition only occurs at the end of out-breath. Anything these Saints have to say about that?


Tim:

Mike, fuck the saints, really. It does happen on the out breath. Otherwise, it would be too much work.


dear mike, aka "dharma pit bull,"

Flinging my 2c (as the non-entity formerly known as agnostic puts it) in here, with a lift from another thread, just to get this shit on record.