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Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?

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Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/1/20 5:25 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Lewis James 2/29/20 10:06 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 2/29/20 10:46 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 2/29/20 11:56 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 2/29/20 1:28 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Siavash 2/29/20 1:48 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 2/29/20 2:13 PM
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RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 2/29/20 2:27 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Jim Smith 2/29/20 8:03 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/1/20 3:36 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/1/20 4:31 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/1/20 7:43 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 2/29/20 2:34 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 2/29/20 11:57 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Stirling Campbell 2/29/20 5:18 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Jim Smith 2/29/20 7:52 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/1/20 9:44 AM
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RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? John W 3/2/20 12:49 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Matthew 3/2/20 12:55 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Milo 2/29/20 8:21 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Not two, not one 2/29/20 8:36 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Milo 2/29/20 8:50 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/29/20 9:58 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Stirling Campbell 3/1/20 12:44 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/1/20 5:26 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Mista Tibbs 3/1/20 10:34 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Matthew 3/1/20 9:41 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/2/20 2:53 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/2/20 5:21 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/2/20 9:49 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/2/20 10:20 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/2/20 11:44 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/2/20 12:15 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/2/20 3:38 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Not two, not one 3/2/20 4:46 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/2/20 4:50 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/2/20 7:33 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/2/20 7:16 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/3/20 12:52 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/3/20 11:20 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/3/20 12:11 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/13/20 4:29 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/17/20 2:19 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/17/20 4:20 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/19/20 2:34 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/19/20 2:50 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/19/20 3:31 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/20/20 1:10 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/20/20 3:06 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/20/20 3:22 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/20/20 7:31 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/20/20 9:01 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/21/20 3:48 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/20/20 1:56 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/20/20 7:16 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/20/20 7:44 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/20/20 3:12 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/3/20 12:28 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/3/20 1:07 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Not two, not one 3/3/20 2:05 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/3/20 2:50 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/3/20 4:50 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/3/20 4:12 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Not two, not one 3/3/20 7:03 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/3/20 7:44 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/3/20 4:11 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/3/20 4:44 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/3/20 5:24 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/4/20 1:11 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/4/20 11:15 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/5/20 12:10 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/4/20 7:59 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/4/20 8:37 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/4/20 9:15 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/4/20 10:40 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/4/20 11:37 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/4/20 12:58 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/4/20 1:07 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/4/20 1:15 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/4/20 4:49 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/4/20 6:03 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/5/20 9:22 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/5/20 11:13 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/5/20 2:22 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/5/20 2:29 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/5/20 3:22 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/5/20 3:42 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/5/20 6:13 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/6/20 6:38 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/6/20 7:17 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/6/20 7:32 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/6/20 7:58 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/6/20 8:04 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/6/20 8:09 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/6/20 8:14 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/8/20 1:35 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Not two, not one 3/8/20 1:41 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/9/20 10:32 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/9/20 11:41 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Not two, not one 3/9/20 1:38 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/9/20 2:15 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/9/20 2:42 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/9/20 2:54 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Matthew 3/9/20 4:09 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/9/20 5:28 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/9/20 5:49 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/6/20 1:11 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/7/20 4:35 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/7/20 7:31 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/7/20 7:44 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/7/20 11:55 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? T 3/7/20 12:09 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/8/20 1:44 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/9/20 10:23 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/8/20 1:24 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/5/20 2:39 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/8/20 1:07 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/4/20 11:31 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/5/20 12:06 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/5/20 12:09 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/5/20 12:50 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/5/20 8:00 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/5/20 4:14 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/8/20 1:16 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/5/20 7:56 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/10/20 9:42 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Not two, not one 3/4/20 1:19 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/4/20 2:43 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Matthew 3/4/20 3:48 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/4/20 4:12 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/4/20 11:13 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? John W 3/2/20 12:51 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Lewis James 3/2/20 6:13 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/2/20 6:51 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Matthew 3/2/20 12:54 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/2/20 1:52 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? John W 3/2/20 2:14 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/2/20 6:38 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/2/20 2:44 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Kim Katami 3/2/20 2:58 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Steve James 3/3/20 6:45 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/3/20 7:30 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Papa Che Dusko 3/3/20 9:37 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Matthew 3/3/20 11:33 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/3/20 11:58 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/2/20 2:40 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Matthew 3/2/20 4:14 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/2/20 7:27 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/2/20 6:30 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/2/20 6:50 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/3/20 12:25 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/2/20 6:25 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? John W 3/2/20 7:04 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/2/20 7:53 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? John W 3/2/20 8:41 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Buddhamma 3/6/20 2:29 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/7/20 6:49 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/8/20 1:28 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/7/20 8:24 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/9/20 10:19 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/10/20 12:57 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/10/20 1:17 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 2:52 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/10/20 2:14 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/10/20 3:00 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/10/20 4:20 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/10/20 4:26 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/10/20 4:32 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 5:26 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/10/20 5:21 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/11/20 5:04 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/11/20 4:22 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/11/20 5:39 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Ni Nurta 3/11/20 7:01 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 5:30 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 5:28 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 5:21 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 8:20 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 2:06 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/13/20 4:06 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 4:32 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 2:50 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Chris Marti 3/13/20 8:02 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 8:17 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/13/20 4:10 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/13/20 1:32 AM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/14/20 6:48 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 3/15/20 3:15 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/16/20 7:23 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 5:16 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 4:59 PM
RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism? terry 3/12/20 3:13 PM
Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 5:25 PM
Hi all,

Here's something interesting about well known buddhists such as Shinzen Young, Jack Kornfield, Stephen Batchelor and Culadasa John Yates and their connection or view about shamanism. I'm not pasting the text here because of problems with this forum software.

Read the rest here: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/02/why-do-buddhists-turn-to-shamanism.html

Cheers,

Kim

Edit: Adding to the list...
  • Vanja Palmers (soto zen buddhist) says that after decades of zen-meditation he wanted to repeat impressive experience he had as a teenager on LSD: https://youtu.be/gsJ7Z_t5H_o?t=347
  • Vincent Horn, How Psychedelics Improve Your Meditation (And Much More…). "...He found that psychedelics could be used in a similar way to meditation, in order to explore the mind and existence. By setting an intention, and creating an environment similar to meditation, he found he learned some things through psychedelics that his meditative practice hadn’t.Vince says that the visual experience of psychedelics was very different to that of meditation. Psychedelics allowed him to feel connected to his human ancestry, and gave him an ego death experience that shook him more fundamentally than any ego death he’d experienced with meditation. He warns, however, about the power of psychedelics – one experience made him “go crazy” for several days. He would slap a warning label on both psychedelics and meditation, describing them both as trial by fire...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGA7L1TH1Gc
  • Brad Warner critisizes psychedelic buddhism and Vincent Horn based on buddhist precepts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZysiPbe8ErY


RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 10:06 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
One thing to note is that Shinzen started out in the Shingon tradition in Japan, so he does have experience of pretty hardcore Vajrayana practice, and nonetheless pursues shamanism.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 10:46 AM as a reply to Lewis James.
That's right. I think Shinzen is actually his Shingon-ordination name.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 11:56 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I'm not pasting the text here because of problems with this forum software.

What problems?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 11:57 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim,

What, in your opinion, is the difference between Buddhism and shamanism?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 1:28 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I'm not pasting the text here because of problems with this forum software.
What problems?
1. Copy-paste usually doesn't work and if it does, 2. stylization of the text is lost, it just becomes one big block of text without spaces or paragraphs. Has always been like this for me and I know I'm not the only one. It's a really bad choice for forum software. Changing profile photos or editing one's profile data doesn't seem to work properly either.

Chris Marti:
Kim,

What, in your opinion, is the difference between Buddhism and shamanism?

Buddhism makes the distinct point of selflessness and further, emptiness, and offers practices to realise it. Shamanism, while making use of substances and heavy practices, doesn't, so the whole thing becomes sort of a egotrip, whether in good or bad. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 1:48 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
1. Copy-paste usually doesn't work and if it does, 2. stylization of the text is lost, it just becomes one big block of text without spaces or paragraphs. Has always been like this for me and I know I'm not the only one.


Instead of using Ctrl/Cmd+V for pasting, you can right click on the editor and click paste menu, then in the next dialoge, right click again and select Paste and Match Style, instead of Paste. That'll fix the problem.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 2:00 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Chris Marti:
1. Copy-paste usually doesn't work and if it does, 2. stylization of the text is lost, it just becomes one big block of text without spaces or paragraphs. Has always been like this for me and I know I'm not the only one. It's a really bad choice for forum software. Changing profile photos or editing one's profile data doesn't seem to work properly either.

In the past back when this site had wood-orange colors everything worked as it should. Then Daniel changed Liferay (or however it is called) to new version and since then text input is completely broken. Changing avatar requires trying multiple times and some "Wiki" pages are completely lost. I also think old layout was much better than this generic one.

Buddhism makes the distinct point of selflessness and further, emptiness, and offers practices to realise it. Shamanism, while making use of substances and heavy practices, doesn't, so the whole thing becomes sort of a egotrip, whether in good or bad. 

I remember watching video of Shinzen being asked question (or just talking about this topic) about having some mind blowing extraordinary experiences and he said that he did not have anything remarkable and claimed he is ok with that but at the same time his face looked just like someone who is definitely not ok with that. I guess he turned to shamanism because he actually wanted all those mind blowing experiences emoticon

And this is probably why buddhists turn to shamanism: to get fancy experiences which they lack doing just meditation.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 2:13 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Instead of using Ctrl/Cmd+V for pasting, you can right click on the editor and click paste menu, then in the next dialoge, right click again and select Paste and Match Style, instead of Paste. That'll fix the problem.

Yes - it's about using the forum commands properly. If done right it'll work just fine. The best course is to use the WYSIWIG editor commands. Keep in mind that you're editing HTML using a menu of commands. This is not Microsoft Word.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 7:43 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Buddhism makes the distinct point of selflessness ...

If I may suggest a correction here -- Buddhism makes the point that the self is constructed, not of "selflessness." Maybe this a language difference but it leads to a difference in meaning, one being incorrect, the other correct.

I'm pretty sure a lot of Buddhists drink alcohol. That doesn't make them shamanists, does it? And I'm not sure being a purist and denying other types of spirituality makes a lot of sense. To each his own path. Who cares?



RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 2:27 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:

I remember watching video of Shinzen being asked question (or just talking about this topic) about having some mind blowing extraordinary experiences and he said that he did not have anything remarkable and claimed he is ok with that but at the same time his face looked just like someone who is definitely not ok with that. I guess he turned to shamanism because he actually wanted all those mind blowing experiences emoticon

And this is probably why buddhists turn to shamanism: to get fancy experiences which they lack doing just meditation.

He has discussed his experiences, although superficially, many times over the years.

Fancy experiences or, I would say, visions beyond the usual, is something a lot of people on tantric retreats that have a lot of chanting, have. It is very common to see buddhas, gurus, pure lands, understand wheel of life through visionary experience, see past lives etc etc when you chant a lot, without any drugs or psychedelics. In fact, if one chants in one's daily practice, it is common for practitioners to develop a visionary sense, or see visions in one's daily life. These are not samsaric visions, like it often is the case with shamanism, based on the accounts I've read, but pure appearances, seeing buddhas in the midst of samsara. This is quite uncommon.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 2:34 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

I'm pretty sure a lot of Buddhists drink alcohol. That doesn't make them shamanists, does it? And I'm not sure being a purist and denying other types of spirituality makes a lot of sense. To each his own path. Who cares?



I found the reference to Batchelor from Brad Warner's vlog: https://youtu.be/w3_twnFrsbk
He makes the point, which I think is correct, that it's not OK for a buddhist to enhance or better his or her buddhist practice with substances. Recreational use of alcohol or weed is different from this.

Having said that I don't have a problem with folks mixing stuff. Just can't help thinking that all these things are already included in buddhism itself, though not perhaps in the vehicle one is familiar with.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 5:18 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Without delving too far into cliches I think there is something very vajrajana about tackling appearances and reality this way, whether consciously or inadvertently. My experience, which is far more classic Western psychedelic culture style with guides and study groups than shamanic exactly, was very preparatory for Stream Entry, IMHO. Breaking down reality a bit, even with experiences (vs. insights) made it easier to understand what was going on later. 

I think people probably have "near misses" all of the time in psychedelic experiences, and probably dismiss insight as the drug talking, instead of actually seeing what is obviously right in front of them - though this is true to some degree in normal waking life too. Post Stream Entry "path" terrain becomes increasingly psychedelic in my experience, which suggests to me that psychedelic experience, while probably tangential, is at least related in some sense. The breakdown of time, space and self are what many of us are looking carefuly into after all (whether you realize it or not), and are, of course, part and parcel part of the psychedelic experience.

Buddhism in all of its guises is ONE way to insight - but it is good to remember that there are plenty who never have contact with it and find it just the same.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 7:52 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Hi all,

Here's something interesting about well known buddhists such as Shinzen Young, Jack Kornfield, Stephen Batchelor and Culadasa John Yates and their connection or view about shamanism. I'm not pasting the text here because of problems with this forum software.

Read the rest here: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/02/why-do-buddhists-turn-to-shamanism.html

Cheers,

Kim



(I always click the Source button before pasting on this forum. Then after pasting, I click Source again so I can use the formating buttons. My biggest complaint about the forum is that I can only get the search capability to work on titles not the content of the posts. My favorite thing about this web site is that doesn't have alert notifications - those are designed to cause compulsive use of the web sites and apps.)

I am surprised that Buddhists would turn to drugs to have mystical experiences.

http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2015/02/joy-during-meditation.html#joy_trip

Leigh Brasington described a more advanced state on a youtube video. At 42:47 he says, "It was my birthday. ... That was about the best birthday present I ever had. ... I never saw anything this good on acid. ... It was just like wow! This was amazing."

...
But this type of serenity meditation creates a feedback loop causing the brain to release endorphins, serotonin and dopamine.

It really is like a drug trip, maybe not a psychedelic trip but it's not normal meditation. Every breath you take is like a hit from a bong, but there's no bong. And it is hugely spiritual. It doesn't require super intense concentration so I think most people could learn to do it.

...

And it doesn't cause vomiting or diarrhea like Ayahuasca does. It's 100% free. And as far as I know it's legal everywhere.



I got involved in Spiritualism after I took the 5 precepts. Spiritualists don't need drugs to communicate with the dead.
http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/psi_experience

I have no theoretical objection to experimentation with drugs - by individuals seeking experiences, or by doctors and scientists doing research. But for practical reasons I think it is a big mistake to use illegal drugs because the drug gangs have really bad karma. They are often involved in other crimes like forced prostitution of women and children, subverting governments, and pushing addictive drugs that ruin countless lives. I don't want to support those activities with my patronage. Also when you buy illegal drugs sometimes they have other drugs mixed in that you don't know about which can have effects you don't want. Also with drugs, in some cases just one or a few doses can have life changing effects. Sometimes theses are good effects, sometimes they are bad effects. So it is really an unnecessary and dangerous gamble in my opinion.. And the people I've known who tried to get me to use illegal drugs or pressured me to use any other type of intoxicating substance were people I would have been better off never having met. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 8:03 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:

I remember watching video of Shinzen being asked question (or just talking about this topic) about having some mind blowing extraordinary experiences and he said that he did not have anything remarkable and claimed he is ok with that but at the same time his face looked just like someone who is definitely not ok with that. 

I have sometimes suspected that all the hype about non-attachment is a lot of baloney. They might be non attached to the fact that they still have attachments ... but they still have attachments. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 8:21 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Not trying to put anyone's practice down here, but IMHO it's the same reason we practitioners do other things that are less than skillful practice like drinking, drugs, etc. The Buddhist path is better than torturing yourself with extreme ascetiscism, but it is still hard. It takes effort, and time, and can be a slog in places - especially to integrate insights into baseline daily life. Sometimes we get lazy or burnt out or busy or stuck or frustrated or disillusioned with what we are or aren't getting and we just want a quick fix escape from our samsaric problems for a while. Sometimes we feel there must be some kind of shortcut. So far in my experience that always ends up being a temporary fix at best.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 8:36 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Hi all,

Here's something interesting about well known buddhists such as Shinzen Young, Jack Kornfield, Stephen Batchelor and Culadasa John Yates and their connection or view about shamanism. I'm not pasting the text here because of problems with this forum software.

Read the rest here: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/02/why-do-buddhists-turn-to-shamanism.html

Cheers,

Kim

So here is a hypothesis for you Kim. Western buddhism tends to be rationalist - it often rejects the religious or mythical components of the dharma. This is also, of course, a rejection of metaphors used by the subconscious to make sense of the world. Unfortunately, if you repress the subconscious, it tends to pop out in strange ways, to demand attention and generally derail your life.

Thus, shamanism, formal magic, occult, mystical jhanas, dream analysis, fire kasina visualisations, communication with mahasiddhis and the like are a way of restoring balance. A way of getting back in touch with the non-rational world of subconscious metaphors, a way of ensuring that the whole being, conscious and subconscious, is operating together harmoniously. It brings psychic balance after excessive <bounded> rationality is developed in the service of the dharma, with the subconscious repressed.

So anything that unwinds subconscious repression, and enourages balance and individuation of the whole pysche, has to be good. We all need a healthy mythic life as well as a healthy conscious life.

Strict pragmatic dharma may be missing that one component - the bringing to the fore of the mythic subconcious, and integration of the whole personality ...  

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 8:50 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Agree that is an element of it as well. I think there is self selection in the West toward pretty hardened materialists and those who've had bad experiences with theism, so we are suprised when we encounter strong mystical experiences. It's like being told you're allergic to peanut butter through your childhood and then discovering you're not as an adult - and it turns out peanut butter tastes real good damn it emoticon.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
2/29/20 9:58 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
I'm glad you put into words what I was thinking but couldn't formulate, curious. I believe that human beings have an inherent need for some sort of symbolic plane, because that's an important part of how we process things. It's how we make sense of the world and also how we create it. Symbols and archetypes and metaphors are sort of our mother tongue.

As for Shinzen Young lacking mindblowing experiences, I seriously doubt it. I have watched hundreds of videos with him and it's pretty clear that he doesn't need to turn to drugs to have psychedelic experiences (even though he has a background of using such drugs). Maybe he just takes an interest in exploring the symbolic plane. And why not? 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 3:36 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
I have sometimes suspected that all the hype about non-attachment is a lot of baloney. They might be non attached to the fact that they still have attachments ... but they still have attachments. 
No matter how many hours one spends on cushion a man is still a man. Dog, even one who meditated a lot, when poked hard and long enough it will bite you. Same is with a meditating man and all of its characteristics which meditation is supposeldy removing.

It is imho much better to not really assume complete ellimination of things like attachment or make such ellimination a practice goal and instead be glad that any reduction of attachment happened when it happens and carry on. This approach saves own disappointment and that of other people who led by ignorant claims notice attachment not being completely destroyed will feel cheated.

But of course to sell something to largest audience it is best to use flashy colors and big banners of incredible feats and attainments. If monks were more honest then they would starve as no one would understand what they are even saying and people would instead go with their food and gold to those who claim bullshit.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 4:31 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:

It is imho much better to not really assume complete ellimination of things like attachment or make such ellimination a practice goal and instead be glad that any reduction of attachment happened when it happens and carry on. This approach saves own disappointment and that of other people who led by ignorant claims notice attachment not being completely destroyed will feel cheated.


Well put!

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 9:44 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
But for practical reasons I think it is a big mistake to use illegal drugs because the drug gangs have really bad karma. They are often involved in other crimes like forced prostitution of women and children, subverting governments, and pushing addictive drugs that ruin countless lives.

Yeah, those peyote button gangs are really vicious  emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 9:57 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
But for practical reasons I think it is a big mistake to use illegal drugs because the drug gangs have really bad karma. They are often involved in other crimes like forced prostitution of women and children, subverting governments, and pushing addictive drugs that ruin countless lives.

Yeah, those peyote button gangs are really vicious  emoticon

If people you loved were fucked over by those turds, you would know it is not something to joke about.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 10:34 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Why anyone would do anything is an enigma. This is all one kind of desire. Buddhism is key in self-realization but for example, if the intent is to "warg" into an animal, these practices cannot help you. Buddhism is a narrow scope in terms of exploring consciousness. 

Loving what Ni Nurta said: "No matter how many hours one spends on the cushion, a man is still a man"

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 10:46 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
If people you loved were fucked over by those turds, you would know it is not something to joke about.

I guess the nuance was lost on you, Jim. My point was to distinguish between the drug lords and violent gangs you were referring to (those who are typically in the heroin, cocaine and other opioids "business") and the kind of folks who typically take hallucinogens like peyote and mushrooms. Some hallucinogens are becoming mainstream. Marijuana is legal in a bunch of states. Mushrooms are now legal in a few municipalities.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 12:44 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:

So here is a hypothesis for you Kim. Western buddhism tends to be rationalist - it often rejects the religious or mythical components of the dharma. This is also, of course, a rejection of metaphors used by the subconscious to make sense of the world. Unfortunately, if you repress the subconscious, it tends to pop out in strange ways, to demand attention and generally derail your life.

Great stuff.

The eyes are not windows onto a conventionally existent reality, they are WINDOWS into mind.  If you want to know what your karma is like, look around you. Appearances are invitations to inquiry, and what needs to be examined arises when it is time. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 5:26 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Edit: Adding to the list...
  • Vanja Palmers (soto zen buddhist) says that after decades of zen-meditation he wanted to
    repeat impressive experience he had as a teenager on LSD: https://youtu.be/gsJ7Z_t5H_o?t=347
  • Vincent Horn, How Psychedelics Improve Your Meditation (And Much More…).
    "...He found that psychedelics could be used in a similar way to
    meditation, in order to explore the mind and existence. By setting an
    intention, and creating an environment similar to meditation, he found
    he learned some things through psychedelics that his meditative practice
    hadn’t.Vince says that the visual experience of psychedelics was very
    different to that of meditation. Psychedelics allowed him to feel
    connected to his human ancestry, and gave him an ego death experience
    that shook him more fundamentally than any ego death he’d experienced
    with meditation. He warns, however, about the power of psychedelics –
    one experience made him “go crazy” for several days. He would slap a
    warning label on both psychedelics and meditation, describing them both as trial by fire...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGA7L1TH1Gc
  • Brad Warner critisizes psychedelic buddhism and Vincent Horn based on buddhist precepts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZysiPbe8ErY

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/1/20 9:41 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
This convo is framed as comparing non-Buddhist shamanic traditions to the Vajrayana, saying “why not just use the shamanism we (Buddhists) already have?” So let’s take a look at that for a sec.

Buddhist Tantra is two things: Buddhist and Tantric. Put simply, it is Buddhist because it has the view of emptiness - that identity is a construction based on context and habit, not a fixed thing inside of anything. It is Tantric because it uses that view of emptiness as a way to expand limited/limiting identities, to view the world beyond those habitual patterns. 

Shamanism is similar to the Tantric half of that equation. It is a set of practices meant to expand one’s mode of perception to see outside the limited/limiting constraints we usually have, to interact with a perceived world beyond them. 

So, what makes the Vajrayana special is not its shamanism, but its Buddhism. It is essentially shamanism + emptiness. If you bring that view of emptiness to any shamanism, then, it will have all the parts needed. Since this view is the natural result of realization, a highly realized Buddhist practitioner doing non-Buddhist shamanic practices seems fine to me, and not necessarily a regression. It will no longer be “samsaric” for them, personally, because the impulse to reify those experiences is gone. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 2:53 AM as a reply to Matthew.
That's a good point Matthew. I'd add that view is essential, though. I guess I have to buy Batchelor's book and see what he has gotten out of his use of psychedelics but without bodhicitta buddhist practice is necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still limited in scope.

I don't blame these people that they want to have visions, actually I can understand it very well. They must be intuiting that whatever they've experienced in their form of meditation, just isn't hitting some of the sweetspots. Personally to me the idea of having to use an external substance to hit those sweetspots is strange, though.

To take one's practice to a "new level" and to have "visions", all one needs to do is to generate and access the world of bodhicitta. That seems to be the missing component with every teacher/teaching mentioned.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 6:13 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
This seems to be a bit of black-and-white thinking to me.

"I tried some psychedelic cactus once in ceremony and it didn't do anything, therefore Vajrayana Buddhism must be the only thing worth pursuing in this life" sounds like quite a dogmatic line. Sounds a bit like the myth of Ram Dass' teacher taking a huge amount of acid and it not working. I don't buy it. Meditation experiences can be intense and psychedelic, but a strong dose of DMT is going to blow anybody's socks off.

Tantric Buddhism came from the innovation of experimenting with the culture and modes of the time. This isn't much different.

Yes, meditation insight ultimately transcends any psychedelic experience, because it's an experience, but that doesn't make them completely worthless for spiritual practice.

There's a danger and risk involved, but there is with Vajrayana Buddhism too (lots of stories about people getting schizophrenic diagnoses after practicing intense visualisation techniques, but I guess it's not been proven to be a causal link...)

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 6:51 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I guess I have to buy Batchelor's book and see what he has gotten out of his use of psychedelics but without bodhicitta buddhist practice is necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still limited in scope.

Kim, what does this mean?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 9:49 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

Yes it is. I wrote that bit when I was in a very unhappy place in my life, when I could have had use for grosser form of happiness. And I did, actually, do non-buddhist practice for a while back then.

Lewis James:
This seems to be a bit of black-and-white thinking to me.

"I tried some psychedelic cactus once in ceremony and it didn't do  anything, therefore Vajrayana Buddhism must be the only thing worth  pursuing in this life" sounds like quite a dogmatic line. Sounds a bit like the myth of Ram Dass' teacher taking a huge amount of acid and it  not working. I don't buy it. Meditation experiences can be intense and psychedelic, but a strong dose of DMT is going to blow anybody's socks off.

Tantric Buddhism came from the innovation of experimenting with the culture and modes of the time. This isn't much different.

Yes, meditation insight ultimately transcends any psychedelic experience, because it's an experience, but that doesn't make them completely worthless for spiritual practice.

There's a danger and risk involved, but there is with Vajrayana Buddhism too (lots of stories about people getting schizophrenic diagnoses after practicing intense visualisation techniques, but I guess it's not been proven to be a
causal link...)

Lewis. That is not my narrative. I might try psychedelics again (probably not) but my first time, like I said, did nothing. No nausea, either. I'm obviously not saying that shamanism or psychedelics is nonsense. In fact, some shamanists like Harner have beautiful presence and clearly an awakened feel to them. The medicine man who I met didn't have awakened feel but I'm sure he can still benefit many people. Also, it needs to be remembered that shamanism which is not limited to the use of psychedelics, has healed and brought some sort of spiritual benefits for the ancestry of the whole mankind. There must be something there. The point of this thread is to question why all these buddhists turn to shamanistic practices and/or psychedelics.

Tantric buddhism originates first and foremost from pure visions. Experimentation comes far second. There's a big difference between the two. I am doubtful these folks will come up with something even nearly as beneficial by combining their view of lower vehicles of buddhism with psychedelic experiences but if they do, good for them! There is also the option that these teachers have bad and harmful influence on their followers and actually lead them away from their buddhanature. I'm still in the middle of listening to that Vince Horn's interview but that fellow seems to have completely lost his track, if you ask me.

There are problems in vajrayana too, of course, but folks coming up with mental illnesses (tapping those bits in their karmic body) is actually not that common (because that kind of karma is not that common). When it comes to visions and blow your socks off type experiences, that is definitely what comes with tantric practice. Having said that, if you wish to use psychedelics instead, fine with me.

Chris Marti:
I guess I have to buy Batchelor's book and see what he has gotten out of
his use of psychedelics but without bodhicitta buddhist practice is
necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a
time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these
folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still
limited in scope.
Kim, what does this mean?

View of the vehicle sets the course for one's practice. None of the mentioned teachers are practicing mahayanis, so what I am speculating is what kind of stuff they'll come up with their findings, perhaps something like tantric theravada, whatever that might mean.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 10:20 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I'm glad to hear that you feel better now. 

I don't understand this need (?) to compare paths and argue that some are better/higher than others. What's the purpose of that? 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 11:44 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm glad to hear that you feel better now. 

I don't understand this need (?) to compare paths and argue that some are better/higher than others. What's the purpose of that? 

Hey Linda,

Ha. I think many here don't understand it. There used to be a lot more curiosity and openness about practices here. Now, for several years this has been mostly MCTB-forum, without much discussion about other types of practice and paths, (and even reg. MCTB, the discussion seem to have lost most of the depth).

To compare paths is an age old thing. It's good and healthy. And having said that, arhats aren't buddhas. Actually far from it. I respect folks aiming for arhathood, such as the one Ingram says to have attained. But, if you ask me, there's more, a lot more. I say that with the kind of pragmatic muscle this place used to have.

With love and respect emoticonemoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 12:15 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I respect folks aiming for arhathood, such as the one Ingram says to have attained. But, if you ask me, there's more, a lot more. I say that with the kind of pragmatic muscle this place used to have.

At various times this place also used to be a shit show. It all depends on what you're looking for, what you expect and frankly, what you put into it.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 12:49 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
There are a few towns in Oaxaca, Mexico where magic mushrooms grow naturally, the entire town picks them off the ground and eats them (even the kids).
You can buy them from any local "shaman" (lineage may be questionable) and walk around the beautiful countryside without any fear of danger or without any fear that you are contributing to some criminal organization.
It is very safe there, much less dangerous than most US cities. There is no cartel activity that I am aware of (maybe in some of the bigger cities).
For example, NYC, which is one of the safer US major cities, is way more dangerous than many parts of Mexico according to this site:

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Mexico&city1=New+York%2C+NY&city2=Oaxaca+de+Juarez&tracking=getDispatchComparison

Another example is the various ayahuasca retreats and things like that what are popping up everywhere which are designed to treat depression and PTSD. They have nothing to do with cartels or organized crime.
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater like that I think could perpetuate the violent forces as much as buying a gram of cocaine from a cartel member can, we really can't know the full causes and conditions.




Anyway to chime in here, I would agree that Buddhism does have its own form of shamanistic practices, it's always been infused with some Hindu traditions
and whatever native religious traditions were in place, for example the Bön religions of Tibet.
I'm thinking of things like the Tibetan state oracles and dharma protectors as vestiges of the Bön traditions.

As to why people 'turn' to shamanism, I'm not sure if it's as much people turning 'away from' Buddhism so to speak. At least, I have not experienced that.
If you are interested in Buddhism and meditation there's just a lot of reasons why you might be interested in shamanism, as it's just another way to explore the depths of consciousness.

For me personally I think it's cool to learn about shamanism in different cultures, traditions that have been kept in tact for thousands of years (at least for now),
more than likely that's how Buddhism came into existence to begin with emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 12:51 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Having said that, if you wish to use psychedelics instead, fine with me.:


Why not both?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 12:54 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
without bodhicitta buddhist practice is necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still limited in scope.
I would be careful throwing around the word hinayana. It is a derogatory term, full-stop, and the way that the Vajrayana uses it is in reference to its own orbit of traditions, not to refer to the Theravada. It specifically refers to two yanas: the sravaka, which refers to listening and absorbing teachings, and the pratekya, which refers to seeing reality with your own discernment outside the structure of teachings. Neither of these accurately describes the whole of Theravada - that is its own set of traditions with its own divisions, and to apply the characterizations of one to the other is to paint with too broad a brush.

A large part of the Buddha's program is renouncing unskillful habits, deciding that just because they have arisen does not mean they are permanent. It is worth looking at sectarianism as one such habit.

On a tangent, here's an interesting exploration of mostly-overlooked Tantric techniques in early Theravada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1KcXP6T6ag

Tantrikas understand upaya - that the emptily-arranged characteristics of one person at one time may allow some techniques to suit them more than others. I see no reason not to see psychedelics, ritual music, chanting, use of unusual environments etc as a type of upaya. While it may be strange to you, it may be just the ticket to someone else, and that's precisely the beauty of it. Thanks, karma!

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 12:55 PM as a reply to John W.
John W:
As to why people 'turn' to shamanism, I'm not sure if it's as much people turning 'away from' Buddhism so to speak. At least, I have not experienced that.
If you are interested in Buddhism and meditation there's just a lot of reasons why you might be interested in shamanism, as it's just another way to explore the depths of consciousness.
Well said.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 1:52 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
Kim Katami:
without bodhicitta buddhist practice is necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still limited in scope.
I would be careful throwing around the word hinayana. It is a derogatory term, full-stop,

No, hinayana is not a derogatory term and I wasn't using it that way. David Chapman in his blog, "Yanas are not buddhist sects",

"Westerners decided that Theravada must be the same thing as Hinayana. Since “Hinayana” is derogatory in some contexts, Theravadins objected to this. It is now considered politically correct to refer to the three major yanas as Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana—although people think “Theravada really means Hinayana, it’s just not nice to use that word.” This is totally confused. Theravada is a sect, and Hinayana is a yana."

https://vividness.live/2013/11/25/yanas-are-not-buddhist-sects/

John W:
Kim Katami:
Having said that, if you wish to use psychedelics instead, fine with me.:
Why not both?

You mean, "Why not use both, buddhist meditation and psychedelics?". I can only speak for myself and say that I don't think buddhism lacks anything, not even the kind of experiences folks have on psychedelics.

It's a free world and yada yada yada but I think these teachers are setting a bad example and lack faith in dharma.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 2:14 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Yes, "why not both Buddhist meditation and psychedelics?" I think when we are talking about psychedelics on this site it is with regard to how they relate to meditation and generally how you can use them to help with your meditation and insight practice.  That's my understanding at least.

Personally I've found light marijuana usage to be helpful to my meditations, though not necessary.  There may come a time when it is no longer helpful, I'll just have to see.

What teachers are you referring to about that are setting a bad example?

Most of the stuff here whether the Vincent Horn Buddhist Geeks stuff, also Daniel Ingram, are all pretty cautionary about using psychedelics from my viewpoint.  I can see an argument against some of the teachers from the 60's like Ram Dass or Timothy Leary who were/are more vehemently pro-psychedelic usage.  But I would question whether these people are actually causing people to fall into trouble or the opposite, showing people that drugs are not always bad.  Surely a lot of people (most) who get into their teachings had already experimented to some extent. 

FWIW Ram Dass wasn't really Buddhist as much as he was Hindu/Christian.  His guru was a devotee of the Hindu god Hanuman.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 2:44 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
You mean, "Why not use both, buddhist meditation and psychedelics?". I can only speak for myself and say that I don't think buddhism lacks anything, not even the kind of experiences folks have on psychedelics.

You said yourself you had no experience with drugs. It is not possible that such drug did not work so you must have taken a placebo.
If someone needs drug or not is more complicated and I think it need to be assessed individually on one by one case, preferably by someone who know this stuff well, eg. a shaman.

It's a free world and yada yada yada but I think these teachers are setting a bad example and lack faith in dharma.

Here I agree... as long as we are about advertising Buddhism itself and not general human development.

Drugs are knives, can be used to cut though stuff and help create new stuff or can be used to hurt and kill sentient beings.
Unfortunately the same can be said about Buddhist teachings... especially when handed down by psychopaths.

I would advice people to be wary of all three, knives, drugs and the so called Buddhist teachers :!:

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 2:40 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
It's a free world and yada yada yada but I think these teachers are setting a bad example and lack faith in dharma.

Are you able to read their minds?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 2:58 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Kim Katami:
You mean, "Why not use both, buddhist meditation and psychedelics?". I can only speak for myself and say that I don't think buddhism lacks anything, not even the kind of experiences folks have on psychedelics.
You said yourself you had no experience with drugs. It is not possible that such drug did not work so you must have taken a placebo.


The peyote that I took was given by Rupert Encinas, who I mentioned earlier. He's the man Shinzen Young has studied with with for 2-3 decades. He's legit. I wish it had an effect but it didn't. There is nothing more I can say about that. There are other aspects of the same ceremony though that I felt was totally mickey mouse. I wasn't impressed.

Chris Marti:
It's a free world and yada yada yada but I think these teachers are setting a bad example and lack faith in dharma.
Are you able to read their minds?

Why would I need to read their minds when their actions speak for themselves? Like I said, what these teachers have said publically is superficial and there are no details accounts available. Horn and Palmers said they use substances to get better experiences than they've had in meditation. To me, that's weak.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 3:38 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm glad to hear that you feel better now. 

I don't understand this need (?) to compare paths and argue that some are better/higher than others. What's the purpose of that? 

Hey Linda,

Ha. I think many here don't understand it. There used to be a lot more curiosity and openness about practices here. Now, for several years this has been mostly MCTB-forum, without much discussion about other types of practice and paths, (and even reg. MCTB, the discussion seem to have lost most of the depth).

To compare paths is an age old thing. It's good and healthy. And having said that, arhats aren't buddhas. Actually far from it. I respect folks aiming for arhathood, such as the one Ingram says to have attained. But, if you ask me, there's more, a lot more. I say that with the kind of pragmatic muscle this place used to have.

With love and respect emoticonemoticon

We seem to have different ideas about what openness and curiosity are. I'm trying out different traditions and I'm fascinated but how they intersect and how they differ and how they approach things from different angles. MCTB2 actually recommends some of that (among others he recommends looking into Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche whose teachings come from the Tibetan Bön tradition, and that's something I'm checking out). My former teacher Michael Taft teaches different practices including Mahayana. One of my new favorite dharma teachers is Lama Lena. I just don't see the point in being judgemental about other practices. There's not a one size fits all, is there? Many of your threads start out with something interesting but somehow in the end it often seems to come down to you telling poeple that theravadan practices are inferior. My practice includes but is not restricted to theravadan practices, and I don't see why I would have to choose. I don't choose one discipline in my research, I don't choose one partner in my lovelife, and I have no intention of choosing one path in my practice. Thus this penis length competition seems very unnecessary, if you'll excuse my wording. I'm assuming that you can take that kind of straightforwardness. You don't seem like the type that is easily chocked. If that's a misjudgement on my part, I'm sorry. Love and respect right back at ya. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 4:14 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Matthew:
Kim Katami:
without bodhicitta buddhist practice is necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still limited in scope.
I would be careful throwing around the word hinayana. It is a derogatory term, full-stop,

No, hinayana is not a derogatory term and I wasn't using it that way. David Chapman in his blog, "Yanas are not buddhist sects",

"Westerners decided that Theravada must be the same thing as Hinayana. Since “Hinayana” is derogatory in some contexts, Theravadins objected to this. It is now considered politically correct to refer to the three major yanas as Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana—although people think “Theravada really means Hinayana, it’s just not nice to use that word.” This is totally confused. Theravada is a sect, and Hinayana is a yana."

https://vividness.live/2013/11/25/yanas-are-not-buddhist-sects/
I think you may have interpreted my meaning backwards. I'm precisely saying that Theravada is not Hinayana because it is a different sect, different tradition. I'm agreeing with Chapman here. So above, I disagreed with you because you conflated the two, calling Tantric Theravada "Hinayana," even though the two are separate. 

Hinayana is a derogatory term because it means "inferior vehicle," ie inferior to the Mahayana. This is why it's important to note that it's mostly a theoretical construct describing different levels of activity, not a name for an actual sect or tradition.

Anyway yeah, Theravada is not a yana, which is why it can't be Hinayana emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 4:46 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Well, I would argue that the entire dharma is contained in the maha-satipatthana sutta. Everything else, including all competing buddhist traditions, are just variations on that theme. 

Sure there is more detail in other suttas such as on breath meditation, or visualisations in fourth jhana, or the use of brahma viharas to enter concentration states, or how to apply insight to jhana factors, or more detail on the arising and cessation of dukkha, or how to live a decent life. But these are really just embellishments. Simliarly, I would characterise tantric visualations as an embellishment, allowing the use of concentration states to generate visions that give insight into the five aggregates of clinging. There is nothing special about all these embellishments - there are another 83,995 of them, and we can come up with them ourselves - for example using macular degeneration as a concentration object to produce visions!  So useful tech, yes. But the specific vehicles have been developed for a particular time and place, or a particular culture, within the context of monastic traditions. 

If these specific vehicles work for people, great!  But this is an age of householder practice, in virtual communities, with distance learning. The winds of change are blowing, and new ways are coming to construct our practices.  We will need to form new embellishments around the maha-satipatthana sutta, and not feel restricted to the three ancient vehicles. 

In fact, Kim, you are a great exponent of this yourself, going by your books! You might be inspired by the Tibetans, but open heart sangha really seems to be your own (seemingly rather successful) take on it.

So ultimately, I aruge we are all doing the same thing. We are all just bringing a bunch of tech to bear on the contents of the maha-satipatthana sutta.  Does it really matter what tech we use, as long as it works?

With love (and constructive mischief)

Malcolm

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 4:50 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, Malcolm. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 6:25 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Hi all,

Here's something interesting about well known buddhists such as Shinzen Young, Jack Kornfield, Stephen Batchelor and Culadasa John Yates and their connection or view about shamanism. I'm not pasting the text here because of problems with this forum software.

Read the rest here: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/02/why-do-buddhists-turn-to-shamanism.html

Cheers,

Kim

Edit: Adding to the list...
  • Vanja Palmers (soto zen buddhist) says that after decades of zen-meditation he wanted to repeat impressive experience he had as a teenager on LSD: https://youtu.be/gsJ7Z_t5H_o?t=347
  • Vincent Horn, How Psychedelics Improve Your Meditation (And Much More…). "...He found that psychedelics could be used in a similar way to meditation, in order to explore the mind and existence. By setting an intention, and creating an environment similar to meditation, he found he learned some things through psychedelics that his meditative practice hadn’t.Vince says that the visual experience of psychedelics was very different to that of meditation. Psychedelics allowed him to feel connected to his human ancestry, and gave him an ego death experience that shook him more fundamentally than any ego death he’d experienced with meditation. He warns, however, about the power of psychedelics – one experience made him “go crazy” for several days. He would slap a warning label on both psychedelics and meditation, describing them both as trial by fire...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGA7L1TH1Gc
  • Brad Warner critisizes psychedelic buddhism and Vincent Horn based on buddhist precepts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZysiPbe8ErY


spiritual tourists...

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 6:30 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Matthew:
Kim Katami:
without bodhicitta buddhist practice is necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still limited in scope.
I would be careful throwing around the word hinayana. It is a derogatory term, full-stop,

No, hinayana is not a derogatory term and I wasn't using it that way. David Chapman in his blog, "Yanas are not buddhist sects",

"Westerners decided that Theravada must be the same thing as Hinayana. Since “Hinayana” is derogatory in some contexts, Theravadins objected to this. It is now considered politically correct to refer to the three major yanas as Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana—although people think “Theravada really means Hinayana, it’s just not nice to use that word.” This is totally confused. Theravada is a sect, and Hinayana is a yana."

https://vividness.live/2013/11/25/yanas-are-not-buddhist-sects/

John W:
Kim Katami:
Having said that, if you wish to use psychedelics instead, fine with me.:
Why not both?

You mean, "Why not use both, buddhist meditation and psychedelics?". I can only speak for myself and say that I don't think buddhism lacks anything, not even the kind of experiences folks have on psychedelics.

It's a free world and yada yada yada but I think these teachers are setting a bad example and lack faith in dharma.


correctamundo

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 6:38 PM as a reply to John W.
John W:
Yes, "why not both Buddhist meditation and psychedelics?" I think when we are talking about psychedelics on this site it is with regard to how they relate to meditation and generally how you can use them to help with your meditation and insight practice.  That's my understanding at least.

Personally I've found light marijuana usage to be helpful to my meditations, though not necessary.  There may come a time when it is no longer helpful, I'll just have to see.

What teachers are you referring to about that are setting a bad example?

Most of the stuff here whether the Vincent Horn Buddhist Geeks stuff, also Daniel Ingram, are all pretty cautionary about using psychedelics from my viewpoint.  I can see an argument against some of the teachers from the 60's like Ram Dass or Timothy Leary who were/are more vehemently pro-psychedelic usage.  But I would question whether these people are actually causing people to fall into trouble or the opposite, showing people that drugs are not always bad.  Surely a lot of people (most) who get into their teachings had already experimented to some extent. 

FWIW Ram Dass wasn't really Buddhist as much as he was Hindu/Christian.  His guru was a devotee of the Hindu god Hanuman.


from "be here now" by ram dass:

"I generally thought we were buddhists."


(ram dass was the quintessential spiritual tourist who eventually came home...)



Legend Of a Mind
(moody blues)

Timothy Leary's dead
No, no, no, no, he's outside looking in
Timothy Leary's dead
No, no, no, no, he's outside looking in
He'll fly his astral plane
Takes you trips around the bay
Brings you back the same day
Timothy Leary, Timothy Leary

Timothy Leary's dead
No, no, no, no, he's outside looking in
Timothy Leary's dead
No, no, no, no, he's outside looking in
He'll fly his astral plane
Takes you trips around the bay
Brings you back the same day
Timothy Leary, Timothy Leary

Along the coast you'll hear them boast
About a light they say that shines so clear
So raise your glass, we'll drink a toast
To the little man who sells you thrills along the pier

He'll take you up, he'll bring you down
He'll plant your feet back firmly on the ground
He flies so high, he swoops so low
He knows exactly which way he's gonna go
Timothy Leary, Timothy Leary

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 6:50 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Kim Katami:
Matthew:
Kim Katami:
without bodhicitta buddhist practice is necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still limited in scope.
I would be careful throwing around the word hinayana. It is a derogatory term, full-stop,

No, hinayana is not a derogatory term and I wasn't using it that way. David Chapman in his blog, "Yanas are not buddhist sects",

"Westerners decided that Theravada must be the same thing as Hinayana. Since “Hinayana” is derogatory in some contexts, Theravadins objected to this. It is now considered politically correct to refer to the three major yanas as Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana—although people think “Theravada really means Hinayana, it’s just not nice to use that word.” This is totally confused. Theravada is a sect, and Hinayana is a yana."

https://vividness.live/2013/11/25/yanas-are-not-buddhist-sects/

John W:
Kim Katami:
Having said that, if you wish to use psychedelics instead, fine with me.:
Why not both?

You mean, "Why not use both, buddhist meditation and psychedelics?". I can only speak for myself and say that I don't think buddhism lacks anything, not even the kind of experiences folks have on psychedelics.

It's a free world and yada yada yada but I think these teachers are setting a bad example and lack faith in dharma.


correctamundo


    Dharma teachers who abandon the dharma for the snap crackle and pop of psychedelics  demonstrate that their faith in psychedelics is greater than their faith in the dharma. "Westerners, being materialists, find their god in a material," lsd. (neem karoli baba, from "be here now").

   Turning to psychedelics after finding the dharma is a technique of despair. The rope and bucket of their inner well did not go all the way to the bottom.

terry

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 7:04 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Kim Katami:
Hi all,

Here's something interesting about well known buddhists such as Shinzen Young, Jack Kornfield, Stephen Batchelor and Culadasa John Yates and their connection or view about shamanism. I'm not pasting the text here because of problems with this forum software.

Read the rest here: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/02/why-do-buddhists-turn-to-shamanism.html

Cheers,

Kim

Edit: Adding to the list...
  • Vanja Palmers (soto zen buddhist) says that after decades of zen-meditation he wanted to repeat impressive experience he had as a teenager on LSD: https://youtu.be/gsJ7Z_t5H_o?t=347
  • Vincent Horn, How Psychedelics Improve Your Meditation (And Much More…). "...He found that psychedelics could be used in a similar way to meditation, in order to explore the mind and existence. By setting an intention, and creating an environment similar to meditation, he found he learned some things through psychedelics that his meditative practice hadn’t.Vince says that the visual experience of psychedelics was very different to that of meditation. Psychedelics allowed him to feel connected to his human ancestry, and gave him an ego death experience that shook him more fundamentally than any ego death he’d experienced with meditation. He warns, however, about the power of psychedelics – one experience made him “go crazy” for several days. He would slap a warning label on both psychedelics and meditation, describing them both as trial by fire...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGA7L1TH1Gc
  • Brad Warner critisizes psychedelic buddhism and Vincent Horn based on buddhist precepts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZysiPbe8ErY


spiritual tourists...

I am curious if you guys have actually listened to the Buddhist Geeks podcast (Vince Horn's podcast) or if you just found this one random Youtube video and extrapolated from there.

Vince Horn's philosophy is about as similar to Daniel Ingram and MCTB as you can get, in fact Daniel has been featured several times on the show.

https://www.integrateddaniel.info/podcasts-and-videos

I've only listened to maybe a handful of podcasts but it is in fact how I found this website and how I found MCTB.

I hope you can understand why it seems counterintuitive to me to call this 'spiritual tourism', considering that you are an active participant on this website.  By virtue of that fact it's a fair assumption that you at least agree somewhat with the teachings from MCTB, which has huge overlaps with Vince Horn's stuff as well as Jack Kornfield and all that.

Of course, if you're here just to disagree and point out how all of this is bogus, that's fine as well.  But honestly you might find that effort is better spent elsewhere, like, in perfecting your own practice, whatever it is.

If that's the case I would also ask why you didn't just name the post 'Why I Think Drugs are Bad' or maybe something a little catchier like 'Just Say No'.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 7:16 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Kim Katami:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm glad to hear that you feel better now. 

I don't understand this need (?) to compare paths and argue that some are better/higher than others. What's the purpose of that? 

Hey Linda,

Ha. I think many here don't understand it. There used to be a lot more curiosity and openness about practices here. Now, for several years this has been mostly MCTB-forum, without much discussion about other types of practice and paths, (and even reg. MCTB, the discussion seem to have lost most of the depth).

To compare paths is an age old thing. It's good and healthy. And having said that, arhats aren't buddhas. Actually far from it. I respect folks aiming for arhathood, such as the one Ingram says to have attained. But, if you ask me, there's more, a lot more. I say that with the kind of pragmatic muscle this place used to have.

With love and respect emoticonemoticon

We seem to have different ideas about what openness and curiosity are. I'm trying out different traditions and I'm fascinated but how they intersect and how they differ and how they approach things from different angles. MCTB2 actually recommends some of that (among others he recommends looking into Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche whose teachings come from the Tibetan Bön tradition, and that's something I'm checking out). My former teacher Michael Taft teaches different practices including Mahayana. One of my new favorite dharma teachers is Lama Lena. I just don't see the point in being judgemental about other practices. There's not a one size fits all, is there? Many of your threads start out with something interesting but somehow in the end it often seems to come down to you telling poeple that theravadan practices are inferior. My practice includes but is not restricted to theravadan practices, and I don't see why I would have to choose. I don't choose one discipline in my research, I don't choose one partner in my lovelife, and I have no intention of choosing one path in my practice. Thus this penis length competition seems very unnecessary, if you'll excuse my wording. I'm assuming that you can take that kind of straightforwardness. You don't seem like the type that is easily chocked. If that's a misjudgement on my part, I'm sorry. Love and respect right back at ya. 

aloha linda,

    If someone treaches you one thing and claims it is the ultimate truth, then later comes along and says, no this is the ultimate truth now, take more of this and get more ultimate truth, you might think they don't know what they are talking about. They are just teaching you about their latest enthusiasm.

   There is no dharma but the dharma.

terry




ttc/feng


SEVENTY

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,
Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

My words have ancient beginnings.
My actions are disciplined.
Because men do not understand, they have no knowledge of me.

Those that know me are few;
Those that abuse me are honoured.
Therefore the sage wears rough clothing and holds the jewel in his heart.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 7:27 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
Kim Katami:
Matthew:
Kim Katami:
without bodhicitta buddhist practice is necessarily hinayana, not mahayana. According to some sources there was a time when there was tantric hinayana or tantric theravada. Maybe these folks are re-inventing it which might be a good thing, though still limited in scope.
I would be careful throwing around the word hinayana. It is a derogatory term, full-stop,

No, hinayana is not a derogatory term and I wasn't using it that way. David Chapman in his blog, "Yanas are not buddhist sects",

"Westerners decided that Theravada must be the same thing as Hinayana. Since “Hinayana” is derogatory in some contexts, Theravadins objected to this. It is now considered politically correct to refer to the three major yanas as Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana—although people think “Theravada really means Hinayana, it’s just not nice to use that word.” This is totally confused. Theravada is a sect, and Hinayana is a yana."

https://vividness.live/2013/11/25/yanas-are-not-buddhist-sects/
I think you may have interpreted my meaning backwards. I'm precisely saying that Theravada is not Hinayana because it is a different sect, different tradition. I'm agreeing with Chapman here. So above, I disagreed with you because you conflated the two, calling Tantric Theravada "Hinayana," even though the two are separate. 

Hinayana is a derogatory term because it means "inferior vehicle," ie inferior to the Mahayana. This is why it's important to note that it's mostly a theoretical construct describing different levels of activity, not a name for an actual sect or tradition.

Anyway yeah, Theravada is not a yana, which is why it can't be Hinayana emoticon


   Whatever you call it, if a dharma practicioner seeks individual enlightenment over that of all sentient being(s), it is a lesser vehicle.

   I'd go with the 'theravada is a sect and hinayana is a theoretical construct of mahayana buddhists.' Theravada knows the bodhisattva ideal as well. If yoiu seek individual enlightenment via the theravadan path, your ego might feel put down by non-pc mahayanists. You could make a stink about it. Or burn incense on the buddha's altar.

terry

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 7:33 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:
Well, I would argue that the entire dharma is contained in the maha-satipatthana sutta. Everything else, including all competing buddhist traditions, are just variations on that theme. 

Sure there is more detail in other suttas such as on breath meditation, or visualisations in fourth jhana, or the use of brahma viharas to enter concentration states, or how to apply insight to jhana factors, or more detail on the arising and cessation of dukkha, or how to live a decent life. But these are really just embellishments. Simliarly, I would characterise tantric visualations as an embellishment, allowing the use of concentration states to generate visions that give insight into the five aggregates of clinging. There is nothing special about all these embellishments - there are another 83,995 of them, and we can come up with them ourselves - for example using macular degeneration as a concentration object to produce visions!  So useful tech, yes. But the specific vehicles have been developed for a particular time and place, or a particular culture, within the context of monastic traditions. 

If these specific vehicles work for people, great!  But this is an age of householder practice, in virtual communities, with distance learning. The winds of change are blowing, and new ways are coming to construct our practices.  We will need to form new embellishments around the maha-satipatthana sutta, and not feel restricted to the three ancient vehicles. 

In fact, Kim, you are a great exponent of this yourself, going by your books! You might be inspired by the Tibetans, but open heart sangha really seems to be your own (seemingly rather successful) take on it.

So ultimately, I aruge we are all doing the same thing. We are all just bringing a bunch of tech to bear on the contents of the maha-satipatthana sutta.  Does it really matter what tech we use, as long as it works?

With love (and constructive mischief)

Malcolm

   Those three old vehicles... speaking as an old vehicle myself, that reminds me of a song...



You Been a Good Old Wagon
(bessie smith)

I'm playin' quits now, right from this very night.
You've had your day. Don't sit around and frown.
You've been a good old wagon, Daddy, but you done broke down.
Now, you'd better go the blacksmith shop and get yourself overhauled.
There's nothing about you to make a good woman fall.
Nobody wants a baby when a real man can be found.
You've been a good old wagon, Daddy, but you done broke down.
When the sun is shinin', it's time to make hay.
Automobiles operate. You can't make your wagon pay.
When you were in your prime, you liked to run around.
You've been a good old wagon, Daddy, but you done broke down.
There's no need to cry and make a big show.
This man knows more about lovin' than you will ever know.
He is the king of lovin'. This man deserves a crown.
He is a good old wagon, Daddy, and he ain't broke down.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 7:53 PM as a reply to John W.
John W:
terry:
Kim Katami:
Hi all,

Here's something interesting about well known buddhists such as Shinzen Young, Jack Kornfield, Stephen Batchelor and Culadasa John Yates and their connection or view about shamanism. I'm not pasting the text here because of problems with this forum software.

Read the rest here: https://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2020/02/why-do-buddhists-turn-to-shamanism.html

Cheers,

Kim

Edit: Adding to the list...
  • Vanja Palmers (soto zen buddhist) says that after decades of zen-meditation he wanted to repeat impressive experience he had as a teenager on LSD: https://youtu.be/gsJ7Z_t5H_o?t=347
  • Vincent Horn, How Psychedelics Improve Your Meditation (And Much More…). "...He found that psychedelics could be used in a similar way to meditation, in order to explore the mind and existence. By setting an intention, and creating an environment similar to meditation, he found he learned some things through psychedelics that his meditative practice hadn’t.Vince says that the visual experience of psychedelics was very different to that of meditation. Psychedelics allowed him to feel connected to his human ancestry, and gave him an ego death experience that shook him more fundamentally than any ego death he’d experienced with meditation. He warns, however, about the power of psychedelics – one experience made him “go crazy” for several days. He would slap a warning label on both psychedelics and meditation, describing them both as trial by fire...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGA7L1TH1Gc
  • Brad Warner critisizes psychedelic buddhism and Vincent Horn based on buddhist precepts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZysiPbe8ErY


spiritual tourists...

I am curious if you guys have actually listened to the Buddhist Geeks podcast (Vince Horn's podcast) or if you just found this one random Youtube video and extrapolated from there.

Vince Horn's philosophy is about as similar to Daniel Ingram and MCTB as you can get, in fact Daniel has been featured several times on the show.

https://www.integrateddaniel.info/podcasts-and-videos

I've only listened to maybe a handful of podcasts but it is in fact how I found this website and how I found MCTB.

I hope you can understand why it seems counterintuitive to me to call this 'spiritual tourism', considering that you are an active participant on this website.  By virtue of that fact it's a fair assumption that you at least agree somewhat with the teachings from MCTB, which has huge overlaps with Vince Horn's stuff as well as Jack Kornfield and all that.

Of course, if you're here just to disagree and point out how all of this is bogus, that's fine as well.  But honestly you might find that effort is better spent elsewhere, like, in perfecting your own practice, whatever it is.

If that's the case I would also ask why you didn't just name the post 'Why I Think Drugs are Bad' or maybe something a little catchier like 'Just Say No'.


    Some bad assumptions, bra.

   I love drugs. Just don't think they have anything to do with the dharma. I love sex, food, power, wealth, you name it, but I have been burned too often to want them. At this point, I would take psychedelics only as a courtesy to a guest (and I would enjoy the experience intensely).

   I haven't read dan's book and have no particular feeling for his philosophies, whatever they are. I'm just hanging out, and no one has gone so far as to kick me out yet, despite my non-conformity with what is expected of me. You could say I'm a tourist in pragmatic dharma land, in this world but not of it.

   I don't like to watch podcasts of contemproary teachers. "They all seem like game show hosts to me" (sting). I watched shinzen young one time and gagged. Not looking to repeat the experience. If there are any enlightened teachers, they keep themselves well hidden. Not hard, as they hide in plain sight, and look just like you and me.

   I am perfecting my practice. If it seems imperfect, examine your inner self.

   Does marijuana count as a drug? When tim leary was running for governor of california, his platform said, "marijuana for everybody." The press asked him, "what about those people who don't want to smoke it?" Leary said, "they can eat it in brownies."

  Lastly, lighten up, bra, it's all in fun.


terry



The Magical Mystery Tour
(the beatles)

Roll up roll up for the Mystery Tour
Roll up
That's an invitation
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
Roll up
To make a reservation
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
The Magical Mystery Tour
Is waiting to take you away
Waiting to take you away
Roll up
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
Roll up
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
Roll up
They've got everything you need
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
Roll up
Satisfaction guaranteed
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
The Magical Mystery Tour is hoping to take you away
Hoping to take you away
The Mystery Tour
Ah
The Magical Mystery Tour
Roll up
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
Roll up
That's an invitation
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
Roll up
To make a reservation
Roll up for the Mystery Tour
The Magical Mystery Tour
Is coming to take you away
Coming to take you away
The Magical Mystery Tour
Is dying to take you away
Dying to take you away
Take you today

Songwriters: John Lennon / Paul Mccartney

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/2/20 8:41 PM as a reply to terry.
[quote=terry

]  Lastly, lighten up, bra, it's all in fun.




Hey I'm sure we share a lot in common, especially taste in music (Do you like the Beach Boys?).  I do apologize if my post came across the wrong way, I mean no offense. I think I'm really bad at sounding overly snarky when I'm communicating online emoticon

Anyway I appreciate your comments and glad to be able have these types of conversations. 

Im actually pretty new to this site.  I'm not aware of any sort of expectations as to what you should or should not conform to, that kind of thing is usually a warning sign for me honestly. Cheers

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 12:52 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Kim Katami:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm glad to hear that you feel better now. 

I don't understand this need (?) to compare paths and argue that some are better/higher than others. What's the purpose of that? 

Hey Linda,

Ha. I think many here don't understand it. There used to be a lot more curiosity and openness about practices here. Now, for several years this has been mostly MCTB-forum, without much discussion about other types of practice and paths, (and even reg. MCTB, the discussion seem to have lost most of the depth).

To compare paths is an age old thing. It's good and healthy. And having said that, arhats aren't buddhas. Actually far from it. I respect folks aiming for arhathood, such as the one Ingram says to have attained. But, if you ask me, there's more, a lot more. I say that with the kind of pragmatic muscle this place used to have.

With love and respect emoticonemoticon

We seem to have different ideas about what openness and curiosity are. I'm trying out different traditions and I'm fascinated but how they intersect and how they differ and how they approach things from different angles. MCTB2 actually recommends some of that (among others he recommends looking into Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche whose teachings come from the Tibetan Bön tradition, and that's something I'm checking out). My former teacher Michael Taft teaches different practices including Mahayana. One of my new favorite dharma teachers is Lama Lena. I just don't see the point in being judgemental about other practices. There's not a one size fits all, is there? Many of your threads start out with something interesting but somehow in the end it often seems to come down to you telling poeple that theravadan practices are inferior. My practice includes but is not restricted to theravadan practices, and I don't see why I would have to choose. I don't choose one discipline in my research, I don't choose one partner in my lovelife, and I have no intention of choosing one path in my practice. Thus this penis length competition seems very unnecessary, if you'll excuse my wording. I'm assuming that you can take that kind of straightforwardness. You don't seem like the type that is easily chocked. If that's a misjudgement on my part, I'm sorry. Love and respect right back at ya. 

aloha linda,

    If someone treaches you one thing and claims it is the ultimate truth, then later comes along and says, no this is the ultimate truth now, take more of this and get more ultimate truth, you might think they don't know what they are talking about. They are just teaching you about their latest enthusiasm.

   There is no dharma but the dharma.

terry




ttc/feng


SEVENTY

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,
Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

My words have ancient beginnings.
My actions are disciplined.
Because men do not understand, they have no knowledge of me.

Those that know me are few;
Those that abuse me are honoured.
Therefore the sage wears rough clothing and holds the jewel in his heart.
I usually stay away from teachers that claim that they have the ultimate thruth, honestly. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 6:45 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
The peyote that I took was given by Rupert Encinas, who I mentioned earlier. He's the man Shinzen Young has studied with with for 2-3 decades. He's legit. I wish it had an effect but it didn't. There is nothing more I can say about that. There are other aspects of the same ceremony though that I felt was totally mickey mouse. I wasn't impressed.

Do you have an idea why the peyote didn't affect you?

Also, did you tell Rupert Encinas that the peyote didn't affect you? And if so, did he offer any explanation?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 7:30 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Why would I need to read their minds when their actions speak for themselves? Like I said, what these teachers have said publically is superficial and there are no details accounts available. Horn and Palmers said they use substances to get better experiences than they've had in meditation. To me, that's weak.

There are plenty of details available from Vincent Horn. You just need to read them instead of making assumptions about him.

https://www.buddhistgeeks.org/

https://thethirdwave.co/psychedelics/

To be upfront about this, I'm not advocating the use of psychedelics. I don't use them but I think it's a misreading of Vincent Horn to assume he's saying psychedelics replace the dharma. Vincent Horn did his practice for many years according to Buddhist orthodoxy and used various meditation techniques, pragmatic dharma among many others. It's fair to at least react to what he's saying and not what you assume he's saying.


RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 9:37 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I will just add something about Shinzen and then leave you to it emoticon 

I do remember Shinzen explaining how Psychic Realms are basically on the trajectory path from the one going towards the source (I think he means enlightement). He warns those going into Power Realms to do so with good knowledge in Vipassana. He had a very sad face when he stated that many Shamans he knows went into the Power arealms too deep with no avail to ever find their way back. Power Realm can feel more real than our mondain reality. 

Maybe a Shinzen is into it to Master it so he can help those lost in there to come back again, to a place where they can walk towards the Source (awakening). 

I know nothing of such stuff but folks like Shinzen and Ingram sure are well equipped to dive into power realms of shamanism and see them for what they are. 

it would be great if they would Map out that territory. 

that's all I have to say emoticon Be well you all

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 11:20 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Kim Katami:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm glad to hear that you feel better now. 

I don't understand this need (?) to compare paths and argue that some are better/higher than others. What's the purpose of that? 

Hey Linda,

Ha. I think many here don't understand it. There used to be a lot more curiosity and openness about practices here. Now, for several years this has been mostly MCTB-forum, without much discussion about other types of practice and paths, (and even reg. MCTB, the discussion seem to have lost most of the depth).

To compare paths is an age old thing. It's good and healthy. And having said that, arhats aren't buddhas. Actually far from it. I respect folks aiming for arhathood, such as the one Ingram says to have attained. But, if you ask me, there's more, a lot more. I say that with the kind of pragmatic muscle this place used to have.

With love and respect emoticonemoticon

We seem to have different ideas about what openness and curiosity are. I'm trying out different traditions and I'm fascinated but how they intersect and how they differ and how they approach things from different angles. MCTB2 actually recommends some of that (among others he recommends looking into Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche whose teachings come from the Tibetan Bön tradition, and that's something I'm checking out). My former teacher Michael Taft teaches different practices including Mahayana. One of my new favorite dharma teachers is Lama Lena. I just don't see the point in being judgemental about other practices. There's not a one size fits all, is there? Many of your threads start out with something interesting but somehow in the end it often seems to come down to you telling poeple that theravadan practices are inferior. My practice includes but is not restricted to theravadan practices, and I don't see why I would have to choose. I don't choose one discipline in my research, I don't choose one partner in my lovelife, and I have no intention of choosing one path in my practice. Thus this penis length competition seems very unnecessary, if you'll excuse my wording. I'm assuming that you can take that kind of straightforwardness. You don't seem like the type that is easily chocked. If that's a misjudgement on my part, I'm sorry. Love and respect right back at ya. 

aloha linda,

    If someone treaches you one thing and claims it is the ultimate truth, then later comes along and says, no this is the ultimate truth now, take more of this and get more ultimate truth, you might think they don't know what they are talking about. They are just teaching you about their latest enthusiasm.

   There is no dharma but the dharma.

terry




ttc/feng


SEVENTY

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,
Yet no man under heaven knows them or practices them.

My words have ancient beginnings.
My actions are disciplined.
Because men do not understand, they have no knowledge of me.

Those that know me are few;
Those that abuse me are honoured.
Therefore the sage wears rough clothing and holds the jewel in his heart.
I usually stay away from teachers that claim that they have the ultimate thruth, honestly. 


   "Dharma teacher" equals 'teacher of ultimate truth.' Teaching "mastery" implies mastery, if you know what you are talking about.

   It's a commonplace in sufism that a (real) sufi never identifies himself as a sufi. If pressed, when asked if they were enlightened, they might say, "If I told you I were enlightened, you would know it wasn't true, but if I told you I wasn't, I'd be lying." As they say in zen, 'once you open your mouth, you are lost.' Anyone who imagines they can grasp ultimate truth is obviously deluded. You can only let it grasp you.

   I tend to agree about distancing oneself from people who want to tell me the truth, but thinking about it, I talk to jehovah's witnesses and anyone else who will discuss ultimate truth with me. But pretty much only if they are on my doorstep, so to speak. I don't seek people out. Long ago Ifigured out that if they don't know, I can't tell them, and if I don't know, they can't tell me, so what difference does it make? I focus on fellow travelers and let wagonmasters (lead donkeys, judas goats) go on without me.

   We're all just friends here. I don't make distinctions. I talk to animals; they talk back. Birds make gestures; I gesture back. I crow with the cocks, bark with the dogs and sing with the whales. 

terry



Feeling Good
(nina simone)

Birds flyin' high
You know how I feel
Sun in the sky
You know how I feel
Breeze driftin' on by
You know how I feel
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good
I'm feeling good
Fish in the sea
You know how I feel
River running free
You know how I feel
Blossom on a tree
You know how I feel
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good
Dragonfly out in the sun, you know what I mean, don't you know
Butterflies all havin' fun, you know what I mean
Sleep in peace when day is done, that's what I mean
And this old world is a new world
And a bold world
For me
For me
Stars when you shine
You know how I feel
Scent of the pine
You know how I feel
Oh, freedom is mine
And I know how I feel
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good
I'm feeling good
I'm feeling so good
I feel so good

Songwriters: Leslie Bricusse / Anthony Newley

   

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 11:33 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
I do remember Shinzen explaining how Psychic Realms are basically on the trajectory path from the one going towards the source (I think he means enlightement). He warns those going into Power Realms to do so with good knowledge in Vipassana. He had a very sad face when he stated that many Shamans he knows went into the Power arealms too deep with no avail to ever find their way back. Power Realm can feel more real than our mondain reality. 

Maybe a Shinzen is into it to Master it so he can help those lost in there to come back again, to a place where they can walk towards the Source (awakening). 
This offers a compelling potential reason for why Buddhists who have a certain depth of vipassana practice turn to shamanism. Shinzen's model in this scenario is a little like a sphere with reified, solid-seeming conceptual reality on the surface, pure constructless impermanence as the nature of phenomena in the middle, and the "realm of power" between. Since this is between formlessness and form, it is a sort of shifting dreamlike zone where forms can cohere, but are still seen as plays of impermanence. This is the realm of siddhis, magic, and yes, shamanism.

In most presentations of Buddhism, particularly in the hardcore vipassana-focused forms including those most discussed here, the goal is to break through the shell of that outer conceptual layer and plunge directly into the center as efficiently as possible. Phenomena are impermanent, therefore unsatisfactory, therefore not suited to build selfhood around - and down and down we drill until we get beyond the whole mess of identification in the first place. For someone who wants to accomplish the program the historical Buddha set out, to go beyond the cognitive mistakes that cause suffering, this is certainly a direct way to get there.

This entails missing that middle realm of power and leaving it unexplored. Yes, one necessarily passes through it, in the A&P for example, but if the goal is to get beyond it then there's no need to stay. One zooms through without spending much time taking in the views.

Shamanism, on the other hand, generally cares less about what's beyond that liminal space. In some cases the entire practice is about working with it. Perhaps these people are retracing their steps, then, taking the scenic route where they once sped through at Autobahn speeds. From the perspective of someone whose goal is to get to the "source" as Shinzen calls it, or to see the nature of phenomena without confusion, this seems like a regression. But to someone who has some degree of familiarity with that, and wishes to explore the details they may have missed along the way, this is just another choice.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 11:58 AM as a reply to Matthew.
That's well put, Matthew. 

I suspect exploring that realm can teach us a lot about how we construct our reality, more in depth. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 12:11 PM as a reply to terry.
Terry, I don't mind talking to lots of different people and to animals and other kinds of beings should that be available. I think there is something to learn in any encounter. When it comes to the dharma, my experience so far is that it is complex enough for many different angles and approaches. I'm sure you are familiar with (and remember better than me) the analogy/metaphor about the blind monks who described the same elephant based on what part of it they happened to grab hold of. Similarly, if different people point to the same spot from different angles, they will point in different directions. That doesn't mean that one direction was faulty. It just means that they started out from a different angle. I'm interested in the intersections, as they might enable triangulation. Also, some roads may be more accessible for me than others, based on where "I" started out. I appreciate a teacher who is flexible enough to take this into account and who is also curious enough to explore different approaches just for the fun of it, because otherwise they just won't tolerate my questions anyway. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 12:25 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew:
I would be careful throwing around the word hinayana. It is a derogatory term, full-stop, and the way that the Vajrayana uses it is in reference to its own orbit of traditions, not to refer to the Theravada. It specifically refers to two yanas: the sravaka, which refers to listening and absorbing teachings, and the pratekya, which refers to seeing reality with your own discernment outside the structure of teachings. Neither of these accurately describes the whole of Theravada - that is its own set of traditions with its own divisions, and to apply the characterizations of one to the other is to paint with too broad a brush.

Maybe Hinayana is derogatory but it should not be.
Actually there is nothing wrong with seeking own personal enlightenment before working toward fulfilling Mahayana wows which imply helping other sentient beings.
I would even go as far as to say that anyone not doing it in this order must be motivated by ignorance and is sewing seeds of own future suffering.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 12:28 PM as a reply to terry.
listening to nina simone...


I Wish I Knew How It Would Feel To Be Free
(nina simone)

I wish I knew how
It would feel to be free
I wish I could break
All the chains holding me
I wish I could say
All the things that I should say
Say 'em loud, say 'em clear
For the whole round world to hear
I wish I could share
All the love that's in my heart
Remove all the bars
That keep us apart
I wish you could know
What it means to be me
Then you'd see and agree
That every man should be free
I wish I could give
All I'm longin' to give
I wish I could live
Like I'm longin' to live
I wish I could do
All the things that I can do
And though I'm way over due
I'd be starting anew
Well I wish I could be 
Like a bird in the sky
How sweet it would be
If I found I could fly
Oh I'd soar to the sun
And look down at the sea
Then I'd sing 'cause I know, yea
Then I'd sing 'cause I know, yea
Then I'd sing 'cause I know 
I'd know how it feels
Oh I know how it feels to be free
Yea yea! Oh, I know how it feels
Yes I know, oh, I know
How it feels
How it feels
To be free, Lord, Lord, Lord

Songwriters: Dick Dallas / Billy Taylor

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 1:07 PM as a reply to terry.
Does this spam have any purpose?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 2:05 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Does this spam have any purpose?

It is a description yearning for awakening, for the ending of the effluents, for liberation.  It may not be consciously obvious, but the subconscious is often smarter than the conscious, and finds a way to communicate.  emoticon 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 2:50 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:
It is a description yearning for awakening, for the ending of the effluents, for liberation.  It may not be consciously obvious, but the subconscious is often smarter than the conscious, and finds a way to communicate.  emoticon 

Might be so and I am not against that
But communication should find its way outside at right place and right time otherwise it is called "spam"

What is connection between quoting lyrics and Buddhists turning to shamanism and drugs?... but maybe there is and maybe this is cautionary example =P

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 4:11 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Does this spam have any purpose?


spam spam spam spam


why do you ask?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 4:12 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:
Ni Nurta:
Does this spam have any purpose?

It is a description yearning for awakening, for the ending of the effluents, for liberation.  It may not be consciously obvious, but the subconscious is often smarter than the conscious, and finds a way to communicate.  emoticon 

I love you!

(heart)

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 4:44 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
spam spam spam spam
why do you ask?

Because apparently I have nothing better to do than to scroll down pages of random noise emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 4:50 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
curious:
It is a description yearning for awakening, for the ending of the effluents, for liberation.  It may not be consciously obvious, but the subconscious is often smarter than the conscious, and finds a way to communicate.  emoticon 

Might be so and I am not against that
But communication should find its way outside at right place and right time otherwise it is called "spam"

What is connection between quoting lyrics and Buddhists turning to shamanism and drugs?... but maybe there is and maybe this is cautionary example =P


aloha ni,

   I could explain, but if you don't get the joke, or the poem, or the song, explaining is no fun.

   One time though, I could try. The lyrics to nina simone's "I wish I knew how it would feel to be free" were a counterpoint to the lyrics of "feeling good." The latter was posted as a wonderful poem about the unity of all beings in samadhi/satori, which I felt was a taste of the ineffable dharma that cannot be taught but only experienced. Now, I like to present more than one side of an issue, often in several connected posts. "Feeling good" was about being free. "I wish I knew how it would feel to be free" is about the unversal longing for the former state. The two are entwined like high and low, like the passions and enlightenment. The beloved is in the longing. The Path Is The Goal.

   On a personal level I thought the first poem might imply that "I" was this free being wholly united to the universe with no residue of separational desire and attachment, or clinging or passion. So I present nina's counterpoint to the longing that keeps us humble and on the great way. 

   When I am flying along in unity "I" don't know it. "I" only know suffering and longing.

   You see? If you want to get the full flavor, you should find the songs online and listen to them. Perhaps on earphones. (wink)

   Hey, bra, if I offend you it is not intentional, and please pay no attention.


   I have no problem with "buddhists" being attracted to shamanism, and finding parallels in it to their appreciation of the dharma. "Every created being has a unique path to the creator" (abu sa'id.) I have no problem with teachers teaching and students learning. And I deal with tourists all the time. Contrary to the bad rap, most of them are on good behavior while they are away from home. Even so, they are out of their depth and are incapable appreciating local culture or moving to local rhythms. There"s something to be said for taking root in a given tradition and maturing the fruit of its wisdom before presuming to teach about it. And then, only if asked.

   I'm a poet, an artist; not a teacher of anything. I am what I am no more no less.

terry




What I Am
(edie brickell and the new bohemians)

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box
Religion is the smile on a dog
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean, do doo yeah
Shove me in the shallow waters
Before I get too deep
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what?
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are, or?
Oh, I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean
Philosophy is a walk on the slippery rocks
Religion is a light in the fog
I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean, do doo yeah
Shove me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
Shove me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what?
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what?
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what you are is?
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what
Ha la la ha
I say, I say, I say, I do
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey
Shove me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
Shove me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
Shove me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
Shove me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
Shove me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep
Don't let me get too deep
Don't let me get too deep
Don't let me get too deep
Don't let me get too deep
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what?
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what?
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what you are is?
What I am is what I am
Are you what you are or what?

Songwriters: Edie Arlisa Brickell / Kenneth Neil Withrow / John Bradley Houser / John Walter Bush / Brandon Aly

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 5:24 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
terry:
spam spam spam spam
why do you ask?

Because apparently I have nothing better to do than to scroll down pages of random noise emoticon

Perhaps you could think of it as a meditiation? 

I imagine if enough people complain someone will do something about me.

terry



more random noise/spam:

('I can't help it, I'm a gangster')



from "The Teachings of Rinzai" trans irmgard schloegel


85.a. The master came to Horin who remarked: "As it happens, I want to ask you something, may I?"

The master said: "Why gouge out healthy flesh to make a wound?"

Horin said: "Brilliant shines the moon over the sea casting no shade. Sporting about in it, the fish goes astray."

The master said: "As the moon over the sea casts no shade anyway, how can the playful fish go astray?"

Horin said: "Observing wind, I know waves will blow up; sail boats skim the water with straining sheets."

The master said: "Alone shines the solitary moon, rivers and mountains are quiet. One laugh by itself startles heaven and earth."

Horin said: "Your tongue may brighten heaven and earth, but let's have a word to test it."

The master said: "When you chance upon a swordsman, show him your sword. Do not give your poem to a man who is not a poet."

Horin retired, and the master made this verse of praise:

"The Great Way surpasses all that is,
free to go West or East.
Spark does not fly from flint so fast,
nor lightning flash by."


b. Issan asked Gyosan: " 'Spark does not fly from flint so fast,
nor lightning flash by' — but how did the old masters help people?"

Gyosan asked: "How do you understand it?"

Issan said: "Mere words in explanation, nowise the true meaning."

Gyosan disagreed: "No, not so."

Issan said: "Then how do you understand it?"

Gyosan said: "Officially not a needle can pass. Unofficially carriages go through."

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 7:03 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
curious:
Ni Nurta:
Does this spam have any purpose?

It is a description yearning for awakening, for the ending of the effluents, for liberation.  It may not be consciously obvious, but the subconscious is often smarter than the conscious, and finds a way to communicate.  emoticon 

I love you!

(heart)

Aw shucks terry.  Likewise.  And to prove it, here is a gif of lava draining into a hole.


RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/3/20 7:44 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:
terry:
curious:
Ni Nurta:
Does this spam have any purpose?

It is a description yearning for awakening, for the ending of the effluents, for liberation.  It may not be consciously obvious, but the subconscious is often smarter than the conscious, and finds a way to communicate.  emoticon 

I love you!

(heart)

Aw shucks terry.  Likewise.  And to prove it, here is a gif of lava draining into a hole.



   If only we could get our lava to do that. We like to say, the big island is so many square miles, "and growing."

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 7:59 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Kim Katami:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm glad to hear that you feel better now. 

I don't understand this need (?) to compare paths and argue that some are better/higher than others. What's the purpose of that? 

Hey Linda,

Ha. I think many here don't understand it. There used to be a lot more curiosity and openness about practices here. Now, for several years this has been mostly MCTB-forum, without much discussion about other types of practice and paths, (and even reg. MCTB, the discussion seem to have lost most of the depth).

To compare paths is an age old thing. It's good and healthy. And having said that, arhats aren't buddhas. Actually far from it. I respect folks aiming for arhathood, such as the one Ingram says to have attained. But, if you ask me, there's more, a lot more. I say that with the kind of pragmatic muscle this place used to have.

With love and respect emoticonemoticon

We seem to have different ideas about what openness and curiosity are. I'm trying out different traditions and I'm fascinated but how they intersect and how they differ and how they approach things from different angles. MCTB2 actually recommends some of that (among others he recommends looking into Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche whose teachings come from the Tibetan Bön tradition, and that's something I'm checking out). My former teacher Michael Taft teaches different practices including Mahayana. One of my new favorite dharma teachers is Lama Lena. I just don't see the point in being judgemental about other practices. There's not a one size fits all, is there? Many of your threads start out with something interesting but somehow in the end it often seems to come down to you telling poeple that theravadan practices are inferior. My practice includes but is not restricted to theravadan practices, and I don't see why I would have to choose. I don't choose one discipline in my research, I don't choose one partner in my lovelife, and I have no intention of choosing one path in my practice. Thus this penis length competition seems very unnecessary, if you'll excuse my wording. I'm assuming that you can take that kind of straightforwardness. You don't seem like the type that is easily chocked. If that's a misjudgement on my part, I'm sorry. Love and respect right back at ya. 

Hi Linda,

Thanks for a lovely and constructive comment. Just to be clear about my take on things, I do think hinayana/theravada is inferior and a lesser path than mahayana. However, I do think that hinayana level insights form a necessary foundation for mahayana practice, and whether one practices hinayana/theravada per se, everyone starts from those foundational insights into the selfless nature of mind, or to be more precise selflessness of the I-thought and other thoughts and emotions. For example, when a zen practitioner has her or his first couple of kenshos, what releases is belief in self in the form of I-thought and other thoughts and emotions. It's an age old debate on this forum what really qualifies as insight, or means a path attainment, and I don't wish to get into that again, but in my view, as well as according to teachers such as Trungpa Rinpoche, hinayana level insight is a necessary foundation for mahayana level insight. By all means, I do not mean to be rude to anyone by saying this but I just don't see the same depth, richness and softness of presence in hinayanis/theravadans compared to mahayanis, and more specifically vajrayanis.

I admit that sometimes I probably don't come across very nice or polite but I've tried to stick to the point, rather than get carried away in quarrels. I've received a lot of flack and picking on this forum too. But regardless of the way I've personally been perceived here, I've always had motivation to discuss according to the foundational principles of pragmatic dharma, https://www.dharmaoverground.org/home

John W:

I am curious if you guys have
actually listened to the Buddhist Geeks podcast (Vince Horn's podcast)
or if you just found this one random Youtube video and extrapolated from
there.


I'm still in the middle of listening to the podcast that I linked before in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGA7L1TH1Gc
It's a solid interview that well describes Horn's view of both meditation and drugs.

Steve James:
The peyote
that I took was given by Rupert Encinas, who I mentioned earlier. He's
the man Shinzen Young has studied with with for 2-3 decades. He's legit.
I wish it had an effect but it didn't. There is nothing more I can say
about that. There are other aspects of the same ceremony though that I
felt was totally mickey mouse. I wasn't impressed.

Do you have an idea why the peyote didn't affect you?

Also, did you tell Rupert Encinas that the peyote didn't affect you? And if so, did he offer any explanation?

I have no idea. The effect of alcohol too is very different now that it was before. Maybe I should have taken more of it but having said that I took in powder and drink 4-5 times altogether. I didn't discuss this with Encinas, no.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 8:37 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
 I do not mean to be rude to anyone by saying this but I just don't see the same depth, richness and softness of presence in hinayanis/theravadans compared to mahayanis, and more specifically vajrayanis.

I'm glad to see you're being honest about your views, Kim. It's better to know where someone is coming from that not, and then we can factor that into our evaluation and conversation.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 9:15 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
[quote=]

Hi Linda,

Thanks for a lovely and constructive comment. Just to be clear about my take on things, I do think hinayana/theravada is inferior and a lesser path than mahayana. 





aloha kim,

   I thought I was agreeing with you but now I see that I don't. Hinayana and theravada are not the same thing. Theravada is not an "inferior path" and neither is hinayana. Does it matter if you cross the ocean of samsara in a lesser vehicle or a greater one? A kayak or an ocean liner?

   I agree with nicky that the pali canon has it all worked out in detail and the language is perfectly modern in translation. The early suttas are more clear and to the point than many of the later overthought mahayana scriptures and the ornate and embellished vajrayana polemics.

   Humble means are not "inferior." Theravadans get results.

terry

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 10:40 AM as a reply to terry.
OK, Terry. I think it's better to just leave it at that.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 11:37 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
One of the first principles of crisis communications - when you find yourself in a self-made hole, stop digging!


emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 12:58 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
One of the first principles of crisis communications - when you find yourself in a self-made hole, stop digging!

emoticon

I'd be glad to have that discussion anyday, actually, but not on this forum anymore. I've done it on many occasion before and none of the times it went well. People here aren't willing to consider that the kayak, as Terry put it above, doesn't ever get to the other shore. By "shore", I mean the other shore of buddhahood, anuttara samyak sambodhi. But yeah, no point debating and arguing this point.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 1:07 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I'd be glad to have that discussion anyday, actually, but not on this forum anymore. I've done it on many occasion before and none of the times it went well. People here aren't willing to consider that the kayak, as Terry put it above, doesn't ever get to the other shore. By "shore", I mean the other shore of buddhahood, anuttara samyak sambodhi. But yeah, no point debating and arguing this point.
It never went well and never will.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 1:11 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Perhaps you could think of it as a meditiation?

I do
I also have metal mouse wheel and scrolling is quite pleasant emoticon

I imagine if enough people complain someone will do something about me.

It is not complaint but merely act of noticing and noting my thoughts "aloud"

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 1:15 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I'd be glad to have that discussion anyday, actually, but not on this forum anymore. I've done it on many occasion before and none of the times it went well. People here aren't willing to consider that the kayak, as Terry put it above, doesn't ever get to the other shore.

This is kind of funny, Kim. You walked into the Lion's Den carrying raw meat. You're telling people here on DhO, in the Online Temple of Theravada-based meditation practices, that their choice of path and method is inferior. What did you expect?



RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 1:19 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

People here aren't willing to consider that the kayak, as Terry put it above, doesn't ever get to the other shore. 

Honestly Kim, 'people here aren't willing' looks like a concept constructed within your own mind, rather than the chaotic dependently arisen winds of the DhO. That's fine ... but it is a pointer for you too.  And yes some on the DhO are burning. And others aren't. The DhO is a turbulent place, but I think we can all benefit from the discussion, whether we are 'right' or 'wrong'.

With great love

Malcolm

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 2:43 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I don't mind if people have different opinions about how to reach buddhahood. In fact, I haven't seen anyone who is active here now claim to be a buddha - thankfully, because that would be awkward. emoticon I'm assuming we all agree on that? Otherwise I have completely misunderstood people (which is of course a possibility). Awakening according to MCTB2 focuses on insight which is distinguished from morality work and concentration. That's a stipulative definition, not any ultimate truth. The Buddha's eightfold path includes all three, so of course there is more to buddhahood than MCTB2 insight. I have heard Daniel say that himself in some interview, don't remember which one unfortunately. I think many here would agree that different paths seem to produce different expressions in people who follow them, and depending on what we find important, and depending on what resonates with us, we might choose different paths. That's got to be okay. More upayas to the people!

I have a completely different question for you. Maybe you can help me with something? I'm a really poor visualizer, as I'm not a visual person, and Vajrayana seems to involve lots of visualization. I have been wondering for quite some time if it is possible to focus on other senses than vision for such exercises? Are there any good resources for non-visual people who practice Vajrayana? I'm not sure whether it would resonate with me anyway, but I'm not ruling anything out. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 3:48 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have a completely different question for you. Maybe you can help me with something? I'm a really poor visualizer, as I'm not a visual person, and Vajrayana seems to involve lots of visualization. I have been wondering for quite some time if it is possible to focus on other senses than vision for such exercises? Are there any good resources for non-visual people who practice Vajrayana? I'm not sure whether it would resonate with me anyway, but I'm not ruling anything out. 
I'm not Kim, but if it's helpful I can make a suggestion here anyway?

One option is to use external aids. Often the visualization practices are using devotion to achieve samatha. You unify your mind in one direction - the direction of the Buddha or deity - by deciding to have conviction in them rather than in your own currently-confused state. So if you find it hard to do the visualization, you can begin with a drawn or painted or sculpted representation, or their mantra written out, or whatever symbolic device allows you to devote your entire attention toward one already-awakened direction. You could also bypass the visual route entirely and rely on chanting their mantra. This way you can get the main point of the practice even if you aren't specifically using visualization as the means to get there.

Another option is to focus on energy/subtle-body practices that rely on kinesthetic feeling rather than visual imagination. Here's a fun two-part blog post by Tsoknyi Rinpoche on a good fundamental exercise to do with the subtle-body called jam lung. It's basically just deep breathing with an energy component, but it's very helpful to clear up the crammed, buzzy feeling that lots of mental effort can cause. He describes it as being "like a French press coffee maker, using the movement of breath to gently bring the energy of lung down through the body to below the navel." 
https://tsoknyirinpoche.org/1435/a-very-human-condition-part-one-of-two/
https://tsoknyirinpoche.org/1439/a-very-human-condition-part-two-of-two/

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 4:12 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Many thanks!

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 4:49 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I'd be glad to have that discussion anyday, actually, but not on this forum anymore. I've done it on many occasion before and none of the times it went well. People here aren't willing to consider that the kayak, as Terry put it above, doesn't ever get to the other shore.
This is kind of funny, Kim. You walked into the Lion's Den carrying raw meat. You're telling people here on DhO, in the Online Temple of Theravada-based meditation practices, that their choice of path and method is inferior. What did you expect?



Yeah, well, one would expect pragmatic dharma-people to be pragmatic and follow the actual guidelines that are stated on the front page of this forum... Besides, whether you like it or not, theravada/hinayana is inferior. To see that requires 1) merit/readiness and 2) personal experiences of both lower and higher vehicles. From there arises faith to the teachings of mahayana and vajrayana masters. Overspecialization and rigid views are not helpful.

According to your analogy, yes, I walked into the Lion's Den bringing meat to offer. I didn't offer myself as a meal, but due to irritation many have thought I did and it became personal in a blink of an eye. It's OK. It's been a learning process of many years and many emotional reactions to me too... A lot of water under the bridge but I still keep spinning the same disc, returning to this den of beasts and demons. Why? Because I have faith towards mahayana and meat for you to chew! All beings have buddhanature and some, who have fortunate karma and great merit, can actually tap it. That's good to remember, though we keep forgetting and even if I end up in lions' teeth.

Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I don't mind if people
have different opinions about how to reach buddhahood. In fact, I
haven't seen anyone who is active here now claim to be a buddha -
thankfully, because that would be awkward. emoticon I'm
assuming we all agree on that? Otherwise I have completely
misunderstood people (which is of course a possibility). Awakening
according to MCTB2 focuses on insight which is distinguished from
morality work and concentration. That's a stipulative definition, not
any ultimate truth. The Buddha's eightfold path includes all three, so
of course there is more to buddhahood than MCTB2 insight. I have heard
Daniel say that himself in some interview, don't remember which one
unfortunately. I think many here would agree that different paths seem
to produce different expressions in people who follow them, and
depending on what we find important, and depending on what resonates
with us, we might choose different paths. That's got to be okay. More
upayas to the people!

I have a completely different question for
you. Maybe you can help me with something? I'm a really poor visualizer,
as I'm not a visual person, and Vajrayana seems to involve lots of
visualization. I have been wondering for quite some time if it is
possible to focus on other senses than vision for such exercises? Are
there any good resources for non-visual people who practice Vajrayana?
I'm not sure whether it would resonate with me anyway, but I'm not
ruling anything out. 

There cannot be different opinions of reaching buddhahood. Opinions do not apply to this matter. Individual paths vary but the body of insight/realisation cannot be argued. Buddhahood is reached by establishing oneself in one's buddhanature. One doesn't have to be an attained buddha to understand this. I'm glad you have come across vajrayana and Lama Lena, Linda. She can introduce you. I hope you get many opportunities to receive pointing out by highly and fully realized lamas, and then complete your path.

FYI, not all styles of vajrayana involve a lot of visualization, though some do. I am not a visual person either and have hard time doing complex visualisations. However, when it comes to visualising lustful ladies with bare breasts, all these problems disappear, as if they never were. Ha. That's one clue how to visualize.
Visualization can be done through the sense of touch or by feeling the image, rather than seeing it. Both are valid ways to go from "external" form of practice to "internal" form of practice. External means to use visualizations, mantras and mudras to generate the deity. Internal means to recognise, feel and see the energy of the deity, while continuing or discontinuing the external action. Secret level of tantra is to recognise pristine awareness, which is the same as the deity/syllable. OK?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 6:03 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I meant opinions about how to best conceptualize it. I do believe that there is something there, accessible to (and unseparable from) all of us if we are able to open up to it, that is "unfuckupable" (as Lama Lena says). I have sensed it, once, during an A&P. It was completely innocent, newborn in any given moment, unclouded. Not an entity, but yet divine is the best word for it I can think of.

Many thanks for the advice! I can't visualize that either, not in any convincing way, as I'm not visual when it comes to sex either. It's good to know that other senses are valid too. I appreciate your explanations. I don't know if I'll ever get to meet any Lamas, but thankyou! It would be awsome.

I get that you long for people to aspire to something more than technical brilliance. I think one reason that it gets so personal is that you often mention people by name and criticize them. Maybe it would be received differently if you would focus on the qualities you are seeking rather than what you think others are missing, if you know what I mean?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 11:13 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Chris Marti:
One of the first principles of crisis communications - when you find yourself in a self-made hole, stop digging!

emoticon

I'd be glad to have that discussion anyday, actually, but not on this forum anymore. I've done it on many occasion before and none of the times it went well. People here aren't willing to consider that the kayak, as Terry put it above, doesn't ever get to the other shore. By "shore", I mean the other shore of buddhahood, anuttara samyak sambodhi. But yeah, no point debating and arguing this point.

  
   The buddha did it with a raft he could have carried on his back. Now, me I feature the american crawl.

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 11:15 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
terry:
Perhaps you could think of it as a meditiation?

I do
I also have metal mouse wheel and scrolling is quite pleasant emoticon

I imagine if enough people complain someone will do something about me.

It is not complaint but merely act of noticing and noting my thoughts "aloud"


   If you notice "random noise" you must have a lot to note. (lol)

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/4/20 11:31 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Chris Marti:
I'd be glad to have that discussion anyday, actually, but not on this forum anymore. I've done it on many occasion before and none of the times it went well. People here aren't willing to consider that the kayak, as Terry put it above, doesn't ever get to the other shore.
This is kind of funny, Kim. You walked into the Lion's Den carrying raw meat. You're telling people here on DhO, in the Online Temple of Theravada-based meditation practices, that their choice of path and method is inferior. What did you expect?



Yeah, well, one would expect pragmatic dharma-people to be pragmatic and follow the actual guidelines that are stated on the front page of this forum... Besides, whether you like it or not, theravada/hinayana is inferior. To see that requires 1) merit/readiness and 2) personal experiences of both lower and higher vehicles. From there arises faith to the teachings of mahayana and vajrayana masters. Overspecialization and rigid views are not helpful.

According to your analogy, yes, I walked into the Lion's Den bringing meat to offer. I didn't offer myself as a meal, but due to irritation many have thought I did and it became personal in a blink of an eye. It's OK. It's been a learning process of many years and many emotional reactions to me too... A lot of water under the bridge but I still keep spinning the same disc, returning to this den of beasts and demons. Why? Because I have faith towards mahayana and meat for you to chew! All beings have buddhanature and some, who have fortunate karma and great merit, can actually tap it. That's good to remember, though we keep forgetting and even if I end up in lions' teeth.



aloha kim,

   You claim you can justify the idea that mahayana works and theravada does not. However, though you specifically raised the issue and stood by your assertion, you don't want to discuss it on this forum. 

   I can't imagine how you could conceivably justify such a claim. How do you know what the other shore is even like, let alone who got there and how?

   Hey, I don't take it personally. I just think it is not sporting to raise such a contentious issue and then say we are not mature enough to defend ourselves.
 

terry

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 12:06 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
You claim you can justify the idea that mahayana works and theravada does not. However, though you specifically raised the issue and stood by your assertion, you don't want to discuss it on this forum. 
Predators seek weak (minded) individuals and take actions to separate them from the herd.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 12:09 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
terry:
You claim you can justify the idea that mahayana works and theravada does not. However, though you specifically raised the issue and stood by your assertion, you don't want to discuss it on this forum. 
Predators seek weak (minded) individuals and take actions to separate them from the herd.

What does that have to do with anything?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 12:10 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
If you notice "random noise" you must have a lot to note. (lol)

Noticing random noise is one thing and training your mind to extract useful information from it and consistently create useful experiences out of them is the other.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 12:50 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
What does that have to do with anything?

I sincerely hope you are either joking or want me to point fingers and call names...

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 8:00 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
If you think someone is a predator targetting weak people on this forum, then maybe you should report it to moderators rather than implying it in a thread, as it is a pretty serious accusation.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 7:56 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Yeah, well, one would expect pragmatic dharma-people to be pragmatic and follow the actual guidelines that are stated on the front page of this forum... Besides, whether you like it or not, theravada/hinayana is inferior. To see that requires 1) merit/readiness and 2) personal experiences of both lower and higher vehicles. From there arises faith to the teachings of mahayana and vajrayana masters. Overspecialization and rigid views are not helpful.

Kim, are you aware of how this appears to folks? You seem to have a thin skin when it comes to the responses you get, which makes me wonder why you start these discussions.






RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 9:22 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I meant opinions about how to best conceptualize it. I do believe that there is something there, accessible to (and unseparable from) all of us if we are able to open up to it, that is "unfuckupable" (as Lama Lena says). I have sensed it, once, during an A&P. It was completely innocent, newborn in any given moment, unclouded. Not an entity, but yet divine is the best word for it I can think of.

Many thanks for the advice! I can't visualize that either, not in any convincing way, as I'm not visual when it comes to sex either. It's good to know that other senses are valid too. I appreciate your explanations. I don't know if I'll ever get to meet any Lamas, but thankyou! It would be awsome.

I get that you long for people to aspire to something more than technical brilliance. I think one reason that it gets so personal is that you often mention people by name and criticize them. Maybe it would be received differently if you would focus on the qualities you are seeking rather than what you think others are missing, if you know what I mean?

I like that term, unfuckable, or newborn in any given moment.

Yes, all senses are valid.

I know what you mean and try to do it anonymously whenever it's possible. Thanks.
terry:



aloha kim,

   You claim
you can justify the idea that mahayana works and theravada does not.
However, though you specifically raised the issue and stood by your
assertion, you don't want to discuss it on this forum. 

   I
can't imagine how you could conceivably justify such a claim. How do you
know what the other shore is even like, let alone who got there and
how?

   Hey, I don't take it personally. I just think it is not
sporting to raise such a contentious issue and then say we are not
mature enough to defend ourselves.
 

terry

Terry, you're not listening. I never said hinayana/theravada doesn't work. It works to some extent and like I said it builds a necessary foundation for further insight but the kayak you mentioned doesn't get all the way to the other shore.

You're relatively new to this forum and perhaps you haven't seen my previous messages here. My present reluctance for discussing these same matters are due to 1) I've explained my standpoint in detail before and 2) all I got was shit for it, so I'm not that keen on doing it again. I've also limited time for online chatting.

If you're really interested read both of my books for starters. "Awake! Handbook of Awakening" and "What's Next? On Post-Awakening Practice" can be found from our sangha's website: www.pemakobuddhism.com

If you have questions afterwards you can either email me or post questions here. OK?

Chris Marti:
Yeah,
well, one would expect pragmatic dharma-people to be pragmatic and
follow the actual guidelines that are stated on the front page of this
forum... Besides, whether you like it or not, theravada/hinayana is
inferior. To see that requires 1) merit/readiness and 2) personal
experiences of both lower and higher vehicles. From there arises faith
to the teachings of mahayana and vajrayana masters. Overspecialization
and rigid views are not helpful.
Kim, are you aware of how this appears to folks? You seem to have a thin
skin when it comes to the responses you get, which makes me wonder why
you start these discussions.


What are you implying?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 11:13 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
What are you implying?

You're not talking with people, you're talking at people. You don't actually engage - no one has anything to offer to you in the way of information about this issue.

You're relatively new to this forum and perhaps you haven't seen my previous messages here. My present reluctance for discussing these same matters are due to 1) I've explained my standpoint in detail before and 2) all I got was shit for it, so I'm not that keen on doing it again. I've also limited time for online chatting.

Kim, you do a lot of self-promotion on DhO and that adds to the negative perceptions and responses. People have seen this movie multiple times now. You say that's not what you're doing but to be honest, it's pretty obvious that's what you're doing.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 2:22 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

You're not talking with people, you're talking at people. You don't actually engage - no one has anything to offer to you in the way of information about this issue.

Kim, you do a lot of self-promotion on DhO and that adds to the negative perceptions and responses. People have seen this movie multiple times now. You say that's not what you're doing but to be honest, it's pretty obvious that's what you're doing.

Of course I try to talk with people but there is a huge gap between our worlds and ways. And that gap I have tried to remove, including by posting links to books as you can see directly above. How could I explain myself to Terry for example, who was asking me direct questions about my methods, if not telling about them? Sharing the dharma means to tell/inform people about it. Everyone, myself included, thinks that they have chosen the best path, so they go telling people about it. This whole forum is exactly about that and so are all other forums. That's normal, useful and beneficial but at the same time if all we did was to affirm each other's views and not question or critisize things, we'd plateau.

I understand that few people here are upset at me for critisizing theravada/hinayana and get further upset by me telling about mahayana and vajrayana in general and my own school in particular. I have critisized and proved my criticisms of some aspects of mahayana and vajrayana too, btw, so it's not like I only critisized hinayana/theravada. Despite of how much me or someone else promoted their own paths here, we all make our own choices based on various factors, incl. karma and merit that I mentioned. At the end of the day it doesn't matter that much what someone writes in the internet. It's not that serious but having said that my views are what they are and yours are yours. We both have experiences and views to support our opinions and sometimes we just don't agree. With you Chris, we never seem to agree. That's just how it is and that is OK too.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 2:29 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I suspect we may never agree, Kim. I'm happy with that, too.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 2:39 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
The term was unfuckUPable. If you skip the up part, connotations may be a bit off. emoticon

I'm glad my description "newborn in any given moment" resonates with you. The experience that led to that phrasing meant a lot to me. It took away a huge burden. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 3:22 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I suspect we may never agree, Kim. I'm happy with that, too.

Fantashtic. I'm sure we'd have good chats over beer.

Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
The term was unfuckUPable. If you skip the up part, connotations may be a bit off. emoticon

I'm
glad my description "newborn in any given moment" resonates with you.
The experience that led to that phrasing meant a lot to me. It took away
a huge burden. 

English is not my first language. Unfuckupable doesn't say anything to me. What does it mean?

Tsoknyi Rinpoche's books, like Fearless Simplicity, have loads of good phrases/pointers that work well in English. Classics by big boys such as Longchenpa, Mipham and others are good too but have a more formal expression.

***

To point out the difference between vipashyana practice in different vehicles, here's a good thread from DharmaWheel, esp. Acarya Malcolm Smith's comments: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=33049

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 3:42 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Unfuckupable means that it can't be fucked up, or distorted, or corrupted.
Unfuckable means not attractive enough for sex, I think... English is not my first language either, but Swedish is much closer to English than Finnish. 

Thankyou for the tips! I pasted them into my list of resources to check out. I appreciate it.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 4:14 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
If you think someone is a predator targetting weak people on this forum, then maybe you should report it to moderators rather than implying it in a thread, as it is a pretty serious accusation.
You are right.
Thanks for suggestion.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/5/20 6:13 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I understand that few people here are upset at me for critisizing theravada/hinayana and get further upset by me telling about mahayana and vajrayana in general and my own school in particular. I have critisized and proved my criticisms of some aspects of mahayana and vajrayana too, btw, so it's not like I only critisized hinayana/theravada. Despite of how much me or someone else promoted their own paths here, we all make our own choices based on various factors, incl. karma and merit that I mentioned. At the end of the day it doesn't matter that much what someone writes in the internet. It's not that serious but having said that my views are what they are and yours are yours. We both have experiences and views to support our opinions and sometimes we just don't agree. With you Chris, we never seem to agree. That's just how it is and that is OK too.

People are upset because of your attitude and obvious self-promotion goals of your each and every message, even when you try to make topic seem like you are interrested in some sort of discussion.

Frankly over these few years you are on this site I see absolutely no personal progress in you.
You are the same old snake oil merchant Kim you always were emoticon

BTW. you do not have any rights to criticize Theravada and/or Hinayana

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 6:38 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
There is an air of credulity that surrounds spirituality. It's part of the paradigm. I find it hard to stomach, though, when that good-naturedness is taken advantage of. What's troubling is that it goes on and on and on in a seemingly never-ending pattern. As long as the purveyor is wearing a robe or uses the "correct" language, or claims some affiliation with a tradition, they get the cred. And I get it. It can be difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. Meditative experiences can sound an awful lot like snake oil. I'd ask that people adopt a skeptical view of BOTH meditative experiences and snake oil. That's the safest way forward, and it's what Buddhism teaches - trust your experience, not the stories you hear, no matter who's telling them.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 7:17 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
One more comment: people into spirituality are also very reluctant to call bullshit on anyone. That's another brand of good-naturedness that contributes to this never-ending credulity process. We're supposed to always be nice, right? Except that's not what we need to be all the time. It's okay to express your opinion, your real opinion, heart-felt, skeptical or credulous, and as strongly as you feel is appropriate as long as it's not going to be hurtful. But wait - there's another conundrum! We're so anxious to seem spiritual and nice to everyone that we don't police our own crap very well, and sometimes others suffer, and I mean really suffer, because of that.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 7:32 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I agree about expressing one's opinions even if it doesn't sound nice, if that is needed. I believe in authenticity. I also believe in diversity - which is one of the many reasons that I like this forum a lot. And I believe in complexity. People can be defensive and reactive and have fragile egos and be helpful and sincere about their passion. Just like they can be cynical and snarky and humble and warmhearted and wise. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 7:58 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
That's nice.

emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 8:04 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Well, aren't you a sunshine today. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 8:09 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Why yes, I am!


RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 8:14 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Are you trying to convinve me that you are not humble and warmhearted and nice just to prove your point? emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 1:11 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Meditative experiences can sound an awful lot like snake oil. I'd ask that people adopt a skeptical view of BOTH meditative experiences and snake oil.

What person say he attained is not as important as the reason why these claims are being made.
It is very much like when noticing sensations...

Chris Marti:
That's the safest way forward, and it's what Buddhism teaches - trust your experience, not the stories you hear, no matter who's telling them.

...or practice limitless faith in people and trust the creepy guy who claims he is second coming of Christ and makes creepy posts, even creepier yt videos and his facebook have extremely disturbing photos of him with little children...

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/6/20 2:29 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I didn't check out the whole thread but I would like to add my own two cents on psychedelics. A lot of times I see on youtube channels that discuss things like this, as well as in the comments that they almost put psychedelics in the same league as marijuana which gives it a harmless positive vibe.

In my younger years I've experimented with a lot of stuff. My experience with mushrooms who were legal here at the time have completely kicked my ass. I was in a serious state of delusion, almost having a permanent bad trip. I've faced a lot of hardships and difficult times to get back to a normal state. All I want to say is that please be careful while using these kinds of things. Of course you might have positive results with these substances just like a few friends I know from back then. But just a warning that it can go horribly wrong too.

They also claim marijuana as harmless natural herb. Of course you can't die from it but a serious addiction can cause an increase in introvertism or anxiety. Again, not for everybody of course, but there is a good chance it might affect you negatively.

Anyway, I just wanted to politely warn anyone who is on the verge of trying it with the aim of gaining spiritual experiences. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/7/20 4:35 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:

...or practice limitless faith in people and trust the creepy guy who claims he is second coming of Christ and makes creepy posts, even creepier yt videos and his facebook have extremely disturbing photos of him with little children...


I wouldn’t trust any random person on the street with my apartment keys, but that doesn’t mean that I assume that they are all just waiting for me to drop my keys so that they can rob me. I just don’t give away the keys. Nuances and proportions... good things.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/7/20 6:49 AM as a reply to Buddhamma.
Buddhamma:
I didn't check out the whole thread but I would like to add my own two cents on psychedelics. A lot of times I see on youtube channels that discuss things like this, as well as in the comments that they almost put psychedelics in the same league as marijuana which gives it a harmless positive vibe.

In my younger years I've experimented with a lot of stuff. My experience with mushrooms who were legal here at the time have completely kicked my ass. I was in a serious state of delusion, almost having a permanent bad trip. I've faced a lot of hardships and difficult times to get back to a normal state. All I want to say is that please be careful while using these kinds of things. Of course you might have positive results with these substances just like a few friends I know from back then. But just a warning that it can go horribly wrong too.

They also claim marijuana as harmless natural herb. Of course you can't die from it but a serious addiction can cause an increase in introvertism or anxiety. Again, not for everybody of course, but there is a good chance it might affect you negatively.

Anyway, I just wanted to politely warn anyone who is on the verge of trying it with the aim of gaining spiritual experiences. 

Thankyou for sharing and caring! This warmed my heart. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/7/20 7:31 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I wouldn’t trust any random person on the street with my apartment keys, but that doesn’t mean that I assume that they are all just waiting for me to drop my keys so that they can rob me. I just don’t give away the keys. Nuances and proportions... good things.

I do not assume everyone here is a thief either.

If it it wears white like a sheep, walks like a wolf, smells like a wolf, barks like a wolf, then...
it surely must be a nice fluffy sheep emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/7/20 7:44 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Don't let it into your farm then. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/7/20 8:24 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I'm tired of speaking about people as if they weren't part of the conversation. I prefer to talk with people, even when I'm sceptical. I'm not going to fake hostility just to make someone else happy. I don't need that. And I don't need conspiracy theories to take care of my own boundaries, just as I don't need to worship someone or even look up to them to treat them with respect. So this is directed to Kim. 

Someone - I believe it was Matthew? - mentioned that shamanism without an emptyness framework can lead people to get lost in the content, which I think is a good point. I think that is a risk that can be applied to ideas, rituals, models etc within Buddhism as well, if we mistake it for ultimate truths. I have been warned about that with regard to visions of sacred geometry, and with the PoI maps as well, and I'm grateful for that. I have had experiences related to chakras and dan tiens, and that is meaningful to me, but it isn't any ultimate truth. It is symbolic constructions that may or may not be useful, or useful for specific purposes and to different extents. They are confined by the limitations of my mind. So what is the big difference from non-buddhist shamanism, if I buy into the content of those symbolic constructions? So this is where I'll be straightforward. Quite frankly, I see a similar risk with the reading of energy signatures, such as diagnosing people's degree of awakening from what you see both in person and in pictures. I believe that you see something and that it has some relation to people's awakening, but I'm not buying it as some objective truth. It is confined by the limitations of mind, your mind and the group mind. I don't know how you have rated yourself, but it doesn't matter, because it isn't relevant for me. I wouldn't trust "my" awakening to anyone who believes in their own views to that extent. I can still appreciate advice about some tech or information about Vajrayana, and I can appreciate your passion for what you do, and I can believe that you have students that have found your guidance helpful, and I can wish you well. And my views are of course just views. 

I don't think I'll ever understand why people have to make things so damn complicated. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/7/20 11:55 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Don't let it into your farm then. 

Do not worry
My sheeps attained arhaship and kill theves on the spot emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/7/20 12:09 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
What on earth are you on about...?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/8/20 1:07 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
[quote=Kim Katami

]Terry, you're not listening. I never said hinayana/theravada doesn't work. It works to some extent and like I said it builds a necessary foundation for further insight but the kayak you mentioned doesn't get all the way to the other shore.

You're relatively new to this forum and perhaps you haven't seen my previous messages here. My present reluctance for discussing these same matters are due to 1) I've explained my standpoint in detail before and 2) all I got was shit for it, so I'm not that keen on doing it again. I've also limited time for online chatting.

If you're really interested read both of my books for starters. "Awake! Handbook of Awakening" and "What's Next? On Post-Awakening Practice" can be found from our sangha's website: www.pemakobuddhism.com

If you have questions afterwards you can either email me or post questions here. OK?






aloha kim,

   I guess you are right, I am not hearing what you think you are saying. What I'm hearing is that the mahayana/vajrayana penis is larger than the hinayana/theravada penis, and that a smaller penis can't get anyone pregnant.

   No further questions counselor. The defense rests.

terry

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/8/20 1:16 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
terry:
You claim you can justify the idea that mahayana works and theravada does not. However, though you specifically raised the issue and stood by your assertion, you don't want to discuss it on this forum. 
Predators seek weak (minded) individuals and take actions to separate them from the herd.

   And the herd lets the weak ones go without much notice. The circle of life.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/8/20 1:24 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Chris Marti:

You're not talking with people, you're talking at people. You don't actually engage - no one has anything to offer to you in the way of information about this issue.

Kim, you do a lot of self-promotion on DhO and that adds to the negative perceptions and responses. People have seen this movie multiple times now. You say that's not what you're doing but to be honest, it's pretty obvious that's what you're doing.

Of course I try to talk with people but there is a huge gap between our worlds and ways. And that gap I have tried to remove, including by posting links to books as you can see directly above. How could I explain myself to Terry for example, who was asking me direct questions about my methods, if not telling about them? Sharing the dharma means to tell/inform people about it. Everyone, myself included, thinks that they have chosen the best path, so they go telling people about it. This whole forum is exactly about that and so are all other forums. That's normal, useful and beneficial but at the same time if all we did was to affirm each other's views and not question or critisize things, we'd plateau.

I understand that few people here are upset at me for critisizing theravada/hinayana and get further upset by me telling about mahayana and vajrayana in general and my own school in particular. I have critisized and proved my criticisms of some aspects of mahayana and vajrayana too, btw, so it's not like I only critisized hinayana/theravada. Despite of how much me or someone else promoted their own paths here, we all make our own choices based on various factors, incl. karma and merit that I mentioned. At the end of the day it doesn't matter that much what someone writes in the internet. It's not that serious but having said that my views are what they are and yours are yours. We both have experiences and views to support our opinions and sometimes we just don't agree. With you Chris, we never seem to agree. That's just how it is and that is OK too.

aloha kk,

   Once you have taken it upon yourself to tell spiritually accomplished people what they are doing is hopelessly wrong, they already have learned enough about you not to care what your methods and practices are. You have "poisoned the well." It no longer much matters what you think until you clean the well of pollution.

   "That's just how it is and that is OK too."

   I know I'm just another philistine casting aspersions at you. That's just how it is and that is OK too.

terry




That's just how it is and that is OK too.
That's just how it is and that is OK too.
That's just how it is and that is OK too.
That's just how it is and that is OK too.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/8/20 1:28 PM as a reply to Buddhamma.
Buddhamma:
I didn't check out the whole thread but I would like to add my own two cents on psychedelics. A lot of times I see on youtube channels that discuss things like this, as well as in the comments that they almost put psychedelics in the same league as marijuana which gives it a harmless positive vibe.

In my younger years I've experimented with a lot of stuff. My experience with mushrooms who were legal here at the time have completely kicked my ass. I was in a serious state of delusion, almost having a permanent bad trip. I've faced a lot of hardships and difficult times to get back to a normal state. All I want to say is that please be careful while using these kinds of things. Of course you might have positive results with these substances just like a few friends I know from back then. But just a warning that it can go horribly wrong too.

They also claim marijuana as harmless natural herb. Of course you can't die from it but a serious addiction can cause an increase in introvertism or anxiety. Again, not for everybody of course, but there is a good chance it might affect you negatively.

Anyway, I just wanted to politely warn anyone who is on the verge of trying it with the aim of gaining spiritual experiences. 

thanks dad

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/8/20 1:35 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I agree about expressing one's opinions even if it doesn't sound nice, if that is needed. I believe in authenticity. I also believe in diversity - which is one of the many reasons that I like this forum a lot. And I believe in complexity. People can be defensive and reactive and have fragile egos and be helpful and sincere about their passion. Just like they can be cynical and snarky and humble and warmhearted and wise. 


the 9fold path...

defensive
reactive
fragile
helpful
sincere
passionate
cynical
snarky
humble
& wise

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/8/20 1:41 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I agree about expressing one's opinions even if it doesn't sound nice, if that is needed. I believe in authenticity. I also believe in diversity - which is one of the many reasons that I like this forum a lot. And I believe in complexity. People can be defensive and reactive and have fragile egos and be helpful and sincere about their passion. Just like they can be cynical and snarky and humble and warmhearted and wise. 


the 9fold path...

defensive
reactive
fragile
helpful
sincere
passionate
cynical
snarky
humble
& wise

How did that get missed out of the Suttas? Genius.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/8/20 1:44 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I wouldn’t trust any random person on the street with my apartment keys, but that doesn’t mean that I assume that they are all just waiting for me to drop my keys so that they can rob me. I just don’t give away the keys. Nuances and proportions... good things.

I do not assume everyone here is a thief either.

If it it wears white like a sheep, walks like a wolf, smells like a wolf, barks like a wolf, then...
it surely must be a nice fluffy sheep emoticon

   When sheep and wolves get together and have a discussion over who is going to eat whom for dinner, the sheep are already at a disadvantage.

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 10:19 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I have the personal belief that it is liberating to work on different levels and different domains, to both deepen and broaden one's awakening. Not too much at once, of course, as I have a tendency to do, but in the long run. Exactly in which tradition one does it is of lesser importance, I think, as long as one doesn't confuse the levels and/or the domains. For some it is easier to work from one direction in a given domain, for others it is easier to work from the opposite direction. Another way to go may be to go back and forth between levels, hermeneutically. The same goes for domains. 

Regardless of where one starts, I think there is a risk of skipping some levels or some domains because one beliefs that they are less important. 

I think there's a great risk in assuming hierarchies of levels and domains. 

I don't think there are any shortcuts if one aspires to buddhahood. 

This is the product of a racing mind that has only started to see glimpses, so it could of course be total bullshit, but there are parts of this minds that thinks it has a pretty darn good intuition. Obviously those parts have hubris, but hey... even paranoid people occasionally have stalkers. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 10:23 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I wouldn’t trust any random person on the street with my apartment keys, but that doesn’t mean that I assume that they are all just waiting for me to drop my keys so that they can rob me. I just don’t give away the keys. Nuances and proportions... good things.

I do not assume everyone here is a thief either.

If it it wears white like a sheep, walks like a wolf, smells like a wolf, barks like a wolf, then...
it surely must be a nice fluffy sheep emoticon

   When sheep and wolves get together and have a discussion over who is going to eat whom for dinner, the sheep are already at a disadvantage.

t

That's very true, and that's why it may be a good idea not to let a potential wolf into one's personal domain if one is a sheep. Luckily I am no sheep, and wolves usually avoid talking to me, and this forum isn't my personal domain.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 10:32 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
curious:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I agree about expressing one's opinions even if it doesn't sound nice, if that is needed. I believe in authenticity. I also believe in diversity - which is one of the many reasons that I like this forum a lot. And I believe in complexity. People can be defensive and reactive and have fragile egos and be helpful and sincere about their passion. Just like they can be cynical and snarky and humble and warmhearted and wise. 


the 9fold path...

defensive
reactive
fragile
helpful
sincere
passionate
cynical
snarky
humble
& wise

How did that get missed out of the Suttas? Genius.

Hahahahaha!

I don't agree about the order, though. I think those are two alternative paths that manifest very differently and therefore can't communicate. That's just how it is and that is okay. And none of them is buddhahood.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 11:41 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
... the 9fold path...

Further, here are the seven accolytes that proselytize the 9-stages:

Dopey
Bashful
Grumpy
Sneezy
Sleepy
Happy
Doc

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 1:38 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
... the 9fold path...

Further, here are the seven accolytes that proselytize the 9-stages:

Dopey
Bashful
Grumpy
Sneezy
Sleepy
Happy
Doc

I cycle through all of those, depending on the time of day ...

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 2:15 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Any given day on DhO:




FYI - I'm the one in red on the top - Grumpy.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 2:42 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
emoticon

I feel like all of them babble in my head at the same time, and they either fight each other to reach the speaker or take turns or elect a spokesperson depending on mood and time of the day. I have different names for them, but the principle is the same. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 2:54 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
emoticon

I feel like all of them babble in my head at the same time, and they either fight each other to reach the speaker or take turns or elect a spokesperson depending on mood and time of the day. I have different names for them, but the principle is the same. 


Or rather, the principle is similar, but more bombastic, with archetype gestalts that each have their own complexity and states of being balanced or unbalanced. Several of them have appeared through dreams and then become tools. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 4:09 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Any given day on DhO:




FYI - I'm the one in red on the top - Grumpy.
Bodhisattvas all, guiding us through the realms.



Snow White is Buddha-nature, the poison apple is clinging setting samsara in motion, the witch is Mara, the prince is Buddha who "awakens" Snow White.... this is fun!

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 5:28 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Putting those two images together made it even more fun. I hadn't thought of that, as I'm still not very familiar with the imagery used in traditional buddhism. I bet Chris thought of it, though. It just went straight over my head. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/9/20 5:49 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
By the way, I refer to my Grumpy as "the Hyena". It has saved my ass many times. The name comes from a dream I had in a period of shitstorms on an online forum where I was moderator and co-admin. In the dream, a hyena and a lapdog were playing together in harmony. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 9:42 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

All beings have buddhanature and some, who have fortunate karma and great merit, can actually tap it.

I think that is basically what is happening to ”me”, although me and my merites have very little to do with it. It seems like the whole process is driven by subconscious processes that tap into sambhogakaya and manifest symbolically, and since I have always been fascinated by symbolism, I'm actually starting to understand it. I'm given pointers by something much bigger than the construct of me and yet not separate from me. It's fascinating. I have attention deficit, but the subconscious processes are aware. It's like I'm Dirk Gently, for those who are familiar with that fiction (which also turns out to be a cosmic joke in the end). Just like for Dirk Gently, it often manifests in miraculous and bombastic ways, until the cosmic joke catches up on me. The divine and the ridiculously mundane turns out to be the same thing, and that may seem like a giant anti-climax, but I don't think it is. 


Kim Katami:

Visualization can be done through the sense of touch or by feeling the image, rather than seeing it. Both are valid ways to go from "external" form of practice to "internal" form of practice. External means to use visualizations, mantras and mudras to generate the deity. Internal means to recognise, feel and see the energy of the deity, while continuing or discontinuing the external action. Secret level of tantra is to recognise pristine awareness, which is the same as the deity/syllable. OK?

Yes. Very OK. I gave it a shot, within the Tibetan Bön lineage (Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche), and it works much better than expected. It helps that the root lama Taperitsa is supposedly made of light, sort of, and surrounded by a rainbow circle. Hence every part that is difficult to visualize can just be blurry and shrouded in mist.

The stuff that is supposed to happen during the guru yoga and during the nine breathings of purification corresponds quite well with kinesthetic sensations that I had already developed. It is possible that it has to do with physical processes prompted by the practice and that these rituals give symbolic meaning to them according to the kind of symbolic language that resonates with subconscious processes. It is easy! When I breath out greed, desire and attachment, I can both smell and taste it. The visualizations having to do with centering the energy in the central channel correspond perfectly well with kinesthetic sensations that I have had for a long time, and so forth. These visualizations aren't random. They are phenomenological descriptions of a development that takes place. For the cautious reader I'd like to emphasize that an archetypical guru as the meditation object is not about worshipping but a gentle reminder that we all have buddhanature and that the awakening isn't me or mine. My subconscious seems to appreciate such pointers despite being in reobservation. It seems to be very relieved that something finally speaks its language, and stops obsessing and resisting.

I find that this practice involves all senses. In chanting Tibetan syllables, clear overtones appear automatically. Different syllables are saturated with different dominating overtones. The syllables A, OM and HUNG come out with overtones that match the positions of the chakras they represent, although they are all sung in the same tone. Amazingly refined tech! 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 12:57 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I have the personal belief that it is liberating to work on different levels and different domains, to both deepen and broaden one's awakening. Not too much at once, of course, as I have a tendency to do, but in the long run. Exactly in which tradition one does it is of lesser importance, I think, as long as one doesn't confuse the levels and/or the domains. For some it is easier to work from one direction in a given domain, for others it is easier to work from the opposite direction. Another way to go may be to go back and forth between levels, hermeneutically. The same goes for domains. 

Regardless of where one starts, I think there is a risk of skipping some levels or some domains because one beliefs that they are less important. 

I think there's a great risk in assuming hierarchies of levels and domains. 

I don't think there are any shortcuts if one aspires to buddhahood. 

This is the product of a racing mind that has only started to see glimpses, so it could of course be total bullshit, but there are parts of this minds that thinks it has a pretty darn good intuition. Obviously those parts have hubris, but hey... even paranoid people occasionally have stalkers. 

aloha linda !!!

   Enlightenment is really just a simple trick, a shortcut, an end run. What was your mind before the big bang? In the end, even insight is dropped. Queen sheba tried to bring presents of gold to solomon's court, but she found when she got there that the streets were paved with the stuff.

   All that luminosity is just gas. Reality is truly that hierarchical, just as the liver is made of cells which produces proteins for an endless variety of tasks. But who can maintain mindfulness of that level of detail? Sufficient to know that wherever one looks reality is infinitely complex, utterly orderly, and that is just what we know of it. "It's all too much."

   Insight is like a cloud of high energy gas. If sufficiently intense it coalesces into a sphere whose light-giving power becomes unquenchable. Light/heat energy is emitted in a continuous stream and is never retained for an instant, never stored or reviewed. The flow of insight is never ceases and only broken at intervals by meditation.

   You are the way.

terry





from "the essential rumi," trans barks:



Sheba's Gifts to Solomon


Queen Sheba loads forty mules with gold bricks
as gifts for Solomon. When her envoy and his party
reach the wide plain leading to Solomon’s palace,
they see that the top layer of the entire plain
is pure gold. They travel on gold
for forty days!

       What foolishness to take gold
to Solomon, when the dirt of his land
is gold. You who think to offer
your intelligence, reconsider. The mind
is less than road dust.

The embarrassing commonness they bring only
slows them down. They argue. They discuss
turning back, but they continue,
carrying out the orders of their queen.
Solomon laughs when he sees them unloading
gold bars.

       “When have I asked you
for a sop for my soup? I don’t want gifts
from you. I want you to be ready
for the gifts I give.

You worship a planet that creates gold.
Worship instead the one who creates the universe.
You worship the sun. The sun is only a cook.
Think of a solar eclipse. What if you get attacked
at midnight? Who will help you then?”

These astronomical matters fade.
Another intimacy happens,

a sun at midnight,
with no east, no night or day.

The clearest intelligences faint,
seeing the solar system flickering,
so tiny in that immense lightness.

Drops fall into a vapor, and the vapor explodes
into a galaxy. Half a ray strikes a patch of darkness.
A new sun appears.
       One slight, alchemical gesture,
and saturnine qualities form inside the planet Saturn.
The sensuous eye needs sunlight to see.
Use another eye.
       Vision is luminous.
Sight is igneous, and sun-fire light very dark.




   

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 1:17 PM as a reply to terry.
Yeah, terry.

Mind loves to analyze, scrutinize, measure, and record. It's pretty easy to get lost in that dark forest, all those trees. But that's not the way!

It's too bad Kim isn't around to see this comment (emoticon), but I feel that analysis and recordkeeping is, at the end of the so-called process, a handicap for vipassana practitioners. We spend so much time observing, noting, investigating, watching, paying close attention and, in the pragmatic dharma movement, keeping track, that it's sometimes nearly impossible to let go and allow JUST THIS to reveal itself.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 2:14 PM as a reply to terry.
I'm not talking about analyzing. I'm talking about integrating the waking up with the growing up. We can never sit back and assume that we have grown up already. That's when we spiritually bypass. Those two processes need to interact, and that takes working with the relative stuff as well. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 3:00 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I'm giving up on explaining exactly what I mean for now. Language isn't my language. *sigh*  But unless the two of you, terry and Chris, claim full buddhahood, maybe we can agree that with regard to that, we are all speculating? 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 4:20 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm giving up on explaining exactly what I mean for now. Language isn't my language. *sigh*  But unless the two of you, terry and Chris, claim full buddhahood, maybe we can agree that with regard to that, we are all speculating? 
Full buddhahood is actually pretty easy...
Just notice major flaw in your idea of enlightenment and avoid falling in to it. Instead go straight for the very thing you want and that is it. Even idiot like myself could figure this out emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 4:26 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 4:32 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Someone supposedly started a retreat by saying something like the following. Who was it? Bill Hamilton? Someone else?

- Let's set one thing straight. I'm an asshole. You're an asshole. We are all assholes. Get over it!

This thread feels like it calls for something like that. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/10/20 5:21 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called.

Long time ago I had realization that buddhas differs from non-buddhas in that buddhas invent new dharma and so I did, for years until I invented how to slide on the rainbow and went to the end of it. There was lepricon with the pot of gold that he guarded firmly. He asked me a question "I will give you one gold coin for one completed challenge. Are you up to the task?" and my answer was "I was just at the other end of the rainbow and meet there a lady lepricon..." and about one planck time length later, even before I finished my sentence the lepricon was gone and I could take all the gold, gems, and rare earth metals from the pot I could carry. True story emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/11/20 5:04 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called.

Long time ago I had realization that buddhas differs from non-buddhas in that buddhas invent new dharma and so I did, for years until I invented how to slide on the rainbow and went to the end of it. There was lepricon with the pot of gold that he guarded firmly. He asked me a question "I will give you one gold coin for one completed challenge. Are you up to the task?" and my answer was "I was just at the other end of the rainbow and meet there a lady lepricon..." and about one planck time length later, even before I finished my sentence the lepricon was gone and I could take all the gold, gems, and rare earth metals from the pot I could carry. True story emoticon

Is there a purpose to this spamming? emoticon

Fun story, though.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/11/20 4:22 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Is there a purpose to this spamming? emoticon
Fun story, though.

No purpose other than it just being an occasion to share dharma.

I did practice synesthesia, experiencing colors in the way one normally experience jhanas and pure abodes, so with it rainbow part in the story is true. Everything else in some sense is also true. I think it is best to leave it without explanation though emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/11/20 5:39 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Oh, so that's the invented dharma that would make you a buddha. Gotcha. emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/11/20 7:01 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Oh, so that's the invented dharma that would make you a buddha. Gotcha. emoticon
Actually there are more conditions.
For one this dharma must be any good and lead to what is called in Buddhism "vajralike meditative stabilization"

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 2:52 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Yeah, terry.

Mind loves to analyze, scrutinize, measure, and record. It's pretty easy to get lost in that dark forest, all those trees. But that's not the way!

It's too bad Kim isn't around to see this comment (emoticon), but I feel that analysis and recordkeeping is, at the end of the so-called process, a handicap for vipassana practitioners. We spend so much time observing, noting, investigating, watching, paying close attention and, in the pragmatic dharma movement, keeping track, that it's sometimes nearly impossible to let go and allow JUST THIS to reveal itself.


the remembrance of your kisses veils your presence...

faust could enjoy the power of mephistopheles only as long as he didn't try to hold on to the moment...

"sun face buddha, moon face buddha"

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 3:13 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm not talking about analyzing. I'm talking about integrating the waking up with the growing up. We can never sit back and assume that we have grown up already. That's when we spiritually bypass. Those two processes need to interact, and that takes working with the relative stuff as well. 


don't grow up

stop making sense

let the relative work with itself

spiritually bypass

just wake up

nothing "interacts" as all things are "not two"


the ego will continue to justify itsef as long as you listen to your thought processes whirring along like their noise had a purpose and a value, as they certainly will assure you they do...


and you can trust me, for I'm a cretan, and all cretans are liars...(plus, you are still talking about analyzing, whereas I'm talking about love)...





from "the essential rumi," trans barks:




SOLOMON TO SHEBA

Solomon says to the messengers from Sheba,
“I send you back as messengers to her.

Tell her this refusal of her gift
of gold is better than acceptance,

because with it she can learn what we value.
She loves her throne, but actually it keeps

her from passing through the doorway
that leads to a true majesty.

Tell her, one surrendering bow is sweeter
than a hundred empires, is itself a kingdom.

Be dizzy and wandering like Ibrahim,
who suddenly left everything.

In a narrow well things look backward
from how they are. Stones and metal objects

seem treasure, as broken pottery does
to children pretending to buy and sell.

Tell her, Joseph sat in such a well,
then reached to take the rope that rose

to a new understanding. The alchemy
of a changing life is the only truth.



SHEBA’S HESITATION

Lovers of God, sometimes a door opens,
and a human being becomes a way
for grace to come through.
I see various herbs in the kitchen garden,
each with its own bed, garlic, capers, saffron,
and basil, each watered differently to help it mature.

We keep the delicate ones separate from the turnips,
but there’s room for all in this unseen world, so vast
that the Arabian desert gets lost in it like a single hair

in the ocean. Imagine that you are Sheba
trying to decide whether to go to Solomon!
You’re haggling about how much to pay
for shoeing a donkey, when you could be seated
with one who is always in union with God,
who carries a beautiful garden inside himself.

You could be moving in a circuit without wing,
nourished without eating, sovereign without a throne.
No longer subject to fortune, you could be luck itself,

if you would rise from sleep, leave
the market arguing, and learn that
your own essence is your wealth.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 4:59 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm giving up on explaining exactly what I mean for now. Language isn't my language. *sigh*  But unless the two of you, terry and Chris, claim full buddhahood, maybe we can agree that with regard to that, we are all speculating? 



   Speculators speculate (I lost my speculum somewheres).

   Lovers love.

t


ps if you call this material "speculation" I'd say you're just being stubborn...chris gets it...



Sheba's Throne

When the Queen of Sheba came to Solomon,
she left behind her kingdom and her wealth
the same way lovers leave their reputations.

Her servants meant nothing to her,
less than a rotten onion.

Her palaces and orchards,
so many piles of dung.

She heard the inner meaning of LA! No!
She came to Solomon with nothing, except
her throne! As the writer’s pen becomes

a friend, as the tool the workman uses
day after day becomes deeply familiar, so
her filigreed throne was her one attachment.

I would explain more about this phenomenon,
but it would take too long.

It was a large throne and difficult to transport,
because it couldn’t be taken apart, being as
cunningly put together as the human body.

Solomon saw that her heart was open to him
and that this throne would soon be repulsive
to her. “Let her bring it,” he said. “It will

become a lesson to her like the old shoes
and jacket are to Ayaz. She can look at
that throne and see how far she's come."

In the same way, God keeps the process
of generation constantly before us:
the smooth skin and the semen
and the growing embryo.

When you see a pearl on the bottom,
you reach through the foam and broken sticks
on the surface. When the sun comes up, you forget
about locating the constellation of Scorpio.

When you see the splendor of union,
the attractions of duality seem poignant
and lovely, but much less interesting.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 5:16 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I'm giving up on explaining exactly what I mean for now. Language isn't my language. *sigh*  But unless the two of you, terry and Chris, claim full buddhahood, maybe we can agree that with regard to that, we are all speculating? 
Full buddhahood is actually pretty easy...
Just notice major flaw in your idea of enlightenment and avoid falling in to it. Instead go straight for the very thing you want and that is it. Even idiot like myself could figure this out emoticon

I always could recognize a  fellow cretan...


there's the old sufi joke:

1st religious nut: "God just spoke to me!"
2nd religious nut: "I did no such thing!"


t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 5:21 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called. 


resident woman?


if he man does something, anything, in a forest, and there is no woman around to observe him, is he still wrong?


(smile)


you know, I had a friend once who won a million bucks in the polish lottery...
they're paying him a dollar a year for a million years...


t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 5:26 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Someone supposedly started a retreat by saying something like the following. Who was it? Bill Hamilton? Someone else?

- Let's set one thing straight. I'm an asshole. You're an asshole. We are all assholes. Get over it!

This thread feels like it calls for something like that. 


   Anthony demello said something like that once, only it sounded more like, "I'm ok, you're an asshole." 

   It's not so much whether you're an asshole, but whether you're full of shit.

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 5:28 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called.

Long time ago I had realization that buddhas differs from non-buddhas in that buddhas invent new dharma and so I did, for years until I invented how to slide on the rainbow and went to the end of it. There was lepricon with the pot of gold that he guarded firmly. He asked me a question "I will give you one gold coin for one completed challenge. Are you up to the task?" and my answer was "I was just at the other end of the rainbow and meet there a lady lepricon..." and about one planck time length later, even before I finished my sentence the lepricon was gone and I could take all the gold, gems, and rare earth metals from the pot I could carry. True story emoticon

like fighting fire with fire...

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 5:30 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Is there a purpose to this spamming? emoticon
Fun story, though.

No purpose other than it just being an occasion to share dharma.

I did practice synesthesia, experiencing colors in the way one normally experience jhanas and pure abodes, so with it rainbow part in the story is true. Everything else in some sense is also true. I think it is best to leave it without explanation though emoticon

lol... a true cretan and a man after my own heart, or at least a quick learner...

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/12/20 8:20 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called. 


resident woman?


if he man does something, anything, in a forest, and there is no woman around to observe him, is he still wrong?


(smile)


you know, I had a friend once who won a million bucks in the polish lottery...
they're paying him a dollar a year for a million years...


t


sometimes I literally think I am going to laugh myself to death...I double over, get chest pains, and think, this is it, this is the time I'm really going to die laughing...

perhaps I'm easily amused...

rotfl

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 1:32 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called. 


resident woman?


if he man does something, anything, in a forest, and there is no woman around to observe him, is he still wrong?


(smile)


you know, I had a friend once who won a million bucks in the polish lottery...
they're paying him a dollar a year for a million years...


t

I'm nonbinary. My parents just never knew when they named me. Never bought into gender roles, never realized that I was supposed to limit myself to half the register of human behavior. So I really can't answer that question. It makes no sense at all to me. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 2:06 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called. 


resident woman?


if he man does something, anything, in a forest, and there is no woman around to observe him, is he still wrong?


(smile)


you know, I had a friend once who won a million bucks in the polish lottery...
they're paying him a dollar a year for a million years...


t


sometimes I literally think I am going to laugh myself to death...I double over, get chest pains, and think, this is it, this is the time I'm really going to die laughing...

perhaps I'm easily amused...

rotfl

Yeah, obviously you are... Good for you. I really don't see the fun in gender roles. I think they are tragic, limiting, arbitrary and totally irrelevant most of the times people bring them up. 

But if you want to limit yourself to half of what you could be, hey, who am I to judge. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 2:50 AM as a reply to terry.
By the way, the title resident skeptic, or resident skepticist, or whatever it was called, was coined by Chris, so if you wish to discuss the gender aspects of it, maybe you should ask him. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 8:02 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
... the title resident skeptic, or resident skepticist, or whatever it was called, was coined by Chris, so if you wish to discuss the gender aspects of it, maybe you should ask him. 

Nah, I stole that phrase ... and please don't drag me into arguments. I can do that for myself  emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 8:17 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Right. Sorry, I didn't mean to drag you into anything. I just wanted to point out the irrelevance of assuming that my assumed gender had anything to do with it. I could have just said that I was paraphrasing a male-presenting member. emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 4:06 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called. 


resident woman?


if he man does something, anything, in a forest, and there is no woman around to observe him, is he still wrong?


(smile)


you know, I had a friend once who won a million bucks in the polish lottery...
they're paying him a dollar a year for a million years...


t


sometimes I literally think I am going to laugh myself to death...I double over, get chest pains, and think, this is it, this is the time I'm really going to die laughing...

perhaps I'm easily amused...

rotfl

Yeah, obviously you are... Good for you. I really don't see the fun in gender roles. I think they are tragic, limiting, arbitrary and totally irrelevant most of the times people bring them up. 

But if you want to limit yourself to half of what you could be, hey, who am I to judge. 

   If you want to limit yourself to your opinion, that doesn't limit me to mine.

   I love gender roles, I find femininity intoxicating. And hence dangerous. Like radioactivity. Or nitrous oxide. Girls just wanna have fun.

   In all my relations with women I take the passive role. I make bread every week. I cook and wash dishes. I hug my friends. I serve.

   The polish joke was partially added to acknowledge that I was using stereotypes for the purposes of humor and illustration.

   If you loved me, you'd understand.


terry

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 4:10 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
By the way, the title resident skeptic, or resident skepticist, or whatever it was called, was coined by Chris, so if you wish to discuss the gender aspects of it, maybe you should ask him. 

   I guess you think my jokes aren't funny and are even offensive and demeaning. Perhaps even made at your expense. 

   It's that same old deja vu all over again.

   Once again, I am sorry I mentioned your gender role (your actual gender is obscure to me). I'll make a sincere effort not to let it happen again.


terence

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 4:29 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Terry, I don't mind talking to lots of different people and to animals and other kinds of beings should that be available. I think there is something to learn in any encounter. When it comes to the dharma, my experience so far is that it is complex enough for many different angles and approaches. I'm sure you are familiar with (and remember better than me) the analogy/metaphor about the blind monks who described the same elephant based on what part of it they happened to grab hold of. Similarly, if different people point to the same spot from different angles, they will point in different directions. That doesn't mean that one direction was faulty. It just means that they started out from a different angle. I'm interested in the intersections, as they might enable triangulation. Also, some roads may be more accessible for me than others, based on where "I" started out. I appreciate a teacher who is flexible enough to take this into account and who is also curious enough to explore different approaches just for the fun of it, because otherwise they just won't tolerate my questions anyway. 

the dharma is beyond simple...

it is not an elephant to be grasped by the sighted, let alone the blind...
regardless of how the blind interpret their sensory inputs, they won't know the dharma from them...

I appreciate all my teachers...animals, birds, heretics, women, poles, gender benders, students, teachers, the flexible, the inflexible, the tolerant, the intolerant, those who get my jokes and those who don't...

I find myself wanting to hug someone with corona virus and I can't figure why...

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/13/20 4:32 PM as a reply to terry.
I did understand that. I just still didn't think it was funny. Maybe you could explain what was funny about it?

It wasn't my gender role you were having fun with, because I don't recognize myself in that stereotype at all and I don't see myself as a woman. Nor do I think of men that way. I find people intoxicating. For me gender has little to do with it. I can play with both masculinity and femininity, sure, and I sometimes even enjoy playing a woman, but it isn't me. Never was. I don't have any problem with others enjoying their gender roles, if they find that they have such. It's just not my cup of tea. And if people are assuming that I have one, they are mistaken due to their own limiting view. As simple as that. 

Thanks, I appreciate if you and others would refrain from that particular form of joke about me, and frankly, about any female-presenting member here unless they say otherwise. I don't know if you have noticed, but there aren't that many active women here. Maybe they don't feel like they fit in? I wouldn't know. I usually don't even think about it, but now that you put gender on the agenda, I came to think about it. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/14/20 6:48 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you claiming full buddhahood, Ni Nurta? Okie... Consider me the resident sceptic, or whatever it was called. 


resident woman?


if he man does something, anything, in a forest, and there is no woman around to observe him, is he still wrong?


(smile)


you know, I had a friend once who won a million bucks in the polish lottery...
they're paying him a dollar a year for a million years...


t

I'm nonbinary. My parents just never knew when they named me. Never bought into gender roles, never realized that I was supposed to limit myself to half the register of human behavior. So I really can't answer that question. It makes no sense at all to me. 

what question?


(my parents were conerned about me as a child, because I preferred to play jacks with the girls instead of baseball with the boys...they didn't know I was angling myself to look up their skirts)


t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/15/20 3:15 PM as a reply to terry.
Your question abot men being wrong and so forth. That kind of categorization doesn't make sense to me.

Why are you telling me about how the little boy Terrence crossed the boundaries of little girls? If you're looking for assurance that you are normal, you are looking for it in the wrong place. I don't do normal, and I don't offer absolution. Why are we even talking about this? Just stop, okay?

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/16/20 7:23 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Your question abot men being wrong and so forth. That kind of categorization doesn't make sense to me.

Why are you telling me about how the little boy Terrence crossed the boundaries of little girls? If you're looking for assurance that you are normal, you are looking for it in the wrong place. I don't do normal, and I don't offer absolution. Why are we even talking about this? Just stop, okay?


ok

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/17/20 2:19 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:

I find myself wanting to hug someone with corona virus and I can't figure why...


If it wasn’t so far away, you could hug me. I may have it. It could also be another histamine reaction. Best to be careful anyway, and stay healthy.

Thanks for respecting my boundaries!

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/17/20 4:20 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
I find myself wanting to hug someone with corona virus and I can't figure why...

And I find myself running ozone generator from time to time in my house to obliterate all non-sentient beings...

...but I guess each person have his/her own ways of dealing with this pandemic ;)

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/19/20 2:34 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
terry:
I find myself wanting to hug someone with corona virus and I can't figure why...

And I find myself running ozone generator from time to time in my house to obliterate all non-sentient beings...

...but I guess each person have his/her own ways of dealing with this pandemic ;)


   Catch it early, I say, while there is still room in the hospitals and resources to treat you.

   I'm hugging everyone I can.

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/19/20 2:50 PM as a reply to terry.
Catch it early, I say, while there is still room in the hospitals and resources to treat you.

I've been having this very same thought.


RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/19/20 3:31 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
But how would that help? There would still be insufficient resources, and many would still be left without care. If the outbreak can be spread out more in time, people are more likely to get care. Unless of course if they live in the US and lack insurance. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 1:10 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
I didn't mean to moralize. It's just... it sort of sounds like cutting off a limb and sending it to the hospital for preservation, expecting it to go on by itself. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 1:56 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Catch it early, I say, while there is still room in the hospitals and resources to treat you.

I would rather take my chances of not getting sick at all. But thank you for suggestion emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 7:16 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
As any good meditator will know, thinking and doing are two different things  emoticon

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 7:44 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
It sounded like terry wasn't just thinking about hugging as many as he could, though. But of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that he will get sick or even occupy a hospital bed if he does, and I assume that the main reason for the hugs was something completely different than catching the virus, even if he really does feel like hosting civilizations of viruses out of love for everything that is alive. 

As for my comments, they weren't as much about doing as they probably sounded. The main thing was that the incongruent logic of that line of argument led to unpleasant vedana. And blurting it out felt like doing something about it, which of course is just a trap. 

I don't think that any of you would grasp every opportunity to grab hold of resources before others can get to them. And the thought could probably pop up somewhere in my mind too, but now that it popped up in the thread, other thoughts popped up in my mind.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 3:06 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
But how would that help? There would still be insufficient resources, and many would still be left without care. If the outbreak can be spread out more in time, people are more likely to get care. Unless of course if they live in the US and lack insurance. 

   When I am healthy again, I can help out by putting in iv's full time, as long as I am needed. Couldn't do that sick. Plus, I am confident I am healthy enough to recover quickly.

   One of the good things about a real crisis is americans will drop everything to help each other out. We come out of ourselves in a crisis, once the panicking is over, at any rate. Insurance cards won't matter, and people who think they do will be elbowed aside. 

   Besides, even if europe is toast, we probably won't suffer here. As usual. (toothy grin)

   I can't seem to explain to people that waiting 4 hours on line to buy mass quantities of toilet paper "because the shit's coming down, man" is pointless when a new shipment is coming in in three days, and you have plenty to last until then. People think there are shortages because the shelves are empty for a day, when there is only mindless herd behavior and selfish hoarding. The daily follies become bathetic instead of entertaining.

   My markets have all been canceled so I get to sit in my cabin and extend my meditations, and make objects I have only thought about while routinely restocking my inventory. Catch up on my reading. Catch up on trying to forget.


terry

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 3:12 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
terry:
Catch it early, I say, while there is still room in the hospitals and resources to treat you.

I would rather take my chances of not getting sick at all. But thank you for suggestion emoticon

you can be among the last to receive an iv...probably from a survivor...perhaps a vaccine, eh?

I heard about a guy in germany who had a portable six foot circle that he could wear to make people keep their distance...

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 3:22 PM as a reply to terry.
I get it.

I'm really glad to hear that insurance isn't an issue in a time of crisis. (Well, large scale collective crisis anyway; there are plenty of small scale crises that run into problems with lack of insurance, I have heard.)

That toilet paper hysteria is weird. When I was shopping a while ago, before the shortage, the thought did pop up that maybe I should get some extra toilet paper just in case. Then I immediately realized that's a messed up way of thinking, based on a scarcity approach, that becomes a self-fulfilling profecy. So I thought to myself "That's a really bad idea, because if the majority would suddenly start to hoard toilet paper just in case, then there would be a shortage for everyone who had a more trusting and less selfish approach and bought only what they actually needed. That's not the kind of world I would want." And so I didn't buy any extra toilet paper. And I still have enough of it at home. And if I run out of it, I'll use water and soap. Big deal. 

I feel for those who are ill or at risk, but I thrive in the stillness. 

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 7:31 PM as a reply to terry.
Imho getting lots of suppies is ok if that is properly calculated and the intention staying at home which then is executed properly. I did that, and have enough food and other fundamental necessities to not have to go out for next few weeks.

Right now I have no idea if I am already infected or if anyone out there is. Apparently it does not take very long to get infected and then infect others and at the same time I could be sick and produce viruses like crazy yet have no symptoms. The only valid action to take is to stop all physical contact with outside world.

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/20/20 9:01 PM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Ni Nurta:
Imho getting lots of suppies is ok if that is properly calculated and the intention staying at home which then is executed properly. I did that, and have enough food and other fundamental necessities to not have to go out for next few weeks.

Right now I have no idea if I am already infected or if anyone out there is. Apparently it does not take very long to get infected and then infect others and at the same time I could be sick and produce viruses like crazy yet have no symptoms. The only valid action to take is to stop all physical contact with outside world.

   My elder son has twenty years worth of food stockpiled in his garage. Just add water. Unfortunately he hasn't stocked twenty years worth of water. He says he has more thantwenty years worth of ammunition, though.

t

RE: Why Do Buddhists Turn to Shamanism?
Answer
3/21/20 3:48 AM as a reply to terry.
Gotta have priorities...