First Jhana?

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Brandon Dayton, modified 1 Year ago.

First Jhana?

Posts: 480 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
I posted this on my log, but I'm interested in some diagnosis, so I thought I'd copy it here.

Doing concentration practice today. Concentration was okay, not amazing, but I was def. feeling some pleasent feelings in the midst of it. I was thinking about the instructions from Right Concentration on turning the attention to the piti to get to First Jhana. I was holding off because I kept telling myself my concentration wasn't strong enough yet, but for whatever reason I felt confidence in swithching to the piti and finally made the jump. 

I felt like I was able to stick with it pretty well and I could feel the piti slowly surging as I kept the concentration. At one point, I think I realized that I was mostly focusing on the sukkha (the happy feeling) and tried to and tried to narrow in on the giddiness of the piti. As I did so I could feel it really swell and I had a giant grin break out on my face, which was actually broke my concentration a bit. I was also getting sexually aroused, which was distracting because of the physical senstations but also the confusion about whether or not that should be happenning.

The piti died down and I returned to my breath. When I switch to piti, the breath always feels very soft and pleasent afterwards and my concentration is stronger. So maybe making these jumps to piti is not a bad way to reinforce the concentration. I did a bit of back and forth from breath to piti to wrap up the session. 

Somehow I was able to maintain the concentration while my cat was scratching at the door, but I got up super mindfully, let her in and decided to do a bit of walking meditation with noting.

As promised, the high level of concentration made the vipassana work very clear and sharp. Faces almost seemed to pop out of the the wood grain, and visually everything seemed very crisp, almost like I was on a micro-dose of mushrooms. I slowly walked down to my basement, all of my perceptions feeling super sensitive. I crossed the floor of my basement and on the opposite side of the room. I felt the piti welling again. I returned my attention to the piti and this time it was explosive. I got a huge surge of euphoria that felt orgasmic. In my mind, I'm like "This is it! This is it! First Jhana baby!" It was super energetic and I felt my breathing get fast and shallow and the sexual arousal again. It peaked and then dissipated. 

I think the noveltly of it and being distracted by all of the sensations might have made me lose my concentration, but I was mostly just super excited about it. Not sure if I quite hit First Jhana  (it certainly wasn't stable) and something about it even kind of reminds me of the A&P. Not sure, but it felt like an accomplishment. Maybe, at the very least, more motivation to hit the cushion again.
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1668 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
I posted this on my log, but I'm interested in some diagnosis, so I thought I'd copy it here.

Doing concentration practice today. Concentration was okay, not amazing, but I was def. feeling some pleasent feelings in the midst of it. I was thinking about the instructions from Right Concentration on turning the attention to the piti to get to First Jhana. I was holding off because I kept telling myself my concentration wasn't strong enough yet, but for whatever reason I felt confidence in swithching to the piti and finally made the jump. 

I felt like I was able to stick with it pretty well and I could feel the piti slowly surging as I kept the concentration. At one point, I think I realized that I was mostly focusing on the sukkha (the happy feeling) and tried to and tried to narrow in on the giddiness of the piti. As I did so I could feel it really swell and I had a giant grin break out on my face, which was actually broke my concentration a bit. I was also getting sexually aroused, which was distracting because of the physical senstations but also the confusion about whether or not that should be happenning.

The piti died down and I returned to my breath. When I switch to piti, the breath always feels very soft and pleasent afterwards and my concentration is stronger. So maybe making these jumps to piti is not a bad way to reinforce the concentration. I did a bit of back and forth from breath to piti to wrap up the session. 

Somehow I was able to maintain the concentration while my cat was scratching at the door, but I got up super mindfully, let her in and decided to do a bit of walking meditation with noting.

As promised, the high level of concentration made the vipassana work very clear and sharp. Faces almost seemed to pop out of the the wood grain, and visually everything seemed very crisp, almost like I was on a micro-dose of mushrooms. I slowly walked down to my basement, all of my perceptions feeling super sensitive. I crossed the floor of my basement and on the opposite side of the room. I felt the piti welling again. I returned my attention to the piti and this time it was explosive. I got a huge surge of euphoria that felt orgasmic. In my mind, I'm like "This is it! This is it! First Jhana baby!" It was super energetic and I felt my breathing get fast and shallow and the sexual arousal again. It peaked and then dissipated. 

I think the noveltly of it and being distracted by all of the sensations might have made me lose my concentration, but I was mostly just super excited about it. Not sure if I quite hit First Jhana  (it certainly wasn't stable) and something about it even kind of reminds me of the A&P. Not sure, but it felt like an accomplishment. Maybe, at the very least, more motivation to hit the cushion again.

aloha brandon,

   I don't think you can get into a jhana just walking around. I find that I absolutely have to sit in the accustomed posture to get reliable results. When I sit, the habitual energy of the sitting posture induces meditation states regardless of what state of mind I sat down with.

terry
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Brandon Dayton, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 480 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
Thanks Terry,

Does it matter that I was walking very slowly? emoticon

Maybe just another one of those experiences to file in the WTF section. 
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1668 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
Thanks Terry,

Does it matter that I was walking very slowly? emoticon

Maybe just another one of those experiences to file in the WTF section. 

   Or, "a lonely impulse of delight."

t


"an irish airman foresees his death" 
(w b yeats)

I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above; 
Those that I fight I do not hate, 
Those that I guard I do not love; 
My country is Kiltartan Cross, 
My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor, 
No likely end could bring them loss 
Or leave them happier than before. 
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight, 
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds, 
A lonely impulse of delight 
Drove to this tumult in the clouds; 
I balanced all, brought all to mind, 
The years to come seemed waste of breath, 
A waste of breath the years behind 
In balance with this life, this death.
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Ni Nurta, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 686 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry:

   I don't think you can get into a jhana just walking around. I find that I absolutely have to sit in the accustomed posture to get reliable results. When I sit, the habitual energy of the sitting posture induces meditation states regardless of what state of mind I sat down with.
Jhana is just a state of mind and mind is not singular thing and each of its part can have different states.
The issue preventing people from experiencing these mind states as they are is that any agitation present in their minds cause agitation everywhere because awareness/focus is restless and jumps all around with too much force breaking its own concentration everywhere it lands, especially in places which start to develop jhana. Nothing magical and out of ordinary happens on cushion which allows jhanas except that you wait out your agitated focus by keeping it on object so that it does not break jhana immediately the moment it forms somewhere. Then it can radiate from whenever it formed to your awareness/focus making it less agitated allowing you to actually experience jhana with your awareness.

If your own focus is skillful, meaning it is not agitated and softly land on things you move your attention to, then it is even possible to take your hand and experience its jhanic version . And if you are really trying to overdo it then it is possible to experience one jhana in your left hand and different jhana in the right hand and keep them like this even when using these hands to do something. Though tricks such as these require awareness/focus being in cessation of mind (9th jhana) to really work well. In such case you do not really feel yourself focusing on anything and also no part of your mind feel that mind focuses on it. Of course saying to move awareness/focus to 9th jhana is pretty useless practice advice... at least move it to 1st jhana though emoticon
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 693 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
If it were me, I would switch to noting practice.
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 972 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
I posted this on my log, but I'm interested in some diagnosis, so I thought I'd copy it here.



What you call it and what other people call it are not really important in my opinion. 

If you believe there are certain stages which follow one another in order and you have to get to one before you can get to another and there is some benefit to advancing along that progression, then maybe it is helpful to know what stage you are in.

And it's natural to be curious as to whether you have the same experiences as other people, there is nothign wrong with that.

... But I don't practice that way. I have one stage: Observing the mind. This stage has a beginning but it doesn't have an end.

What is important about an experience like you describe, I think, is what you can do with it. How you can use it to further your understanding of things as they really are.

My suggestion is to consider the feelings you experienced.

Do they help you feel compassion and good will to other people?

How do other people react to you when you feel that way?

Do the feelings help you let go of attachments? I find when I am happy, I don't want anything, so it is easier to let go of attachments. It's not worth getting upset over things if it will interfere with happiness. 

If the feelings diminish in time, watch what happens during that process. Are there things that cause them to diminish? Can you do anything to make the feelings persist?

If you can produce happiness at will what does that tell you about happiness? Is it real or an illusion?

If the experience repeats, notice if it becomes tedious or maintains it's freshness. 

Watch your feelings and learn from them.

There are no right or wrong answers to these questions. You might change your mind at a later date. I am not asking you to reply with answers just to consider them for yourself. Certain answers don't indicated advancement or lack of advancement. They are just something that might help you use the experience to your advantage.

 
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 600 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
Jim Smith:

But I don't practice that way. I have one stage: Observing the mind. This stage has a beginning but it doesn't have an end.
 

This is great stuff. I would only add - learn to discern what is "mind" and what is "MIND", or Sem and Rigpa, or avidya and vidya. A qualified teacher can be very useful in pointing out the nature of mind.
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 972 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
 I'm interested in some diagnosis,




If you focus your attention on it and that causes it to intensify, like there is a feedback loop, the more you focus on it the more intense it becomes - that, in my opinion, is the essence of first jhana.
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1668 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Jim Smith:
Brandon Dayton:
 I'm interested in some diagnosis,




If you focus your attention on it and that causes it to intensify, like there is a feedback loop, the more you focus on it the more intense it becomes - that, in my opinion, is the essence of first jhana.
aloha jim,

   That begs the question: what is the essence of the second jhana? 3rd, 4th?

   Anyone?

terry
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 693 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
terry:
Jim Smith:
Brandon Dayton:
 I'm interested in some diagnosis,




If you focus your attention on it and that causes it to intensify, like there is a feedback loop, the more you focus on it the more intense it becomes - that, in my opinion, is the essence of first jhana.
aloha jim,

   That begs the question: what is the essence of the second jhana? 3rd, 4th?

   Anyone?

terry

I have no clue. This is one of the reasons I dropped claiming attainments.
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1668 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome:
terry:
Jim Smith:
Brandon Dayton:
 I'm interested in some diagnosis,




If you focus your attention on it and that causes it to intensify, like there is a feedback loop, the more you focus on it the more intense it becomes - that, in my opinion, is the essence of first jhana.
aloha jim,

   That begs the question: what is the essence of the second jhana? 3rd, 4th?

   Anyone?

terry

I have no clue. This is one of the reasons I dropped claiming attainments.

aloha sbs,

   Good answer.

   I don't know what an attainment is, either.

   I think I usually find myself in jhana number two because there are no words. And it is perfectly satisfactory.

terry
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Brandon Dayton, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 480 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
@Jim Smith -- Thanks for both the comments. I try to find a balance between using maps as guidance an allowing myself to explore (It seems like we are all individual enough, that this is the only way that really works). I think about it the same way I think about travel. I like to be a mix of a tourist and flanuer. I will look up destinations and plan to visit them, but I will also take some time to wander aimlessly and discover. Of course, there are places where I just won't waste my time with this approach. The intersection between a WalMart and a Chuck-E-Cheese in Anywherseville USA will be less worthy of my time then a side-street in Charlottesville. Maps and the knowledge of others are helpful in those cases.

Knowing that I am somewhere in the vicinity of Jhana territory is emboldening and fun, but I'm still finding lots of room to explore and make discoveries about how my particular mind works.
If you focus your attention on it and that causes it to intensify, like there is a feedback loop, the more you focus on it the more intense it becomes - that, in my opinion, is the essence of first jhana.
That seems to be a pretty good description of what was happenning.

Stirling Campbell
I would only add - learn to discern what is "mind" and what is "MIND", or Sem and Rigpa, or avidya and vidya. A qualified teacher can be very useful in pointing out the nature of mind.
Very curious about this concept. I'll look more into it. Any resources you would recommend?

Terry
That begs the question: what is the essence of the second jhana? 3rd, 4th?

   Anyone?

I could quote from different practioners teaching Jhana on what it entails, but personally I don't have any answer for that. They all seem to have very specific definitions that appear to be consistent. Are they smoking something, or are you saying something else here?

@Ben Sulksy

I've noticed the similarity to the A&P too, but it also matches the description of First Jhana as described by Braisington. Not sure what to make of that.

 
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Milo, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 365 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
terry:
Jim Smith:
Brandon Dayton:
 I'm interested in some diagnosis,




If you focus your attention on it and that causes it to intensify, like there is a feedback loop, the more you focus on it the more intense it becomes - that, in my opinion, is the essence of first jhana.
aloha jim,

   That begs the question: what is the essence of the second jhana? 3rd, 4th?

   Anyone?

terry

You'll see in MCTB2 Daniel claims there are variations in the jhana undertones based on visualization, intention, and depth, but those are all layered over a core progression of overtones that is (Very closely based on my own experience) followed like in the Theravada suttas.

Very briefly based on my own typical experience with Leigh Brasington type methods and with some intermediate states in () I've put here to help anyone troubleshooting:

'Access concentration': all surface narrative thinking stops while focus is resting gently on the breath. There might be some occasional sub-verbal stuff out there in the periphery of awareness but outside the spotlight of your gently unified concentration. The sub verbal stuff can be lessened by 'blipping' in and out of noting mode and noting and releasing the hindrances that are still banging around in your subconscious.

1st jhana -  piti and sukkha rise and fall to varying degrees based on how well you've established your focus, how 'clean' you've gotten your access concentration, and how well you can maintain that intention.

(1.5) - Yo-yoing briefly into 2nd jhana and then back into first, likely because you are trying to grasp at it rather than resting into and releasing into it. There's a balancing act you have to master of gently inclining towards, releasing, and resting in, but not grasping at.

2nd jhana - Boom. Off the cliff and into a positive feedback loop of piti and sukkha, but particularly piti. This is full body and full mind and will pretty much overwhelm/cover up/obliterate your focus on anything other than intention in my experience, even physical pain if you can get to this point. A mindgasm. Note: Leigh B has videos out there of people talking with him while they are allegedly in 2nd jhana, but I personally suspect they are doing a blipping in and out which I associate with what people call lighter jhana.

(2.5) - Intention shifts to letting go of piti. It peels off and you are left with a primary experience of a pleasant afterglow, but you keep getting spikes of piti. These can be kind of unpleasant yet difficult to totally let go. I don't have an especially good trick for dealing with it, just keep at it. Avoiding coffee, overstimulation, and just being generally at peace with your moral behavior before going into the meditation does seem to help.

3rd jhana - lack of piti and a full body / full mind pleasant afterglow. This is much more low key than piti. For me this is the least stable jhana. It's easy to get into oscillating between 2.5, 3, and 3.5, especially if you didn't do thorough setup in dealing with hindrances back in access concentration. A lot of times I've become of aware of problems with my setup here and had to back to access to deal with hindrances I missed.

3.5 - Something hangs and it's not quite possible to let go. Sometimes this manifests as a sharp fear that the mind identifies instinctively with death, possibly accompanied with disturbing images. More commonly, undertones of some or all the dark night themes can be present along with a feeling of mental resistance that is a bit hard to describe.

4th jhana - Finally, the gear shifts in a big way and sukkha is let go of. Sense of self drops dramatically, sense of melding with the surroundings. The peripheral subverbal stuff fades out and what is left of the periphery shifts to sense contacts in a primitive, undifferentiated state. Even that can fade out in a strong session. No pleasure or pain - instead a pervading overtone of unity, tranquility, and balance. Awareness of time is minimal to none. Focus is extreme yet effortless. This jhana feels extremely solid and stable and natural IMO. In contrast to other jhanas, it takes more effort to have an inclination (For example, to exit) than to not have an inclination. If achieved there is not much risk of dropping out or yo-yoing compared to the previous jhanas.


Well that's probably more than you asked for, but the point is the jhanas defintely have identifiable characteristic overtones that match up from practitioner to practitioner emoticon


Edit: I want to emphasize that the jhanas are realistically attainable and repeatable. You just have to develop a few tricks to deal with the trouble spots. They are very useful learning tools, and very helpful to the MCTB2 approach.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 480 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
Milo --

That's very helpful. I just finished Braisington's book, and I've read MCTB2, but its been awhile, so it might be a good idea to review Daniel's take on the Jhanas too.

As an observation, your description seems a bit shifted from how Braisington describes things. For example, how you describe 2nd Jhana sounds like how he describes 1st Jhana. I guess its not super important, as they are all on a continuum, and where you put a number is kind of arbitrary, but how you describe 2nd Jhana is very close to what I experienced.

I've kind of expected for each Jhana to be like crossing some sort of discrete threshold after which everything stablilzes and settles, but it sounds like that's really only true, according to your description, in 4th Jhana, and everything else is more slippery. Is that accurate?

Anwyay, after my session this morning, I think it's clear that I ought to spend more time in access concentration, and start being more thoughtful of hindrances. I kind of just barrelled into my practice and it was pretty sloppy. 
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Milo, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 365 Join Date: 11/13/18 Recent Posts
I believe MCTB2 mentions that which jhanas are most distinct might vary a bit from practitioner to practitioner, and this is N=1. I'd be interested to hear some other reports to add to the dataset. 

For me personally, 2nd and 4th are the most distinct and stable while 3rd is the least and tends to be simultaneously hardest to stabilize and to progress from. What I mean is that if my intention is to go to 3rd jhana there is a tendency to instead wander between 2.5, 3, and 3.5 and it is more difficult to either achieve a stable 3 or move to 4. So the territory of each jhana is very distinct but it can be more or less challenging to stabilize in that territory without oscillating between that and the adjacent jhanas.

As far as my map being shifted from Leigh B's, that may well be the case. For what it's worth, in my reading of the suttas, 1st and 2nd jhanas are mainly differentiated by the need to apply sustained effort to maintain them. I don't think it's terribly important to outcomes if you draw the line a bit differently though.

As you implied, 4th jhana just seems to be a whole other beast and that I think is why it was elaborated on so much with the formless jhanas. It is a territory within the territory.

I do think you will get far by working on your setup and hindrances in access concentration. That has been a goldmine for better jhanas for me and made me appreciate the relation between morality and better concentration as well (Which is not to say you shouldn't be moral anyway, but it does have concentration benefits.

Metta : )
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1668 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Milo:
I believe MCTB2 mentions that which jhanas are most distinct might vary a bit from practitioner to practitioner, and this is N=1. I'd be interested to hear some other reports to add to the dataset. 

For me personally, 2nd and 4th are the most distinct and stable while 3rd is the least and tends to be simultaneously hardest to stabilize and to progress from. What I mean is that if my intention is to go to 3rd jhana there is a tendency to instead wander between 2.5, 3, and 3.5 and it is more difficult to either achieve a stable 3 or move to 4. So the territory of each jhana is very distinct but it can be more or less challenging to stabilize in that territory without oscillating between that and the adjacent jhanas.

As far as my map being shifted from Leigh B's, that may well be the case. For what it's worth, in my reading of the suttas, 1st and 2nd jhanas are mainly differentiated by the need to apply sustained effort to maintain them. I don't think it's terribly important to outcomes if you draw the line a bit differently though.

As you implied, 4th jhana just seems to be a whole other beast and that I think is why it was elaborated on so much with the formless jhanas. It is a territory within the territory.

I do think you will get far by working on your setup and hindrances in access concentration. That has been a goldmine for better jhanas for me and made me appreciate the relation between morality and better concentration as well (Which is not to say you shouldn't be moral anyway, but it does have concentration benefits.

Metta : )

thus have I heard:



from the majjhma nikaya, *Sallekha Sutta; Effacement":
(suttacentral website/goldmine)



The Eight Attainments


“It is possible here, Cunda, that quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement. ’ But it is not these attainments that are called ‘effacement’ in the Noble One’s Discipline: these are called ‘pleasant abidings here and now’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.

“It is possible here that with the stilling of applied and sustained thought, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the second jhāna, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind without applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of concentration. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But…these are called ‘pleasant abidings here and now’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.

“It is possible here that with the fading away as well of rapture, some bhikkhu abides in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, he enters upon and abides in the third jhāna, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful.’ He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But…these are called ‘pleasant abidings here and now’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.

“It is possible here that with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But it is not these attainments that are called ‘effacement’ in the Noble One’s Discipline: these are called ‘pleasant abidings here and now’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.

“It is possible here that with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite,’ some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite space. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But it is not these attainments that are called ‘effacement’ in the Noble One’s Discipline: these are called ‘peaceful abidings’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.

“It is possible here that by completely surmounting the base of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite,’ some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite consciousness. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But…these are called ‘peaceful abidings’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.

“It is possible here that by completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But…these are called ‘peaceful abidings’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.

“It is possible here that by completely surmounting the base of nothingness, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But these attainments are not called ‘effacement’ in the Noble One’s Discipline: these are called ‘peaceful abidings’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.



Effacement

“Now, Cunda, here effacement should be practised by you:

(1) ‘Others will be cruel; we shall not be cruel here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(2) ‘Others will kill living beings; we shall abstain from killing living beings here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(3) ‘Others will take what is not given; we shall abstain from taking what is not given here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(4) ‘Others will be uncelibate; we shall be celibate here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(5) ‘Others will speak falsehood; we shall abstain from false speech here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(6) ‘Others will speak maliciously; we shall abstain from malicious speech here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(7) ‘Others will speak harshly; we shall abstain from harsh speech here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(8) ‘Others will gossip; we shall abstain from gossip here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(9) ‘Others will be covetous; we shall be uncovetous here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(10) ‘Others will have ill will; we shall be without ill will here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(11) ‘Others will be of wrong view; we shall be of right view here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(12) ‘Others will be of wrong intention; we shall be of right intention here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(13) ‘Others will be of wrong speech; we shall be of right speech here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(14) ‘Others will be of wrong action; we shall be of right action here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(15) ‘Others will be of wrong livelihood; we shall be of right livelihood here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(16) ‘Others will be of wrong effort; we shall be of right effort here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(17) ‘Others will be of wrong mindfulness; we shall be of right mindfulness here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(18) ‘Others will be of wrong concentration; we shall be of right concentration here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(19) ‘Others will be of wrong knowledge; we shall be of right knowledge here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(20) ‘Others will be of wrong deliverance; we shall be of right deliverance here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(21) ‘Others will be overcome by sloth and torpor; we shall be free from sloth and torpor here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(22) ‘Others will be restless; we shall not be restless here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(23) ‘Others will be doubters; we shall go beyond doubt here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(24) ‘Others will be angry; we shall not be angry here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(25) ‘Others will be resentful; we shall not be resentful here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(26) ‘Others will be contemptuous; we shall not be contemptuous here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(27) ‘Others will be insolent; we shall not be insolent here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(28) ‘Others will be envious; we shall not be envious here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(29) ‘Others will be avaricious; we shall not be avaricious here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(30) ‘Others will be fraudulent; we shall not be fraudulent here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(31) ‘Others will be deceitful; we shall not be deceitful here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(32) ‘Others will be obstinate; we shall not be obstinate here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(33) ‘Others will be arrogant; we shall not be arrogant here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(34) ‘Others will be difficult to admonish; we shall be easy to admonish here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(35) ‘Others will have bad friends; we shall have good friends here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(36) ‘Others will be negligent; we shall be diligent here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(37) ‘Others will be faithless; we shall be faithful here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(38) ‘Others will be shameless; we shall be shameful here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(39) ‘Others will have no fear of wrongdoing; we shall be afraid of wrongdoing here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(40) ‘Others will be of little learning; we shall be of great learning here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(41) ‘Others will be lazy; we shall be energetic here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(42) ‘Others will be unmindful; we shall be established in mindfulness here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(43) ‘Others will lack wisdom; we shall possess wisdom here’: effacement should be practised thus.
(44) ‘Others will adhere to their own views, hold on to them tenaciously, and relinquish them with difficulty; we shall not adhere to our own views or hold on to them tenaciously, but shall relinquish them easily’: effacement should be practised thus.
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terry, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1668 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Milo:
terry:
Jim Smith:
Brandon Dayton:
 I'm interested in some diagnosis,




If you focus your attention on it and that causes it to intensify, like there is a feedback loop, the more you focus on it the more intense it becomes - that, in my opinion, is the essence of first jhana.
aloha jim,

   That begs the question: what is the essence of the second jhana? 3rd, 4th?

   Anyone?

terry

You'll see in MCTB2 Daniel claims there are variations in the jhana undertones based on visualization, intention, and depth, but those are all layered over a core progression of overtones that is (Very closely based on my own experience) followed like in the Theravada suttas.

Very briefly based on my own typical experience with Leigh Brasington type methods and with some intermediate states in () I've put here to help anyone troubleshooting:

'Access concentration': all surface narrative thinking stops while focus is resting gently on the breath. There might be some occasional sub-verbal stuff out there in the periphery of awareness but outside the spotlight of your gently unified concentration. The sub verbal stuff can be lessened by 'blipping' in and out of noting mode and noting and releasing the hindrances that are still banging around in your subconscious.

1st jhana -  piti and sukkha rise and fall to varying degrees based on how well you've established your focus, how 'clean' you've gotten your access concentration, and how well you can maintain that intention.

(1.5) - Yo-yoing briefly into 2nd jhana and then back into first, likely because you are trying to grasp at it rather than resting into and releasing into it. There's a balancing act you have to master of gently inclining towards, releasing, and resting in, but not grasping at.

2nd jhana - Boom. Off the cliff and into a positive feedback loop of piti and sukkha, but particularly piti. This is full body and full mind and will pretty much overwhelm/cover up/obliterate your focus on anything other than intention in my experience, even physical pain if you can get to this point. A mindgasm. Note: Leigh B has videos out there of people talking with him while they are allegedly in 2nd jhana, but I personally suspect they are doing a blipping in and out which I associate with what people call lighter jhana.

(2.5) - Intention shifts to letting go of piti. It peels off and you are left with a primary experience of a pleasant afterglow, but you keep getting spikes of piti. These can be kind of unpleasant yet difficult to totally let go. I don't have an especially good trick for dealing with it, just keep at it. Avoiding coffee, overstimulation, and just being generally at peace with your moral behavior before going into the meditation does seem to help.

3rd jhana - lack of piti and a full body / full mind pleasant afterglow. This is much more low key than piti. For me this is the least stable jhana. It's easy to get into oscillating between 2.5, 3, and 3.5, especially if you didn't do thorough setup in dealing with hindrances back in access concentration. A lot of times I've become of aware of problems with my setup here and had to back to access to deal with hindrances I missed.

3.5 - Something hangs and it's not quite possible to let go. Sometimes this manifests as a sharp fear that the mind identifies instinctively with death, possibly accompanied with disturbing images. More commonly, undertones of some or all the dark night themes can be present along with a feeling of mental resistance that is a bit hard to describe.

4th jhana - Finally, the gear shifts in a big way and sukkha is let go of. Sense of self drops dramatically, sense of melding with the surroundings. The peripheral subverbal stuff fades out and what is left of the periphery shifts to sense contacts in a primitive, undifferentiated state. Even that can fade out in a strong session. No pleasure or pain - instead a pervading overtone of unity, tranquility, and balance. Awareness of time is minimal to none. Focus is extreme yet effortless. This jhana feels extremely solid and stable and natural IMO. In contrast to other jhanas, it takes more effort to have an inclination (For example, to exit) than to not have an inclination. If achieved there is not much risk of dropping out or yo-yoing compared to the previous jhanas.


Well that's probably more than you asked for, but the point is the jhanas defintely have identifiable characteristic overtones that match up from practitioner to practitioner emoticon


Edit: I want to emphasize that the jhanas are realistically attainable and repeatable. You just have to develop a few tricks to deal with the trouble spots. They are very useful learning tools, and very helpful to the MCTB2 approach.


aloha milo,

   Thank you very much, that is exactly what I asked for. It's a bit analytical for me, since I don't hang out in the "noting" mind much at all, and avoid it when it comes up.

   It tracks pretty well with my experience, though. I hang out in the second and don't have much ambition to progress. I have flickers of the higher ones.

   I agree that these states are common to meditators and relatively obvious with experience. Pinning them down, though, can be like pinning down worms. Thanks again for your effort.

terry
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Milo-

Thank you.
For someone who only just recently became aware of these things this was helpful in trying to piece together what is happening to me.

emoticon
Ben Sulsky, modified 1 Year ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 118 Join Date: 11/5/19 Recent Posts
I find your description closer to what I think of as the 2nd jhana fwiw.  The harmonics with the A&P, the sexual energy, the intense bodily sensations; all seem a lot more 2nd jhana then 1st jhana imo.  
Martin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 294 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Congratulations, Brandon! You certainly got somewhere significant and useful. It certainly sounds like a sutta jhana state as described by Brasington. I had a lot of the borderline sexual arousal at first. That has faded with time. So, in my opinion, it's not something that should not be happening. These are powerful states, and they do their thing. I think the smile is really significant. Spontaneous joy, man! That's the stuff. 

I spoke with a teacher who studied under Brasington, and he told me that the exact number of the jhana is not necessarily very important at first. What is useful is reproducibility. You did it twice. If you can do it again in another sit, you will be away to the races. This teacher also told me that the jhanas are like a territory to be explored. From one, you can get to another. You can find features and landmarks and paths that connect them, which all tend to vary a bit depending on the individual. I also find that their availability varies for me depending on some factors that I can identify and some factors that I cannot. In any case, they rock, and getting access is a wonderful thing. 
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1668 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Martin:
Congratulations, Brandon! You certainly got somewhere significant and useful. It certainly sounds like a sutta jhana state as described by Brasington. I had a lot of the borderline sexual arousal at first. That has faded with time. So, in my opinion, it's not something that should not be happening. These are powerful states, and they do their thing. I think the smile is really significant. Spontaneous joy, man! That's the stuff. 

I spoke with a teacher who studied under Brasington, and he told me that the exact number of the jhana is not necessarily very important at first. What is useful is reproducibility. You did it twice. If you can do it again in another sit, you will be away to the races. This teacher also told me that the jhanas are like a territory to be explored. From one, you can get to another. You can find features and landmarks and paths that connect them, which all tend to vary a bit depending on the individual. I also find that their availability varies for me depending on some factors that I can identify and some factors that I cannot. In any case, they rock, and getting access is a wonderful thing. 



aloha martin.

    I can appreciate that people have enthusiasm (the root word of "enthusiasm" is "theus" so originally refers to god intoxication) for the "inner journey" into unexplored territory, aided by maps, where places of refuge such as numbered jhanas are located and described. I think that frequently this enthusiasm leads in the end to disappointments and dark nights when one gets lost in terra incognita.

   Reifying "inner" states can lead to spiritual materialism: acquiring credentials, merit badges, powers and other spiritual possessions. This is the stage of naming things, navigating, finding one's bearings, and all that ego-reinforcing stuff.

   Eventually all this needs to be abandoned, and the realm of no words and no thought entered. No numbered chambers in the bone vault to hang out in, all is empty. No mind, no person, no dependence on words and letters. No peering about, map in hand; no spiritual tourism, no guiding others to the promised land.

   Nowhere to go that isn't already here. No time to get there when it is always now.

   How can thought describe non-thought? That people are doing this all the time doesn't make it reasonable. Only the individual who is unconditioned can see through the words and discover the ocean. Group think does not apply to the indescribable. And since the indescribable is in fact readily accessible - I think "access concentration" is actually the end of the road, the achievement of the meditater's goal - there is no need for detailed instruction. Whatever social needs such instructing fills often obliterate the original intention and its fruition. One time I ended up at "dharma ocean" while navigating here and what a story that place has. 

   So, just a cautionary note about making an activity of meditation. It is really about just sitting and letting all thoughts go without attending to them. We access what is perfectly empty of numbers and letters, and that is the alpha and omega: beginner's mind and complete, unexcelled enlightenment.

terry





shobogenzo, bendowa (dogen)


“Surely you have heard what Masters have said: ‘It is not that practice and enlightenment do not exist. It is just that they cannot be taken hold of and defiled,’ and ‘The one who clearly sees what the Way is, is the one who practices the Way.’ Understand that you must do your training and practice amidst the realizing of the Way.”
Martin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 294 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Hi, Terry. Thanks for the ideas. That sounds like a nice (non)place to be.

How does being in that place when you are on the cushion impact life off the cushion?
Brian, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 93 Join Date: 1/21/19 Recent Posts
My hand-wavy explanation for the sexual feelings is this: when you finally start doing enough right stuff and not doing enough wrong stuff that the innate extremely wholesome and pleasant feelings start to become apparent and strong, the brain may mis-recognize it as sexual activity because there's little else in its experience to compare it to. But as you gain experience with the innate wholesome feelings, the mind naturally gains the ability to distinguish them from other things. My advice is to watch for tightness/tension which is seemingly a primordial reaction to liking or not liking. In the presence of tension due to liking or not liking, relax (release the tension to whatever degree you can). Easier is better. Whatever you do or whichever direction relieves tension and provides ease, that is a good thing/direction.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 480 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
I'm glad this thread has been revived. Thanks for the additonal thoughts on the subject. The note on the confusion with sexuality is very interesting, and something I've been thinking a lot about lately. I went through a long period of depression where the only highs were from extremes like sex, elicit drugs or jumping into ice water, so adapting to a mind where highs can come from sitting calmly is taking some time to get accustomed to. Many months later, and I am still adjusting.
Martin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 294 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
I'm glad this thread has been revived. Thanks for the additonal thoughts on the subject. The note on the confusion with sexuality is very interesting, and something I've been thinking a lot about lately. I went through a long period of depression where the only highs were from extremes like sex, elicit drugs or jumping into ice water, so adapting to a mind where highs can come from sitting calmly is taking some time to get accustomed to. Many months later, and I am still adjusting.


I wonder why it showed up in Recent Posts. (Ah, mysteries!)

But as this was an old post that I thought was a new post, I get to do the equivalent of time travelling to the future and ask you how it panned out? Were you able to keep accessing the state?
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Brandon Dayton, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 480 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
Not totally sure. There is still a bit of ambiguity for me about what consitutes a proper jhana, but I do commonly have states, even off cushion, that are typified by a sense of mindfulness, quietness of thinking mind, peace and pleasantness (like, I can do it right now with only a slight intention to do so). Not sure if that is a soft jhana experience, but it has become commonplace. I haven't been working on jhanas in particular for a few months now, but I do start all my practice with about 10 - 20 minutes of concentration practice. The particular form of vipassana I am doing also seems to reinforce the concentration. I'm eager to focus more on jhanas at a later date.
Martin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 294 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
I don't think there is a definition that would make everyone happy, which is funny. I'm glad to hear you have access to a quiet, mindful state. If you could bottle that and sell it on the street, there would be a line up around the block. I'm guessing you will have an easy time with the sutta jhanas when you go back to them. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 686 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
The description sounds like 1st jhana.
Relation with sexual pleasure is strong as these mind states are part of sexual act... at least if it is any good emoticon

2nd is enough different in how it feels that there is distinct change. I find 2nd jhana much easier to sustain because it requires no active effort. It kinda sustains itself and is much easier to experience all the time in the background once it is learned. It is actually the same effort that is required to get to 1st and sustain it that is a hindrance in having 2nd jhana. This isn't however an issue after enough practice and these mind states can be done pretty easily and also if the effort is the right effort then all it can do is move jhana from 2nd (or whatever jhana you have) to 1st which isn't end of the world. It is much worst to have agitation which breaks jhana completely.

Jhana can be had while walking and pretty much any activity that doesn't produce stress even if it requires your full attention because they can be had in the background if you know how to keep yourself relaxed enough and mind is actually concentrated on activity and not jump all over the place and disturb them. I would even recommend trying to experience jhana while doing anything, especially passive activities like watching TV and definitely when doing nothing and waiting for something. It is obviously easier to experience jhanas on cushion, especially hard jhanas but imho the whole point of practice is to completely condition yourself out of using non-jhanic mind and experience jhanas at all times. Also considering how much time we actually have to practice off-cushion using most of this time for practice, even if it might not be obvious it is even possible, can bring some amazing results.
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Now, I have a question. 

I'm trying to figure out how to exit jhanas when I want to finish my meditation. Piti doesn't just stop for me and before all this I just thought that " I am now ending my meditation", started wiggling my toes, flexing arms etc to return to ordinary consciousness. But now if I do this I feel somehow slightly out of it in a way that's a bit heavy/sluggish. The first few times I had a bit of a headache but that has gone away.

Piti does of course stop if I move my limbs but if there's a way that doesn't leave me feeling like a doorstop I'd like to hear about it. emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 3928 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Jhana hangover is a thing. Physical activity helps, things that engage the senses help. Otherwise, may as well enjoy it. I once did a long-ish jhana session and then ran some errands. I ran into a neighbor at the dry cleaners and totally ignored her because... jhana hangover. I honestly didn't even notice her standing there.
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Thanks, Chris. Just knowing about it made it easier. Came out of today's session now feeling rather refreshed.
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Ni Nurta, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 686 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Helen Pohl:
Piti does of course stop if I move my limbs but if there's a way that doesn't leave me feeling like a doorstop I'd like to hear about it. emoticon
When your awareness is in jhana and processes that make movement of your limb are in jhana then moving limbs wont throw you out off jhana.

The reason why jhana ends when you move your body is because you learned to move your body with loud mind. If you were reading book in library and when you wanted to walk away you started screaming "standing up! moving forward! right leg forward!i left leg forward!..."... it would kinda break mind states of everyone there you know...

Awareness and control signals do not need be loud to be effective. This is a habit that you picked up when you were very young and was supported by your parents and people you know. Movement of awareness can be relaxed and quiet enough for it to not disturb jhanas. If your awareness is very quiet then you will notice that consciousnesses of each body part if actually separate and sensual processing will work differently with superior presentation and much greater level of details. Details like spatial and temporal resolution but also general presentation.

Instead of ending meditation you should try to remain in meditation and completely condition yourself out of non-jhanic mind. If you do not know how to move your body without this moving breaking your jhana then you should not move and try to figure it out. It wont' be so easy and you will fail and move out of jhana. Even then you should try to figure out how to use body and mind in way that would be supportive to jhanas. After some time you will figure it out, but only if you really think about it a lot. If you wont try to figure it out then it will probably never develop. That is how these things work.
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Thank you, Ni Nurta!

You've given me a lot to ponder here. Will attempt to do it this subtler way this afternoon.
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1145 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Helen,

Welcome to DhO! Are you and others here discussuing traditional first Jhana ala Lee Brashington Right Concentration? Wherre did you first get started with this? I am just wondering because my teacher has me practicing  first Jhana but its not Lee Brashington or extended practice. It's Vipassana First Jhana. 
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Helen Pohl, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Hi, Sam and thank you!

I guess I am, at least. They just sorta started happening to me, on Jul 27 to be exact. I had an experience like nothing iId had before in meditation(strength, duration) and I needed to find out what this was. I knew about jhanas vaguely but since I didn't practice for anything else than relief from anxiety I was not prepared. Brasington's method and his descriptions of what these states feel like resonated with me.
 
I came here while reading a lot of different things because I felt I needed somewhere I could go to ask questions. I've been a lone practitioner since beginning meditation four years ago. 

Not 100% sure what vipassana jhanas mean yet but I've at least come across the term.
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1145 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Helen Pohl:
Hi, Sam and thank you!

I guess I am, at least. They just sorta started happening to me, on Jul 27 to be exact. I had an experience like nothing iId had before in meditation(strength, duration) and I needed to find out what this was. I knew about jhanas vaguely but since I didn't practice for anything else than relief from anxiety I was not prepared. Brasington's method and his descriptions of what these states feel like resonated with me.
 
I came here while reading a lot of different things because I felt I needed somewhere I could go to ask questions. I've been a lone practitioner since beginning meditation four years ago. 

Not 100% sure what vipassana jhanas mean yet but I've at least come across the term.
Thanks for answering my questions. Youu were very fornuate to start having first Jhana experiences all on your own, especially traditional ones.
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David Matte, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 80 Join Date: 8/3/19 Recent Posts
It would seem that whether or not you got first jhana depends on who's interpretation of jhana you're using. Using Leigh's Brasington's model, which is pretty faithful to the suttas, it sounds to me like you hit it. emoticon
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Then maybe I, too have reached these states. Something I never expected. I feel like I've been given something, no doubt precious but

Now what?
Martin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 294 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Helen Pohl:
Then maybe I, too have reached these states. Something I never expected. I feel like I've been given something, no doubt precious but

Now what?
Have you read Right Concentration by Leigh Brasington? 
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Martin:
Helen Pohl:
Then maybe I, too have reached these states. Something I never expected. I feel like I've been given something, no doubt precious but

Now what?
Have you read Right Concentration by Leigh Brasington? 

Not yet, though I would very much like to. emoticon

I have read some of what he's written online on jhanas. Others' articles/posts too. So much is happening now that I feel I need to make sense of.
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 1668 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Helen Pohl:
Martin:
Helen Pohl:
Then maybe I, too have reached these states. Something I never expected. I feel like I've been given something, no doubt precious but

Now what?
Have you read Right Concentration by Leigh Brasington? 

Not yet, though I would very much like to. emoticon

I have read some of what he's written online on jhanas. Others' articles/posts too. So much is happening now that I feel I need to make sense of.


making sense is like digestion
it's visible, material products require elimination
the actual nourishment is invisible

t

ps welcome to the dho sangha
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Your comment feels true, to me.

Starting to post on a new forum can be a little bit like arriving at a party where you don't know anyone emoticon

Thanks for the welcome!
Martin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 294 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Helen,

The book is good because you can go back and read the relevant parts multiple times, but here is a video where he covers most of what is in the book in an hour and 20 minute talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCLT64SLYZk

I'm fairly new here too and I have a similar sense of wanting to be able to make sense of things. I think it is probably doable (making sense of things) but perhaps not with the level of clarity of, say, mathematics or chemistry. It may be more like economics or linguistics.  
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
Martin,
Thanks for the link. It's always good to be able to watch someone rather than just read their words, imho.

I think what I mean by making sense is integrating the experiences I've recently had and deciding what to do with them and where to go next. 
Find my bearings a bit.
Martin, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: First Jhana?

Posts: 294 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Helen Pohl:

I think what I mean by making sense is integrating the experiences I've recently had and deciding what to do with them and where to go next. 
Find my bearings a bit.


That makes sense.